Help me spend my money

[Jake Elkins]

Scholars of Sawmill Creek - I am hoping to get some opinions on "what would you do" from those more knowledgeable than I:

Background: Been a hobby woodworker on a budget for 20 years. Have a well-equipped shop, but with limitations (ex: 6 in Jet Jointer, 13 inch lunchbox planer, 14" PM bandsaw, 10" Jet Tablesaw, a few RAS, etc). I have been venturing more toward the neanderthal end of the pool for a while, but still enjoy power tools. My biggest limitation in what I try to do has always been the jointer. I've made it work, but I have been planning for 15 years to upgrade once I got my first real job. Which I have recently done (yes, took 15 years). So, #1 item on my to-get list is a big jointer. I finally have the space (30x80), power (but no three phase, and naive about conversion), funds. So help me spend my money. Budget ~ 12k. With projections to have a decent yearly budget moving forward. But I want a jointer first

Options:
1. Felder 741 + bells/whistles (spiral head, power drive height adjustment). Pros - obvious. Cons - somewhat shorter table, not completely sold on combo machine etc etc. Despite (barely) being within budget, it is a big chunk of $. Oh, and a 40+ week waitlist.
2. Grizzly: I can pickup a 16" jointer with spiral head for 7k (this (https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-16-x-99-z-series-jointer-w-spiral-cutterhead/g9953zx)), and a 20" planer with spiral head (something like this (https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-20-5-hp-helical-cutterhead-planer/g1033x)) and be under budget and add more capability. Pros: Separates, more capability, probably? sooner delivery. Cons: Perhaps less quality, but this ain't a production shop. Takes more floor space, but not really an issue.
3. Something like a Hammer A3-41, and take the savings and buy something like this (https://www.felder-group.com/en-us/products/bandsaws-c1958/bandsaw-fb-640-p2969).
4. Something else???

I would appreciate any and all thoughts. Curious to what you say. Thanks.

[Robyn Horton]

Jake One of my recent purchases was a Hammer A3-31 and could not be any Happier. It does have the Spiral Head and mobility kit. The finish of the wood coming from it are the Best .. 100 % Flat from the jointer and from the planer with no snipe. My recent buy was the Hammer K3 winner Comfort with the 79" travel slider and 31" fence. I would get the A3-41 and the Band saw in your link for sure .. Keep us posted on what you are going with

[Mick Simon]

Jake,
I completely agree with Robyn's comments. I have the A3-41 and a close friend has the 741. I've used his and I've used mine. No doubt there are differences that add up to the price difference, but bang for the buck, especially considering that I'm a hobbyist, I went with the A3 and am very happy I did. I made a $15 solution for raising and lowering the table (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veJPpksmW8w) - the biggest feature difference between the two. Surface finish is exceptional with the spiral head.
I bought a SCM 20" S500P bandsaw with the difference.

[Bob Hinden]

I have an A3-41 (w/ silent power spiral head) and am very happy with it. Great quality finish. The digital dial height gauge is very accurate and repeatable.

[Erik Loza]

OP, I won’t tell you what to buy but since you mentioned Felder combos, I would look at the Hammer C3’s. A little more than half the price of a CF7-41 and tons of machine for the dollar.

Also, if you’re in the US, waiting time for a CF is more like 20 weeks, possibly less on a C3. Good luck in your search.

Erik

[Matt Day]

Save a ton of money and buy used.

[Ron Selzer]

Might check this out
Hammer C331 / Felder - tools - by owner - sale (craigslist.org) (https://buffalo.craigslist.org/tls/d/lockport-hammer-c331-felder/7291263021.html)
Ron

[Ed Mitchell]

As a hobbyist, the OP certainly lists a lot of industrial machines. If that's what the OP wants, hey, go for it, but if there are budgetary constraints, there are great machines which will serve the hobbyist well for many years that cost far less.

I think the A3-41 is an embarrassment of luxury for a hobbyist. And OP can use his current lunchbox planer in some of those scenarios when changing the A3 between jointer and planer would mean that settings are lost. And then to have money for a great bandsaw? Heck yes, I'd rather have a great bandsaw and the A3 than the 741, because I'm not running a professional mill, where I'm surfacing lumber 8 hours a day. IDK about paying for a Felder bandsaw, I think I'd rather spend the money elsewhere. Again, you can get a great Hammer bandsaw (or Powermatic, or Laguna, or etc) bandsaw because you're not going to run that bandsaw 8 hours a day just to make payroll.

