Chemical and Heat Resistance Results: Part II

[John TenEyck]

Following on from the prior post, I tested the resistance of EM-8000CV + 4% Crosslinker as well as GF's Enduro Clear Poly. First the hot water, bourbon and Windex tests. EM-8000CV + CL is on the left, Enduro Clear Poly on the right.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fah82clptE825bkFEc1JO6Uri5i80lyg5p2T7GmjUUHZeYzHH Dms2Sro1p5kv5pPlQ1EDAjfJT3zA-6udel1hY_gFTW4vU8pAPPIq40Nl7bV7vGfit5iA30FrCgPmmi1 J0NTSb1UXO1EBgp20yOfBi0A=w835-h626-no?authuser=0

In this photo taken 30 minutes after the start you can see how the bourbon (on the lower left) and Windex wet out onto the EM-8000CV+CL specimen, just as it did w/o CL, while they stay beaded up on the Enduro Clear Poly (and EnduroVar in the prior test). After 1 hour they looked like this:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3ctPYLkwP8fpc5lvCqhgJQVbL3W4dd-Ir5xrtun0sPEI781Gof7K7KOlJ6ltVdCx7CwZF0C4GBZkHod4Z EgzUR7Bkm6J7qUwzEH4m8Y6PnInd5CFP6xxPTWzv0Vm22xHrN6 9dQSwBGvf2uHdJGTADtJRA=w835-h626-no?authuser=0

After wiping them dry:


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3ci4VrSjqZclD1n2wwdl49e3YrERtyErp-rGu7nBRHD9LH8Vwr4XVB-lrvpEbMwn1u0DdAZxb9zwI5XRIFfmAbD7yS7UN3GCzGPKrtCkh rkREqrrveWEuecOhtaIkuxbkuPIsRpVuZaI6NO55gDaMpK6A=w 835-h626-no?authuser=0

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fbRL7o6XeTmzgpaIokZjciaC0C4vjDrGe1C25CaJF_rZ1CY6A 7av386lvoDxUIm6A1BHknlf09WG0i4g1FtNl47isN53BqJhfOi DwbNqb8fN3eFQciAWZXv6DadbemPoWwEdi9s5IkUt3sxiQwrxm vlA=w835-h626-no?authuser=0


These two specimens were like opposites. Everything wet the wood through the EM-8000CV + 4% CL and the hot water and bourbon left white rings on it. With the Enduro Clear Poly, only the Windex wet through to the wood. The hot water left a faint dull ring which you can't see in the photo, while the bourbon had no affect.

Moving on to the 350F hot cup test:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3c_1RGyp_FtYdCA2RVgdjNFabUFw5wJ1HxDi5kR1HpHltY7jVA F1O4Fu6_gn_hDZvb44YRvqS5WQbi3rNyEU33a3TuaZrUChUtCw 83aBnkan9dUnRVxQwpmH1rlqydFI927TU040b7vjce9j6FTj8r QUg=w835-h626-no?authuser=0

After cooling to room temperature you can see a faint picking on the Enduro Clear Poly specimen. You also can better see the ghost ring from the hot water test at the top of the photo:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3e1cn-syeLKVFUxErVyFLQDz6tIpixlDtio8wzjP86GEL49gZ5WvV4L4 rInoY5gq9YwSfBtzjccZ5NPCi6mEzV3CzAleVhEL_yIc_c6Ycx QtD5r6kbtg0CH2e7lWRdSW48Q9Zq9FRx6GKZodT-8qHxH0Q=w835-h626-no?authuser=0

And you see more picking on the EM-8000CV + 4% CL, as well as a very pronounced white ring from the hot water test.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fEvWvVmSdNd3Bi8QjtyHfkTfJC0vRJNiQ5wwqoz8m54IZb4Qj RNaeces-UCOG_pt2-OuWwliGNkm89jWaiToJZu24wijMl9YBgsVB94ytdBPLf-sLaS14TtEoAm0oGptTAjKydPR3pXKvghpGXCpoSlA=w835-h626-no?authuser=0

These results left me very disappointed. I used to use EnduroVar and Enduro Clear Poly for most projects, but recently switched to EM-8000CV for a tabletop because I thought it would have higher durability. These results do not suport that conclusion; in fact, it's not nearly as good as either of the other two products. It was better after adding the Crosslinker, but still not as good as the other two. Shame on me for not testing it first. And I guess I won't be surprised if I get a call.

