good level

[Aaron Liebling]

Maybe more of a carpentry than a woodworking question, but I'm renovating our kitchen (all new everything mostly made by me) and need a quality long level or other solution for same.

Any suggestions?

[Mel Fulks]

I like the plastic 4 foot levels. Not as pretty as my Grampa’s wooden level, but much more accurate. I think mine is Empire brand . Get them
from Lowe’s and such.

[Stephen Rosenthal]

Stabila 4’ or 8’. Purchased many years ago. Not cheap but very accurate and almost indestructible. Mine are made in Germany. If that’s no longer the case I rescind my recommendation. Btw, for shorter distances the iPhone level and plumb bob apps are very precise.

[Paul F Franklin]

Decent quality 3 line lasers are not terribly expensive now and come in really handy for all types of construction work. Green are most visible outside, but red are fine indoors. I still use my long spirit level for plumbing door jambs, but for pretty much everything else I use the laser.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I'll second the Stabila. Also the new Milwaukee's are nice. That's about all I trust with a construction level without checking. Easy to check, just set the level on something, note the bubble location, flip it and the bubble should be in the same location. Get a faulty level out of rotation ASAP.

Sounds like a good opportunity for a laser purchase though. I wouldn't be without one on interior remodeling. They work really well on checking elevations, layout and are the best tool for cabinet placement. I particularly like the little Dewalts, the self leveling ones with the horizontal, vertical and plumb dots up and down. $200-300 will get you a good one. Mine are all red lines, but green lines are more visible (and more expensive).

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Decent quality 3 line lasers are not terribly expensive now and come in really handy for all types of construction work. Green are most visible outside, but red are fine indoors. I still use my long spirit level for plumbing door jambs, but for pretty much everything else I use the laser.

I didn't mean to duplicate you Paul, we must have been typing at the same time, I'm slower though.

[Peter Kelly]

Bit spendy but worth it I think.
https://superiorlevel.co.uk/products/endurance?variant=15366925713462

Stabila or Sola are also both very good.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I am a Stabila fan, but they are pricey. I am strongly hesitant to loan them to my neighbors when they come calling. If I had only one brand, it would be Stabila. Still made in Germany, by the way.

I have had good luck with Stanley and Empire. Frankly, most levels have worked well for me.

The Milwaukee Redstick Level has really good visibility, but, I think that the True Blue Vials on Empire are very nice.

If you just want to run a straight line in a large area, get a laser then everything can be evenly set in one shot. Just saying.

I find it handy to have something small. I prefer to have at least two of them. You can get something like a Stabila Pocket Level (about $10), but I am as likely to grab my "line levels". I don't even remember which brand I have off hand, but I am more likely to drop two of them onto a surface than to place them on a line because they work there as well. I don't remember which brand I have off hand other than the fact that I have a really nice small Stabila that I do not even see as something that they sell anymore.

Search "Stabila 76370"
https://www.amazon.com/Stabila-10-Pack-Key-Chains/dp/B00C6ME8TO

but these might serve you just as well:
https://www.amazon.com/Hanging-10x10x29mm-Picture-Measuring-Instruments/dp/B07VTQG17V

Sometimes, that little one is just what you need, but I have a bunch of different sizes.

I have never used the circle ones, I mean I have one on a few tripods and I own at least one that just sits around, never bothered to use it. I usually just drop on two of the small buble levels.

[Kevin Jenness]

Most carpenters I know use Stabila. For cabinet installation I use something more precise, an old Starret grade level that I can read to 1/64" over its 15" length, as well as a laser. The Starrett works well piggybacked on a 6' Stabila with embedded magnets. The modern equivalent is a "precision bench level"https://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/132-12

[Alan Gage]

I use my laser much of the time.

When I first started doing carpentry work it was when I decided to build myself a house so I went out and bought a couple nice levels. They got accidentally knocked over, knocked off, and dropped from day one, seemingly always onto concrete. Since then I just buy the cheap ones. It doesn't hurt me as much when they fall over and when they aren't accurate anymore it doesn't hurt me to buy a new one.

Alan

[Ralph Okonieski]

I do not do much carpentry, nevertheless I have three different sizes of Stabila. They are very accurate. I use them frequently when making furniture and cabinets; the small 10 inch one is useful for installing drawer slides.

