GFI breaker vs receptacle?

[Perry Holbrook]

In the process of making a few fixes before we have the house inspected for sale. The kitchen has 5 duplex receptacles that are not GFI. I suspect they are fed from at least 2 circuits. It would be easier just to replace the breakers with GFI on any circuits that feed the kitchen rather than replace the receptacles and figure which direction the wires feed.

Question is, are both methods acceptable?

Thanks,
Perry

[Thomas McCurnin]

Yes, but ...........

I had a GFI Breaker, and if one tool overloads, then the whole circuit, with every outlet on that circuit, stops working.

With a GFI Outlet, if a single tool overloads, then it affects only that outlet, and the rest of the outlets are unaffected.

I prefer a GFI Outlet.

[Stan Calow]

[QUOTE=Thomas McCurnin;3106560]Yes, but ...........


With a GFI Outlet, if a single tool overloads, then it affects only that outlet, and the rest of the outlets are unaffected./QUOTE]


Are you sure about that Tom? Mine are wired so that every outlet downstream is protected. The GFCIs are the first outlet on the circuit

[Lee Schierer]

Yes, but ...........

I had a GFI Breaker, and if one tool overloads, then the whole circuit, with every outlet on that circuit, stops working.

With a GFI Outlet, if a single tool overloads, then it affects only that outlet, and the rest of the outlets are unaffected.

I prefer a GFI Outlet.

A GFI outlet that trips will also cut the power to all outlets downstream from it unless the wires are doubled onto the input screws to the gfi, which is not proper wiring of the device. Only the outlets upstream from the device will remain powered.

[Frank Pratt]

A GFI receptacle tripping has nothing to do with load. It senses leakage current, not circuit current. So if the tool overloads, the whole circuit will still go down. I generally prefer GFI receptacles because it's more convenient to reset it. And the GFI receptacle is about half the price of a GFI breaker.

GFI receptacles have a pair of line terminals & a pair of load terminals. The line is what the feed is connected to. If downstream devices are connected to the load, then they are GF protected. If the wires are pigtailed & connected to the line only, then only that device has GF protection.

[Paul F Franklin]

In the process of making a few fixes before we have the house inspected for sale. The kitchen has 5 duplex receptacles that are not GFI. I suspect they are fed from at least 2 circuits. It would be easier just to replace the breakers with GFI on any circuits that feed the kitchen rather than replace the receptacles and figure which direction the wires feed.

Question is, are both methods acceptable?

Thanks,
Perry

Yes, both provide GFI protection for the receptacles. There's a rub of course. If you're trying to head off a red flag on the inspection, installing GFCI's may not do it. GFCI protection for kitchen receptacles has been required by the NEC since about 1971. Beginning with the 2014 NEC, combination AFCI/GFCI protection is required in for kitchen receptacles.

Generally, you are usually required to meet the code requirements in effect at the time the house was built and/or remodeled. So if your kitchen was remodeled after 2014 and your local jurisdiction adopted the 2014 code before the remodel, then you would need combination AFCI/GFCI protection. This also can be provided with suitable receptacles or with suitable circuit breakers.

The rules about grandfathering and when remodeling requires bringing all affected portions of systems up to current code vary widely from area to area, and many areas don't adopt a given code revision until years after it is issued. It may very well be that adding GFCI's will be "good enough" in your area to avoid a red flag during the inspection; just be aware there is a chance it won't be good enough.

Sometimes it's easier just to have the inspection and deal with the results than it is to try to guess what the inspector will flag.

[Jim Becker]

Sometimes it's easier just to have the inspection and deal with the results than it is to try to guess what the inspector will flag.
^^ This.

I will clarify that while both a protected breaker and a protected outlet that feeds other outlets will do the job, it would be an important thing to know if there are any other things being fed power on the two circuits generally provideing for normal kitchen utility purposes. The breaker may be feeding other things, in other words, than just the utility outlets at the counters, etc. Personally, I'd probably opt for the breaker if I were retrofitting this myself because sometimes it's difficult to know which outlet is "first in line" and that's where a outlet based protection device has to go since it feeds other receptacles beyond it. "Who's on first" is the challenge sometimes and it can be a challenge to trace.

[Bruce Wrenn]

What did the code require when the house was built? That's all the inspector can ask for.

[Perry Holbrook]

Thanks for the discussion. House built in '32, kitchen built in the 60s, rewired and remodeled in '95. Figuring out "Who's on first" is actually my main concern, it's going to be difficult. Plus, and this seems a little silly, the recpt have custom hand made covers that will not work with the GFI recpt. I think the breaker will be the best solution as long as it's legal.