In summary no waterborne finish I have tested is as durable to some chemicals and heat as Arm-R-Seal. Some aren't even very resistant to hot water. But before you think ARS is bulletproof, I once had to repair a piece done with ARS the owner had left a leaky can of Scrubbing Bubbles on, which chewed right through to bare wood after a few days.

Of the waterborne finishes I have tested EnduroVar has the best overall performance in terms of resistance to water, chemicals, and heat.

John

[Prashun Patel]

Wow, those are dissapointing results. Now it seems that the only reason to keep using the EM8000cv is because of the ease of application, and the good leveling ability.

I do find (anecdotally) that the cv seems to resist abrasion more than Enduro Clear Poly and 6000. JT, are you considering an abrasion test next???

Also, I have to ask how long did you let the various finishes cure? I'm finding the 120 hours recommended for the CV not right. I find it reaches hardness at about a month.

Last, I have found that the Target products have a pot life that degrades a little too 'gracefully' for my taste. With Waterlox, it's good one minute, and then gels up and is unusable the next. It's black and white and I've come to appreciate how easy it is to assess its usability. For the Target products, I've left product in a partially filled pps cup for a week, a month, and 6 months. The oldest material LOOKS perfectly usable, but takes longer to dry and does not level as well. So my next question to you is how fresh all of the finish samples were when applied?

I very much appreciate the time you took to do and post this (in addition to all your finishing advice over the years). Thanks pp

[John TenEyck]

Good questions, Prashun. I should have given that data in the post. All specimens were sanded to 150 grit prior to finishing. All the WB specimens had 3 coats of finish (over the Sealcoat, if used); the ARS one had 4 in order to get the same approximate coating thickness. All specimens were allowed to cure for a minimum of 8 days (192 hours), but none had more than 10 days before testing. I can't say I've ever seen a WB product get much harder after 7 days but I haven't used EM-8000CV before. In any case, I allowed the WB products to cure well beyond the manufacture's recommended full cure time (120 hours at 70F for EM-8000CV). If you are familiar with ARS, then you know it takes longer than 10 days to fully cure, yet I tested it after only 8 - 10 days. Shows how good it really is.

To make the EM-8000CV + CL I followed the directions and slowly added the crosslinker while stirring the finish. After stirring for another 2 minutes I waited an hour before using it. I applied each coat after approximately 2 hours, scuff sanding in between coats with 325 grit. I used a foam brush to apply the finish and kept the finish container closed between coats.

I agree; big disappointment. EM-8000CV sprays so easily and lays out so nice and flat. EnduroVar is not nearly as user friendly for me, but I'm going back to it as my go-to finish when durability counts and I want to use a spray finish. But I am feeling better about having used Clear Poly on my kitchen cabinets. It sprays like a dream, too.

I can do some hardness and abrasion tests on EM-8000CV after a month or so. In my prior testing, nothing beat Enduro Clear Poly so it will be interesting to see how it compares. My guess just feeling them is that CP will do better.

Oh, I just saw that EnduroVar has been changed. It's now called EnduroVar II, and has been reformulated with a different oil. In case you didn't know, EnduroVar is a hybrid oil/water emulsion in the same way EM-2000wvx is. Apparently, GF changed the formula to make it greener. It's reported to have less amber color than the original I used.

As an aside, a friend of mine just used some Osmo Poly-ox on a walnut slab table. I asked him to see how it stood up to water. He put a glass of ice water on it with some water around the bottom. He reported zero affect after 24 hours. I asked him to try bourbon but haven't heard back yet. Curious, I just order some Osmo Poly-ox for myself and will test it once received. The photo he sent me sure looked nice on black walnut and it's stupid simple to use.

