Lake Erie and Anchora (AYS) leg vise retrofit.

[Scott Winners]

Finally took it on today. I have had four days off since Feb 22 and my next day off is Mar 27, but I just couldn't wait any longer. Not done, but I have a working vise again if I need to sharpen a saw before the install is finished.

First, both companies, Lake Erie Tools Works and Anchora Yacht Services, have both been top notch to deal with for me. I had order verification emails from both within 24 hours, and both shipped product in the window they said they would ship.

Besides the install instructions from both vendors, (excellent documents), for my retro fit I leaned heavily on two other sources. There is a youtube guy, Jay Bates, has a video up 22:10, just search youtube for "Jay Bates hickory" and look for the one 22:10 duration at the top of your results. I have watched that one at least three times. The other is Derek Cohen's website in the wood shop dot com I think. Besides the chain install article, in the section of his work bench build is a leg vise retrofit that covers three different entries. I probably owe Derek several beers for using so much of his server time. EDIT: Also Chris Schwarz _Anarchist Work Bench_ has an excellent write-up I referred to often.

I have already lost count of how many times I have rolled my bench around on the floor tonight. I knew a retrofit was going to be a pain in the neck, tonight was the first time I was glad my bench doesn't weigh anymore than it does. If there is any way around it, don't do a retrofit. Install your leg vise to the vise leg before you assemble your bench. This sucks.

Having said all that, my plan is to just hit the highlights and not repeat or belabor the good info already out there in the sources above.

First up is wax. Just about everybody slathers on some floor wax as they do final assembly of wooden vise screw to wooden vise nut. No buffing. I don't like it. Wax collects dirt and dirt is hard on screw threads. Buffed wax is easy to keep dusted. I used salad bowl wax on my hub and tommy bar, floor wax on the threads. For the nut, by the time I had floor wax down into all the threads I had enough wax on my glove after clean up to do the whole nut with floor wax. The pic is my application and buffing setup for the screw, like flossing teeth. There is a bit of play between the screw and nut, so I just sort of leaned my fat belly up against the hub the lock it in place, flossed all the gaps I could reach, turn the hub 90 degrees, repeat. All the floor waxes I could find have petroleum distillates in them, so for application I was flossing hard enough to get the wax to liquify, then let it set until it stopped smelling, then at least an over night in the room with the wood stove, then buff. 3 coats applied and buffed, I was well into diminishing returns with the third coat.

The second pic is how far I got tonight, about four hours of shop time. I have the hole for the screw through both chop and leg, hole for the chain through chop and leg, mortise for the nut cut, nut installed, chop cut to length at the floor...and that's it. Chop is still 1/2 inch proud of the bench top.

[Scott Winners]

One of the tasks I have been dreading is cutting a mortise for the nut on the back of the vise leg after then bench is assembled. This would be cake with a bare leg.

In the one pic I have the chop clamped to the vise leg with the screw and nut for the first time ever, made knife marks for my mortise. Then flipped the bench 180 degrees, pencilled in my knife marks, and was only able to make three full width cuts with my circular saw. Marking gauge, more pencil marks, hand saw with non dominant hand from inside the bench legs, blah, blah, blah. Don't be like me. Be smart. Install your leg vise while your bench is in pieces. Large Veritas router plane was able to reach about a quarter of the mortise floor at a time.

I did cut my nut mortise only one half inch deep, same as the shoulder on the side stretcher. I am going to have between 9 and 9.5 inches of open working depth when I am done, major upgrade for me. I could cut a deeper mortise, position the nut closer to the face of the vise leg. Might in the future, but I haven't thought of anything wider than 8 inches that needs to go in the vise instead of meeting Mr. Holdfast and his friend Mrs. Doe Foot on the benchtop. Or their cousin Mr. Planing Stop.

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[Scott Winners]

Once I had the nut mortise pared wide enough that I could reasonbaly mallet the wooden nut home I just assembled it with the Tommy bar too and pulled the nut home with the screw. It is the very end of dry season here, ground snow isn't rotting yet, but hardpack snow on pavement is starting to soften.

I did trade emails with Lake Erie and let them know Fairbanks, AK is one of "the places" with humidity swings (wikipedia/ Fairbanks / climate). The nut and screw I got from them are fabulous. Just beautiful straight grained maple like I can't find in the store. I will ask them (email) if friction fit at the end of dry season is suitable, for now I am using no fasteners and no glue to hold the nut in the leg.

Next up will be to route the chain through the side stretcher to help locate the parallel guide...

[Mike Hutchison]

Scott
Good looking work; stout construction/design.

[Phil Mueller]

Nice progress, Scott. Should serve you well. Look forward to seeing the finished vise (as I’m sure you are as well!).

[William Fretwell]

Before you assemble the vise you should carve rope into the two front corners of the vise. It's much easier now than after you assemble the vise! :)

[Scott Winners]

Besides the primary problem of this being a retrofit, when I built the bench I new I wanted a leg vise, but I didn't know which one. I raised up the side stretcher to clear a knot leaving plenty of room for the vise screw above and parallel guide below, and then learned of the chain leg vise kit some months later.