[Lisa Starr]

With your list of "possibles" I'd seriously consider a Hammer A3-41 with the Silent Power Head. I have the smaller A3-31 with the head and it is a wonderful machine. Or, if you anticipate wanting a slider TS now, or in the future, consider one of the Combo machines that will give you the saw, jointer and planer all in one package.

[Bruce Lowekamp]

Personally, given the money and space, I would rather get a 12” standalone jointer and 20” planer. I think the powermatic with helical heads are also in that price range.

Bruce

[Andrew Hughes]

I agree with Mat look for a used jointer. I see the larger ones in my area sit on Craigslist.
If you were to shop for used invest in a short precision straight edge. Bring it with you to check out beds and fence.
Its nice to know if your getting a flat fence with flat tables before you haul it home.
I myself have a large jointer and spend more then a year looking.

Good Luck

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I have a Felder 741 in my shop, and it is a nice machine, The beds are plenty long enough, they look shorter than they are because of the perspective of the width of the machine. I think it is probably in the top 1% of J/P on the market, which is why I bought it.


BUT.....

I would recommend you look a different way, get a slider saw first. The ability to straight line rip off the carriage far outweighs the benefit that a bigger jointer gives, not to mention all the other reasons to have a slider. I rarely use my Felder J/P.

[Matt Day]

I agree with Mat look for a used jointer. I see the larger ones in my area sit on Craigslist.
If you were to shop for used invest in a short precision straight edge. Bring it with you to check out beds and fence.
Its nice to know if your getting a flat fence with flat tables before you haul it home.
I myself have a large jointer and spend more then a year looking.

Good Luck

Totally agree - so many beautiful old machines out there. Could get a 16”-24” jointer and a 20”+ planer for a $1k-$2k each.

[James Cheever]

Hi Jake. I just went through this decision process for my own shop.

I ended getting a Hammer A3-41A 16" jointer (with Silent Power Head) and the Powermatic 20" planer (with Bryd Head). Both are excellent and will leave some money to spare for other toys.

[Jim Becker]

I'm a J/P combo fan. Efficient space utilization, wide face jointing and generally very high quality machines from the normal suspects. Changeover takes like a minute...and the length doesn't come into play for most work. None of us should be trying to flatten a whole 8' board unless it's for a very rare project where the board will stay that long, anyway. Now if someone is frequently making long components, then they will certainly be better served by a longer, dedicated jointer.

I'm not overly familiar with the details of the Hammer and Felder machines since I'm in the SCM/Minimax clamp, but both series are very good tools. Were I starting from a blank slate, no question that I'd be considering the 410mm/16" versions from Hammer/Felder. They are awesome tools. Given the supply constraints/wait times, it likely wouldn't be a bad idea to see where the comparable SCM/Minimax 410mm/16" combos sit for price and availability, too, if you have a desired timeline.

[Alan Lightstone]

I'm in the opposite camp from Jim on this one. I much prefer separate jointer and planers, if you have the space. Part of that is that I had a Laguna jointer/planer which I really hated. I have no doubt that the Felder combo machine is far, far better. And, I'm sure the SCM/Minimax is as well.

I have the Felder A941 jointer, and find that I really never need larger capacity than 16" for my work. I find the tables more than long enough. Even for the very rare 8' board I have to process.

I also have the Felder D951 planer with the Silent-Power spiral cutters. It's ~20" capacity is great. Also having the digital readout and controls on that is awesome. Just being able to type in a dimension (the Digi-Drive system) is incredibly convenient.

Also, you haven't mentioned a bandsaw. Is that a need / desire of yours now?

Also, serious dust collection is in order for those machines.

[Wakahisa Shinta]

Before you buy a Felder machine, become a member of the Felder Owners Group (https://groups.io/g/felderownersgroup). A lot of people can advice you about machine and options there. Occasionally, used machines from members are posted there for sale.

