Bad Axe Hybrid filing?

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

Hi all, I am about to order my first joinery saws
a pair from Bad Axe Toolworks - the 18" Tenon and the 14" carcass (a dovetail saw will come next as soon as I can afford it)

Mark seems to be pushing his hybrid cut filing pretty hard. This goes counter to most of what I've read - that 2 saws one a dedicated rip and one a dedicated cut can do better work than a hybrid?

Was hoping for some input from the creek, I looked for past references but haven't seen anything specific on the subject.
should I go hybrid on both, or dedicated cross and rip respectively. I definitely believe that Mark knows his saws...

[Phil Gaudio]

I think it depends in part on your level of experience. The hybrid filing may be more user friendly for the sawyer who is just getting started. The first BA saw I ordered came with the hybrid filing, and I immediately sent it back and had it refiled rip. I found that the hybrid filing was not aggressive enough for my liking. If you could demo both saws side by side, I think you would immediately see the difference. If you have limited time to woodwork, and want a saw that is a little easier to handle, perhaps the hybrid is just the ticket. If you are more serious about woodworking and want the best performance from the saw, I'd go with dedicated rip/crosscut filing.

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

I think it depends in part on your level of experience. The hybrid filing may be more user friendly for the sawyer who is just getting started. The first BA saw I ordered came with the hybrid filing, and I immediately sent it back and had it refiled rip. I found that the hybrid filing was not aggressive enough for my liking. If you could demo both saws side by side, I think you would immediately see the difference. If you have limited time to woodwork, and want a saw that is a little easier to handle, perhaps the hybrid is just the ticket. If you are more serious about woodworking and want the best performance from the saw, I'd go with dedicated rip/crosscut filing.

its hard for me to answer this, like I said I've only sawn with big box store generic saws and my leatherman multitool (both are cross cut). I will say one thing - I am more interested in accuracy and control than I am with speed. I am doing this for fun, I won't have a lot of time to do it typically but I'm OK with slowing down a bit. I'm less OK with sloppy work (I know my work will probably be sloppy as an untrained sawyer). as for trying out the tools, I would love to, do you think an American tool show is likely to travel to Israel any time soon? ;)

[Phil Gaudio]

its hard for me to answer this, like I said I've only sawn with big box store generic saws and my leatherman multitool (both are cross cut). I will say one thing - I am more interested in accuracy and control than I am with speed. I am doing this for fun, I won't have a lot of time to do it typically but I'm OK with slowing down a bit. I'm less OK with sloppy work (I know my work will probably be sloppy as an untrained sawyer). as for trying out the tools, I would love to, do you think an American tool show is likely to travel to Israel any time soon? ;)

Let me address your last comment first: I suggest you plan a trip to the USA: perhaps a whirlwind tour of all the boutique tool makers across the country? Not in the cards, then let me suggest this. How about ordering one saw that you think will best suit your needs. Live with that saw for a while, and assess its strengths and weaknesses. You will then be better able to make an informed decision when purchasing your second saw. It is difficult to capture in words how a particular saw cuts: its something you have to experience for yourself. Based on what you have described, maybe the hybrid filing would be good for your first saw. Wait a while, I am sure you will be getting lots of advice on this one, although that advice may not make it any easier to make your decision:)

[Scott Winners]

Since you are getting two saws, I would get one filed rip, one filed crosscut , and practice on a scrap with both. Last time I looked at the Bad Axe site hard somewhere in the FAQ the hybrid grind/ file/ recipe was reccomended for folks only getting one saw for now, and then send it back to have the hybrid grind undone when you buy your second saw.

I did file one of my 26" saws with the BA hybrid parameters. It did not rip as good as my rip saws, and it did not crosscut as good as my crosscuts. However, the hybrid grind on my saw is my go to choice for resawing figured hardwood.

[Stephen Rosenthal]

I have a BA 16” Tenon (rip) and a 14” BA Sash (CC). Great saws. Even if you’re inexperienced, with a bit of practice you won’t be unhappy with those filings, but I suspect you will soon regret getting a hybrid filing.

[Ron Bontz]

Take it with a grain of salt. I would go with a dedicated rip and a dedicated cross cut. When you buy a dovetail saw, at 15/ 16ppi filed rip, it will have small enough teeth to cross cut to some extent as well. Either way, the BA is a good saw.

[Warren Mickley]

I was once in a tenon sawing contest (speed and accuracy) using a provided Bad Axe saw. I won the contest and got to take the saw home. It was a 16 inch tenon saw with hybrid filing. I would not go any larger than this. The saw has much more depth of cut than a traditional saw of similar size so it is a little unwieldy. For really large tenons, we use a rip saw.

