Window & door screen build: Domino, pocket screws, or M &T joints?

[Aaron Rosenthal]

My issue is as follows:
I have a 90 year old house which, in the current local market, will be torn down to make a townhouse complex when we sell. That's market conditions and a change in the local zoning conditions.
My old fir windows, single pane, are in good shape but have no screens, nor does the front door. I use shrink plastic for draft-proofing in the winter.
I promised my family screens on the windows and a screen door this year, no matter what.
I'm not the worlds greatest furniture maker, so....

Planning on using 1x3 nominal fir on the window screens and 1x6 for the screen door. Now my dilemma;

I have a dedicated mortising machine if I use M&T joints joining the rails and stiles, but it's time consuming to build;
I have a Kreg setup, so that might work.
Everyone drools over the Domino system, so that's a possibility, but around here, they go for $1500.00 plus tax; while I know they hold their value, and I could probably swing it, I can't think of another build in my future that would use it (but when you have a hammer.....)

I'm an old (in both senses) contractor and handyman, and and I have a hard time getting out of my cost/benefit mindset.
Please, help me with making this choice!

[Jeff Bartley]

Aaron,

If I were in your shoes I’d just use the mortiser you already have and spend more on high quality vertical grained fir. I would never use a Kreg system for either of those. The Domino would work great but that really increases the cost of the project.

I would also very carefully mill all the stock to ensure all parts are straight! Jeff

[Brian Holcombe]

If a domino is more efficient than your stand alone mortiser than your stand alone mortiser needs some work. There is no way that should be the case if your mortiser is functioning properly and has a good stop system.

[johnny means]

My Domino yielded an ROI of several hundred percent on the first job. It was an intricately framed structure with hundreds of mortises joining straight and curved parts. It turned what I projected to be a weeks work into a long afternoon. Fast forward 20 years, and I'm realizing that time is the only real resource worth anything. Unless, the cost was prohibitive, I'd drop a few shekels in a heartbeat. Worst case, you can easily off load a slightly used Domino at 80% of retail.

[Dave Seng]

I don't want to spend any of your money - but I'm in a similar position - have four screen doors to build and have to get on it pretty quick the way the snow is melting around here. I'm planning on dowelling the joints. It'll be the first project that I use my brand-spanking-new Jessem dowelling jig. Probably not quite as good as mortise and tenon joints, but I'm thinking that the dowels should make for some pretty strong joints. I wouldn't trust pocket screws for joints in pieces that will be moved around.

[Brian Holcombe]

My Domino yielded an ROI of several hundred percent on the first job. It was an intricately framed structure with hundreds of mortises joining straight and curved parts. It turned what I projected to be a weeks work into a long afternoon. Fast forward 20 years, and I'm realizing that time is the only real resource worth anything. Unless, the cost was prohibitive, I'd drop a few shekels in a heartbeat. Worst case, you can easily off load a slightly used Domino at 80% of retail.

He’s talking about making window frames not joining curved structures, a stationary machine is a better approach in my experience.

[Jim Matthews]

Why not just half laps?

If the screens are press fit, the joint would be easy to trim out.

[Warren Lake]

mortise and tennon

[John TenEyck]

OP, use the tools and knowledge you have. Don't use pocket screws on a door frame; they won't hold up. No argument that a Domino would do a fine job but there's no need to buy one for this project. Mortise and tenon, loose tenons, half lap, or bridle joints would all work.

John

[Jim Matthews]

mortise and tennon

In 1x3? A 1/3" tenon tenon in Fir isn't robust, particularly on a door.

[Warren Lake]

didnt look at the dimensions screen fine but material for the door should be thicker no matter how jointed. If a domino will work for any joint then a mortise and tennon will work.

[Jim Dwight]

I have a benchtop hollow chisel mortiser and a domino XL. I have not used the hollow chisel mortiser since getting the domino. I have not used a floor standing mortiser and if it has a good clamp to hold the work down while withdrawing the first stroke it might be fairly efficient - at the mortise. But you still have to make the tenon. With a domino it's two plunges and you have a joint (assuming you have some tenons to insert). I make the tenon stock in batches out of scraps so I generally have some when I need it. You can, of course, buy them. I can't see how even a good hollow chisel mortiser is as quick as a domino. I have used oversize more typical dimension tenons several times with my domino and even with cutting those tenons it was quicker than cutting an integral tenon.

