just curious?

[tod evans]

how many folks buy tools with the thought of the tool outliving them?
and how many buy tools just to get a job done?

there`s no hidden meanings here and i`m not asking about electric tools specifically just wondering what the consensus is? if you differentiate your purchases say between hand and power or by price please be specific.

and please for heavens sake don`t turn this into a brand name debate!

for myself, i buy all of my woodworking tools that i don`t consider disposable (blades-n-bits) with the intentions of leaving them to my kids.

thanks, tod

[Jesse Cloud]

Good question Tod. I am retired with no kids, so no one to leave anything to, but my thinking is that I don't want to have to buy this tool again in my lifetime (hopefully a couple more decades). So I buy good reliable, repairable tools. I've pretty much lost interest in cordless tools, cuz you know they will be useless in a few years and I might have to buy another 4 or 5 drills before I'm done - that extension cord doesn't seem to be a problem any more ;^).
Looking forward to seeing how others feel on this. I used to be just the opposite - buy it cheap and throw it away instead of sharpening it...

[David Fried]

I think most will! Since I'm just starting out my purchases have been entry level. When I upgrade I plan on stashing the old stuff away for my son. Of course I won't tell him! ;) I hope someday he will be pleasantly surprised.

[Scott Parks]

I buy for life, the best tool I can buy for my budget, or something with value that I can re-sell and upgrade later. But if it is a one-time project, cheap and disposable. Example, I have a 5.99 holesaw and spade for boring a lock hole in a door. Used it 2x. My neighbor is a door contractor and owns an expensice P-C saw jig and setup that he uses daily...

Although.... When I was learning, I had a 40 year old contractor style saw that I sold for almost what I bought it for. And I came across a 50 year old 4" jointer for $30 to get me by until I could by a bigger unit. That was 6 years ago, and I've never found a need to replace it. Best 30 bucks I've spent.... Same story on my bandsaw. I've dreamed of a MM16, but I picked up a barely used 1992 vintage USA made Delta 14" for $200. After having that, I've decided I don't need a massive bandsaw. So in a nutshell, I've picked up a few quality tools with intention to upgrade. But I've found they serve me well and I'll keep them for a long, long time.....

[Chris Gregory]

I am unashamedly a tool junkie and always try and by the finest tools, to me they are an investment and unless it is a ridiculously large investment that is the route I take for all tools, a perfect example is my PC lock mortising tool, I only really used it on one large door contract but now even for one door it makes installing mortise locksets a doddle.

[Rob Will]

"Go hard or go home"..........everything is overkill but it takes forever.
Given a choice, I really like the HD goods with HD accesories. Seek out every possible design detail. I don't remember ever doing anything to get the job done ----- but that can be a curse in itself.

Rob

[aaron allen]

[quote=tod evans]how many folks buy tools with the thought of the tool outliving them?
and how many buy tools just to get a job done?

Nothing I like more than starting out my Sunday morning with a mortality check-Thanks Tod. :(

I hope my son will finish college and enjoy what he does and stays away from carpentry/woodchucking. He's 8 and I'm 44, I'll be in sawdust long after he's out of school. His junior tools won't take him far. They are already falling short.

I buy very good tools with the intent of making a living as a cabinetmaker/trim carpenter for awhile. I will buy tools to rebuild like my old Rockwell BS and old 24" scroll saw. I buy cheap tools for other trades to get me through the job (masonry, and tiling come to mind)

[J.R. Rutter]

When I went from a hobbiest to making a living with woodworking, I realized that power, accuracy, reliability, etc. were critical. Time spent fiddling or fixing means less $$ at the end of the day. I've steadily upgraded nearly all of my equipment as I had the budget or opportunity:

DeWalt planer --> 5 HP 20" with Byrd head
Delta direct drive TS --> General 350
Grizzly 6" jointer --> General 12"
Grizzly 16" BS --> Yates American 20"
DeWalt Miter saws --> CTD double miter
Performax 22-44 --> Extrema 36" double drum (future widebelt)
Powermatic shapers (would love an SCMI!)
2 HP Oneida --> 10 HP cyclone

[Andy Hoyt]

To me, the first thought I give to the notion is how often I'll use the tool. If it's daily (or close to it) I'll buy the best quality I can afford.

It's the occasional use tools that present the bigger challenge. For these, I guess it's somewhere above entry level quality.

It's it's a known one-time-use item, I'll get the least expensive tool that will do the job. I try to avoid this.

