New Grizzly 1023RL Flatness

[Ken Howell]

Hi Everyone,

I know this has been discussed ad nauseum but I got a new 1023RL. I put the left extension on and I noticed the middle of the extension was high. I've done the tape shim thing so many times my arms are worn out from holding the extension to bolt and unbolt it off. I have a a straightedge. Powertec, that I used on the extension and it is flat to within .0015. The main table is not. It is concave about .0045 on the left side from front to back.

Grizzly tech line isn't open on Saturday so I can't call them.

Is this something I need to worry about? I don't want to put the rest of the table together if I need to send it back for another one.

Thank you,

Ken

[Matt Day]

You should be fine. Use the search, Luke.

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?246499-How-flat-should-my-new-grizzly-tabl-saw-table-be

[Ken Howell]

I did and I saw that one. I get it with the extensions bolted on but I'm talking about just the table without the extensions.

[Jason Evans]

Messing with that wing sounds frustrating.

I just got a sawstop and it is out at least that much, more like .007or .008”. Sawstop says anything under .01” is within specs. I was kind of hoping for better for such a premium, but I don’t think it will matter too much.

My old saw, a beautiful delta 34-444 which I kind of miss, and was better in some ways and would’ve kept if not for the safety feature of the sawstop, was out quite a bit more. Enough to rock a straight edge a little. It was crowned around the blade, but relatively flat to the right of the blade where most of the cutting happened. I was able to get perfectly 90° edges consistently.

[Ken Howell]

Man is it ever!

.01? Wow? I just hope I'm not chasing down a rabbit hole.

[Jason Evans]

I would guess that grizzly will tell you it’s within specs. I could be wrong but I doubt they will want to trade out a saw for that little error.

I wish my new $3000 saw was flatter but what can I do.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Ken,

IIRC, 0.010 is the accepted industry standard. This is a frequent question. That being said one needs to remember that wood is a dynamic material. It will expand and contract due to released tension, moisture content varying, etc. Another thing to consider 1/64" is 0.015", 1/128" is 0.0078125" and 1/256" is 0.00390625". So you error is somewhere between 1/128" and 1/256". That's close enough in my shop.

[Brian Holcombe]

.010” is horrendously out of flat but most of our industry accepts it. The old ‘wood moves’ argument is usually floated by, that argument doesn’t pass muster. Primarily one needs a flat table so that subsequent setup is accurate it has absolutely nothing to do with wood movement.

The tabletop on my Ulmia is flat to .002”. SCM jointer is flat to .001”, so they can do it if they try.

[Andrew Seemann]

.010” is horrendously out of flat but most of our industry accepts it. The old ‘wood moves’ argument is usually floated by, that argument doesn’t pass muster. Primarily one needs a flat table so that subsequent setup is accurate it has absolutely nothing to do with wood movement.

The tabletop on my Ulmia is flat to .002”. SCM jointer is flat to .001”, so they can do it if they try.


They could easily make them within 0.0001" of flat, if you are willing to pay for it:). And the saw probably would weigh a few tons as well.

0.01" seems to be about where the manufacturers and buyers seemed to agree was flat enough to work at a price most people would accept, with better tolerances available to those willing to pay for it, as Brian notes above.

My old Unisaw had a dip in the center of the table closer to 1/16" (part wear, but I suspect that it was also questionable quality control). I'd like to say that was the reason when my joints didn't fit, but it rarely was.

[Brian Holcombe]

No one agreed to it, it’s that for some parts they are the only game in town. As example, I have a cast iron router table that is crowned .014”. It’s genuinely a pita for certain tasks and makes squaring the fence a hassle.

My recourse was to return it at the time at my expense because, of course this was ‘within tolerance’, a tolerance that is not advertised and is a standard for whom?

I can have it flattened at a cost of $700 and a risk of making the top too thin due to how thinly cast they are.

The other recourse is to sell it and make my own from a cast iron slab or surface plate, which is ultimately what I’ll do.

[Ken Howell]

Thank you everyone for your response! I really appreciate it! That's why I love this group!

I guess I'll go ahead and put the rest of my saw together since the consensus is that it is within specs and Grizzly will stand by that.

Thank you!

Ken

[glenn bradley]

I would not be concerned about .0045" . . . I try for .001" on machines and settle for as close as I can get when things start to get unreasonable ;-) Yes we're talking about the thickness of a piece of paper at one spot, actually the difference between two or three spots since we probably have no specific and repeatable reference point.

Let's not lose track of the price point of the saw. The Grizzly machines I have were bought for the value they represent. I had to fiddle a bit with some, even get replacement parts for others prior to them being ready to go to work. I have only had one problem (a cent-switch on a cyclone motor) in the last 18 years . . . not bad for a discount brand. My machines that cost roughly double their Grizzly equivalent are nicer right off the pallet as one would expect.