But for a few windows and a door I don't know if it is worthwhile to get a domino. The OP will have to decide. There isn't really anything better about a domino mortise and tenon joint than a more traditional joint. It is just quicker to make. But buying it, making the joints, and then reselling it is also very possible. They are popular for a reason. I find myself using a lot more mortise and tenon joints now because they are so simple and quick to make. I got the XL because I did not want to be limited to 1 inch deep and 3/8 wide (10mm) joints. But it is even more than the smaller one. Another big advantage for me is it takes up very little space in the shop.

[Doug Dawson]

My issue is as follows:
I have a 90 year old house which, in the current local market, will be torn down to make a townhouse complex when we sell. That's market conditions and a change in the local zoning conditions.
My old fir windows, single pane, are in good shape but have no screens, nor does the front door. I use shrink plastic for draft-proofing in the winter.
I promised my family screens on the windows and a screen door this year, no matter what.
I'm not the worlds greatest furniture maker, so....
You know you can just go out and _buy_ window screens and screen doors, right? You’re a contractor, so you know how to make them look pretty good.

My wife and I have the same discussion every year about tomatoes.

[Brian Holcombe]

I have a benchtop hollow chisel mortiser and a domino XL. I have not used the hollow chisel mortiser since getting the domino. I have not used a floor standing mortiser and if it has a good clamp to hold the work down while withdrawing the first stroke it might be fairly efficient - at the mortise. But you still have to make the tenon. With a domino it's two plunges and you have a joint (assuming you have some tenons to insert). I make the tenon stock in batches out of scraps so I generally have some when I need it. You can, of course, buy them. I can't see how even a good hollow chisel mortiser is as quick as a domino. I have used oversize more typical dimension tenons several times with my domino and even with cutting those tenons it was quicker than cutting an integral tenon.

But for a few windows and a door I don't know if it is worthwhile to get a domino. The OP will have to decide. There isn't really anything better about a domino mortise and tenon joint than a more traditional joint. It is just quicker to make. But buying it, making the joints, and then reselling it is also very possible. They are popular for a reason. I find myself using a lot more mortise and tenon joints now because they are so simple and quick to make. I got the XL because I did not want to be limited to 1 inch deep and 3/8 wide (10mm) joints. But it is even more than the smaller one. Another big advantage for me is it takes up very little space in the shop.

The goal to efficiency is more than just cutting the joints. It is cutting them so that they locate the parts perfectly each time. This minimizes finishing work. So while a domino and a freestanding mortiser are similarly fast, I know that the joints I cut with freestanding machinery are well positioned and perfectly square. I can assemble the frames without measuring and they are spot on. I usually measure one per batch.

For dominos their is slack in the joint and the parts don’t self align as well as precision cut joinery.

I cut a typical window sized mortise with the hollow chisel in approx 15 seconds including clamping. Or I cut it with the Maka in less time but I assume his machine is not a Maka.

[Doug Dawson]

The goal to efficiency is more than just cutting the joints. It is cutting them so that they locate the parts perfectly each time. This minimizes finishing work. So while a domino and a freestanding mortiser are similarly fast, I know that the joints I cut with freestanding machinery are well positioned and perfectly square. I can assemble the frames without measuring and they are spot on. I usually measure one per batch.

For dominos their is slack in the joint and the parts don’t self align as well as precision cut joinery.
Brian, do you find the Domino to be useful in any of your work?

[keith wootton]

i made my screen door from milled down 2x6 redwood deck material 1" thick. mortise and tennon pinned with redwood dowels. self closing hinges that slam it shut just like old time sceeen doors. has held up and looks good after ten years. i did splurge on bronze screen material. that took a while to get and was pricey, but will outlast me.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Mortise and loose tenon done using plunge router. Hundreds of videos on you tube for mortising using a plunge router. 5/4 stock for screen door frame. Rabbet on outside of door, screen stapled in and covered with screen molding.

[Jeff Bartley]

i made my screen door from milled down 2x6 redwood deck material 1" thick. mortise and tennon pinned with redwood dowels. self closing hinges that slam it shut just like old time sceeen doors. has held up and looks good after ten years. i did splurge on bronze screen material. that took a while to get and was pricey, but will outlast me.

I love that bronze screen!

[Mel Fulks]

In the situation you described ; I would staple up nylon netting.

[Brian Holcombe]

Brian, do you find the Domino to be useful in any of your work?

I don’t, but if you like locating table tops for glue up, it’s useful there. Floating tenon joinery is fine I just don’t prefer it and don’t find it most effective.

[Richard Coers]

Pocket screws are not structural joinery.

[johnny means]

The goal to efficiency is more than just cutting the joints. It is cutting them so that they locate the parts perfectly each time. This minimizes finishing work. So while a domino and a freestanding mortiser are similarly fast, I know that the joints I cut with freestanding machinery are well positioned and perfectly square. I can assemble the frames without measuring and they are spot on. I usually measure one per batch.

