Hammer shaper spindle -help needed

[Mike Stelts]

I'm cleaning up the used Hammer B3 I bought last week and am now working on the shaper. The spindle seems stuck, or I don't know what I'm doing...

Any advice on pulling the spindle out of the machine? (I want to install an 1.25" spindle instead)
Can someone tell me the name of the tools I can use to loosen the collet? (Hopefully, they're commonly available.)
Does the collet loosen counterclockwise or clockwise? (tight threads, tough to be confident)

Many thanks,
Mike

[Wes Grass]

ER-20 collet, standard right hand thread. Wrenches are readily available, but that's a 'mini' collet nut with the slots. A standard nut has a hex. So you need the correct wrench. One of many sources: https://www.maritool.com/Tool-Holders-Wrenches-Tool-Holder-Wrenches/c23_85_562/p133/ER20M-Collet-Wrench/product_info.html

:del irrelevant 700 info

[Steve Rozmiarek]

You can just remove the spindle as Wes said, with the stuck collet left as is, so you can put it on your bench to work on. Or if you don't intend to use this spindle, forget about getting the collet off and just swap in the 1 1/4" spindle. On my Felder there is also a belt tension lever in addition to Wes's list. I think the Hammers are similar, one of their owners will stop by soon probably.

[Mike Stelts]

Thanks, Wes & Steve. I'll look for the pin and belt tension lever. They didn't show it in this Felder video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4Q_-6DqZ94), so it must be different than the B3. I may use the collet spindle in the future, so it's good to have the tools. Can you tell me the name of the 2-pin tool for the piece pictured? I have several of them from other tools and auction lots; but, of course, they're the wrong size.

[Wes Grass]

So it's entirely possible I'm FOS on this. That video is the newer version that came out about 5 years ago, by the date on the video. An older series from 11 years ago doesn't show removing the spindle.

I've looked thru a bunch of old sale flyers (up to 2011) I downloaded, and not one of them describes the Hammer, or 500 series, as having an interchangeable spindle. The listings for the 700 and 900 series do.

edit: As Rod confirmed, I *AM* completely FOS ;-)

Added: The pin holes are most likely for a threaded collar that retains the bearing. You won't need a spanner for that unless you need to replace the bearings. But there's likely to be some sort of spindle lock so you can change cutters.

[Rod Sheridan]

Wes and Mike, until Hammer introced the MF spindle system, you ordered your machine with a shaper spindle, or a router spindle from the factory, they were not removable.

The shaper spindle was solid with a 30mm or 1.25” sleeve available. I have both sleeves for my machine as well as the spacers and caps.

Mike, contact Felder with your serial number for confirmation, they may be able to supply replacement parts...Regards, Rod.

[Mike Stelts]

I have a 2014 model, so it’s probably the old style. I’ll see if Felder can get me into a shaper spindle for a reasonable price.

[Rick Potter]

I must be wrong, but am I the only one who sees a Router bit in a collet, not a shaper cutter in that upside down pic?

[Mike Stelts]

Rick, it's a router bit in a spindle to accommodate them. I want to replace this spindle with a 1.25" shaper spindle.

[Rod Sheridan]

I must be wrong, but am I the only one who sees a Router bit in a collet, not a shaper cutter in that upside down pic?

Yes :D

Regards, Rod.

[Rick Potter]

OK, I ask because I have a Felder 2001 1.25 shaper spindle for a KF700. I also have a router spindle for the same machine. Both brand new.

The router spindle comes with a special wrench that fits the collet, and both spindles have grooves on the bottom area that apparently fit a locking pawl on the machine. Sorry, I no longer have the machine to check that.

No idea if the Hammer is the same, but perhaps this will help.

[Erik Loza]

Rick, the Hammer and Felder spindles are different. I think the OP's machine has a "fixed" spindle system, which was the only way they were available up until a few years ago. In other words, non-interchangeable and what you ordered is what you had for the long haul. Prior to the "MF System" that is now common on the Hammers, you had to choose router spindle or traditional shaper spindle when you ordered a B3. It seems like the original owner opted for the router spindle.

Erik

[Mike Stelts]

It sounds like I must be content with a 5Hp router in this 2014 B3. It looks like the inside of the hollow spindle is just under 3/4". Any chance someone makes a spindle insert to hold shaper cutters?

The collet assembly was disassembled (unharmed) with 2 pipe wrenches and 3 rounds of PB Blaster. I purchased the collet wrench (thanks, Wes). Does someone know what size spanner wrench fits? Apparently, I need this to tighten the collet (without a pipe wrench).

[Erik Loza]

It sounds like I must be content with a 5Hp router in this 2014 B3. It looks like the inside of the hollow spindle is just under 3/4". Any chance someone makes a spindle insert to hold shaper cutters?