I appreciate the thought of doing nothing and seeing what the inspector finds, but this is so obvious, might as well go ahead and fix it.

[Bruce King]

First figure out what you have going on.
I would turn off both kitchen breakers. (If you only have one that’s the first problem).
Then use a receptacle tester to make sure all kitchen counter receptacles are off.
Check the built in microwave. If it has no power you just found a common remodeling problem. A built in microwave can’t be on either of the two kitchen counter circuits. It’s ok if a gas range uses one of those circuits for its electronics (opinions may differ on the gas range but it would take a stickler to write it up).
The fridge is often allowed on one of these circuits and usually wired at the beginning of the circuit so that it won’t trip the fridge off if something or a problem trips a GFI. This is why it’s best to have the GFI at the next receptacle after the fridge. Some places require the fridge to be on a GFI if it’s within 6 ft of the sink. An inspector is not going to drag the fridge out to see. I don’t like to have a fridge on either kitchen circuit because many people have multiple high current items on the counter that they use often.

[John Goodin]

You are smart to be preemptive with GFCIs. As a home inspector the lack of GFCI gets written up as a safety hazard and it is common for home buyers to ask for the update. Sometimes the “safety hazard” is enough incentive for the buyers to request that an electrician update everything. With recent updates concerning AFCI breakers that can be expensive.

An easy way to find the upstream outlet in the kitchen.
Turn off one circuit to the kitchen outlets and identify those without power.
Typically, the upstream outlet will be at an end and most likely the one closest to the panel.
Pull the outlet and detach the conductors that travel downstream.
Turn the breaker on and see which half the circuit works. If it is just the single outlet add the GFCI there.
If not, it most likely is the outlet at the other end of the run.

If you have any questions about other issues concerning selling let me know. I’d be happy to help.

[Bill Dufour]

Square D QO breakers GFCI and AFCI are physically much longer and take up gutter space in the panel. Too many such breakers and you may run into space issues inside the panel. Unlikely but possible.
Bill D

PS: I hope this is not a Zinsco panel

[Doug Dawson]

^^ This.

I will clarify that while both a protected breaker and a protected outlet that feeds other outlets will do the job, it would be an important thing to know if there are any other things being fed power on the two circuits generally provideing for normal kitchen utility purposes. The breaker may be feeding other things, in other words, than just the utility outlets at the counters, etc. Personally, I'd probably opt for the breaker if I were retrofitting this myself because sometimes it's difficult to know which outlet is "first in line" and that's where a outlet based protection device has to go since it feeds other receptacles beyond it. "Who's on first" is the challenge sometimes and it can be a challenge to trace.
If you know which receptacles are on the circuit, it will almost always be the case that you can follow the circuit from the home run down to the last receptacle on the line by using a load tester and ordering them from lowest percentage voltage loss to highest. For example, the first receptacle might be 1.9% loss @15amps, and the last (end of the run) might be 5.8%. You can verify this by disconnecting the suspected home run receptacle, capping the wires, turning the power back on and checking that the other receptacles still have no power.

It of course goes without saying that making a mistake even with 120v can send you to Davy Spark’s locker, so proceed with care if at all.

[Thomas McCurnin]

Upstream-Downstream. Too complicated. If every outlet has a GFI then if the tool trips the GFI, the rest of the house and all the outlets on that circuit are cool. If it trips, walk 10 feet to the outlet, check for the light and re-set. Easy-Peasy. About 60 seconds if you're slow.

If one has a GFI breaker, and it trips (rain and snow getting into outdoor Christmas Lights happened to me), then it becomes a fool's errand trying to figure out among the half dozen or so exterior outside outlets, which of the rascals is tripping the breaker. Turns into a 30 minute adventure.

I can't imagine ever wanting a GFI breaker, and indeed we took ours out and installed individual GDI outlets. Way easier.

[Doug Dawson]

Upstream-Downstream. Too complicated. If every outlet has a GFI then if the tool trips the GFI, the rest of the house and all the outlets on that circuit are cool.
If a tool trips a GFI (not a breaker) then I would be be very weirded out by that tool, and I would almost certainly throw it away. That current is not going where it’s supposed to, and I would not want to be anywhere near it. Don’t give it to Goodwill, because they don’t deserve to die either. Their employees are not paid very much.

OTOH you could have a bad GFI, but you’re supposed to test them every month. Newer GFI’s auto-test. They do fail.