Knowing how much I can afford is a tough one in itself. Kinda like hitting a moving target with your eyes closed.

Equally tough is the lesson learned after your decision is made and circumstances change. This can be good or bad.

[JayStPeter]

I buy based on the tools value to me. There's a LOT of tools to buy and not as much money as I'd like dedicated to it. So, I have to buy on value and compromise.
If it's a major tool that I plan on using the heck out of, I'll get the best I can reasonably afford. My Unisaw would be an example of this.
Some tools I know I'll use for parts of some projects, so I buy something that'll get me by without breaking the bank. My BOSS sander for example.
I will buy some tools for a specific project and if I'm able to use them again, great. In this case, I buy the least expensive tool that'll get that job done. I bought a $89 tile saw for remodeling a bathroom.
One thing I know for sure about myself is that I'm a toolaholic. I don't know if there's any tool I've bought that will be the last I'll ever buy and leave to my kids. So, one thought that goes into my major purchases is buying a brand and model that is going to be reasonably easy to sell and will have a decent resale relative to what I paid. It's not always a top priority, but it's part of the equation for my personal definition of good value.

Jay

[Ellen Benkin]

Since I love buying old tools (especially hand tools) many of the ones I have have already survived someone's demise. I assume most, if not all, of mine will also survive me.

I don't find this disturbing at all. Having tools and equipment that are well made and do the job they are designed to do is a great pleasure. In fact, I'd love to find a car that I could imagine surviving me!

[Richard Neel]

This is a great question and one I've been pondering for a while. I'm not sure how "normal" I am but I definately consider myself a serious hobbiest. I have some low-end tools and some high-end tools. I have no aspirations to do this for a living. However, I always feel the desire to buy the best quality tools whenever I make a purchase but I do try to weigh this against how much I use it.

For example, many consider a table saw the cornerstone of the workshop. My tablesaw runs for maybe 30 minutes a week (hard to estimate this isn't it?). I'm sure saws in production shops run hours each day. I find it hard to justify a $2000+ TS (I still WANT one though).

So here we have the dilemma of longevity vs. quality/accuracy. It seems you can't have one without the other. Now remember, I'm a "serious" (hehe) hobbiest so I want that quality/accuracy! What is one to do?! Like so many other things in life, everything comes down to a question of balance doesn't it?

It is interesting that I seem to buy high-quality hand tools and go for the cheaper stuff when it comes to the stationary tools. Is there a neander in me trying to get out!?

[Jim O'Dell]

I'll buy what I can afford at the time. I want to buy good quality tools that I won't have to replace. I'll wait and save for a while to get what I want as long as I have something now to do the projects I need to do. (ie I have a Ridgid TS that works perfectly fine, but I have my eye out for a cabinet model.) If I think I need a tool that I've never owned or used before, I'll get something less expensive that is an entry level unit that will work nicely.(Delta 52-580 planer) Then if I see later that I use it a lot, then I can look at upgrading to a stationary unit that is a little bigger/better. But I refuse to buy the really cheap stuff after a 4" angle grinder that had to cost my Dad every bit of $10.00 :rolleyes: caught fire in my hand while I was on a 6' ladder sanding the eaves for painting. It worked for all of about 20' of eaves. The Ridgid, while not top of the line, did the rest of the house, two gable ends, and said what's next. Jim.

[Lee DeRaud]

Given a choice, I really like the HD goods with HD accesories."HD" as in "Home Depot", or "HD" as in "Harley Davidson"? Makes a difference, you know.:eek: :cool: :p

(Now there's a "brand-name debate" just waiting to happen...)

[Matt Warfield]

My tendency is to buy better than I can afford. I also keep it in check at times - no need to buy a 700 drill if I can rent it for the job for $20. I also try to pick up the cheaper/auction buys of a tool I know I'll use infrequently or not sure if it will really aid in my enjoyment. If that shows promise, I drop enough cash on a replacement to make the LOML's fillings fall out.

BTW, the LOML received nothing but tools for x-mas this year followed by the question "So, what are you going to make me first?"

Matt

[Bob Noles]

Tod,

I am purely a hobbiest and have adapted a rule of thumb that works well for me. I stay firmly in the middle of the road... plain and simple. That is not to say I haven't made a few exceptions in both directions on certain items :D

I figure by staying on the fence, I can always upgrade if I find it necessary after learning the tool and/or wearing it out, but if not necessary, I have saved money on those items that I did not over spend on.

