New Shop DC Layout

[Rob Will]

Here's the scenario: You are building a new building 40' wide, 80' long, 16' clear under the trusses. In one back corner of this building is a 24' x 40' WW shop. It is oriented in the same direction as the main building. The WW shop has an overhead door on the 24' end that opens into the main building. Adjacent to that is a paint room equiped with folding doors.
_...._____40_______.....___40_______
l........................ l.... ww shop........ l
............................................WT.. l 24
...................................TS............ l
l.....storage..... DCl_______l________ l
.........................\.....paint shop..... l
.........................\........................ l 16
l_______________/________________l

Here's the question: Would you put a DC pipe in the concrete floor to service the table saw (TS)? Would you put an electrical outlet in the floor to service the TS and another electrical outlet under the work table (WT)?

The DC itself will be located in the storage area and the DC ductwork will be a split perimeter system on the 40' long walls of the WW shop. The objective is to keep the overhead space clear of ducts and the floor clear of extension cords.

Thanks for your input,
Rob

[Jack Wood]

If the pipe in the concrete gets clogged up, if, how would you unplug it?:confused: As to the outlet in the floor most of those that I have seen eventually get filled up with dirt and sawdust, maybe an outlet type post? With 4 outlets for more options? As to more outlets anywhere else, do your self a favor and put twice as many as you think you need, because you will need twice as many as you think you need, and go ahead an wire your self some 220v outlets in also. I used 12/3 wire through out my shop so as to handle any thing I might want to do later, but man I wish I had put more outlets in while the shop was empty. Oh and get a a big amp fuse box, don't skimp as later on your going to need all the juice you can get. And it goes the same for your lighting, the bill just keeps getting higher doesnt it:eek: And here's my last advice, (thought it would never end didn't ya?:D ) if you are not a certified electrician get one to come in and check ALL of your wiring and have them to wire it in to the panel. It's worth ever penny to know that you haven't wired a bomb waiting to go off down the road.

[Kirk (KC) Constable]

I'd clear a clog the same way underground as above...with a snake...so that would be a non-factor for me. When I build a new shop, the main line is going under.

I used to have my tablesaw outlet on the floor, and agree with the comment about the sawdust. Even though I didn't have to plug/uplug it every day, I regretted putting it there every time I had to get on my knees to do so (twist lock). It's on the wall now, at the end and just above the end of the front fence rail. Much nicer. :)

KC

[Art Mulder]

Re: the outlet in the floor filling with dust....

I don't have any personal experience with one, but why not just put in a little box, just high enough so that the outlet can be oriented sideways. I've seen those before in other applications. This should keep the dust out of the way, and doesn't take up all the vertical space that a pole would.

[tod evans]

rob, personally i wouldn`t put your dust collection pipe in the slab, even power i`m skeptical of due to the fact that over time the conduit will accumulate grit off the floor. i ran my main trunk overhead with branches dropping to each machine, i also ran my electrical chase overhead and ran conduit down to each machine and spaced 110 service every 10ft around the permiter with an air drop next to every box. so far this has proven to be very workable and flexable when i get a wild hair and move something.....02 tod

[Rob Will]

Re: the outlet in the floor filling with dust....

I don't have any personal experience with one, but why not just put in a little box, just high enough so that the outlet can be oriented sideways. I've seen those before in other applications. This should keep the dust out of the way, and doesn't take up all the vertical space that a pole would.

Art,
That gives me an idea; how about pouring a 2" conduit into the floor with a sweep el ending flush with the concrete surface. At first the end would be sealed with an internal threaded plug.

At such time that the electrical is needed, clean off the plug and install a pipe nipple as a riser with junction box on top.

I am looking at some fairly heavy 3-phase items that may not be very mobile. I would like to get it right from the beginning but as Tod pointed out, everything is mobile when needs change.

The DC to the planer comes off the top no matter what. So, perhaps an alternative method would be to position the planer on the right side of the TS and bring 3ph power and vac to both items overhead:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: ?

I'm really riding the fence on this one. Everyone's suggestions are very much appreciated.

Rob

[tod evans]

The DC to the planer comes off the top no matter what. So, perhaps an alternative method would be to position the planer on the right side of the TS and bring 3ph power and vac to both items overhead:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: ?

Rob[/quote]

rob, this is exactly how i have my panel saw and planer set up and i`ve moved quite a bit of material through both and haven`t found a weakness in this configuration yet.......02 tod

[Chris Gregory]

Rob,

Putting everything in the slab brings new meaning to "written in stone" you are locking yourself into your layout or at the very least making it an ordeal for any changes. I would run everything overhead, this way as Tod says should you get a wild hair you'll be able to do something about it ;)

[John Bush]

Hi Rob,
When I was designing my shop I wanted to hide my DC lines in a trace or an open, lidded, trough running around the periphery and criss-crossing the center of the the shop. My primary hobby is WWing but I wanted to be able to move the stationary big stuff around as needed and when I win the Lotto I'll begin restoring vintage Ferrari's(more likely Fury's) so I didn't want to permanently imbed the pipe in the slab. I installed radiant floor heating and soon abandoned the idea of the access troughs inslab. Felt it would be too complicated.
I recently built an attached shed for my DC cyclone and installed snaplock pipe overhead with 8 drops and as you can guess I wish I had followed through on my initial design instincts. A friend who poured the slab for me said it could easily be done, but I just went the simpler route and now have the DC tentacles dangling from the ceiling. The system works quite well, but in retrospect I would prefer the hidden pipe and electrical.

Morale of the story: Follow thru on your instincts. Talk to your slab man and ask what he thinks of your ideas. Think long term needs . Good luck, JOhn.