I have a J/P combo machine, but I dislike the conversion, so bought separate jointer and planer. You have the space, consider separate and 3-phase machines. Having 3-phase power opens up more possibilities, a lot more. After you have 3-phase power, then you want to look at the metal mill, lathe, surface grinder, etc. so you can make tools for your woodworking machines.

[Jake Elkins]

I appreciate everyone's advice here. Kinda leaning toward the Hammer at this point. If I grow tired of the conversion, would the Hammer J/P work as well as a stand-alone jointer if I just ignore the planer function (and eventually add a stand alone planer later)?

[ChrisA Edwards]

I appreciate everyone's advice here. Kinda leaning toward the Hammer at this point. If I grow tired of the conversion, would the Hammer J/P work as well as a stand-alone jointer if I just ignore the planer function (and eventually add a stand alone planer later)?

Sure and in that mode you could add the long extension on both the infeed and outfeed giving you a lot of extra support should you need it.

This is for a A3-31 showing the longer extension table. There is a shorter extension that does not use a support leg. I have this permanently mounted on the planer outfeed.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/i452/cedwards874/Woodworking/.highres/ExtensionTable1_zps9whornec.jpg

[Jim Becker]

I appreciate everyone's advice here. Kinda leaning toward the Hammer at this point. If I grow tired of the conversion, would the Hammer J/P work as well as a stand-alone jointer if I just ignore the planer function (and eventually add a stand alone planer later)?

I think that once you experience the fact that changing between functions is fast and easy, you'll not tire of it. And it also promotes better planning and workflow...since I moved to a J/P, I tend to get all my flattening out of the way up-front so most of the time, my machine is actually sitting there in thicknessing mode. The 60 seconds or so to switch it back isn't a hassle if I, um...forgot...something. :)

[Stewart Lang]

If you don't mind waiting 40+ weeks, why not try and shop the used market a bit before spending that large of an amount on a single machine. Check out eBay and auctions. I bought a fully restored 16" Moak Jointer from eBay for about $1900. Beds were enormous, flat within 0.003" and the entire machine was extremely solid. Oh and the best part, it was single phase, 3hp. I then put a Byrd spiral head on it for another $1800. I'd take that machine over anything Felder, Martin or SCMI makes any day. I also picked up a newer 12" Grizzly spiral head jointer for $1500 last year.

My point being, be a little smart and patient with your money and you can make it go much, much farther. Especially on a jointer, as a jointer only does one thing and it's a very simple thing :)

[Thomas Crawford]

I love my A3-41. I would not go <16" for the J/P with your budget.

Used bandsaws seem much more plentiful to me, even older 20"+ versions. I'd get a K3 slider with the rest of the budget.

The main issue is you are going to wait 6-8 months at this point.

[Andy D Jones]

As a hobbyist, the OP certainly lists a lot of industrial machines. If that's what the OP wants, hey, go for it, but if there are budgetary constraints, there are great machines which will serve the hobbyist well for many years that cost far less.

I think the A3-41 is an embarrassment of luxury for a hobbyist. And OP can use his current lunchbox planer in some of those scenarios when changing the A3 between jointer and planer would mean that settings are lost. And then to have money for a great bandsaw? Heck yes, I'd rather have a great bandsaw and the A3 than the 741, because I'm not running a professional mill, where I'm surfacing lumber 8 hours a day. IDK about paying for a Felder bandsaw, I think I'd rather spend the money elsewhere. Again, you can get a great Hammer bandsaw (or Powermatic, or Laguna, or etc) bandsaw because you're not going to run that bandsaw 8 hours a day just to make payroll.

I am a hobbyist. I have the A3-41 (purchased new), and I'm not embarrassed! It is a very practical solution for me, in terms of capacity, cost (compared to separate, equivalent capacity machines) and floor space, including the material-handling footprint. The carbide insert cutterhead, numerical thickness indicator insert for the handweel, and short extension table on the outfeed of the planer (and the separate mounting bar for it) are highly recommended.

I would not say it is a great solution for everyone, just as I would certainly not rule it out for a hobbyist.