[John Lanciani]

Upstream-Downstream. Too complicated. If every outlet has a GFI then if the tool trips the GFI, the rest of the house and all the outlets on that circuit are cool. If it trips, walk 10 feet to the outlet, check for the light and re-set. Easy-Peasy. About 60 seconds if you're slow.

If one has a GFI breaker, and it trips (rain and snow getting into outdoor Christmas Lights happened to me), then it becomes a fool's errand trying to figure out among the half dozen or so exterior outside outlets, which of the rascals is tripping the breaker. Turns into a 30 minute adventure.

I can't imagine ever wanting a GFI breaker, and indeed we took ours out and installed individual GDI outlets. Way easier.

If upstream-downstream is too complicated to figure out you probably shouldn't be doing your own wiring. Installing GFIs in every single outlet is a waste of time and money, especially in a kitchen.

[Jim Becker]

If you know which receptacles are on the circuit, it will almost always be the case that you can follow the circuit from the home run down to the last receptacle on the line by using a load tester and ordering them from lowest percentage voltage loss to highest. For example, the first receptacle might be 1.9% loss @15amps, and the last (end of the run) might be 5.8%. You can verify this by disconnecting the suspected home run receptacle, capping the wires, turning the power back on and checking that the other receptacles still have no power.

Some of us with "older" homes have found things to not be very logical at all...I will not even go into what I found here when I was renovating our kitchen back in 2003. I didn't know about GFCI breakers then and it took nearly a day and a half to figure out what outlets were on what circuit and that was with a major wall actually open, but with a crawl space that could only be crawled by a toddler, if that. :)

[Thomas McCurnin]

Code in my stare requires any outlet protected by a remote GFI protector, whether by an another GFI outlet or a GFI Breaker to have a sticker indicating such. And when I used the term confusing I meant confusing to locate the source of the tripping. In my limited experience it was an extension cord, but that took 30 minutes to discern, when, if each outlet was GFI protected from a non remote GFI device would have taken 30 seconds.

[Ken Combs]

Just a comment on home inspections and the 'normal' process. Most, if not all buyers, will request an independent inspection as part of the purchase contracting process. That may occur even if you have a prior inspection as the buyer's due diligence even if you already had one to assure a truly independent inspection. So, there may be no value in your pre-inspection inspection.

Lastly, the home inspector's report has no enforcement weight. They will often note things that are not code requirements, like your GFCI situation. They are not required by code unless the home was built or had a major remodel after they were added to local code requirements. And that date may be long after the NEC was amended. None of the reported deficiencies are required to be fixed, unless the lender or buyer make the requirement. That is in my area, local codes or rules may be different

The home inspector's report is most often used as a negotiating tool to force pricing changes or upgrades, not code enforcement.

You likely already know all that but that was just my preamble to this: I fall in the camp of don't fix anything before the potential buyer's inspector does his or her thing. Leave the fixing to be part of the negotiation. Easy enough to do them later and let the buyer 'win'.

JMHO

[Doug Dawson]

Some of us with "older" homes have found things to not be very logical at all...I will not even go into what I found here when I was renovating our kitchen back in 2003. I didn't know about GFCI breakers then and it took nearly a day and a half to figure out what outlets were on what circuit and that was with a major wall actually open, but with a crawl space that could only be crawled by a toddler, if that. :)
The first thing to do when contemplating electrical in a house is to map out and verify all of the electrical loads (receptacles, lights, machinery, etc.) I like to use a tone generator for this, plug the generator into the receptacle say and look for the signal at the associated breaker. The Extech is very good and is under a hundred bucks. You always have to verify, but with a bit of practice you can get good at it. Keep the map, maybe post it outside the breaker box. “To whom it may concern:” and “Do Not Remove!”

[Jim Becker]

That's how I trace when possible, Doug. But it can still be a challenge. I did get ours mapped out pretty well...I had to because the electrician who did the major upgrade to our service, including replacing the panel, etc., did a poor job labeling things.
-----

Ken, we're in the middle of the inspections dance for the property we are purchasing and awaiting a response from the seller to our asks relative to things uncovered in the inspection. So I agree, it's a negotiation tool. We're asking for some money at settlement. :D When we were buying this property, there was a similar process because the seller had to put in a $25K septic system to even complete a sale...the negotiation netted us a tractor for a small contribution toward the cost of the septic system and the funds for the septic system went into escrow to insure it got done.

The interesting thing about our inspection report for the new property is that the first five pages or so consisted of....disclaimers. :)

And relative to this thread, there fortunately were very little electrical concerns...one open box, one wire in a crawl space that was just lying there and some excess wire coiled in on other location. Plus...the lack of GFCI in the garage.