Probably too late by the time you read this but, I set my blade to the miter slot before I add the wings and fence; so much easier. There may be some shift when the wings and fence rails are added but, the correction, if required, is almost a non-issue. That being said, you can certainly make a cut with the miter gauge prior to continuing assembly and check the cut for accuracy. If it is within your tolerance, you're good!

[Brian Holcombe]

.002” - .004” is a reasonable tolerance, in my opinion, for a moderately priced saw. Beyond that, the manufacturer is short cutting something basic, using worn out equipment or simply performing a task incorrectly. Absolutely no reason why a precision ground cast iron surface should be crowned .010” +.

[David Kumm]

Did you verify if the extension is convex or is the fixed table concave? Tolerances away from the cutter are less problematic than those near the cut. .01 is horrible on a jointer outfeed or anywhere near a shaper spindle. not good near a saw blade due to the affect on a bevel. Cast iron used to be seasoned, planed or ground and then attached to a heavy base. The motor and internals were attached to the base to leave the cast iron from added stress. Now more green cast iron is used and attached to thin sheet steel bases and often also called to support the guts of the machine. At the same time the thickness and webbing is engineered to do the job with little if any over engineering. The problem is not the manufacturer, it is the purchaser who is willing to accept the compromise for price. I'm not in the wood moves camp either. The machine should be the constant here and not need to be compensated for to reduce to problem. Dave

[Ken Howell]

Hi David,

I did verify it is the fixed table that is concave by .0045 on the left side. The right side is good. With it being concave on the left side the extension is sticking above the concave part where it is attached.

[Ronald Blue]

I used to do tool and die/machinist work at an earlier job. Obviously there are tolerances for everything. Even seasoned cast iron takes some care to end up with a flat surface. By flat I'm talking as close to perfect as we could get it. under .001 and as I recall around .0005. It usually took a couple attempts to get here. This wasn't production but tooling related so we weren't proficient at it. We used a Blanchard grinder. What I do recall is it's extremely easy even under a literal flood of coolant to have the wheel lose just enough of the sharp exposed grain to have the piece start to heat up. This caused the cast iron to raise towards the wheel compounding the issue. This can happen amazingly fast. You are constantly watching what's happening in case you have to suddenly crank the wheel to raise the head. So we usually stopped several times to dress the grinding wheel. One last time just before the finish grind. Just kissing the surface on the last grind. What I'm saying has already been said. How much more are you willing to pay for that small gain in flatness.

[Alex Zeller]

It's easy to loose perspective when you want as close to perfect as you can get. Set it up the best you can and cut some boards. If it actually is an issue then worry about it.

[David Kumm]

Sorry I didn't remember the concave part. Is there a place between the base and the table where you can place a shim and then tighten down the bolts slowly. Take a little of the bow out, wait a couple day and tighten some more. Cast iron will flex if you go slow. Dave.

[Charles Coolidge]

Hi David,

I did verify it is the fixed table that is concave by .0045 on the left side. The right side is good. With it being concave on the left side the extension is sticking above the concave part where it is attached.

How far does the concave extend from the left edge towards the blade? I might look under the table to see if a shim could be inserted then pull the concave down flat with the corner bolts that attach the table to the base.

[Ken Howell]

Hi - Sorry it's been a couple of day.

David and Charles - That's a pretty good idea. The concave is about .0045. I think I'll try that if my cuts come out too bad.

Thank you.

[Bill Space]

I must admit that my G1023RLWX went together so easily and nice and looked so pretty, that I never checked the tables for flatness. I did check the blade/table miter slot relationship, and it was right on.

And I never had reason to question the cutting results.

From what you have posted as measurements, I am pretty certain you will be fine. I do not plan to check mine, although I do have a high quality 4' Starret straight edge...ignorance is bliss, right? :)

[Bob Riefer]

I must admit that my G1023RLWX went together so easily and nice and looked so pretty, that I never checked the tables for flatness. I did check the blade/table miter slot relationship, and it was right on.

And I never had reason to question the cutting results.

From what you have posted as measurements, I am pretty certain you will be fine. I do not plan to check mine, although I do have a high quality 4' Starret straight edge...ignorance is bliss, right? :)


It's like you stole the words out of my brain. This is exactly what I was thinking, but shoot.. now I kind of want to check.

[Cary Falk]

I put a straight edge across mine when I got it. It looked pretty good but I didn't measure anything. I think tried to pass a piece of paper between the straight edge and the table. I wouldn't sweat 4.5 thousands