-- Andy - Arlington TX

[Doug Dawson]

I think that once you experience the fact that changing between functions is fast and easy, you'll not tire of it. And it also promotes better planning and workflow...since I moved to a J/P, I tend to get all my flattening out of the way up-front so most of the time, my machine is actually sitting there in thicknessing mode. The 60 seconds or so to switch it back isn't a hassle if I, um...forgot...something. :)
I would far prefer separates. A combo machine would drive me nuts. My approach originated from hand planing, which involves (at least initially) flipping the board over repeatedly to plane the high spots on both sides, allowing the board to “relax” into a flattened state with less loss of thickness, and/or removing similar thickness from both sides. Jointing one side completely and then planing the other can lead to some awkward results.

So I have the jointer and planer (both Powermatics) side by side. I would hate to not have this option. With a 30x80 space, the OP has the room.

[Jared Sankovich]

As a hobbyist, the OP certainly lists a lot of industrial machines. If that's what the OP wants, hey, go for it, but if there are budgetary constraints, there are great machines which will serve the hobbyist well for many years that cost far less.

I think the A3-41 is an embarrassment of luxury for a hobbyist. And OP can use his current lunchbox planer in some of those scenarios when changing the A3 between jointer and planer would mean that settings are lost. And then to have money for a great bandsaw? Heck yes, I'd rather have a great bandsaw and the A3 than the 741, because I'm not running a professional mill, where I'm surfacing lumber 8 hours a day. IDK about paying for a Felder bandsaw, I think I'd rather spend the money elsewhere. Again, you can get a great Hammer bandsaw (or Powermatic, or Laguna, or etc) bandsaw because you're not going to run that bandsaw 8 hours a day just to make payroll.

I wouldn't be embarrassed if I had a hobby shop full of Martin's..


Totally agree - so many beautiful old machines out there. Could get a 16”-24” jointer and a 20”+ planer for a $1k-$2k each.

Prices for turn key machines are typically higher than that, but even so that would be my suggestion.

[Jim Becker]

As a hobbyist, the OP certainly lists a lot of industrial machines. If that's what the OP wants, hey, go for it, but if there are budgetary constraints, there are great machines which will serve the hobbyist well for many years that cost far less.ther spend the money elsewhere. Again, you can get a great Hammer bandsaw (or Powermatic, or Laguna, or etc) bandsaw because you're not going to run that bandsaw 8 hours a day just to make payroll.

WHy does being a "hobbyist" matter when it comes to personal machine choice? "Hobbyist" encompasess a huge range of folks from individuals who feel they have simple needs all the way to woodworkers who do amazing work in shops that rival many commercial operations. There is no universal "good enough". I"m not sure where the term "embarrassment of luxury for a hobbyist" comes from, but honestly that' just doesn't apply in any way, shape or form to anyone's personal decision about what is best for their own needs and desires.

[Robert London]

Hey Jake, If I had your cash and space, I'd buy a separate 16" helical jointer and a 20" helical planer. You'd be about 10 grand for both.

Are the combo machines good, yes? But you're limited to16" of width and that can be a bummer on larger slabs. Also another thing is ergonomics.

Not having the top return rollers and a place to set your wood on a combo machine is tedious if you're going to run a lot of pieces, and the changeover as well.

Oliver makes a 16" helical machine for 6k, 5hp 1 phase. Grizzly has similar machines for 6k ish. Hamer makes the standalone 16" jointer for 5k ish

Plenty of options to get a nice 20" 5hp helical planer for 4k and under.

[Prashun Patel]

I have the A3-31 and love it, but fear that we may be steering him towards this choice. Go in with eyes wide open on a jointer planer. You get:

Higher jointer capacity at the expense of lower planer capacity.
A helical cutter head where you might not have spent extra to do it for separate machines.
More space efficiency at the expense of changing over. The 2 hassles in changeover are moving the dust chute and having to crank the table down or up 150mm.
You will learn how to gang your jointing and planing ops so you're not constantly having to do it. Eventually, you won't notice this as a nuisance.

If you routinely do larger things that benefit from extension tables, then these can complicate switch over.

It's good that you've been at this for a while, because only YOU know how you best work. For my money, I couldn't be unabashedly happier with my 31. Seams can be flattened with a hand plane. Remember too that 16" planing and jointing capacity means you have to be able to LIFT and support that kind of work.