John

[Jim Becker]

You might want to share that with Jeff Weiss at Target to see what his thoughts are.

[Tom Bain]

Thanks for posting all this, John. Very informative. I’m interested in the Osmo durability as well. Kind of hard to believe it would be anywhere near as durable as a varnish (whether oil or water-based), but if it is, then could be a go-to finish given the ease of application.

[Scott Holmes]

Have you tested SW Kem-Aqua Plus? I know you were not happy using it... it's still my favorite (non post-cat) KCMA certified finish.

[roger wiegand]

Thank you John for this. In the lab this would have been one of those "Oops, we need to re-think our hypothesis" moments. (Oops is not actually the phrase usually uttered at those moments). Appreciate your work on this!

[Gregg Markowski]

Thank you John for this. In the lab this would have been one of those "Oops, we need to re-think our hypothesis" moments. (Oops is not actually the phrase usually uttered at those moments). Appreciate your work on this!
Thank you for all of the work you have done on this. As you may know I am new to wood working and finishing is the most perplexing part of all it seems. There are so many options! Its very confusing. Thank you again.

[Bennett Ostroff]

Thanks for the experiment, John. I'm very curious about the Enduro Var II. It's on the GF website and Rockler website but I haven't seen in the Rockler store yet. I'm bummed that it appears to be less ambering than original Enduro Var, but it seems they fixed the (supposed) adhesion issues. So Enduro Var II could be put over an oil-based sealer which may make up for less ambering.

Curious to hear if/when anyone tries the new formula. Most curious to know just how different the ambering effect is.

[Patrick McCarthy]

John, thank you for sharing this knowledge with us. It is very much appreciated, especially since the choices sometimes seem overwhelming. Having put the time into the ww project, i would hate to mess up the final finishing process. Best, Patrick

[Prashun Patel]

It was my instinct that the CV8000 with cross linker is not as bad as was revealed in John's tests. I tried my own test. I believe he was more thorough than I, so take this with a grain of salt. I had a block of white oak that was finished about 60 days ago with EM8000CV + 5ish% crosslinker. I manhandled this test piece and was pleased with how it held up to general handling. (That orangey spotty area at the bottom was an initial coat of Sealcoat applied on the unsanded surface).

Today I put about 2ml Windex and 2ml Bulleit bourbon for about 30 minutes.


Initial Application: The Windex immediately caused a white spot.

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After 30 minutes, the bourbon had also created a white spot.

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But after a few minutes, the bourbon spot is not quite as visible as at first. I tried taking pictures around the edges. The finish did not appear to soften and the sheen was not affected significantly.
I can still see the faintest of rings around the bourbon spot, but I wouldn't call it a fail. I mean, this is 30 minutes of ethanol exposure. That's a hard ask. Most alcohol spills would get cleaned up in a minute or two. Windex contains ammonia. That's also asking a lot of a finish. (edit: 30 minutes later, the windex spot is not visible except in bright light, which reveals modest white spot. Critically, neither sheen is compromised; in raking light you cannot see where the offending spots were.) I would not call this a major fail.

I respect that the oil based finishes are wonderful; my Waterlox bar top is 10 years strong. I have a Waterlox SHOWER bench that looks fantastic 5 years after daily, drenching exposure to soap and water. However, this is not to say waterbased finishes won't perform as well in practice on a kitchen table or island top (2 heavy use applications). It does require you address spills and be smart about your cleaner, but John's results (to me) shouldn't cause a rush to judgment away, or cause a belief that any of the other finishes will be magic bullets.