I have several Craftsman levels that were the first ones I purchased; they are used as a straight edge when cutting drywall and other non-leveling tasks.

[Jerome Stanek]

The most acurite level I use is a water level

[Tom M King]

I have a bunch, and won't recommend one type to get. Check them before you take it out of the store, including to see if you like the way the bubble works, and looks. I even have some cheap plastic ones that I cut into different lengths to use for setting tile in showers, to serve both for level, and a straight edge.

[Jim Becker]

Stabila 4’ or 8’. Purchased many years ago. Not cheap but very accurate and almost indestructible. Mine are made in Germany. If that’s no longer the case I rescind my recommendation. Btw, for shorter distances the iPhone level and plumb bob apps are very precise.

That was going to be my recommendation, too.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, I have a 6 foot and a 3 foot Stabilator level, type 196.

They’ve installed more battery banks than I like to think about, accurate and rugged......Rod

[Mel Fulks]

When I was a kid I had a helper construction job. Boss had an expensive metal level that was not accurate. Probably dropped too many times.
I asked him if he used it on the tower of Pisa. But got no answer.

[Rod Wolfy]

I have a couple of Stabilas, too. But with my eyes getting older, I like the Empire Blue levels that have a light inside the bubbles for visibility. I checked several of them against each other at HD, to make sure that the one I picked was true. I also have a Dewalt green laser that is the bomb for installing shelves, cabinets and the like.

If I was just a homeowner, the Amazon Huepar green laser level would be accurate enough in conjunction with a level.

[Derek Cohen]

When building in cabinets, I have used two types of aids: a 24" long digital Bosch level, and a laser on a tripod (there are plenty of these around).

This is the Bosch ...

https://cdn.shakedeal.com/images/detailed/321/SDBSH0009700.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[roger wiegand]

I bought a new Empire level a while back without looking at it closely enough. For some reason they beveled off all the corners, back about 3/16", making it impossible to accurately use the level to draw a line with a pencil using the edge as a guide. I can't imagine what the logic is for that, or what the intended use of the beveled corners is. It's pretty, but not nearly as useful as my beaten up old square-edge level.

For our house project a few years ago I splurged on a Dewalt green laser that projects both level and plumb lines. For tasks like hanging cabinets it is just awesome!

[Prashun Patel]

I have cheap empires and Johnson’s from Home Depot. For a cabinet install you can make them work just fine. Mine have served for 20 years faithfully.

That said. A 4 ft level that also is a reliable straight edge may be useful in other applications too such as tool set up. If I had to do it again, I might upgrade for that reason.

One trick I used repeatedly when I needed a lighter, longer, or skinnier level is to build my own straight edge for the project from lumber and tape a small torpedo level to the top.

[richard poitras]

1st choice would be a Stabila as they are top quality, but if on a budget the Empire .

[Mark Wooden]

Crick Tool- www.cricktool.com

If you want a substantial level that you'll like every time you pick it up

[Peter Kelly]

https://www.acmetools.com/shop/tools/sola-lsx482410
1 each 48", 24", 10" Sola levels for $151.80 plus shipping.

-or-

https://www.acmetools.com/shop/tools/stabila-22135
1 each 48", 24", 12" Stabila levels for $130.00 plus shipping.

Both seem like decent deals, Stabila set comes with a carrying bag though.

[Ole Anderson]

I second the use of a laser level for setting kitchen cabinets. My son got a Bosch red laser under $150 IIRC. Very useful also for setting steel stud walls in his basement as well as getting a long straight line for flooring without tripping over a chalk line. Many uses. Supplemented with 2' and 4' Johnson spirit levels. I have a 6' aluminum level with milled edges which I find very useful for trimming doors and as a long straightedge, don't remember the brand.

[Jim Becker]

Ole, I'm actually considering investing in a "reasonably nice" laser level when my future new shop project happens. It can be very useful to have.

[Aaron Rosenthal]

Stabila and/or laser levels. Period.
Get the box levels, not the flat ones. My 5' Stabila has a digital readout and the others don't but they're all great.
When you buy ANY level, check it by putting it on a "level" surface and note the centre level bubble, then turn it end for end. They should match, otherwise, try another level.
I also have a 2' Johnson which is a joy.
But I also agree, a laser level for hanging cabinets is the answer for installing cleats.