[Andrew Hughes]

I think the Austrian made hammer machine is a good investment. If woodworking didn’t workout for you it will a excellent resale value.
Im not a fan of the insert head for a jointer because it’s a handfed machine. I like knives
I did notice the euro style insert heads have less cutters so that should help with feeding wood without a lot of pressure.
Good Luck

[Rod Wolfy]

IMHO, the Hammer would be great as a 16" jointer only, but you'd benefit from having both. Try purchasing a 16" jointer for under $6k.

I've also been woodworking for 20 years. Lots of tools have come and gone. I had a Jet 12" J/P and sold it to a friend last summer. I would not get an A3-31, as it's 12". I will be getting the A3-41 in May. Ordered and paid for the deposit in June of last year, but the factory is running slow. There will be a price increase in the very near future.

[Bruce Lowekamp]

For those who prefer the combination machine, AFAIK they don’t have dual-speed planers, whereas I think that’s a standard feature on all of the (higher end) stand-alone planers. Do you feel that’s a drawback, or once you have a helical cutting head is it no longer an issue?

Bruce

[Erik Loza]

For those who prefer the combination machine, AFAIK they don’t have dual-speed planers, whereas I think that’s a standard feature on all of the (higher end) stand-alone planers. Do you feel that’s a drawback, or once you have a helical cutting head is it no longer an issue?

Bruce

1.) The higher end combo machines are generally available with two planing speeds.

2.) Never personally missed the second speed (fast) that you get with these higher-end machines if a home shop/weekend warrior. That's a feature more for shops that are just doing dimensioning in high volume but seems to have found its way into the hobby market more out of "want" than "need", IMHO. In my experience, most garage ww'ers are more concerned with finish quality than being able to stuff wood through the machine as fast as possible.

Erik

[Jim Becker]

For those who prefer the combination machine, AFAIK they don’t have dual-speed planers, whereas I think that’s a standard feature on all of the (higher end) stand-alone planers. Do you feel that’s a drawback, or once you have a helical cutting head is it no longer an issue?

Bruce

I've never felt a need for multiple speeds when thicknessing...the feed rate on my J/P seems reasonable. I also do not have a helical or spiral cutter head...just Tersa. The finish is great and in the rare circumstance that I do get some tearout, it's pretty much the piece of wood that's to blame along with my poor choice of said material.

[Bruce Lowekamp]

I actually wasn’t thinking about planer speed in terms of speeding up production, but in terms of slowing down to improve smoothness. I thought it would be interesting to do some math and spent some time looking for specs this evening.

DW735 on slow with 10000rpm cutterhead does 179 cuts per inch. If I replace the 3-knife cutterhead with a byrd with 4 overlapping rows, that’s now 2 cuts per revolution, so 120 cuts per inch

PM 15HH has a byrd cutterhead (still 2 cuts per revolution) at 4500, feeding on slow at 16fpm, so 47 cuts per inch

Minimax fs 30c if I understand correctly the xylent cutting head has 3 complete rows, so 3 cuts per revolution running at 5200rpm with 23fpm feed = 57 cuts per inch

Hammer A3 I think is basically the same spec as the Minimax.

Which I think explains why I’ve seen people say shops even with high-end planers keep a lunchbox planer because of cut quality.

Now maybe this is picking a planer just so you can skip a pass with 100 grit sandpaper, but I think it’s interesting the variance in cuts per inch here.

Bruce

[Alan Lightstone]

I've never felt a need for multiple speeds when thicknessing...the feed rate on my J/P seems reasonable. I also do not have a helical or spiral cutter head...just Tersa. The finish is great and in the rare circumstance that I do get some tearout, it's pretty much the piece of wood that's to blame along with my poor choice of said material.

I've never turned the dial on the speed change on my Felder. Never needed or wanted to. FWIW.

[Jake Elkins]

Just thought I would update my journey - after weighing the decisions, pro/cons, and tiring of looking for used big jointers, I got the Laguna 16 in J16. Thing is a beast, and works like a dream. Very pleased with the fit and finish. Based on some (older) comments on customer service, I was a bit timid, but I have nothing but good things to say about them. The few times I've called, the experience was pleasant. While the European combo machines are very nice, having already assessed my work flow, I am glad I went for separates. First project - a big, long workbench. Should be fun.

Soon I'm sure I will begin the solicitation for advise regarding a big bandsaw, but from this experience, the Italian Laguna 24 is really high on my list. Thank you again everyone for you help.