The collet assembly was disassembled (unharmed) with 2 pipe wrenches and 3 rounds of PB Blaster. I purchased the collet wrench (thanks, Wes). Does someone know what size spanner wrench fits? Apparently, I need this to tighten the collet (without a pipe wrench).

Mike, the larger diameter panel-raisers actually work pretty OK on the router spindle. True that it is not an actual shaper but I wouldn't consider it a total mistake. Didn't you get it for a steal? You still have a K3 sliding table saw, which is pretty nice in and of itself.

Erik

[Wes Grass]

Are there no flats for an open end wrench under the collet nut? Seems odd to use a pin spanner in what appears to be a piece threaded onto the spindle. My luck, it would come loose *every time* I tried to tighten the collet nut.

Does it have a 4 step pulley for the belt? The shaper spindle would have 3, 6, 8, and 10k *. Apparently the new ones are the same, so swapping in the router spindle doesn't give you more speed like the 700 style. For what it's worth, the 700 router spindle uses smaller bearings than the shaper spindle, as the larger bearings would be running at their limits at 15k. These appear to be a 'quill' setup, like a drill press, or Bridgeport mill if that sounds better. So likely they used the same bearings on both. Maybe. If so, and the 4 step pulley setup is there, a spindle for shaper cutters *could* be made for it. Not exactly cheap, but I suspect factory parts wouldn't be either, if even available. It all depends on how bad you want it I guess.

The pictures in the old flyers, and the new 2020 catalog, appear to be the same basic shaper system. So maybe some research (friends in high places) could cross reference bearing and quill part numbers and see if perhaps the new MF system could be swapped in.

As for putting a shaper adapter in there, something somewhat similar came up awhile ago regarding running cutters like that on a 30 taper router spindle. Gave me the chills a bit. I think this is far smaller and weaker than that.

* Those old sale flyers come in handy sometimes.

[Mike Stelts]

I found a pin spanner that could be bent to size. Good enough to snug the collet. Yes, here are flats for a wrench on the spindle, which is another option. (Whoops, I forgot about that, because I had earlier dismissed using it when I needed pulling so hard on the collet that I risked destroying the threads.) Now, that the collet works as it should, the flats are another option. This problem is solved.

There is a 4-step pulley on the motor and one pulley on the spindle.

I'm settling into my K3 with a handsome built-in router, which is a still a nice setup. The only lingering problem is getting the the router to raise and lower easily. I must be overlooking something or there's grime in the sleeve that will eventually give up after a couple cans of WD40.

[Rod Sheridan]

I would contact Felder field service with a serial number and see if they"ll supply the parts to convert it to a shaper.

I have never seen one with a router spindle because everyone wanted a shaper, and you had to select the path when you ordered it.....Rod.

454900454897454898454899454896

[Wes Grass]

Looks like the shaper bearings seat directly in the quill, and the router spindle has smaller ones in adapters. Somewhat like the 700 series. Parts still available? But I'm still wondering if the quill and bearings are the same in the new style. So you could switch ... but be stuck with 10k for a router.

[Mike Stelts]

I contacted Felder. Replacement parts are available; but, they are $1500.

[Rod Sheridan]

I contacted Felder. Replacement parts are available; but, they are $1500.

Mike, if it were me I would go with the shaper option.

You'll have a 4 speed tilting spindle shaper with sliding table for $1,500, a bargain. The router isn't even in the same universe as having a shaper.

I presume that with the router spindle option you do not have reverse?

Regards, Rod.

[Jared Sankovich]

I would be inclined to spend the 1500, since you already have the machine.

That assumes the $1500 includes everything to convert it over to the full shaper build.

Much beyond that and you can find a decent used 130 class shaper (assuming you are open to 3phase)

[Mike Stelts]

Thanks for the recommendations. While $1500 is reasonable to obtain a 4.8 Hp, tilting, reversing shaper, with a sliding table, I'm concerned about the spindle installation. This looks like a major undertaking, given the cramped space and the lack of installation or tune-up instructions (which seems to be a Felder theme). I'll get accustomed to my first sliding saw and see if the built-in router table proves useful. (I still have the Delta 3 Hp, 3/4" shaper.) My "fingers-crossed purchase" became a good investment of money and refurbishment time, instead of great. For now, I'm satisfied with "good", and have learned a great deal from the experience.

[Wes Grass]

Yeah, that's a lot of money. But that's not much more than just a spindle for a 900 or Format machine. Even the 700 spindles are ~400 and up. I sure wouldn't want to have to buy a router spindle for mine now.

Reverse is good question, hadn't thought of that. Not a deal killer, but limits your options with some special cutters.