Proper application, curing, and modest care can keep your finish looking good. The ease and comfort of spraying some of these still tips the scales in their favor vis a vis oil based for me in some applications.
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[John TenEyck]

Prashun, you should do it again with an hour of exposure to keep it consistent with what I did. That way, if it comes out good we'll know it was due either to the 1% higher CL level or the longer cure time. Target Coatings' reported test results are 4 hours of exposure followed by a four hour recovery period. Their results show EM-8000CV to be terrific, but they didn't use any of the common chemicals I did. I thought I was being kind to limit the test exposure to one hour, but people do leave stuff on their furniture despite best intentions. My friend's wife left a leaky teapot on his beautiful mahogany table finished with EnduroVar for many hours, maybe overnight. The white ring is still there two years later. I had a client leave a leaky potted plant on a top I finished with GF's Urethane Topcoat for weeks. It destroyed the finish under the pot.

As much as I have avoided it, I may have to try GF's Conversion Varnish or a 2K poly to get durability as good as oil based varnish. I hate call backs.

John

[John TenEyck]

Have you tested SW Kem-Aqua Plus? I know you were not happy using it... it's still my favorite (non post-cat) KCMA certified finish.

Hi Scott. No, I haven't tested Kem Aqua Plus. I'm not sure I even have any anymore. If I do, it's several years old and might not be fair to try it. But you could easily do the same testing I did and let us know how it turns out. I actually liked spraying KA Plus after I added some of GF's Extender to it. Before that, however, you are right, it wouldn't flow out and looked terrible. After adding some Extender it looked great.

John

[Prashun Patel]

I did it again last night. I tested the same amounts of Windex and Bourbon on the same spots and added a wet glass of water as well, pooling the water underneath. I left these on overnight (12 hours). By the morning, the alcohol and windex had evaporated. There are witness lines around each spot but the finish was not compromised otherwise in terms of texture or sheen. I struggled to take pictures that show the offenses.

Here is the after picture. I notice some white where the Windex was. At normal viewing angles without harsh light, it is very hard to see the witness lines from the Windex and liquor. The water left no trace.

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Sorry, I had an issue with picture rotation on the below three images. In the first you can see the witness lines around the bourbon spot.

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The shop light has obscured the "Windex" label on this second pic, but that's what this one shows. The witness lines around the edge of this spot are also visible, but less so than the bourbon. I suspect that's more due to to the staining from the color of the liquids than a chemical degradation. Witness lines is a bad name for it, because the finish has not been eaten through there; you cannot feel the edges.



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There was no evidence of compromise from the water.

[Jim Becker]

Prashun, will the residue from the evaporated borbon wipe off with a damp rag? Same question for the Windex. 'Just curious...

[John TenEyck]

Thanks for doing the additional testing Prashun. I wasn't condemning EM-8000CV. I was reporting comparative data against common household chemicals and drawing conclusions as to which products performed better. The fact that EM-8000CV didn't do as well as EnduroVar was disappointing but facts are stubborn things. Your testing showed witness marks for both the Windex and bourbon, and a white spot from the Windex. Maybe they will disappear over time, but I'd rather use a finish where that doesn't happen at all. Some customers will call you back at the least sign of a problem. Others never call you back. Neither is desirable.

In the waterborne product line I'm still looking for a finish as good as oil based varnish.

John

[John TenEyck]

I was reading about Milesi finishes and they referenced coffee as being a problem so I decided to test a subset of the finish specimens for reaction to coffee, specifically espresso. You can see damage on some areas of the EM-8000CV from prior testing.

Here are Arm-R-Seal, EM-8000CV + 4% Crosslinker, and EnduroVar with espresso cups on them. I drooled 2 ml of warm espresso down the sides of the cups, as you might if you spilled your coffee a little.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fcNvKj55R2XvSk2IeZPXZRvRqm9I1he7tfew0pok9xpME8Es3 RV6Rsvihmf9tHh6WQrokPud3YAWN2Cu77oRg51xIiOw1UwSRcw _a7VwIgqiCFtS26qwZQAQPVK9AImau0XDDnbdBiMxsvDiROd3L fPg=w835-h626-no?authuser=0