[lowell holmes]

Go to Lowes and Home Depot. Both stores have them. You will know when you when you find one you like.

[Warren Lake]

have stabila stuff. Still likely can see finer resolution on a bubble than the digital one though digital is easier to see the big numbers. LIke a digital caliper compared to my dial indicator, the dial shows finer resolution than the digital can but the digital is easier to read

[Mel Fulks]

[QUOTE=roger wiegand;3109508]I bought a new Empire level a while back without looking at it closely enough. For some reason they beveled off all the corners, back about 3/16", making it impossible to accurately use the level to draw a line with a pencil using the edge as a guide. I can't imagine what the logic is for that, or what the intended use of the beveled corners is. It's pretty, but not nearly as useful as my beaten up old square-edge level.
Mine is not beveled , Can’t imagine why they would change them. Gonna check the ones available here. You might find a store
with some older stock.

[Warren Lake]

oh, I liked the Pisa comment :)

[Alan Lightstone]

I've gone more and more to laser levels (I have the Bosch, but bought a sturdier and taller tripod for it). I little finicky self-leveling sometimes, but great for hanging stuff on walls. Red laser. Green would definitely be more visible.

Also use digital levels for woodworking. Several sizes. Shefio is the brand. Bought it on Amazon. Seems very accurate when tested.

[Jim Becker]

Go to Lowes and Home Depot. Both stores have them. You will know when you when you find one you like.

The stuff at the 'borg isn't even on the same level as the good stuff most of us are recommending. (pardon the expression) The OP wants a pro-level level, as it were. :)

[Doug Dawson]

The stuff at the 'borg isn't even on the same level as the good stuff most of us are recommending. (pardon the expression) The OP wants a pro-level level, as it were. :)
Could you explain how an Empire level, that actually measures level, is not as good as a high-end level that also claims to? For example, if you have a level that measures level, and you flip it around and it measures the exact same level, how is that not good enough, at least for construction and installation purposes (which is most of what all of this is for.)

[Mel Fulks]

Could you explain how an Empire level, that actually measures level, is not as good as a high-end level that also claims to? For example, if you have a level that measures level, and you flip it around and it measures the exact same level, how is that not good enough, at least for construction and installation purposes (which is most of what all of this is for.)
I'm with you, Doug. But think how much wer'e gonna enjoy readin' about how much better the platinum plumb-bobs
are than the brass ones ! I'm guessing someone will say ...."well,for one thing ,they come with a starched string for
better straight-ness. "

[Jim Becker]

Doug, it's true that a "level level" is certainly within the realm of the more budget friendly products and it may very well satisfy a particular individual when they find it. So yes, you are correct in calling me out here. But what you do tend to get with the higher end levels is more consistency and durability over time. Some have more features for flexibility, too. So it's more likely that the first one you try/use will be dead on as opposed to the mass market products.

I honestly no longer buy the "good enough for construction" thing after seeing the level of precision that some folks put into "construction"...it rivals what many of us strive to do in our shops when building furniture, honestly. I've compromised the ease of my own work by thinking "good enough" too much in the past, honestly.

After all that, my thinking here has gravitated more toward what Ole mentioned. For cabinet work and a lot of other construction things, I'd like to have a good laser level involved. The level is as long as it needs to be and takes away some of the small challenges that a hand-held level has with movement. It's kinda like having a third hand.

[Curt Harms]

1st choice would be a Stabila as they are top quality, but if on a budget the Empire .

I sometimes wonder if Empire is under rated. I have a couple Empire squares that are as square as I can measure. They're not made as heavy as something like Starrett but with reasonable care they seem fine and it's not painful to replace them if need be. I also have their 12" level that seems accurate when using the 'swap ends' method. It is easy to read and has a 'slope' vial or whatever it's called. Lines for 1/8" slope per foot, 1/4" slope per foot etc. If it matters, most Empire stuff is still made in Mukwanago (sp?), WI. or at least was a few years ago.

[Tom M King]

My favorite levels are 4', and 78" Stanley magnesium ones, that I bought new in something close to 1975. They're lightweight, and should be fragile compared to some that are supposed to be more durable, but 46 years is not too bad out of such lightweight tools. They've built more than a few million dollars worth of stuff, and still read fine. They are just a couple in the pretty good arsenal of levels, but I've somehow managed to get by without spending high dollars on levels. I am still using a couple of the original Smart Levels too, when it's nice to know a digitally presented angle.