I got to here today. The lower sprocket position is to be decided, but I threaded up the chain through the leg, over the upper sprocket, through the side stretcher, under the lower sprocket and zipped it back and forth a few times. Runs real nice.

Rabbit hole coming up next.

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[Scott Winners]

In the planning/ procrastination phase, I had emailed Jim Ritter to ask if I could install the upper sprocket to the top sufrace of my side stretcher instead of the back face of the vise leg.

He emailed back something like "I am not sure, might not be a good idea, send me some pictures." Roughly.

So here are a couple pictures. As built, you can see the top surface (4 inch) of my 4x6 side stretcher and why I didn't bother wasting any more of Jim's time with that problem.

If I had installed the side stretcher as a 6x4 instead of a 4x6 (could do) I would have a enough surface to mount the upper sprocket on top of the side stretcher, but I would have also picked up enough vertical space to fit the upper sprocket on the back of the vise leg where it belongs.

I _think_ it is better to mount both sprockets to the same piece of wood unless your bench is in a shop with museum grade climate control maybe.

So question one for Jim Ritter: Mounting the two sprockets on different pieces of wood is how bad of an idea overall?

Question two, how does this fool thing work really? My best guess is the chain leg kit is sort of like a weight distribution hitch for heavy trailers, but I can't explain why.

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[Scott Winners]

Final conundrum for me is locating the parallel guide. I am clamping up and drilling tomorrow, Lord willing.

The pencil line is as high as I can go with the lower sprocket, lower (greater distance between sprockets) is better. My chop is Doug Fir, so I need some relish on it to do a wedge tapered through mortise in my QSWO parallel guide. And I want to keep the butterflies in the chop, it will be 3-4 years to finish seasoning. Looks like I am about to find out if chopping away a bunch of front stretcher tenon is bad. I wonder how narrow a 5/8 thick parallel guide I can use.

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[Derek Cohen]

I probably owe Derek several beers for using so much of his server time.......


In the planning/ procrastination phase, I had emailed Jim Ritter to ask if I could install the upper sprocket to the top sufrace of my side stretcher instead of the back face of the vise leg.

He emailed back something like "I am not sure, might not be a good idea, send me some pictures." Roughly.

So here are a couple pictures. As built, you can see the top surface (4 inch) of my 4x6 side stretcher and why I didn't bother wasting any more of Jim's time with that problem.

If I had installed the side stretcher as a 6x4 instead of a 4x6 (could do) I would have a enough surface to mount the upper sprocket on top of the side stretcher, but I would have also picked up enough vertical space to fit the upper sprocket on the back of the vise leg where it belongs.

I _think_ it is better to mount both sprockets to the same piece of wood unless your bench is in a shop with museum grade climate control maybe.

So question one for Jim Ritter: Mounting the two sprockets on different pieces of wood is how bad of an idea overall?

Question two, how does this fool thing work really? My best guess is the chain leg kit is sort of like a weight distribution hitch for heavy trailers, but I can't explain why.

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Scott, about those beers ... :D


Now, regarding mounting the sprockets and parallel guide .... just copy what I did. Remember, mine has been going strong for 9 years now!

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Ritter]

Hi Scott, not sure why those two options exist on a bench that is built but the good news is the upper sprocket is the least demanding in terms of installation.all of the forces on the sprocket are diagonally down into the leg, bisecting the angle made by the chain. If installing a piece of wood to hold the one half of the bracket, why not make that piece of wood a bit larger and use it instead of the bracket? Drill the axle hole square and the right height to match the hole in the metal part and use a longer 1/4” bolt. I did something similar on my bench. I actually used the stretcher to support the one side of the lower sprocket, and the parallel beam runs along the stretcher.
The lower sprocket needs to be well secured as those forces are diagonally away from the leg bisecting the angle made by the chain.
Does that help?
Jim

[Jim Ritter]

To answer how does this work. I’m not sure how a weight distribution system works for a heavy trailer but this is how this works.
as something is clamped in the jaws the bottom of the parallel guide wants to go into the bench because what is clamped is exerting force at the top of the jaw. The pin in the parallel beam is but one way to counteract that force. Since the chain is attached to the jaw near the screw (the closer the better) it doesn’t move, as it travels over the sprockets the one that does the most work is the lower one it ends at the end of the beam restricting its movement inward. Having a chain the right length is key. As Jeremy on YouTube said looking straight at the camera “if you can’t make it perfect, make it adjustable”. The end of the chain on the beam has a threaded stud for that distance just right accounting for even the flex in the chop jaw if there is any.
a parallel beam on an older drafting board works on the same principle.
Jim

[Scott Winners]

My multi-reply fu is not with me tonight.