After 4 hours they looked like this when I picked up the cups:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dtSPqkam9Phm7DrCz-cJiWu_W7xesUQPrpR53exb9Ji6asOukI9w5mFi6P5nhJHk8lpO fit0zt1ZcgI0jy1vXOy6K3IPP8oeLwJrRgBfzml4yCVCdGQjOZ oFpkKoLUb_Qz2qZVMMJm0AeAhJgiaclDpg=w835-h626-no?authuser=0

After 8 hours I removed the cups again:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3f0iNAhKlrxXScp9u12KQhoZk4bdSfB40Wb2vqMX5CGNyuJ5ws uy6O2Xtfl_KaFfr5WIW3_CTndjKQNfZu8uuKQqqk8hLBo-s_0OLhpqlHyN7r-2wHzyp0w7t4O3DzefOgpQ3xB65LiWhazG-CCe03xIQ=w835-h626-no?authuser=0

Then I wiped them clean with a wet sponge and dry them with a dish towel. This is what they looked like:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cUrHwtot9COFXMBLfLlQ96EabWEi42zrY93XIj1GbZeW9RG60 hEnZ98OSGNMo_jpPhyMeYFKvZkRffX9hybU9Sv4cSNThAmCstF x4v7u7fS1MMuZgCgmQmBr4LB_LNWNxWuePrBHzT_cteG9SpI-6BGQ=w835-h626-no?authuser=0

Photographed the other way:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eJpFWOsCMsf0EgRSFBf4QexemKRn7bm_W_OOj7YgwJHy6ZhXY qWSSZMt9smvPCHOu0p0U9zvNHKocq8PENca0TTNsMGvUaCCIbY MoKWTJCZApFY4gPx9LizMseBEyVUc1QjnGurGHfonmtsB-kH8DtlA=w835-h626-no?authuser=0


I found no effects on the ARS or EnduroVar specimens, while the EM-8000CV + 4% CL had a stain.

John

[Prashun Patel]

John, I have spilled a few coffees on my island and never had an issue. After your post yesterday, I ran the same test you did - coffee ring left for 8 hours on the em8000cv with cross linker. I will post pix when I can get to a computer but I found no staining, no bleaching, and only the faintest of witness marks. It was no where near the fail you recorded.

[John TenEyck]

John, I have spilled a few coffees on my island and never had an issue. After your post yesterday, I ran the same test you did - coffee ring left for 8 hours on the em8000cv with cross linker. I will post pix when I can get to a computer but I found no staining, no bleaching, and only the faintest of witness marks. It was no where near the fail you recorded.

I don't quite know what to make of that Prashun. Your finish seems to consistently test better than mine. Could a 1% difference in catalyst make that much difference? Or maybe the super long cure time? At this point what I do know is EnduroVar consistently tests better than EM-8000CV + CL.

I will make up another test specimen of EM-8000CV with 5 or 6% CL and test it after 8 - 10 days of cure. Then we'll know if that was it.

John

[Prashun Patel]

Your coffee test really floored me because by now that test board should have been cured right?

[Tom Bain]

John — How old is your EM-8000CV? Just asking in case it’s a bad batch or something.

[Prashun Patel]

Pix of my experiment.

Before
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Initial:
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After 6 hours (not 8...)

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Final

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[John TenEyck]

Your coffee test really floored me because by now that test board should have been cured right?

Yes, it had cured 8 - 10 days before I did the first round of testing. By the time I did the coffee test it had cured 20+ days.

John

[John TenEyck]

John — How old is your EM-8000CV? Just asking in case it’s a bad batch or something.

I bought the gallon of EM-8000CV in December or January. It was not frozen when it arrived and looked and dried fine so I assume it was good. If something else was wrong I have no way of knowing.

I'm not picking on TC but both products I have used from them has given me trouble. The EM-9300 gave me bridging around the pores of the white oak I applied it to. Sprayed great and looked great other than the holes which no amount of discussion with Jeff at TC ever resolved. He graciously refunded my money, but I still had to deal with the mess. I striped it off and switched to GF's Exterior 450 and it flowed out beautifully though it doesn't look as good. Now the EM-8000CV; it sprays great and flows out great, but the chemical durability test results for me have not been impressive.