For dominos their is slack in the joint and the parts don’t self align as well as precision cut joinery.

I cut a typical window sized mortise with the hollow chisel in approx 15 seconds including clamping. Or I cut it with the Maka in less time but I assume his machine is not a Maka.
I assume you've never used a Domino. It's unforgiving in it's precision. As far as slack, I once dry fitted a workbench with Dominoes, got busy with contracts, and ended up working on that dry fitted bench for years before banging it apart to move it to it's new owner's shop.

[Brian Holcombe]

Again, it seems we can’t compare apples to apples in this conversation, we’re talking about windows and I make shoji. I have taken apart domino joints, there is a tolerance to the fit that I can eliminate with traditional joinery using traditional machines and in doing so I remove the majority of the work of touching up the faces of the parts, or sides after that.

It would seem these machines are pitched in forums as the ideal solution to all joinery problems, yet I don’t see them as such.

Traditional joinery can be made more ideal to suit various purposes, it can be made to self locate and self square with extreme precision and it can be made very quickly given some ingenuity. Those things combine to form ‘efficient’ in my book.

[Mike Henderson]

While I don't want to push you to spend money, the Domino has been perhaps the best portable machine I've ever purchased. I use it on almost all of my projects. For small things, the 4mm Dominoes work very well. It makes a strong accurate joint and it does it quickly.

I think if you get one you'll find it useful on many of your projects. It's a joy to use.

Mike

[Aaron Rosenthal]

Wow! Love the discussion.
For the door, I agree, no such thing as pocket screws, I learned THAT lesson years ago. No, it's the multiple window screens I'm thinking of.
It looks like M&T are going to be the way. Tune up the mortiser, boys, here we go!

[Prashun Patel]

I have noticed with Domino joints that while they are strong, I can break them apart with less effort than traditional mortise and tenon. I am not talking about pulling them out. I mean torquing. For this reason I do not use them on chairs or anything that gets those kinds of forces.

On a door or window I would have confidence in it especially if I had to make a bunch. Domino is nice on large pieces like a door where I might find it easier to take the tool to the wood.

[Thomas Wilson]

Back in the 60’s, without the option of a domino tool or a mortising machine, my father used half lap joints on Doug fir to make screens on the same type of single pane windows as you describe. He too did it to fulfill a wish of my mother. The screens held up well and he had some regret to throw them away some 10 or 15 years later when all the windows were replaced with double pane windows. A few of the frames were covered with plastic and used to cover cold frames to start plants. The half lap joints held up just fine. Modern Titebond III glue would be even better. I would be hard pressed to pick a better joint.

[John TenEyck]

Back in the 60’s, without the option of a domino tool or a mortising machine, my father used half lap joints on Doug fir to make screens on the same type of single pane windows as you describe. He too did it to fulfill a wish of my mother. The screens held up well and he had some regret to throw them away some 10 or 15 years later when all the windows were replaced with double pane windows. A few of the frames were covered with plastic and used to cover cold frames to start plants. The half lap joints held up just fine. Modern Titebond III glue would be even better. I would be hard pressed to pick a better joint.

IIRC, a FWW article on joint strength showed half laps to have higher breaking strength than traditional M&T. Why? Because the faces have larger cross section than on a M&T joint. Of course, when a half lap joint fails the two pieces come apart while with a M&T it often still stays together although structurally it's history. The point is there are several ways to make joints that are plenty strong enough for the intended application. Even the most basic outfitted shop can make serviceable joints for these doors. Seriously, a handsaw, drill and chisel are all that is needed to make several of the joints discussed.

John

[Jon Endres]

For window screens I would definitely prefer to use half-laps or bridle joints. Very strong if done right. I've built some big cabinet doors with nothing but stub tenons and good glue and they hold up to a lot of use, so M&T should be great on the doors.

[Brian Holcombe]

I use bridle joints or mortise and tenon, for this work but no way I’d use half laps. They may have a high breaking strength but this is an outdoor use. You want that joint as sealed as possible so for this, personally I would use mortise and tenon.

[Alex Zeller]

They're screens for a house. Not a hatch for a sub. Any one of these methods would work just fine for the windows. I would use Titebond III because they will see rain and pick the joint that I preferred. I would do a rabbit for the screen with a wood strap that fit into it (after stapling the screen). Even the door isn't going to see much force unless a kid decides to lift himself off the ground while hanging on it. There's just not going to be much weight. I would put the spring for the door near the center, not at the top, because that's where it'll be pushed / pulled. I certainly wouldn't by a Domino for this one job. Now if I just wanted one or felt like I would use it in the future then, being a tool whore, I would buy one.