1. Derek, I cannot do what you did because I don't have access to Jarrah. The more I learn about that tree, the more intimidated I am. Your 1.75" thick Jarrah chop is almost but not quite as stiff as hard/ rock/ red maple at 2.75" thick. Jarrah is ~50% stiffer than hard maple AND also noticeably stronger (10-20%) than northern white oak or northern red oak in modulus of rupture. You are basically working bronze or aluminum with hand tools designed for wood. Hope you like Guiness, it is what I stock in the garage. Folks from down under generally visit Alaska in June. Doug Fir is what I can get.

2. Open invite to all who have paid the six bucks and are going to be in Fairbanks. You may try my vise to see what the fuss is about. I can't promise you more than 15 minutes, I have a high stress day job and take a LOT of call but if you are going to be in town and are curious, pay the six dollars, send me a message and we will work something out. You might need an uber if I am on call. If you have sold me a tool and shipped to Alaska I will move heaven and earth to provide transport and dinner and beer, every seller I have dealt with in the for sale section has been top notch.

3. Progress update:

To line up the chop and leg for cutting the parallel guide mortise I need to have the holes for the screw and chain in perfect alignment. This is another area of the install I have been dreading. I was hoping to use a dowel to prove the 5/8 chain holes were in alignment, but I remembered the button for the chain hole goes under the garter. So I threw the haggis on the fire.

I needed the two tools pictured to install the button at one end of the chain. You might could pop that clip open with a flat screwdriver, but I had the E-ring pliers and used the pictured jaw set. I ended up laying on the floor a few times to be sure the screw was centered in the hole before I marked through the garter onto the chop for the garter screws.

Yes I got the antiqued/ weathered brass garter. Besides being my last day jogging for life, my last day in the Navy was also my last day polishing brass. I did slather the garter with floor wax pretty good at the last minute. I also goobered up the screws real good with floor wax as they were going in, and then pulled out most of the excess wax just as there was about to not be room for a Qtip anymore, then again once the screws were home. Once that brass has a scratch on it I will get out my awl and mark it up for real. You are welcome to polish all the brass you want for as long as you want. The garter screws are not #2 phillips. I think they are #3, bigger than #2, but my correctly fitting bit was not labeled. I used a long handled bit driver for vertical pressure and a 1/4" open ended wrench to apply torque.

My goal here is to build a vise that will last the rest of my life. I don't care if it is pretty, I don't care if it is the strongest vise ever, I just want to not fool with it again. I do hope to some day build a bigger bench and move this vise over, but that wont be a retrofit. I have some concerns about my chop, but when go time happened this was the one board in town I could find, and I went everywhere.

Right now I have it clamped up with with the screw centered in the hole in the chop by the garter, and centered in the hole in the leg by the nut. The chain is in good alignment, it was feeding itself over the sprocket as I closed the screw. I just kept turning the tommy bar until the nut was well seated in the mortise. The chop is square to the benchtop.

I need to drop a couple screws through the nut into the leg. If next winter is dryer than this winter I don't want that nut flopping around in its mortise, and if the nut goes out of alignment far enough to mess with the chain alignment I will have to fool with it (qv). I do not intend for those garter screws to come out until either my unborn grandchildren get to heaven or the chop needs to be replaced.

Once it was clamped up, I did the layout for where the parallel guide needs to go. As drawn I will have 12 inches (axle to axle) vertical between my two spockets. Doing that essentially destroys the butterfly on the front/show face of the chop, but I have enough meat left on the tenon of the front stretcher to not make my blood boil. And I can put in another butterfly no problem.

I could lower the lower sprocket another 1.25" without interfering with the butterfly on the inside of the chop, finish destroying the butterfly on the show face of the chop, and start getting nervous about shear resistance parallel to the grain in Doug Fir.

It looks like Derek did an open mortise and tenon, a bridle joint, to attach his parallel guide to his chop. I respect that Jarrah is hard to photograph. I simply do not trust that joint in this application with Doug Fir. DF is a fabulous softwood. DF is incredibly strong for its weight, excellent modulus of elasticity. Compared to other softwoods it really is the King of the West (North America) but once you get into dovetails and bridle joints it really is a softwood and just doesn't have the ultimate strength of oak or maple. Or Jarrah.

On the one hand I want the spread between the two sprockets as wide as possible, but I also want as much relish as I can get in the DF chop between the through mortise for the parallel guide and the floor end of the chop. Currently my blank for the parallel guide is QSWO at 5/8 thick by plenty plenty long and 3.5 inches width.

Advice requested:

@ Jim Ritter, if I spread the sprocket axles from 12" vertical (minimum in the install guide) to 13.25" vertical (max I can possibly do), what I am gaining?

@ everybody, how wide does my parallel guide have to be? My QSWO stick was ripped and thicknessed about a month ago and has stayed straight in my shop. I am looking for all the vertical freedom I can get, but I can stay at 3.5" width if that will probably last more or less forever. If 3.0" will last forever I will be glad to have that half inch.