John

[John TenEyck]

I retested EM-8000CV, this time adding 5% Cross Linker. I applied 3 coats of finish two hours apart, scuff sanding with 325 grit sandpaper between coats. I let the sample cure for 8 days before testing.

Top is hot water in a mug with 2 ml of the hot water drooled down the side to puddle around the foot of the mug. Bottom left is 0.5 ml of my Breckenridge Bourbon, sacrificed for science. Bottom right is 0.5 ml of Windex. This photo is after 1 hour:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3d_DghBqtvAT5NyhW0LZVuotF4COOgQq7REcazkiIbdF8_2SlB GbeenbLQ7KCMbgGJI5jcDAxuJjvYvN2bcAajlAKZU0Q6-G6swH95BniAxIroOLCTgZr7kJ0vFlKyYEWpVRFzx735ksLPj8K GjluF5Ug=w835-h626-no?authuser=0

Then after wiping off the residual liquid and drying with a soft towel:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dQxEXWM2Pf7lkR6NM2CTW3Cb_qRN7uhRPIEyYBRmxjGwgFdUX JsEskOfXzAvwG_oet0U3j8rT2zB3DBj5ny4QHMEhTJFWJ9zoRZ ZB2Y54P3g23_1BbjdVlyrnUuxQ6jOigvh457JB8Oe56UdBG3iE BIw=w835-h626-no?authuser=0

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3enFw010HTIsrl2W8SwdY7NHgbl7FyDoD701B-5PVIjKiRv9mg8LI1Uxh6l5egdIx2wQwNVOuqTq3sVUWnTM6P4X eIQS5hyuC5DtfLFRPo9I58wnsIgYLTl5C9jd4AE_Ms8-GJ69mAYwRw4zYMgi5V7Tw=w835-h626-no?authuser=0

24 hours later:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3e9QusLeQoRD9vLhnwmSBZfa5O2B3CzJVZCgbdE6TFBEP_ZcPv V0Z-t2a1g7tE5dFj1yLnj_rqYDueUgu-DircJoHuyANPczuRQUQG9vTyxiYmJs98XNKCLVxdRSr6BlmBCj QwUt2VQvypX7RJRkwK24Q=w835-h626-no?authuser=0

The bourbon and Windex left a witness mark but did no damage this time, which is an incremental improvement over the sample with 4% added cross linker. The hot water, however, showed damage to the finish, just as it did at 4%.

Looking at TC's Tech Data sheet for EM-8000CV I see that it says to add 5 - 10% crosslinker. The label on the bottle of Cross Linker I purchased, however, says to add 3 - 5%, which is why I originally used 4%. Welcome to the world of conflicting product information. I have no clue which is correct, but 5% is the only point of overlap, and the above results weren't what I would hope for. In complete fairness, I will repeat the test one more time at 10% cross linker.

I had mentioned testing Osmo Oil Poly-ox. I haven't done so yet, but I got my friend to put rum on a sample and it showed no impact after 1 hour exposure. Water had no effect after 24 hours.

Prashun, how about testing your long term cure sample with hot water?

John

[Prashun Patel]

I had tested previously with water but repeated it. This time I left the water puddle there for 12 hours.

Before / After
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Close up after, #1:

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Close up after # 2 under raking light. I cannot see any damage. No witness lines, sheen compromise, or haze.

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I have gotten the haze John experienced with water, but it has always abated. I left a guitar sprayed with 8000cv less than 12 hours later in the RAIN by accident (don't ask). There were haze marks where the rain had made drops. I put it in front of the heater and the haze disappeared in a matter of minutes. Here's a picture after the rain.