The type of filing is not an important issue. Soon enough you will need it sharpened and can have whatever filing you want. I changed mine to a rip saw when I first filed it.

A carcass saw is a large dovetail saw. Mine is 10 inches, but 11 inches is more common. We use it for cutting dovetails on material in the 7/8 thickness range.

A 14 inch saw is a small tenon saw or sash saw.

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

I was once in a tenon sawing contest (speed and accuracy) using a provided Bad Axe saw. I won the contest and got to take the saw home. It was a 16 inch tenon saw with hybrid filing. I would not go any larger than this. The saw has much more depth of cut than a traditional saw of similar size so it is a little unwieldy. For really large tenons, we use a rip saw.

interesting, I wanted the 18” tenon for my first build, a workbench with a 4” top (no through tenons). You think I should get the 16”?

[Warren Mickley]

Yes, I would get the 16 inch over the 18 inch. I think it fits better in a kit. Eventually you will want three or four back saws.

[Joshua Lucas]

I have my Blackburn Tools 14" Sash saw filed hybrid (10° rake and 10° fleam IIRC) and I've been pretty happy with it. It rips a bit slower and crosscuts a bit rougher than dedicated saws would, but it's still quite good at both. I'm not sure I'd want any other back saw filed hybrid though. A tenon saw should be rip and a carcass saw crosscut. A hybrid dovetail saw might have a slight advantage for cutting dovetail shoulders but probably not worth the trouble vs. a rip filing.

Everything I've read recommends a 16" tenon saw over an 18". Supposedly an 18" back saw is too unwieldy for the vast majority of tasks. For what it's worth my back saws are a 10" rip dovetail, 14" hybrid sash, and a 16" rip tenon (well, an unassembled kit for one anyway). And I'd like to add a 12" crosscut carcass saw at some point.

[Stephen Rosenthal]

interesting, I wanted the 18” tenon for my first build, a workbench with a 4” top (no through tenons). You think I should get the 16”?

Yes, I agree with Warren. As I noted above, I have the 16” BA Tenon Saw. It’s big (4” useable blade under the bar), sometimes unwieldy, and all you’ll ever need 98% of the time. I, too, use a handsaw on the rare occasions I need something bigger. In my opinion an 18” backsaw will offer little more than frustration and begin collecting dust soon after its purchase.

I have a lot of respect for Mark at BA - his saws are very good - but he is also a clever salesman. He recommends his hybrid filing, knowing full well that a lot of people will return the saws to be refiled in either a more appropriate rip or crosscut profile thereby getting extra $$ for the resharpening service. He offers a lot of appealing but unnecessary bling to each of his saws, substantially driving up the price without increasing efficiency. Both of my BA saws are the basic, least expensive models and they cut just as well as the tricked out saws costing a few hundred dollars more. And he gives each of his saws a military moniker, which I guess appeals to a certain aspect of the buying public.

Btw, I have a few very old Disston 12 - 14” backsaws as well and find myself reaching for them more than the BAs. They just feel better balanced to me. I guess you can say “often imitated, never duplicated” applies.

[Phil Gaudio]

Yes, I agree with Warren. As I noted above, I have the 16” BA Tenon Saw. It’s big (4” useable blade under the bar), sometimes unwieldy, and all you’ll ever need 98% of the time. I, too, use a handsaw on the rare occasions I need something bigger. In my opinion an 18” backsaw will offer little more than frustration and begin collecting dust soon after its purchase.

I have a lot of respect for Mark at BA - his saws are very good - but he is also a clever salesman. He recommends his hybrid filing, knowing full well that a lot of people will return the saws to be refiled in either a more appropriate rip or crosscut profile thereby getting extra $$ for the resharpening service. He offers a lot of appealing but unnecessary bling to each of his saws, substantially driving up the price without increasing efficiency. Both of my BA saws are the basic, least expensive models and they cut just as well as the tricked out saws costing a few hundred dollars more. And he gives each of his saws a military moniker, which I guess appeals to a certain aspect of the buying public.

Btw, I have a few very old Disston 12 - 14” backsaws as well and find myself reaching for them more than the BAs. They just feel better balanced to me. I guess you can say “often imitated, never duplicated” applies.

I have purchased a number of BA saws over the years, and I have had to return more than one upon receipt due to dissatisfaction with the filing. I was never charged for this service, and the re-filed saws ended up being excellent.

[Stephen Rosenthal]

I have purchased a number of BA saws over the years, and I have had to return more than one upon receipt due to dissatisfaction with the filing. I was never charged for this service, and the re-filed saws ended up being excellent.