[Warren Lake]

easy answer for me id just do what the old guys did. I watched them for many years and saw them do what they were taught. It worked for 1000 years before. You could do the M and T and then peg it, better offset the peg so its always under pre load. Even skip the glue and it would likely out live you though glue best to keep water and moisture out and stronger.

[Thomas Wilson]

IIRC, a FWW article on joint strength showed half laps to have higher breaking strength than traditional M&T. Why? Because the faces have larger cross section than on a M&T joint. Of course, when a half lap joint fails the two pieces come apart while with a M&T it often still stays together although structurally it's history. The point is there are several ways to make joints that are plenty strong enough for the intended application. Even the most basic outfitted shop can make serviceable joints for these doors. Seriously, a handsaw, drill and chisel are all that is needed to make several of the joints discussed.

John
I read the FWW article. Its conclusion agreed with this experience. However, my reading of trends in the test results that suggests greater crossgrain gluing surface increased the breaking strength. That seems counter intuitive. A possible explanation was that the test did not consider the effect of wood movement over time weakening the glue bond. But I agree that the tools available and the OP’s preference would determine the choice. I would not choose pocket screws or biscuits but those might be fine.

[Joe Cowan]

I recently completed a storm door with removable glass/and or screen panels. I used my domino for the joinery and all is well after one year.

[John TenEyck]

I recently completed a storm door with removable glass/and or screen panels. I used my domino for the joinery and all is well after one year.

Oh NO, how could you? It'll fail in another week for sure!

I bet it'll outlive us both.

John

[Jeff Bartley]

easy answer for me id just do what the old guys did. I watched them for many years and saw them do what they were taught. It worked for 1000 years before. You could do the M and T and then peg it, better offset the peg so its always under pre load. Even skip the glue and it would likely out live you though glue best to keep water and moisture out and stronger.

In most of the historic work that I do we never glue windows or doors though I do use hide glue on wedges in doors. On a recent screen door build I cut through mortise and tenons which were draw-bore pegged then wedged with a little hide glue on the mortise side of the wedge.

Windows and window screens are never glued. If they were they would not be repairable in the future. Many of the windows we repair are over 150 years old! My favorite wood for exterior window screens is locust; with locust pegs and paint they will last forever and a day!

[Warren Lake]

thanks John, some good history there in the work you do. Reminds me of the old guy on the six inch thick church doors learned in his apprenticeship.

Ironically there is a huge locust behind my parents home and just today had said in an email to a friend new owners will love it or not want it there. Tons of little leaf guys end up in the eves. Appraisers will take into account certain trees in how they ad or dont add value to a home. It drops branches from time to time and they are heavy and hard.

Ive never seen that wood for sale in a lumber company. Will have to decide on wood for some doors and windows there at some point.

[Alex Zeller]

I wonder if the half lap is so strong simply because it's an easy joint to glue. With a tenon too loose and the glue isn't going to hold. Too tight and you risk scraping it off while putting the joint together.

[Brian Holcombe]

Warren and Jeff, the draw-bored mortise and tenon is definitely the ideal joint for this in my opinion.

Alex, I suspect it’s mainly because the parts are thicker. Joint testing to failure only shows what is strongest in that respect, it doesn’t show what lasts best over time in normal use. As example Shoji use a double tenon, traditionally. Small double tenons are not terribly strong joints in ultimate breaking strength but they hold very well over time with traditional glues.

[Warren Lake]

the mortise and the tennon both get glue.

Chisel mortisers or chains leave some rough there as well which is not negative. Router bits and Makas smoother. Some depending on how they cut their tennons will have some rough there as well. I was shown a tennon off a 500 K machine from a big custom door maker and it looked like a beaver chewed it.

I saw a test between mortise and tennon and dowels. It wasnt realistic dimensions used compared to what a door would be. Egyptians used this stuff. I dont need to reinvent the wheel. The old guys had good teachers and Id rather have machines to do the work the way I was taught than a gizmo cause im looking for time saving lesser way. Thats all that stuff is.

For the pro shops the gizmos did nothing. Face frames were mortise and tennon and became Pocket holes. So what, the bar was just lowered and all of them went at the same new low level, how did time saving help anyone. Gizmo inventors made big and lowered the trade. The old guys had simple tools and did the best work with it, just kept doing what they were taught.

Lap joints look like kindergarten.