[Alex Zeller]

If a tool trips a GFI (not a breaker) then I would be be very weirded out by that tool, and I would almost certainly throw it away. That current is not going where it’s supposed to, and I would not want to be anywhere near it. Don’t give it to Goodwill, because they don’t deserve to die either. Their employees are not paid very much.

OTOH you could have a bad GFI, but you’re supposed to test them every month. Newer GFI’s auto-test. They do fail.

It's not that unusual for an induction motor to trip a GFI outlet/ breaker. All a GFI is doing is comparing both the hot and neutral lines. If there's a phase imbalance or a tiny leakage to ground the GFI will trip. If I had a tool tripping a GFI I would spend a little time to find out why. I had to install a non GFI outlet in my garage (against code) because the block heater in my tractor (which is very common) doesn't play with with a GFI.

[Rollie Meyers]

Yes, both provide GFI protection for the receptacles. There's a rub of course. If you're trying to head off a red flag on the inspection, installing GFCI's may not do it. GFCI protection for kitchen receptacles has been required by the NEC since about 1971. Beginning with the 2014 NEC, combination AFCI/GFCI protection is required in for kitchen receptacles.

Generally, you are usually required to meet the code requirements in effect at the time the house was built and/or remodeled. So if your kitchen was remodeled after 2014 and your local jurisdiction adopted the 2014 code before the remodel, then you would need combination AFCI/GFCI protection. This also can be provided with suitable receptacles or with suitable circuit breakers.

The rules about grandfathering and when remodeling requires bringing all affected portions of systems up to current code vary widely from area to area, and many areas don't adopt a given code revision until years after it is issued. It may very well be that adding GFCI's will be "good enough" in your area to avoid a red flag during the inspection; just be aware there is a chance it won't be good enough.

Sometimes it's easier just to have the inspection and deal with the results than it is to try to guess what the inspector will flag.


Back in 1971, only swimming pools & exterior receptacles required GFCI protection, bathrooms were added for 1975, garages added 1978, kitchens in 1987, and then only those serving countertops within 6' of a sink.

This is a list of GFCI requirements, but has not been updated since the 2014 NEC.

_GFCI_requirement_page-2014.pdf (http://jerrypeck.com/IFCN/Other%20Items/_GFCI_requirement_page-2014.pdf)

[Mike Cutler]

Perry

Before you dive down the rabbit hole, don't do anything unless it becomes an issue documented in your closing agreement.
In the 90's, the codes were changing, and depending on the version in effect when the permit for your residence was pulled, you are probably code compliant.
If you try to remediate it yourself, being a good guy, to bring it up to some understanding of the current codes, you may end up shooting yourself in the foot.
In the 90's, the discussion was always how many inches from the source of water was the receptacle, and even then their were arguments as to whether it was 24" from the faucet, the drain, or the edge of the sink.
There was also the interpretation of just how many had to be GFCI protected. In some cases, only one would have to be GFCI protected in the entire room to pass inspection, and the rest would not have to be as long as they were more than the minimum distance.
Unless something is compelling you to remediate those circuits, I would leave them alone.

[Bruce King]

The seller inspection is a good idea because it gives you time to make repairs yourself. If you wait and end up with a smart buyers agent they will require all of the problems related to Hvac, electrical, plumbing and roofing to be repaired by a licensed contractor with a receipt given to the buyer. There is no negotiating your way out of this. There are certain problems that you will need time to repair and some buyers are not flexible at all. They will walk over little things because some inspectors make a mountain out of a mole hill in their efforts to cover their ass. One good example is a crawlspace house with light fungi on the bottom parts of every floor joist. You can wipe it off now or be forced to hire a mold remediation company for $8k. Some buyers don’t care if it’s “fixed”, they will run in a heartbeat. Then the word gets around the realtor crowd, oh, that house has mold issues. Fix everything you can before it’s shown the first time. I sold my 17 yr old house the first day. I had fixed everything and the inspector found nothing legitimate. Got asking price too.


Just a comment on home inspections and the 'normal' process. Most, if not all buyers, will request an independent inspection as part of the purchase contracting process. That may occur even if you have a prior inspection as the buyer's due diligence even if you already had one to assure a truly independent inspection. So, there may be no value in your pre-inspection inspection.

Lastly, the home inspector's report has no enforcement weight. They will often note things that are not code requirements, like your GFCI situation. They are not required by code unless the home was built or had a major remodel after they were added to local code requirements. And that date may be long after the NEC was amended. None of the reported deficiencies are required to be fixed, unless the lender or buyer make the requirement. That is in my area, local codes or rules may be different

The home inspector's report is most often used as a negotiating tool to force pricing changes or upgrades, not code enforcement.