Much like squares, if they read level, or square in the store, they should be plenty serviceable, especially for a hobbyist.

[Prashun Patel]

Empire used to make a line of ebony levels to compete in the ultra premium market.
Alas, they proved too heavy and pricey for even the most cultured carpenters. Facing abysmal sales, the line was abruptly discontinued. The headline in trade news read,

“Empire strikes black”.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Could you explain how an Empire level, that actually measures level, is not as good as a high-end level that also claims to? For example, if you have a level that measures level, and you flip it around and it measures the exact same level, how is that not good enough, at least for construction and installation purposes (which is most of what all of this is for.)

If I may, the most important detail of levels is how accurately my old eyes can read the bubble. In a perfect world, the bubble is exactly as wide as a set of calibrated lines on the vial, so there is no mystery as to whether it's centered. Very many levels do not do this because the lines are not correctly registered or the bubble is to big/small. Another issue pertaining to old eyes is bubble visibility. I like colored fluid because it is easier to see the bubble in. The Empire blue in my 6'er have faded, they are now a very subtle light blue, which is still ok. I prefer the yellow or green fluid (Stabila or Milwaukee) though, however my oldest Stabila is faded from yellow to nearly clear now too. Someone mentioned the machined corners being beveled so using the level to draw a straight line or as a straight edge is very complicated, and this is pet peeve #3. Lot's of levels in my tool shed, only a few get used every day because they are user friendlier.

Oh, then there is the "disposable" level category, the ones made of a weak casting that will bend if accidentally dropped or bumped hard. These are usually the cheap store brand levels, so disposable is ok. They can serve a purpose, but don't expect a lifetime of use. Unfortunately the wood ones seem to fall into that category often. I collect old tools, levels included, and I would not use many of my 100 year old levels for accurate work, usually because the wood has moved and they are no longer very straight.

[michael langman]

I bought a 4 foot Stanley aluminum level in 1980 and it is still as good as the day I bought it. Also got a 2 foot stabila from Cripe distributing that was as level as level is and it confirmed my Stanley. You may want a more robust level then the Stanley, but they should all be handled with care.

[Alex Zeller]

I have a couple Johnson 4' wooden mason levels. They are fine for most of what I need them for. I just went through the whole batch until I found the most accurate one. Checking a level is simple. Check something, spin it around and check it again. If the bubble is in a different spot then it's not perfectly level.

I did have a 8' Stabila until a wooden beam fell on it while building my house. My father bought it at a garage sale for $10. Loosing it was a crying moment. To replace it would mean buying off the internet and trying to deal with shipping something over 8' long. That same week a contractor backed over the empty case for my Trimble laser level (thank god it wasn't in it). Great stuff is nice but the good stuff doesn't hurt much if it's damaged.

[Warren Lake]

maybe those guitar builders were buying up ebony levels for fret boards. Alex you are making up a new thread. I loaned my cement mixer to a friend and his son backed over it while they were building a home. I should have got the extended warranty.

[Mel Fulks]

When I was a kid my father bought a wood level. Occasional home repair use. In reading his Popular Mechanics mags. I saw the level your
level then turn it around and see if it reads the same thing, thing. It did not read the same, but Dad was stoic. I seriously doubt any of them were accurate. Johnson wooden level with routed and puttied vials.... today that would be vile.

[Todd Bender]

+1 on a laser for cabinet installs. Huge time saver and more accurate.
I have a bosch 2 line red laser with tripod I'll sell if you're interested. I think it's a GLL55, built need to get it out and check. I upgraded to a green 3 line a year and a half ago and no longer use the red one.

[Todd Bender]

Buddy of mine worked on a trim crew in late 80's. Boss had to change out his alternator on the job site one day and used a new 4' level to pry on the alternator to tighten the belt. He broke the level in half. From then on every level was referred to as "the prybar."