[Rob Will]

rob, this is exactly how i have my panel saw and planer set up and i`ve moved quite a bit of material through both and haven`t found a weakness in this configuration yet.......02 tod[/quote]

Tod,
Do you share a DC line for both TS and planer? Blast gates?

It occured to me that the elctrical conduit for both machines could follow the DC duct thereby having only one overhead obstruction.
(I get into clean mechanicals and neat appearance, a challenge in itself)

All other machines i.e. jointer, shaper can go near the wall so that part is easy.(?)

Rob

[Bart Leetch]

I have seen a couple of commercial shops that have a trough down the center going right under the table-saw with a cover plate in which they ran DC, air & electric. You could do this & Y off to either side catching your jointer & planer as you head for the outside walls & then go to the wall & up as high as you want for tools around the walls.

This way you can lift the cover plate to get to DC duct, electrical conduit or air plumbing to make changes.

[J.R. Rutter]

You can always abandon the floor duct if you move things later on. It doesn't add a huge amount to the cost does it? Just make it big enough so you don't have to supplement it with overhead stuff later.

[tod evans]

rob, this is exactly how i have my panel saw and planer set up and i`ve moved quite a bit of material through both and haven`t found a weakness in this configuration yet.......02 tod

Tod,
Do you share a DC line for both TS and planer? Blast gates?

It occured to me that the elctrical conduit for both machines could follow the DC duct thereby having only one overhead obstruction.
(I get into clean mechanicals and neat appearance, a challenge in itself)

All other machines i.e. jointer, shaper can go near the wall so that part is easy.(?)

Rob[/quote]

rob, the way it`s set up in my shop is a 12" trunk with an 8" drop going to the planer and a seperate 7" going to the saw. i did put a "y" in the saw line and pulled off a 6" for the w&h but i have it on wheels. everything has blast gates at the machines. as for neat? i tought myself to weld on my d/c system so it ain`t pretty but it sure does suck:)...tod

[Jeff Singleton]

I was a patternmaker in a shop that I helped build and we had everthing underground. The shop was 50 x 100 x 14 with a trench right down the middle. The trench was 16" x 20" and was lipped at the top for a plywood or sheet steel cover. In the trench went a 12" DC pipe and a boat load of electricl conduit. With this kind of layout all the machine were located on one side of the trench or the other. Starting out we had a 16" jointer which stradled the trench then a 24" planer on the back side of the jointer then a 12" tablesaw on the left then two 24" disc sanders then a 20" disc sander then a 20" bandsaw and another 24" disc then another 20" bandsaw and yet another 24" disc and then a 36" bandsaw and finally another 24" disc. All the runs from the main branch were under 3 ft. and all quick disconnects were almost on top of the trench. If you size your DC properly you will not have any clogs. Although we did not have any 90 deg. turns of the branch I really don't see why you can't put one just make sure your DC has the umff to handle it. Our DC was a 15 hp Torit cyclone outside. Putting the DC and electric in a trench makes changing machines easy and leaves the ceiling clear for radiant heat and rows of flourecent lighting and you actually use less DC pipe and fittings. In case you couldn't tell bandsaws and disc sanders along with spindles sanders are the lifeblood of a patternshop. Fittings, www.stampedfittings.com (http://www.stampedfittings.com) , Oneida and Air Handling Systems for layouts and local HVAC supply house for spiral pipe. Don't forget a grounding rod for the DC.

Happy splinters.
Jeff Singleton:rolleyes:

[Rob Will]

I have seen a couple of commercial shops that have a trough down the center going right under the table-saw with a cover plate in which they ran DC, air & electric. You could do this & Y off to either side catching your jointer & planer as you head for the outside walls & then go to the wall & up as high as you want for tools around the walls.

This way you can lift the cover plate to get to DC duct, electrical conduit or air plumbing to make changes.

Bart,
Was it a pre-formed trough or was the trough cast into the concrete?
If I can get the two problem items (TS and Planer) with just one drop, including the electrical, it will be hard to justify going into the floor.

I have another shop for the Ferarri, should one ever come my way.

Rob

[Jim Becker]

I am not generally in favor of "permanent" piping in/under concrete...however, a channel cast into the floor with a steel or plywood cover would fill the need if you want to route dust collection and power to a machine or three in the middle of your floor, especially if you have clear spans in the space.

[Rob Will]

I am not generally in favor of "permanent" piping in/under concrete...

Jim,
You guys talked me out of it. I think I'm going to do like Tod said.
With the planer positioned to the right of the TS, both can be fed with one drop (3ph elec + DC). Having said that, I do think I'll run some power out to the work table under the floor. Not much need to move the table about....and I have a 4' x 8' "target" to hit. Some friends of mine have a table with 110v outlets under the table edge at all 4 corners, it works well.

Here's one more idea: Since the planer is very heavy we can look at it as a fixed point in the shop. With a bracket, post etc. we can install a twistlock outlet for the TS to the left side of the planer. Add in the means to disconnect the TS's DC hose and the TS could be rolled out of the way (?):confused: :confused:

Rob

[Jim Becker]

Rob, that sounds very workable and since you are putting in some big iron (or so it seems), "stationary" is probably more likely than it would be in many shops. Further, if you arrange your tools for the most functionality relative to work flow, you can still keep them towards one end of the shop, leaving more free/flexible space for assembly and other tasks. There is no rule that says you MUST have everything "centered" in the shop! If I had the space, I'd have a machine room/area and something separate for assembly/hand tool work. (Not to mention a dedicated finishing room. But I don't.