Perhaps you expressed your dissatisfaction with emphasis soon after receipt. This directly from Bad Axe website:

Bad Axe Saw Sharpening & touch-up: $15
When you're ready to have me sharpen up your Bad Axe --just ship it back to me, and for a nominal fee of $15, I will put a fresh edge on your teeth, and will gladly retension the back if required.

You also pay for shipping each way, which isn’t cheap. Don’t get me wrong, I like both my BA saws and applaud Mark for producing excellent saws, but I disagree with the hype about his hybrid filing.

[Bob Betker]

I've purchased a number of saws over the years from Mark and all except one have been filed either rip or crosscut. The one filed hybrid happens to be the one I use the least. It's a nice saw but seems to feel the least comfortable when using it. As others have said a little practice and starting either the rip or crosscut gets to be second nature.

[Erich Weidner]

I had the same question. Here is the thread: https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?276994-Bad-Axe-quot-Hybrid-Cut-quot-Filing&highlight=

I ended up not getting anything in hybrid filing. I'm happy with my saws, and I feel like I made a good choice, but can't compare them to the hybrid ones as I've never used them. :)

[chris carter]

interesting, I wanted the 18” tenon for my first build, a workbench with a 4” top (no through tenons). You think I should get the 16”?

Why not just use a regular hand saw? I don't think you need to buy one saw just so you can cut the tenons on a workbench. I don't own a tenon saw period and have never really needed one (although, to be fair, I do have a carcass saw that is filed rip - and I'm not suggesting that I will never acquire a tenon saw, just that it's never presented itself as a high priority). I cut all the tenons of my split top roubo with a 26" rip hand saw. It worked fine and cut fast. Top is 4" thick; legs are 3.75" x 5"; no through tenons. I say: use that money for something else.

In fact, I cut a lot of tenons only with a Xcut carcass saw; no vertical cuts. Just mark the line for the cheeks and just split it off with a chisel. It's often a lot faster. Just take half first to see what the grain is doing. If it's not cooperating cut half again and again until the final slice. if It's cooperating, then I make my second whack just off then line, and then the final slice. So the only cut is the baseline of the cheek, which is a shallow crosscut.

I'm just saying there are a lot of alternatives than spending that kind of money. There might be other tools that would be of considerably higher priority.

One person's opinion..... others will disagree....

[Derek Cohen]

I have a 16" tenon saw by Wenzloff & Sons. Mike made beautiful saws, and the choice of this one, purchased 11 years ago, was influenced by Chris Schwarz, who strongly advocated this size. After using it a couple of years, it stayed on the shelf. It is probably a good size for bench leg tenons. Not furniture.

My go to for tenons is a 14" Gramercy rip sash saw. I like the size, balance and the low weight. The plate is thinner than most, and it cuts fast enough.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

I have a 16" tenon saw by Wenzloff & Sons. Mike made beautiful saws, and the choice of this one, purchased 11 years ago, was influenced by Chris Schwarz, who strongly advocated this size. After using it a couple of years, it stayed on the shelf. It is probably a good size for bench leg tenons. Not furniture.

My go to for tenons is a 14" Gramercy rip sash saw. I like the size, balance and the low weight. The plate is thinner than most, and it cuts fast enough.

Regards from Perth

Derek


Derek: Why did you stop using it?

[Derek Cohen]

Asaaf, the 11 tpi Wenzloff 16” tenon saw cut beautifully, and I had enough time on it that I could make it work. However, it felt huge and cumbersome. It was not pleasurable to use ... something like using a sledge hammer to drive a nail. While only 2” longer than the 14” Gramercy, the Wenzloff feels twice the size. In part this is due to the deeper and thicker plate, and heavier brass back. The Gramercy cuts slower (13 tpi and a little more rake) but it feels light and nimble in the hand.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Steve Hubbard]

Assaf, I am far less experienced than the others who have responded, so take that into consideration. Took a sharpening class from Mark and was impressed with his knowledge. I bought a 14 inch BA carcase and a BA dovetail saw both hybrid. I own an Adria backsaw filed rip that I cherish, and have used Wenzloff saws in a class taught by Swarz. I am very pleased with the two hybrid BA saws.

[Jeff Ranck]

The first saw I purchased was a bad axe 16" tenon saw with hybrid filing. I have no problems with the filing. Like was posted above, it rips less well than a rip filing and crosscuts less well than a crosscut filing, but it gets the job done. However, mine mostly sits on the shelf and I should probably sell it. It is too big for just about anything that I do. The handle is a little loose for me (compared to my dovetail and carcass saws that get used all the time). It just doesn't fit anything that I seem to do and when I use it, I find it too unwieldy to effectively use. It sure is a beautiful saw, though.