Simple formula... every one's mileage may vary.

[Bob Dodge]

Hi Tod,

That is an excellant question. Like Jesse above, I have no kids either. I buy tools that do a good job at what they're designed to do. Over the last 30 years or so, I've owned quite a range of tool qualities. I've learned the hardway, that buying by price, is NOT the way to go. I probably still have some of those "bargains' laying around somewhere, but they're just too darned frustrating to use. When I want to cut a piece of wood on a table-saw, I want to simply do that cut, not adjust the saw trunnions for 2 hours.

Most of my corded tools, are Porter-Cable or Makita, and I'm pretty happy with those that I have. I'll probably spring for a Lamello biscuit-joiner sometime this year, and if I'm lucky, a Kremlin spray system. Both are expensive, but a joy to use. Mind you, when I shop for those, I'll look for a good price, but THAT'S the tool I want. I guess it's the reliability and useability that determines my choice.

I started revamping all my old handtools over the last while. I used to think that anyone who payed $300. for a handplane, had to be nuts. Well, book me a room at the "looney-farm", 'cause I now have 15 or 16 Lie-Nielsen planes and saws, and I wonder how I ever got along without them. I can now honestly say that I find the L-N #5 1/2 to be "bargain-priced" considering the quality/performance of that tool. Same for the #4 1/2, etc.

I guess the best way for me to express it, is that using a quality tool makes the job quicker, the results more predictable/reliable, and a more pleasant experience to work with. To me, those are the most important characteristics. I find I take better care of those tools as well. I trust them, and I rely on them. They never let me down.

Bob

[Dev Emch]

I dont think about it persay; however, the old dirty paper on oliver often mentioned that the machines were designed for a 100 years.

This is not far from the truth. Many olivers are now on their second, third and fourth owners.

So when it comes to olivers, the question is this... How many owners has this machine had (could read survived)?

You cannot say that about an import. In that case, "The question is How many machines has the owner had?"

Happy Oliverisms and just remember... "Every User A Booster".

[Jim Becker]

I do not buy my tools with the thought of them outliving me. That said, I do buy them with the thought of them living as long as I do...the most expensive tools are the ones you need to replace early and often...so I buy the best quality products I can afford. I'd rather save up for an extra few months to get what I really want than have to make a repeat purchase in the future.

[Dave Falkenstein]

On my first round of tools I bought almost exclusively Craftsman, back when they made some decent power tools. Now I'm retired and do more woodworking. Now I can more easily afford better tools. Now I buy pretty high quality tools, and have replaced all of my Craftsman power tools except for a belt sander, which is on my list for an upgrade. I still have a red rolling box of Craftsman hand tools - wrenches, sockets, etc - that will be with me unitl I no longer can use them. I learned the hard way that buying based on price almost always leads to another purchase later on. I fully expect the tools I now have to last me for the remainder of my woodowrking days, and then to benefit someone else for quite a few years. Besides, I like to collect quality tools.

[Vaughn McMillan]

Good thread, Tod. I'm slowly but surely learning the bit about buying good tools once instead of buying cheap ones several times, even though I've seen it proven to be the way to go numerous times thoughout my life. Since I'm a hobbyist on a budget, I can't justify the the very best of everything, but I do try to buy better than the very cheapest. I research my purchases now (to the extent that I can) to be sure that even though I'm not getting the best, it's substantially good, and hopefully the best available in its price range.

I do have several tools that I purchased with the intent of replacing them at a later time, after my skills and needs have surpassed the ability of the tool to deliver. My contractor-style TS is a good example. By my research, it was the best bang for the amount of bucks available to me at the time, and I know I'll get that money's worth out of it before I upgrade to a cabinet-style saw in the future.

- Vaughn

[John Bailey]

When I first started making mountain dulcimers 25 yrs. ago, I did it all by hand and bought used Stanley-Bailey planes. I did have an old, very cheap, and very dangerous 8" or 9" J.C. Penney's table saw that I resawed boards to about 1/4", then sanded them, by hand, down to 1/8 to 1/10 in. I still have the planes, the saw was out the door as soon as I could get something else. When I started to remoldel my 150 yr. old house, I bought a Sears RAS, jig saw, and circular saw. Until this year, I never bought anything else. This year, while building my shop, my RAS and circular saw died, and the jigsaw is gonna' be replaced because I just don't like using it anymore. I replaced the RAS with a DeWalt RAS that was twice the age of the Sears, and it works like a dream. That buy changed my mind about buying quality. I've now saved for almost a year for a new bandsaw, and I'm not buying till I have enough money to buy what I think is the right saw. I wish I had bought some tools when I was making a lot of money, before I decided on early retirement and a simple life style. But, I've got lots of time now, a great, albeit old, RAS, a good Makita circular saw, and some pretty good planes that keep me working. I don't have a lot of money now, but I'll be buying the best I can and planning on them outlasting me.