Thanks, pictures.

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[Jim Ritter]

The further away the lower sprocket can be the better. The adjustment for parallelism is easier, the action is smoother and the force on the lower sprocket trying to be torn off the leg is less. I can’t remember exactly but can look it up later, my vise can generate 1200 to 1600 PSI if the lower sprocket is equidistant from the screw that same force is exerted on that sprocket and bracket system. My beam is 3x the distance to the top of the jaws so it only has to deal with about 400#. And realizing you are using a short distance and have a softwood bench leg if you have longer screws to mount the brackets I would use them, otherwise keep an eye them in use to see if they loosen up over time.
Jim

[Scott Winners]

As marked up with the sprocket axles 12 inches apart I have 9.5 inches veretical from the bench top to the screw center, 16 vertical inches from the screw center to the current axle of the low sprocket, and when I get the floor wedge system finished I should have about 23 vertical inches from the screw center to the top of the wedge. I fully expect the chain alone to meet 90-99% of my lifetime needs, but I am going to go ahead with the floor wedge now so when I do need it all I have to do is track down the wedge I made in 2021.

[Scott Winners]

Ugh, too many hours at work to buy toys later, no play time. Pushed on through tonight. I used two of the GRK fasteners (#10 by 3 1/8) to secure the nut to the back of the vise leg. I think the screws that came with the Anchora chain kit are going to have to do. The exposed end grain is front stretcher tenon that is about to get butchered. If the screws pull out I will use through bolts and countersink the bolt heads on the front side of the leg to not interfere with the chop.

And I finally have a plan. I am going to stick with the 3.5 width for the parallel guide. That will basically destroy the existing butterfly on the front of the chop, but I saved my butterfly shaped scraps and can drop another one in no problem. That will leave about 3.5 inches of relish on the chop from the parallel guide mortise. If it breaks I would rather replace the chop than have to dip into my small stash of well seasoned white oak for a bigger parallel guide.

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[Jim Ritter]

Hi Scott, long hours I hear you but keep up the good work.
another thing you Gould do to help stabilize that split is to cut a groove in the bottom edge of the chop and fit a cross grain spline. Or when you mount the parallel beam use a cross bolt (head and nut recessed) to fasten everything together.
You had me a little confused at first with the beam on the same side as the screw hub. Those threads on the screw look amazing.
Jim

[Christopher Charles]

Hi Scott,

You'll love it once you get it installed! 3.5 should be plenty for the parallel guide. I have Jim's set up with a german metal screw and it's the bee's knees.

Best,
Chris

[Scott Winners]

I am done working on the bench part of the install. My bench is right side up again, this time to stay. I still have some work to do on the chop and parallel guide. With some slack in it the chain zips back and forth through both through holes and over both sprockets real nice.

The guide is overlong, I marked it up but will double check before I cut it to length tomorrow. Once to length and notched for the bitter end of the chain it will be ready to install in the chop.

The chop needs some weight taken off it, I am not running 11 inches wide floor to bench top forever, hoping to make floor wedges out of the offcuts. And a bevel on the chop where it meets the bench so I can't blame the vise for my crappy dovetails. And maybe a spline like Jim Ritter mentioned. And another butterfly. I had a couple bungee cords on the wood screw to protect the garter screws from impact forces while I was cutting the through mortise in the chop for the parallel guide. I have a different plan for the last butterfly.

Should be an epic Friday night at my place tomorrow.

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[Scott Winners]

Waiting for the glue to dry. Still waiting.

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One source I didn't credit in post one is Chris Schwarz' first work bench book, the c 2010 "Workbench Design." At least one leg vise install in there where he referred to a through mortise with tapered wedges in the tenon. I internet searched "wedged mortise and tenon" and came to a CS article in the pop wodworking archives. The tenon end of my parallel guide is all set up. I ended up cutting two new wedges from a different scrap because I like the grain orientation better. I hope I cut the right joint, but I _think_ I know which way the force vectors are pointing. 50-50 shot.

I was able to use the offcut I had cut the wedges from as a chisel guide to cut the corresponding taper in the mortise of the chop.

To plane the other saw cut I am going to have to roll the bench, probably on its back, to get at the surface with the saw marks on it.

With wet glue on the chop/ parallel guide joint I have it assembled with a 2x4 scrap top and bottom. Yes, I got a couple planes out, I really like this vise a lot, and the glue isn't even dry on the parallel guide.

29 more minutes for the glue to dry one hour, time for a snack.

[Scott Winners]

Calling it a day. I turned the bench up on end to get at the last side surface of the chop. Retrofits suck, do not do this.

Also I am now missing one screw for the chain leg kit. I inventoried the box the day it came in, and again a week or two later when I tried to get my rough in straight, and again when I started the install. The box was taped back shut between the three inventory checks. I am now missing a #12 x 1 inch wood screw, and I am confident it is the shop superintendent to blame. She simply cannot resist round shiny things and is fast as a lightning bolt.