[Mel Fulks]

I can see the value of not gluing old doors that just need some re-hab. For new doors ,I like glue, especially since most of the time I was
not hanging the doors. Helpers and day-workers are often loading and unloading doors, and they usually pretty much drop them when
setting them down. Then someone wants the guy who skillfully made the door to repair it for free. Even if it’s just wracked ,it has to be
fixed. Custom doors are pricey. I’m retired ,but even years ago we were making fir or white pine front doors that were often over a $1000.
Glued all of them.

[John TenEyck]

Modern glues make joinery stronger and more durable over what most people would consider a practical lifespan. Doors, windows, etc. for historical buildings might fall in a different category if the objective is to repair/replace exactly as the original was crafted, but for the OP's project why one would ignore the advantages of glue escapes me. I'll bet the craftsmen making windows and doors a few hundred years ago would have taken advantage of glue for exterior work had they been available.

When you look at old methods of construction you have to wonder why they did things a certain way. For example, were doors made with through tenons because it was easier to fabricate than a housed tenon? A through tenon exposes the end to weather and that's not good. A through tenon weakens the stile and diminishes the look of the edge of the door. It also has to be perfectly fabricated to eliminate racking. One has to wonder if draw boring was developed as a way to eliminate racking in joints that had a little slop. A glued, stopped tenon eliminates all those issues.

John

[Brian Holcombe]

Draw-bores are used for many reasons, the two that stand out to me are simple. Hide glue isn’t durable against the elements and draw-bored frames are more easily repairable.

Modern glues are not easily repairable, doesn’t matter at all in our throw-away culture unless you want to keep the door open for repair. I do, in many cases do I will use draw-bores or hide glue in those cases. If it’s a less concerning I will use plain yellow glue. If the joinery is too small for draw-boring and repair is too time consuming to be efficient then I will use a modern water resistant glue.

Unless you have actually made draw-bores you may never realize how sturdy they are. I draw bore bed-frames and table bases routinely. I’ve revisited them many times and they are rock solid. A glue joint would be also, but I can’t take down a glue joint with a drift pin and a hammer in about 30 seconds.

Furthermore I see no reason to throw away foundational technologies and processes for the sake of convenience. There is Ming furniture, now 400 years old or more being held together with draw-bore pegs, there are Japanese temples older still that are held together with draw-bore pegs, many of which have survived earth quakes. Heck, there is a set of doors at the Armory in Philly that are held together with draw bore pegs, I believe those doors are 15’ tall.

Ive never built 15’ tall doors, so I’ll give a nod to those who do, and give respect to their process as being ideal for their circumstances rather than assume they had their arms tired behind their backs for lack of modern glues.

[Jim Dwight]

Domino made joints are just mortise and tenon joints. It has two mortises and an inserted tenon. That is different but had advantages. One of the toughest parts of making tenons for me is the shoulders. I bought and use a shoulder plane which helps a lot but it is still a bit of work to get them to fit tight. With an inserted tenon (domino or plunge router made) there is no shoulder to cut. Strength comparisons are won by the joint with the most long grain glued area. That doesn't make a half lap the best joint for every application, however. Domino joints often do not fare well because one or more small pre-made tenons are used and compared to a larger integral tenon. Surprise, more glue area wins. When I want more glue area, I just make a longer slot mortise and a tenon to match. It is significantly easier to cut the inserted tenon than a traditional, at least for me. I have made longer mortises several times when that worked best for my project. You just plunge repeated at about 1/2 inch intervals and you have a longer mortise. Not much different than plunging a hollow chisel into work repeatedly to get a longer mortise. Except the domino is faster and the mortise is cleaner.

I would also say that somebody who says domino joints have slop hasn't really made many, if any. The premade tenons fit so tight you have to drive them apart. Most of us thin some tenon stock down for dry fit. But if you ever have a situation with slop, you could just make your own tighter fitting tenon stock. Easily and quickly.

I also like to use the same tools, however, that I have repeatedly gotten good results with. With a good mortiser you are comfortable with AND a good way to make an integral tenon you definitely do not need a domino. But for my little shop I do not have space for a floor standing mortiser and a domino is definitely better than a benchtop unit IMHO.

[Brian Holcombe]

Jim, a nit-pick; the long grain glue surface is one aspect of ultimate strength. I cut double tenons, they have twice the glue surface of single tenons. I’ve assembled and destroyed similar sized joints, the single tenons are always stronger.

As mentioned, however. We usually are not breaking the joinery, if that happens it is usually after the glue failed.