Sorry for the long windedness.

John

[Jesse Cloud]

A few years ago a woodworker friend of mine passed away. His widow asked me to select the best wood in his shop and make a box for his ashes. He had some fine birdseye maple and some ebony I used for trim and it came out pretty good. I'm sure it never occurred to him when he bought the wood how it might be used. I guess the morale of the story is to make good choices and always do your best as that wood or that project may live longer than you do.

[Per Swenson]

Good question,

It never crossed my mind.

Of course this is part Peter Pan thinking

and part mercantile. I buy a tool to do a specific job

and figure how long before that tool turns a profit.

But by getting the most for my money, I also end up with

quality and longevity. Do I say to my son, Hunter someday this will

all be yours? No. Simply because someday never comes.

Per

[Jim Hager]

Well, since I use tools my Grandpa, Dad and Father-in-law left to me I feel it is my obligation to pass them on to my son and soon to be son-in-law for them to pass on to their kids and on and on down the line.

I buy my tools with it in mind that they will outlast me.

[Rob Will]

"HD" as in "Home Depot", or "HD" as in "Harley Davidson"? Makes a difference, you know.:eek: :cool: :p

(Now there's a "brand-name debate" just waiting to happen...)

Too bad Caterpillar does not make WW machines......I guess I'll have to settle for the Harley. Hmmm......

Speaking of branding, Lee may be on to something......everything else these days has a Harley brand on it, so I don't see why not......
everything plated!

Shiraz, are you listening? Big Mac would look good with a shiny new bike!
I once saw a bear ride a motorcycle.

Rob

[Lee DeRaud]

I once saw a bear ride a motorcycle.And lord knows I've seen enough guys on Harleys that looked like grizzlies...:eek:

[Steve Clardy]

I buy the best I can afford at the time, and try to see a future use in whatever I'm buying.
Most of my hand tools, machinery has been that way.
If I see it will pay for itself in the long run, I have no problem buying or replacing something.

[john mclane]

I have two boys, late teen and early 20s, that are getting interested in different crafts including ww. My older son has become a very good exotic indoor gardener and has now made himself several small wooden drums. (He did an excellent job at figuring out the complex angles when he modified a plan). Since he lives in an apartment I gave him for Christmas some excellent chip chisels and book to get him started in chip carving. My 18 year has started to make his own skim boards and snow boards starting with core material and fiberglass laminating. I got him for Christmas a good vacuum pump and accessories. He had to build a forming frame, which he and I did over the Christmas period while he was home for Christmas.

Many of the things such as toy chests and boxes I made them over the years, and many of the stuff I have made my wife over the years will be part of their heritage. So I do think that some of the handtools, and maybe some of the better bigger electical/mechanical tools, will be available for them if they want them. I'm still 10-15 years from retirement and this is a hobby for me so right now I only buy tools that I will use and of a level of quality I will appreciate. I may never have a $300 plane but the one I do have will have my patina on it.

[Chris Fite]

Subject to interpretation, I try to buy a really good tool that won't leave me high and dry later on. I dislike having to tweak something from time to time in order for it to work as it should. In my mind, a good tool performs well and reliably, therefore being worth its price.

There have been times that I wished that something weren't so expensive, but never felt that it was too good for its purpose. If I perceive that the next level of quality is at the next level of price, I generally move up. After having built two ten foot tall frame and panel church doors in Jamaica using a 7-1/4 inch circular saw, a jack plane, and a 1/4" chisel after Hurricane Gilbert, I have thoroughly appreciated the proper tools for a job.

"The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the pleasure of low price has been forgotten." - Thomas Ruskin


It is frustrating using a poor quality tool to do good work.

As far a longevity is concerned, what I build will probably last longer than what I used to build it. I had never thought about how long the tools might last.