I am using 1:1:1 BLO, thinner and oil based poly as a wipe on finish. One coat should be plenty. Tomorrow I should be able to finish up everything that remains, with the chop attached to the bench. Except for a trip to the hardware store.

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FWIW I did email Anchora about the lost screw at 6PM my time (10 PM on the east coast) hoping for a return email Saturday AM and instead got a return phone call within an hour. I know what screw to get to replace the one my shop superintendent has confiscated. Jim Ritter said Joe Screw is fine, #12 by one inch with a head to fit whatever is in the Ell bracket. Mine is counter sunk, so plain old wood screw for me.

I should mention leather. I went to my local purveyor for a 12x12 inch piece of garment weight suede today. My plan is to do the chop but have inventory ready if I need to do the bench side too. I ended up with one quarter of the hide of a swine, for fifteen and three quarters American dollars. Probably free in the lower 48 + shipping to Alaska. I will tack it out on a scrap of plywood and sand the hair side to a little rough so the epoxy can take hold, and have the muscle side facing the workpiece in the vise. If you want smoke tanned moose hide I can get it for you and ship, but it will be many many dollars for a very small piece, about $100 plus shipping for a piece maybe 24x24. I stayed away from brightly colored (dyed) pieces and bought as close to natural color as I could find.

[William Fretwell]

Scott I lined my tail vise jaws with leather after my son was using it to undo metal bolts. Smoke tanned moose hide is rather soft, good for gloves. Don't use epoxy however as you will want to replace the leather periodically. A contact adhesive is all you need to stop it falling off.

[Scott Winners]

Item is in service, and so far I love it. Capacious enough to swallow my old vise whole. I messed up the wall face to screw hole distance for the ell bracket but had a left over wedge from the guide/ chop joinery. I did find some underlayment scrap laying around the garage and made dust ruffles.

And the chain does what I wanted it to do. When I think of a weight distribution hitch for towing, I am thinking of some torsion bars that keep the weight of the load on the trailer's axle, and off the hitch ball as the rig transitions among flat, uphill and downhill. What I hoped the chain would do is keep the weight of the chop on the nut and off the parallel guide. No rollerblades or skateboards were harmed with this install.

As I was adjusting the chain tension I got the weight distribution I wanted before I was done tightening the chain, the end result is really nice. As specified in the directions, I figured out I need about a quarter turn on the tommy bar to have oodles of clamping force, mine is set the chop comes into parallel with the front leg right as the quarter turn of clamping after first contact is made. So with no load the top of the chop is closer to the bench, go look at Derek's writeup, mine came out like that.

Once I have the jaws open more than about six inches I get some drooping even with the chain, but I am rarely going to be dealing with anything thicker than 12/4 rough.

I haven't installed any leather to the jaw faces yet, but I have some if I need it. I cut the chop down to stand 1/4 inch proud of the benchtop here at the very end of my dry season. I will probably wait until July or so to cut the chop flush to the bench top. My college aged daughter is sick and tired or her mom making remarks about dad's big screw and his one enormous nut. The cat only got away with one shiny thing out of a box full of interesting items, I did find the #12 x 1 inch wood screw at team orange, in Stainless it was $1.18 for a two pack.

Early days for sure, but I fully expect this vise to last the rest of my life and work well the entire time.

[Scott Winners]

One week in and I am overall ecstatic. I do plan to post in this thread again in about a month, late August 2020 near the end of my wet season, and Feb/Mar 2022 at the end of my next dry season. I do expect all the parts to move around a little bit with the seasonal humidity changes.

The bad:
1. Retrofits suck, but I am already over it. This upgrade was worth the trouble.
2. I put the garter screws in too early. Next time I will use my lathe to turn a big dowel the same as the hole for the vise screw. Drill the big hole first, drop the custom dowel in, then drill the chain hole and parallel guide mortise while the leg and chop are still clamped together. I could not use my radial arm saw to cut a taper on the top of the chop after the garter screws were in.
3. Vise leg post strength and benchtop real estate. I will try to address these together within three weeks.
4. Not sure where to put my planing stop, the 3.25" chop and massive hub are quite noticeable to lean over with the planing stop at the end of my bench.
5. 16/4 Doug Fir chop is suspect for longevity.
6. Dremel for chain length. I had the chain install instructions open on my computer in the office adjacent to my shop space for the install. I started with a file, with the bench standing on one end since the garter screws were already in. Once I got frustrated with that I read the directions again and remembered I have a dremel tool. Adjusting the chain length with a dremel tool takes about three minutes and my reading comprehension scores should be very low. If you have a friend within 30 minutes of your house with a dremel tool it is worth two round trips to adjust the chain length with a dremel instead of a file.
7. I put the wrong joint on my parallel guide/ chop interface. I should have put a shoulder on it. I will draw that up and be ready when/ if what I have breaks.