[Aaron Rosenthal]

Could you explain how an Empire level, that actually measures level, is not as good as a high-end level that also claims to? For example, if you have a level that measures level, and you flip it around and it measures the exact same level, how is that not good enough, at least for construction and installation purposes (which is most of what all of this is for.)
Doug, a great question. It deserves an answer.
Firstly, when I bought levels, I went to proper builders yards. They deal, from necessity, with a more demanding professional, so Stabila was a normal stocked item.
Secondly, builders yards don't want either returns of poorer quality tools because they have a rep. to maintain,and if they loose a house or tract because of complaints about out of level units, it hurts.
Thirdly, as a trades person and later as a contractor, I couldn't afford to have problem with plumb and level. I certainly didn't want to have my people finishing work at day's end, standing back and saying "OH SH**!!!"
My pal, (a superior, in my opinion) would use my Stabilas, but himself used a master reference level.
Neither of us could spare the time to swap our levels end for end to check the bubble, then perhaps make adjustments to the work because a less quality level went out a few degrees.
If it's a hobby, it's one thing. If you are getting paid for skill and time, it's anther.

[Doug Dawson]

Doug, a great question. It deserves an answer.
Firstly, when I bought levels, I went to proper builders yards. They deal, from necessity, with a more demanding professional, so Stabila was a normal stocked item.
Secondly, builders yards don't want either returns of poorer quality tools because they have a rep. to maintain,and if they loose a house or tract because of complaints about out of level units, it hurts.
Thirdly, as a trades person and later as a contractor, I couldn't afford to have problem with plumb and level. I certainly didn't want to have my people finishing work at day's end, standing back and saying "OH SH**!!!"
My pal, (a superior, in my opinion) would use my Stabilas, but himself used a master reference level.
Neither of us could spare the time to swap our levels end for end to check the bubble, then perhaps make adjustments to the work because a less quality level went out a few degrees.
If it's a hobby, it's one thing. If you are getting paid for skill and time, it's anther.But what if you know that it’s accurately level? No constant checking required, because you already _know_ that. I’m not talking about levels that are physically abused on the job site, yeah you should recheck it if some idiot used it as a pry bar, but I can think of no pay grade of level where that would not be a problem.

A level is a level, BTW, and should be used for that purpose.

[Osvaldo Cristo]

I am plenty satisfied with Starrett aluminium levels. I have their versions at 1200mm, 600mm and 450mm. Precise for carpentry and inexpensive. Recommended.

[Brian Holcombe]

But what if you know that it’s accurately level? No constant checking required, because you already _know_ that. I’m not talking about levels that are physically abused on the job site, yeah you should recheck it if some idiot used it as a pry bar, but I can think of no pay grade of level where that would not be a problem.

A level is a level, BTW, and should be used for that purpose.

I have an empire level, it was supposedly cut flat on both sides but after time it has developed a twist in it or I simply did not notice the twist it had. I plan to replace it with a Stabila level. In my opinion a good level should be a lifetime tool, not something I'm replacing after 10 years.

Aside from that, I tend to go for quality simply for the sake of quality whenever possible and affordable. No reason to go to the stratosphere for every tool but I've definitely found some companies I can almost always rely on.

[Jon Endres]

I have a 78" and 32" Stabila that have been treated with great care for 20 years. They are quite accurate. I had a Johnson laminated mahogany level that was my favorite, somewhere along the line it grew legs and disappeared. Still looking for it. If I wanted a decent mid-grade level I would look at the Empires and Milwaukee levels. I also have old PLS5 and Stanley Fatmax laser levels that still work great for larger projects.

[Dave Sabo]

Could you explain how an Empire level, that actually measures level, is not as good as a high-end level that also claims to? For example, if you have a level that measures level, and you flip it around and it measures the exact same level, how is that not good enough, at least for construction and installation purposes (which is most of what all of this is for.)


It's not as good in the same way craftsman or husky tools aren't as good as your Wright, Knipex and Snapy ones. They all wrench, or grip or whatever they're designed to do. Same as a Fein or ShopVac or Nilfisk isn't as good as your Festool CT. They all roll, suck and turn on when you use your connected power tool.

[Mel Fulks]

Dave, I disagree. All of the listed products work and then wear out. A craftsman can’t wear out a level...only a helper can do that.

[Derek Meyer]

I bought a Dewalt laser level a few months ago to help hang some long shelves. It works fantastic for that. I splurged and bought the green three-beam unit that uses the 12V batteries, as I heard that the ones that use AA batteries go through them quickly, and I plan on using the unit outdoors for some projects in the future. I got the level, tripod, battery and charger for $500. I already have two other 12V tools so I can share batteries between them.