[Tyler Howell]

Never looked at it that way. It's more can I justify the investment , not so much from a cost angle but more. I'll never use it enough in my life time. Clearly the new influx of toyls are built to last.;)

[Travis Porter]

I seem to go both ways. If it is something that I know will be used a lot, I will buy the best that I am aware of, otherwise I buy disposable. I have recently learned, the best may be only that you are aware of at the time. For example, 10 years ago, I thought Record handplanes were the best, and I couldn't get the thing to work to save my life. Over the past 2 years I have learned that you can tune them up and make them work better, but I still would rather buy a Lie Nielsen (which isn't necessarily the very best) than a Record or otherwise.

Although I would like to leave my tools to my children, I don't think it is going to happen being that I have a 3 yr old daughter and another daughter due in a month. I would like them to get into the hobby, but I don't count on it.

Regardless, if I know it is a tool that is going to be used, I will buy the best. If I am unsure of the amount of use, I will start cheap and upgrade to the best once I know better.

[Bill Lewis]

I'm with a few others on this, I buy the best tool I can resonably justify buying. Most of my tools I am sure will outlive me. I often think about how great it would be to attend the tool auction that my wife will one day be able to have.

Now I also have to say that "resonable justification" to me may mean somthing entirely different to someone else. I've got a good income, and my wife and I don't have any children so I can afford to buy pretty good stuff. However space is still a limitation that has to be respected. There's no room in my shop for a big belt sander or a CVN-20" jointer.

I was just thinking the other day about how much I am still more of a framer, remodeler, electrician, plumber, tile guy, and DIY'r I am than an experienced wood worker. It's what got me in to WW'ing in the first place.

My neighbor who owns a very successful plumbing and heating business was over the other day and just shook his head at the tools (number and quality) that I am using on my current basement bath project. I've heard it before, about how I have more, and better tools than most contractors have. But to me, my tools are my best subcontractors, they do exactly as they are told, and a better job than anyone else out there, and as costly as they are, they're also the lowest bidder.

[Shelley Bolster]

Although I would like to leave my tools to my children, I don't think it is going to happen being that I have a 3 yr old daughter and another daughter due in a month. I would like them to get into the hobby, but I don't count on it.

Hey Travis, don't count on it. That is just not coming from a woman woodworker but the parent of two girls and one boy. None of my kids showed any interest in woodworking whatsoever....until of course it came to making out their "Mommy-Do-Lists".......until the last couple of years when my my oldest daughter, 26 and very much a "lady" decided to restore an old heritage home with her husband. She started working on a few projects with me and really took to it......I don't know if she will want my tools when I no longer have any need for them but who knows what will happen down the road. Believe me, if you had told me when I was younger that one day I would have a passion for woodworking, I would have asked what you had been smoking. :eek:



HD" as in "Home Depot", or "HD" as in "Harley Davidson"? Makes a difference, you know.:eek: :cool: :p

(Now there's a "brand-name debate" just waiting to happen...)


Oh goody Lee, another brand-name debate........Let me get the ball rolling.

Harley Davidson is sexy.......Home Depot is not. :cool: :p

Actually Tod, to answer your question, I never buy any tools with the main objective to leave it to my kids.......if they want something after I die and it still runs, so be it. I am however bit by bit upgrading some of the tools I first got years ago when building our house, this time with longevity a top priority........for the big fellas anyways. Course my idea and your idea of tools are miles apart I am afraid - you are definitely in the industrial grade - I am in the high-end hobbyist I guess you would say. Not that I wouldn't want your shop - ha, are you kidding?? But reality in the form of lack of funds makes most of your tools out of reach for my budget. Now, if I were say in my twenties and knew that I was in fact going to try to scratch out a living doing this, then ya....industrial would make since but seeing I am pushing Fifty, I have to be realistic about how many productive years a have ahead of me. Sure, in a larger community resale of industrial tools would probably see me getting almost what I paid for them but in a real small town - forget it. I do want preformance and I have yet to find the lower cost tool that can deliver it.....I also do not like "playing" with tools......I am not into monkey-wrenching or modifying. I wanna turn it on and have it work - period, so once again, higher end fits the bill. For a once in a while job (such as roofing) rental is the ticket!

[Chris Dodge]

I try to buy tools that will last a lifetime. I do a lot of research to find out what the magazines picked and then I ask on forums and ask my woodworking friends how they like theirs. The only tool I have ever had to replace was a cordless drill and those only last about 10 years anyway, which is about how long mine lasted.