WRT slop, not taking about across the thickness, but rather across the width. This tolerance allows parts to locate slightly out of position. I’ve taken apart a number of these joints, the fit is certainly acceptable, but frankly I can do better with classical machines and dial in the fit, with softwoods I generally like them to compress along the sides and with hardwoods I’m generally aiming for near zero tolerance but without compression.

Finally a domino joint robs the joint of the haunch, the haunch is certainly going to improve part alignment, especially over time and with wood movement.

We’re certainly splitting hairs here, but that’s the nature of a discussion that is fairly interesting.

[Warren Lake]

haunch gives a bit more glue surface, fills the panel slot that runs right through, also helps resist any twisting. Example the "shaker called doors" were made with a mortise and tennon and the panel slot that ran to the end of the styles was filled in by the haunch on the tennon.

[John TenEyck]

It's easy enough to cut a stub tenon on the end of a rail AND use loose tenons.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3es7Le1UPEasrIHcn5Q9gpFQXU7DW3dCE47Srj1mdNQEgzBgk7 xP5dgNsudbBc5h5D5ZJEVY_F8LwbKiwkgilB128rsmgYcsSuXk uI-hkdYX7jghhgeFP5bkB7gcgUIKecqPzp4dlCt6aUGi5UlD3G8RQ =w835-h626-no?authuser=0


Or you can cut a dado in the end of the rail and have it fit over a stub tenon on the edge of the stile. Either way accomplishes the same thing.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dIavfOb4a_dFtQ15GsH-tG9B8vQccv4r8t2ae9L23QuAsXx2Xr-Tqxp8EC14Lz6KN_CBzoU_RtDwb4mX7MAkh12LbRNOFApgT_hn5 S0ilhzddeZewaixkelshp7YWYZol44NKT7czO4FNuUV3h35p0Z g=w835-h626-no?authuser=0


You can even draw bore and pin loose tenons if you think it offers an advantage.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3e0MJWXs8nil-nxXQ3RKnXzS-00CaoI5xI1qDPGcFKq76Q4pr5sAWfgxVD3OFiNI36rtmxZS4LI E6b-PQDK0pzgyoWa3Q483GMlIJ6WAqKprOCrayno1rZfLnRZbT2Wzt lFLhEK94Sd1khEEGzlUT560g=w835-h626-no?authuser=0

There are lots of ways to use modern methods and materials without sacrificing practical longevity.

John

[Brian Holcombe]

If you’re going to go through that, why not just make square edged tenons? Time savings is gone.

Practically speaking draw-bore pins are great where clamps are impractical.

[John TenEyck]

If you’re going to go through that, why not just make square edged tenons? Time savings is gone.

Practically speaking draw-bore pins are great where clamps are impractical.


Because then I'd have to make square ended mortises. A slot mortiser (or Domino) and loose tenons take a lot less time, both cutting and fitting, with less chance for error, than cutting integral haunched tenons and matching square ended mortises. Said another way, I guess I'm just not good enough to work to perfect fit tolerances. Fortunately, there is no need. I cut those loose tenons by the yard. In the time it takes to cut and fit one integral tenon I've cut enough loose tenons for several doors. And because using a slot mortiser, or router, produces mortises of consistent width the loose tenons fit w/o need for individual fitting. The only thing about loose tenons that takes longer is having to glue both ends of the tenon. I'm OK with that.

I'm not saying what I do is better, only that it's faster and easier for me and that I see no downside from a practical longevity standpoint.

John

[Mel Fulks]

I don’t see thru-tenons as unsightly. Still remember as a kid being impressed by them at G. Washington’s boy-hood Ferry Farm home.
The guides always point them out ! Hope I never live anywhere that weather can hurt a thru-tenon ! Tip: If you don’t have time to paint
the whole door ....at least paint that end grain !!

[Mel Fulks]

One thing we haven’t yet mentioned are blind wedged tenons. Seen them in books and heard old timers say they had used them. I’ve always
meant to try it , might make an open sided sample to get a sense of taper size.

[Malcolm McLeod]

One thing we haven’t yet mentioned are blind wedged tenons. Seen them in books and heard old timers say they had used them. I’ve always
meant to try it , might make an open sided sample to get a sense of taper size.

I used this (...thinking we're talking the same thing...?) on a chest-on-stand, and references I found called it a "fox-tail tenon". One thing for sure, once you start assembly, it WILL NOT allow a 2nd attempt!

[Mel Fulks]

Malcolm, were you happy with the result ?

[Malcolm McLeod]

Malcolm, were you happy with the result ?

Very.