The good news:
1. All my goals for a lifetime do anything vise are exceeded.
2. I took my parallel guide to a local millwork shop and had it thicknessed to 0.630. Brilliant. When I drilled 0.625 I was able to pare the mortise in the direction it needed to go for best alignment. It was still a mallet tight fit, so I got the guide started, squirted some glue down in there, spread the glue on the mortise walls with a Qtip, hammered the guide home and toweled off the excess.
3. I can turn the tommy bar with my knee. That idea of "unused appendage" from Jay Bates just would not get out of my head until I tried turning the tommy bar with my knee. I can do it, and I can sleep now.

Neutral findings:
1. My lightweight 48" bench was easy to wrestle on the floor into different positions during the install.
2. My next chop will very likely be a glue up.
3. Thin plywood does keep dirt off the moving parts, but reverberates like a drum when the shooting board leaned against it rattles with minor bench top operations.

I haven't put any leather on the working surface of the chop face yet, but probably will very soon. The grip is good, but Dour Fir is not good at sharp edges, like the top of the chop. Shortlist also includes anti-wracking a la Derek. I have a deck of cards, but using it means my workpiece has to be higher above the benchtop for cutting tenon cheeks, with more vibration.

[Curt Putnam]

Scott,

I really appreciate this thread and have read it with much interest. I, too, have a Lake Erie screw and Jim's Chain Leg Vise. I bought the screw almost 9 years ago and have yet to complete the bench due to a combination of medical and life events.

Question: Can one install Jim's chain in a new installation without kneeling at all or bending much?

[Jim Ritter]

If you build the leg/chop assembly (essentially the vise) first it can all be done As a unit. Then build the bench. If the chop is removed to facilitate the bench assembly then yes one would need to bend down to thread the chain and attach it to the back of the parallel beam.
Jim

[Curt Putnam]

Thanks Jim!


I'll have to think through what it would take to build as a separate unit. Off the top of my head it would be easier than a crisscross which wants the same sort of unit build. Drilling is easier and there is whole lot less routing. Now< i need to figure where the parallel guide would go in relation to the stretcher

[Scott Winners]

Thanks Jim!


I'll have to think through what it would take to build as a separate unit. Off the top of my head it would be easier than a crisscross which wants the same sort of unit build. Drilling is easier and there is whole lot less routing. Now< i need to figure where the parallel guide would go in relation to the stretcher

The main thing (seems to me) is how heavy is your chop going to be, and how far are you going to be opening the chop routinely. I think the heavier your chop is and the wider you want the jaws with regularity, the more thought you want to give to spreading the two sprockets more than 12 inches apart.

My chop is Doug Fir, 20%MC in the middle a couple months ago, and 3 1/8 thick. With 12 inches of spread on the sprockets the chop starts drooping when the jaws are open about 6 inches. Given I mostly work in 8/4 rough and thinner stock, I am in high cotton.

I have been fiddling with some tenon cheeks on some table aprons this week, they are nominal 1x4x13 inches. I am dropping them down beside the screw to get the saw close to the bench top and reduce vibration when sawing. As built the top of my screw is 8" below the top of my bench. I rarely bring home 8/4 more than 10" wide and could easily have (2020 hindsight) raised the screw up 2" or so. Reducing the mouth depth to 6" wouldn't affect my ordinary operations at all, but I could have added 2" to the socket separation and potentially increased the max clamping force at the top of the jaw, and having the sprockets spread further might let me open the jaws wider without the chop drooping.

Do keep an eye on the nut width when raising the screw, with respect to the bench top. The current suggestion on the Lake Erie website when I did my build was to leave at least 3/4" of full thickness nut for 360 degrees around the threaded opening. On the product I got from Lake Erie I could have cut a fair bit off the length of the nut as installed, but about jack doodle off the width.

Pic is a nominal 8x8 in white spruce. I chopped the mortise with it held down to my bench top with holdfasts, but I think the vise has it tight enough I could cut a tenon on the end with ease. I have no beef with benchcrafted or their crisscross system. A lot of folks have it installed and love it. When I watch their (bench crafted) youtubes of spinning that wheel I think of the arthritis in my pinkie, and arthritis in my ring finger, and middle finger and index finger and my thumbs and I just can't commit to that little wheel. With the 8x8 pictured, I set it on my benchtop, measured it at 7.5 x 7.5 actual. Then I took the backlash out of the wooden screw (like depth adjuster on Bailey) open the chop 7 3/4 turns, held the block in there with both hands, rotated the tommy bar with my knee enough to get a grip, let go, finished torquing the tommy bar with whichever hand was easier, done.

Having said all that, the parallel guide needs to go "as low as possible" to get the 12 inch separation between the sprockets. The issue here, same with the routed groove for the benchcrafted crisscross, is the tenon on the front stretcher that goes into the vise leg.

Where do you want your front stretcher off the floor? Mine is currently at 4.5 inches off the floor, I want to drop it about half an inch for my next build. I don't hook my safety toed workboots under the stretcher every time I plane any little thing, but it can be handy.