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[John TenEyck]

Prashun, was the water cold or hot? I asked if you could try hot water, as in teacup hot.
John

[John TenEyck]

Prashun, was the water cold or hot? I asked if you could try hot water, as in teacup hot.
Thinking about it a little more, it would be great you could make up a new sample with 5% CL, wait 8 to 10 days, and then repeat your testing. If it shows no damage then we'll know what I got was poor product. If it looks similar to mine then we'll know the cure time is really, really long. Thanks.
John

[Prashun Patel]

Well I got it to fail. I put a hot teacup on the spot and let it puddle. Frankly I don’t think it was the water but the heat that caused the fail. The top layer turned hazy, then opaque, then scratched off.

[roger wiegand]

I tried some 8000cv on a couple of turned pieces as an experiment. Let them dry a few weeks and then tried to buff them with a Beale buffing system. The heat from the buffer melted the top layer of the finish right off, like peeling the fine skin from an onion. What a mess! It's back to oil-based poly for that application for me!

[Jim Becker]

Roger, buffing out the Target Coatings products requires a lighter touch than with oil based products because of the heat generated. It should also cure for 14-30 days first, too. (technically, that's a good practice for oil based products, too) I ran into this with my first guitar body, learned the lesson, fixed the finish and then did buff it out and subsequent bodies just fine.

-----

Prashun, I think you're correct that the heat is the bigger culprit!

[John TenEyck]

Well I got it to fail. I put a hot teacup on the spot and let it puddle. Frankly I don’t think it was the water but the heat that caused the fail. The top layer turned hazy, then opaque, then scratched off.

Thanks very much for doing the test, Prashun. I think you are right that it's the heat, but this is a typical thing that can happen as my friend's wife proved on his beautiful dining room table finished with EnduroVar. If you review TC's test data you'll see they never test for this common failure mode. I don't know if GF does either, so I'm not picking on TC, just pointing out that there's just no way to be sure a finish is bulletproof until you do your own testing. And each of us gets to choose what they think is OK for their own needs.

As I said, I'll test another sample of EM-8000 with 10% CL. If that fails the hot water/mug test it will go on my do not use for critical applications list, along with many others.

John

[John TenEyck]

I tried some 8000cv on a couple of turned pieces as an experiment. Let them dry a few weeks and then tried to buff them with a Beale buffing system. The heat from the buffer melted the top layer of the finish right off, like peeling the fine skin from an onion. What a mess! It's back to oil-based poly for that application for me!

Roger, EM-8000CV feels pretty soft to me, much softer than GF's Enduro Clear Poly. I think you'd be happy buffing out that product after a 7 day cure.

John

[John TenEyck]

I retested EM-8000CV, this time with 10% Cross Linker which is the upper end of the 5 - 10% TC recommends for that product. I only did the hot water test because that has shown to be the most difficult for EM-8000CV. If it passed that, I planned to do the other testing. Sadly, it did not. Here's the coffee mug with boiling water and 2 ml of that water drooled down the side.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dgLQimz4bhc-umCY-hrXOMfY_KtdXZ9Blr7k8Qlw43gkxBybLThwps4riWxiSnP_I59 M5y7JnTL9PVYyRgb4F3jAEVmYndaNox2M4_oXR96dNQ3pSQQwk _f_O9T87XU9mffMm3HCBp21AuE99mSMhc3g=w835-h626-no?authuser=0

After 1 hour:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fiIgUV23c6qksAIVUHgJ8oEiW_p5P5juSe_qTTAqDcBvlahju V6De0rRkTSVN86wsCqqP-4WPL2dzGKzYLwK_uulhL_Zpws9u-SSserk6xIoN0xPfotdVTPvBYweMvQ16iB1z52r5HLuOQ3kJUCJ VEPg=w835-h626-no?authuser=0

After drying and 1 hour more:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3demj_cuXMKT4l2xY1NziJY0JuCn9WVv_kgeb1f_wsZ0R2qQ0M tTSN4h-B3TSOt-m9JTy_PTdLRQSus2KhkNM4bylsVECUi-aV5T_KSER4u5YhjEUIo9jLMcVN-cvrRCCdwPSU2uBmPVCuxcpVx968JXw=w835-h626-no?authuser=0

Not much I need to add.


John