I cut a typical tenon on a leg, then a mortice in the bottom of a rail - - for the 'stand' of said chest-on-stand - - with the stand being Japanese-inspired 'gate' style. Result was the ends of the rails were a perfect place to pick up the entire assembly, legs hang from rails, chest hangs on legs, and so I was worried about the leg's tenon being loaded in pure vertical tension.

At the top of the tenon, I cut 2 tapered relief cuts, located ~1/4" in from the edge ('outside' of the tenon has to flex ). The base of the cut got a drilled stress relief hole (~1/8" IIRC). Then made 1/8" thick wedges to fit these cuts.

A little trig gave me the angle of the wedge, so cut a guide block for a chisel and undercut the bottom of each side of the rail's mortice for both tenons/legs.

Start the 4 wedges (barely), apply glue to all surfaces, align, and drive it home. Once! (Complicated by the lower stretcher in each pair of legs that was already glued in place.)

...If this is what you're referencing? Result is bulletproof.:cool:

[Brian Holcombe]

Sounds like a nice project, Malcolm! I’ve used them on a few projects, one is outdoor and they are still tight.

[Mel Fulks]

Thanks,Malcolm. Good to hear from someone who has done it . I gotta move up priority on that one.

[Jared Sankovich]

I like the domino for what it is. Its not perfect, but it works well enough. It's not a replacement for every integral M&T but it works in a variety of situations.

[Paul Schaefer]

I built a screen door for our old house because the front door was so darn big I couldn't just buy a door at the box store - I'd have to go to the original door manufacturer and my memory is that would have cost me around $150. No thanks! Used 1x4 radiata pine from HD for the stiles and 1x6 for the rails. Put it together with 5/16" dowels, and it held up great for the ten years we lived there. It was a screen door that got abused by two little kids, but it wasn't structural timbering. No need to over-engineer it.

New house has standard sized doors. I looked at the cost of lumber compared to the cost of a screen door at the box store. I couldn't buy the lumber for the cost of the door, and when you count the value of my time that could be spent on the mountain of other home projects that would be prohibitively expensive to contract out...well, the cheap box store screen doors won out. The joinery was not impressive, so I threw some angle brackets on as reinforcement. That was two years ago, and they're holding strong.

My view is, for a project like this, I wouldn't go for some theoretical 'best' joint. Use whatever is easiest, is sufficiently strong for the task at hand, and is sufficiently aesthetically pleasing to your eye. If I couldn't just buy a premade door and dress it up (structurally and aesthetically), I'd probably do dowels again or half-laps.

[Joe Calhoon]

No doubt that true mortise and tenon makes for better joinery but I think for frames Domino, loose tenon and even dowels (gasp) are acceptable in most cases. For many years we built doors with loose tenon joinery using a slot mortiser on SCM combo machine. Early on we made a line of reproduction Victorian era doors that were wedged through tenoned. That was a labor intensive operation without the right equipment. Cutting long tenons on a table saw with a dado blade and a drill press mortise attachment. The mass produced doors of the late 1800s and early 1900s were efficiently produced with chain mortisers and push pull tenoners with horizontal heads.
Looking around town at doors I have built over the last 45 years the joints are still tight on all the forms of joinery used including dowels.
Door and windows joinery is not so much strength of joint but how the joint reacts to cycles of humidity and temperature changes. IFT Rosenheim in Germany does extensive testing of window and door joints. Slot and tenon is the norm for windows in Europe and rated high except for the exposed endgrain. Dowels are also rated high with the advantage of less end grain. Lowest ratings are mechanical through bolted connections because the humidity and temperature changes cause these to loosen over time even though these are stronger than a mortise and tenon. Here is a picture of a hand cut slot and tenon from a 1650s European window. This is in a window museum of a European door and window maker.
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Accuracy with a Domino, since it is hand held is dependent on the skill of the user. In my experience the fit of the factory supplied Dominos is very good. One advantage of loose tenon is you can use a harder wood for the tenon. For example using oak tenons on a fir screen door. Loose tenon and Domino from a manufacturing standpoint is more efficient. (AKA making a profit) For me with the wide variety of custom work it would be very impractical to do true mortise and tenon on everything. Here is a example of a recent door that has very narrow cross rails. On this one hidden LVL was used to strengthen the narrow cross rails using a combination of dowels and Domino.
Good dowel construction depends on a accurate boring machine, correct fitting dowels and dowels made out of good exterior wood like Oak or Locust. Dowel construction can be very accurate for positioning of parts.
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The pined non glued window construction of the past was a good thing but would be hard to bring back now. Too many profiles- types and windows have gotten more complex.
I always do true tenons on historic work. Some joinery pictures of recent work. I believe the OP using a little care could make acceptable joinery with the tools he has.