Once you know the distance between the front stretcher bottom face and the floor, the next question is how seasoned is the material of your undercarraige? Mine is probably going to be green. A single drawbored pin should be fine for workbenches. You might look at George Washington's barn for wheat threshing, lots of pics at the Mount Vernon webpage. All those joints that I noticed, single drawbored peg. If you are building a bridge 2 pins per M/T joint might be needed. If you are building a railroad bridge, double and triple pins will be the order of the day.

Besides draw boring the tenon back towards the shoulder to pull the joint tight, you can also off set your draw bore down towards the ground, so as your front stretcher dries and shrinks the tenon on the stretcher is still weight bearing against the bottom surface of the mortise in the vise leg. Otherwise, your front stretcher and all your expensive benchplanes on that lower shelf might end up hanging on the drawbored pin.

For my next build, besides lowering the front stretcher to suit me, I will use a haunched tenon for the front stretcher just like a dining table or end table. The tenon will be full length and at least 3x the thickness of the pin in the lower part so I can pull the joint tight with the horizontal portion of the drawbore, keep the stretcher firmly on the floor of the mortise in the vise leg with the vertical component of the drawbore, and have a full length tenon out past the pin to minimize relish failure. I fully agree with Chris Schwarz that 5/8 or 3/4 pin diameter is more than adequate.

I am thinking of a shouldered joint, like in post 9 this thread where the full width front stretcher comes into a shoulder cut in the vise leg so the full thickness of the stretcher is weightbearing on the shoulder cut in the vise leg. I didn't know any better when I used two half inch pins per joint, but I did draw bore both for tight joint and towards the ground. All the shrinkage in the front stretcher shows at the top of the joint.

Above that, I am willing to cut away a bunch of the front stretcher tenon, put a haunch on it, to make room for the parallel guide mortise or criss cross groove. Depending on space constraints, putting the haunch on the lower portion of the front stretcher tenon is probably ok, but it will reduce the bearing surface from the front stretcher onto the vise leg. Like you are going to park a team of Percherons on that shelf or something.

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[Curt Putnam]

Scott, Thank you and WOW!

I bought my chain and screw back in 2012. Much of the undercarriage lumber has been sitting around since then so the MC is at equilibrium I would think. Do not yet have chop material but I want drier than 20%.

Do not yet have the skateboard parts and have not begun to consider the ramifications of sprocket spacing. I do know that I would like a wider rather tan thinner chop (with reference to the bench edge.)

I am still at the point of trying to figure out how to build whatever design after having completed the leg/vise/chop as a unit. I need to complete the lower assembly on my existing bench and then lift to ground before installing top part(s). I had already decided to do a split top and was working on the mortices for the 3rd leg but then a I screwed up the tenon on the long stretcher and stopped to re-evaluate whether I wanted to proceed with the undersized mortices already cit or scrap it all and start over.

As usual, like has intervened. LOML wants closet units - so much plywood is going to be cut up. Fortunately, she bought me a Sawstop PCS with which to do the project. At least, there will be solid maple involved for drawer fronts and cabinet doors.

[Scott Winners]

End of warm/wet season here. Got some frost damage in the garden, the wood stove is lit right now, the Canada geese are headed south. I haven't put the winter tires on my truck yet, but probably less than a month before they go on.

Short version, I love love love this vise. Everything I have needed to do, no problem. Everything. Just get the vise closed up enough to hold whatever thing, another quarter turn on the Tommy bar, golden.

I did have one hiccough with seasonal movement. Something was catching somewhere, gosh, mid to late June when I was well into my wet season. I was having to kick the foot end of the chop when vising stuff less than two inches thick to get the system working again. I emailed Jim at Anchora about it. He got back to me quick by quick, more or less "I have never heard of that exactly, but you could check these two or three things I have seen before." It wasn't any of those things. What happened was my QSWO parallel guide picked up some height in the wet season so it was a bit too big (tall) for the mortise in the vise leg. So the top edge of the guide was catching on the top front corner of its mortise. I just dealt with it for a while, kicking the floor end of the chop when I needed to get it to close. In the back of my mind I figured I was burnishing a rub mark on something somewhere. It finally ticked me off enough to do something about it. I found a burnished rub mark on the top edge of my parallel guide where it was catching, as above. I took of something like 1/32 or 1/16 off just in the inch closest to the chop in mid July or so, with no ongoing problems since. I do fully expect the vise to get a little sloppier in my looming dry/cold season. So far I have not needed to grab a wrench to adjust chain tension. Will update one last time in Feb 2022 about how sloppy it gets, but not expecting to throw the vise screw in my woodstove and order ACME threaded metal.

I am going to put the dust cover back on now that wet season is over. I took it off in June so I could see the works and try to troubleshoot the catching. I haven't had to take any more wood off the top edge of the parallel guide, so I should be good to go. The nut and screw were looking pretty darn pristine when I took the outer dust cover off. I will get busy like Susie Homemaker in there befroe I put the outer dustcover back on, maybe a feather duster. The covers, as a pair (see post #23 this thread) is basically building a bass drum, but it does keep the dust out pretty effectively and I moved my shooting board to the other end of the bench shelf.