For regular levels, I have 1', 2', 4' and 8' Stabila levels, and a 2' red aluminum level (maybe a Stanley). The red level is the one I let my wife use because I'm not so worried about her dropping it. I'm very careful with the big 8' level, as that cost nearly $300. I definitely consider that a lifetime tool.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I have a 78" and 32" Stabila that have been treated with great care for 20 years. They are quite accurate. I had a Johnson laminated mahogany level that was my favorite, somewhere along the line it grew legs and disappeared. Still looking for it. If I wanted a decent mid-grade level I would look at the Empires and Milwaukee levels. I also have old PLS5 and Stanley Fatmax laser levels that still work great for larger projects.

That new Milwaukee that I mentioned above is not mid grade, it's as good as my Stabilas. Costs as much too.

[Dave Sabo]

Dave, I disagree. All of the listed products work and then wear out. A craftsman can’t wear out a level...only a helper can do that.

What exactly are you disagreeing with , and what’s your point.

It’s fairly obvious tools wear out at some point. Whether one tool wears out quicker than another may - or may not contribute to it being “better” (or gooder) ��than another.

And clearly you haven’t spent any time around a mason. They wear levels out all the time.


Steve - the new redstick levels were designed from the ground up to be better than Stabila. Whether they are or not is a matter of subjectivity - and kinda the undercurrent of this thread.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Steve - the new redstick levels were designed from the ground up to be better than Stabila. Whether they are or not is a matter of subjectivity - and kinda the undercurrent of this thread.

Indeed, who knew levels were this debatable! I'll admit that when I bought a Redstick 4' because someone borrowed my old trusty Stabila and I needed one, I fully intended to give them the Redstick so they'd quit borrowing. I used it a couple times, now keep both in the pickup. Find myself grabbing the red one more than the yellow one now. I just like the vials better.

[Mel Fulks]

And clearly you haven’t spent any time around a mason. They wear levels out all the time. Dave Sabo
Just saw your question. The masons might wear out the levels ,but I’ve never seen one get replaced. I posted about that early in this
thread. One guy with an old beat up level checks his swimming pool with an old expensive level to determine which end needs more water.

[Phillip Mitchell]

What a thread about such a simple instrument! I love and have come to really put a lot of trust in my Stabila levels when I need spirit levels. I have a torpedo, 16”, 32”, 48” and 72” and could stand to have a 24” and 96” as well occasionally. If you use them often and depend on your levels to make your living and help build your reputation I think it’s a buy once, cry once situation and I’d expect Stabila levels to last upwards of 20-30 years in the field as long as they aren’t grossly abused. Stabila also has a good warranty in place, though I’m not sure how far that extends to actual abuse. Never loan your Stabila to a mason, though...

I also really appreciate and rely on a good laser. I’ve had a few Bosch 5 point lasers; my latest one that’s about 6 years old, used often in the field and not exactly babied finally stopped working reliably recently and I want to replace it with a high quality, green laser line level that can do plumb, level as well as set to off level angles for stair work. I’ve heard great things about PLS.

[Tom M King]

I bought most of my levels before I had ever seen a Stabila. I can't remember breaking one, and if my memory serves correctly, I'm still using every one that I bought, except for the brass guarded Masons ones, which do get to the place that they are no fun to continue to use. I've managed to build stuff for decades, with no hinderance from inferior levels. I like to check them in the store, to see if I like them.

I also have several lasers for different things. I just have always wished that the lines weren't so wide.

If I really want something level, I use my builders level, that makes 1/16th inch divisions on a ruler look Huge at 50 feet, or better, and a helper with a sharp pencil.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I also have several lasers for different things. I just have always wished that the lines weren't so wide.

If I really want something level, I use my builders level, that makes 1/16th inch divisions on a ruler look Huge at 50 feet, or better, and a helper with a sharp pencil.

Tom you've probably tried a builder laser, the type with the receiver? Just like a transit or builders level, but use it in reverse. Love being able to see how far off I am by just reading the measurement, mine reads in 1/16ths, and it is that accurate to I think 2500ft. No need to see the line. Point is, if we're doing something super fine, that receiver somehow magically finds the center of the line, repeatably. I know the tech works on rotary lasers, but it also works on some prism units which serves as a way to narrow that line.