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[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks, Joe, appreciate your insights.

[John TenEyck]

That's an awesome door clamp you have there Joe. Is that all the glue you put on the tenons? Did the mortises get glue, too? Doesn't seem adequate but your track record speaks for itself.

John

[Joe Calhoon]

Thanks, Joe, appreciate your insights.

And yours also Brian! I am only a joiner and you a top level furniture maker where your joinery is a few notches above mine. I can understand the shortcomings of the Domino for you. For me it works for odd stuff.

[Joe Calhoon]

That's an awesome door clamp you have there Joe. Is that all the glue you put on the tenons? Did the mortises get glue, too? Doesn't seem adequate but your track record speaks for itself.

John
Mortise and tenon glued and end grain hand brushed. TB3. For doors and windows snug fit of joinery where joints can be pushed home without glue.
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[John TenEyck]

Thanks Joe. I like that glue applicator; looks efficient. Do you trust TB3 for glued up door panels? I've seen a lot of glued up panels on doors that get sun on them split at the glue line in places like Breckenridge, CO. Mostly white oak, IIRC. I have no clue what glue they used, but TB3 has really poor performance at elevated temperature.

John

[Mel Fulks]

[QUOTE=John TenEyck;3109115]Thanks Joe. I like that glue applicator; looks efficient. Do you trust TB3 for glued up door panels? I've seen a lot of glued up panels on doors that get sun on them split at the glue line in places like Breckenridge, CO. Mostly white oak, IIRC. I have no clue what glue they used, but TB3 has really poor performance at elevated temperature.

I always used “sprung joints” . An early employment demanded it , after that I was the “Johnny Appleseed” of sprung joints ! With a
jointer with a wheel outfeed adjustment it’s easy since you can file marks on edge of wheel and screw a pointer arrow to the jointer.
Some employers were skeptical at first . Then believers ....with little control of their shop to make anyone learn how....so I did most of the
panels ,often 125 or more at one time. I offered $20 for anyone who could find an open end on a panel. Guys were going to job sites on
weekends looking for treasure ! I bet Warren Mickey does them ...and uses a hand plane! THAT I could not do. I do know many don’t
like Titebond 3.

[Brian Holcombe]

Same with Mel, I have a feeling this has more to do with joint prep than the glue. I’m looking at a table that has been in direct sunlight for better than 10 years, spring joint with TB3. I rarely use titebond III anymore but I haven’t had trouble with it either.

[Joe Calhoon]

Thanks Joe. I like that glue applicator; looks efficient. Do you trust TB3 for glued up door panels? I've seen a lot of glued up panels on doors that get sun on them split at the glue line in places like Breckenridge, CO. Mostly white oak, IIRC. I have no clue what glue they used, but TB3 has really poor performance at elevated temperature.

John
never a issue with TB3 John. It does have a inconsistent viscosity from bucket to bucket. I only buy fives and stir them a bit before dumping into the pot. Sometimes it’s lumpy.
Always wanted to use the glue for windows that Kleiberit sells but not readily available here. We have made miles of laminated window and door scantlings with TB3. Another good feature of Tightbond is no dulling of planer knives when running glued up blanks.

Exterior panels always get a spring joint and reinforced with either T&G or spline.

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[Mel Fulks]

Sometimes even wood bought as kiln dried and stored inside , will move a little . When possible I always cut the wood to glue-up size lengths
and let in sit overnight in warmest spot in shop. When the heated finishing room was not being used I would use that in cold weather.

[Mel Fulks]

Just in case someone wants to try spring joint , I don’t think it’s possible to make one on a jointer without first doing a pass on the rough cut
pieces to get a straight “ordinary” edge. That straight edge guides the spring cutting as it goes over the rounded end of out-feed table.
Straight line saw will also serve , even though that is done on the still rough cut material. When making the spring pass some pressure must
be on the out feed side. While we have this thread going I encourage all to try it, and ask for advice as needed.

[Mel Fulks]

YES ! Another one. Just for fun ( not info) I looked at a lot of online opinions on sprung joints. Astounded to find there are high
profile wood gurus with anti sprung joint leanings. They do have strong recommendations. Store your wood for months, or years ,in a nice
warm place. Use a certain kind of glue. Buy more clamps. I think it must be easier to get followers with easy suggestions than old proven facts. Sprung joints did not materialize from smoked joints. They have a long history ,but it’s possible I wouldn’t have been convinced
without “do it or get out” employment “tips”.