I have not needed to build a parallel guide guide like in Derek's "shop made tools" section. I had sent him an email about it, but have since noticed he prefers to be PM'd here. I was ready to build one, I know where I would put it, but I haven't needed it. My chop moves like an elephant's butt when closing the vise, ponderous side to side swaying, but once one edge contacts the work (my chop is 11 inches wide), the other edge closes up as the screw keeps turning.

I have not yet needed to put any leather in the vise. I have some ready to go, but so far no problem. If I need it I will try 3M #77 contact adhesive before resorting to epoxy.

I will someday come up with a thumbscrew to function as "anti wracking for leg vise" as also artfully and fully explained on Derek's website, also in the shop made tools section. For now I am still using a deck of cards, but I fully understand the expediency of having a thumscrew like that not sprouted above the benchtop. Derek's is a good idea, a deck of cards is frequently in the way. I want to use a fairly coarse threaded screw so it will move in and out quick with just a few turns. It might be that Dereek has access to much better steel angle brackets than I do. When I look at my local harware store metal bits I don't see his solution working on my bench, I am afraid I would just tear the add-on bits out of my Doug Fir bench, or bend the steel bits. One nice thing about an eleven inch wide chop is I can put the deck of cards way over to the left to help keep them out of the way.

The biggest drawback to this vise that I predict is ongoing end checking on the top of the chop. As soon as construction lumber prices come down I will bring in enough flat sawn and quartersawn Doug Fir 2x4 to season it myself and then glue up my next chop with shop seasoned DF. I worry about dribbling sawdust into the end checks and then the chop swelling in the next wet season with no where to go but outwards.

I had also planned to address benchtop real estate near the vise leg with this post. I am still flummoxed. The hub on the Lake Erie 2x screw is enormous, and my Doug Fir chop measures (still a little green) 2 13/16. Total I have to swing my hips out about 8 inches to get around the vise hub. Not good when trying to plane a surface a flat. I could put the planing stop between the bench legs instead of outboard, but I only have 34 inches of my 48" bench top remaining. I love the vise, I think for the next build I will push the vise leg out towards the end of the bench as far as I can go, leaving room for a working column of holdfst holes, and build a longer top so the planing stop can go between the front legs.

I'll plan to update one last time in Feb/Mar 2022, end of coming dry season; but I fully expect I will still be ecstatic.

[Christopher Charles]

Scott,

Very glad to see the vise worked out well. That's quite a beast! I too have had little trouble with seasonal changes--I have to adjust the chain tension about one and a half turns of the stop nut every six months to keep it working butter smooth, but is remains perfectly functional if I do nothing. Hope you enjoy the next project! And this might be sacrilege, but one of my favorite applications of my chain drive vise is this :)

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Best,
Chris

[Scott Winners]

one of my favorite applications of my chain drive vise is

I have a blue million pictures in my phone the last few months, and I can't pick "one." Everything I have thrown at it, this Lake Erie 2x/ AYS combo has handled.

I was impressed by the 8x8 scrap pictured earlier. I wouldn't chop a mortise on that in this vise, but for layout and sawing tenons or shoulders, no problem.

I was impressed when I was making a wrench for my milspec fuel cans, a different thread here: https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?291959-How-can-I-lay-out-mark-up-this-shape&highlight= for the fuel tank lid wrench I closed a 3/4 sheet of plywood (by the edges) in the vise after drilling and got the whole interior shape out with a jigasaw, not having to repostition in the vise.

I have had ax/adze length oval handles in there with a deck of cards, no problem.

Nominal square/ rectangular stock up to 8x8 inches is bliss. If I had one I would toss a 12x12 inch scrap in there just to see, but I am confident the vise could handle it. It was total close to US$600 plus a week of agravating free time, but it should last my life time and it just doesn't rack. No wracking as it tightens down on anyting I have thrown at it. Yes it waddles on its way home, but once it starts closing up it finishes closing up square and stays square (or conformed) as it gets torqued in.

Open invite to any registered user here, if you are coming to Fairbanks and want to try my lifetime vise just drop me a line. My call schedule is already locked to January 2022, so I do need at least three months notice to guarantee you more than 10 minutes in my shop playing with the vise, otherwise my phones are likely to interupt. I would buy again, but for the money I am more likely to move this vise forward to my next bigger bench and put something smaller on this bench when I upgrade.

Six months in the Lake Erie 2x and the AYS chain system are both keepers. I am not likely to chop on it. When I get around to say shaping a chair seat with an adze, not a chore for workholding with a vise, I got holdfasts for that. I don't even chop mortises for rinkly dink tables in a vise. If I am going to use a mortise chisel I got hold fasts and a benchtop for that,