You likely already know all that but that was just my preamble to this: I fall in the camp of don't fix anything before the potential buyer's inspector does his or her thing. Leave the fixing to be part of the negotiation. Easy enough to do them later and let the buyer 'win'.

JMHO

[Doug Dawson]

The seller inspection is a good idea because it gives you time to make repairs yourself. If you wait and end up with a smart buyers agent they will require all of the problems related to Hvac, electrical, plumbing and roofing to be repaired by a licensed contractor with a receipt given to the buyer. There is no negotiating your way out of this. There are certain problems that you will need time to repair and some buyers are not flexible at all. They will walk over little things because some inspectors make a mountain out of a mole hill in their efforts to cover their ass. One good example is a crawlspace house with light fungi on the bottom parts of every floor joist. You can wipe it off now or be forced to hire a mold remediation company for $8k. Some buyers don’t care if it’s “fixed”, they will run in a heartbeat. Then the word gets around the realtor crowd, oh, that house has mold issues. Fix everything you can before it’s shown the first time. I sold my 17 yr old house the first day. I had fixed everything and the inspector found nothing legitimate. Got asking price too.

That is truly excellent advice. Somebody had to say it. I agree totally.

[Bruce King]

Thanks Doug.
I forgot something, many home inspectors think that they only have to do a quick inspection when it’s for the seller. This can cause surprises when the buyer gets a better inspector so make sure to tell them that you expect a thorough inspection.

[Perry Holbrook]

Thanks for all the thoughtful comments. I've decided to call the realtor we plan to use and ask her to order an inspection asap. I think the fee will be well it if nothing more than peace of mind before we list. It is an old house, with lots of revisions over the years. There are other areas I have concerns about in addition to the GFI's. The idea of addressing them now rather than later appeals to me.

I hope the inspector will allow me to politely observe.

Thanks again.

Perry

[Thomas McCurnin]

Perry

Before you engage that inspector, remember who is referring you and what his/her agenda is. The realtor wants to make a sale, and will likely use an inspector he/she uses that will better facilitate the closing of the transaction, which could miss some things. I would get a truly independent inspector, not tied to this deal in any way, shape or form. Remember, the inspector wants repeat business from the realtor and I've seen where the inspector intentionally or negligently glosses over items so that the buyer will be unaware of the defects and the transaction will close.

I want an SOB stringent inspector that finds everything. Whether or not I want to let an item slide will be my decision. But if it is omitted in order to have a smooth closing, then you have no say-so. Bear in mind as Jim pointed out, the inspection is full of disclaimers, and one in particular is troubling which is if the inspector screws up, your damages are limited to the cost of the inspection.

[Jim Becker]

Thomas, while there are some buyer's Realtors that will "butter their own bread" with their suggestions for things like inspectors who might overlook things, there are ,amy more who are very much on the up and up. No Realtor worthy of selling your home is going to recommend a pre-listing inspector that's going to hide things because that would not help facilitate the transaction. In this case, Perry is going to get an inspection pre-listing on his own home. There's no skin in the game for the selling Realtor here for a shoddy inspection; quite the opposite, in fact. The ultimate transaction will likely go smoother if Perry can address things before the listing goes live.

In fact, I'm in the middle of this from both ends right now. The inspector we hires for our soon to be new home was very thorough...we were there for three hours...and we are awaiting a response from the homeowners to the identified concerns. Our buyer Realtor (who will also be selling our home) provided a list of six different inspection companies in the area as a convenience. The sellers are clearly researching what we asked for even with the generous concessions we made. They apparently didn't get things looked at before listing...some of it was truly stupid stuff! At the other end of the spectrum, I'm also in the "punch list" process of preparing our current property for sale. We may or may not engage for a formal pre-listing inspection because I do know where most of the (very small) skeletons live and they are being addressed. In fact, I've been working on them for awhile now. But engaging for a pre-listing inspection hasn't been ruled out...we may spend the $600 to do just that to be sure we didn't miss anything material that would screw up or delay a sale.

[Thomas McCurnin]

As a retired lawyer, I have extension experience with inspectors hired by realtors. Not all of them are in the pocket of the realtor, but enough to warrant an independent inspection. Enough said. A seller inspection is not as critical as a buyer's inspection.

[Perry Holbrook]

I'm so thankful I started this discussion. Had the inspection done today by a very professional guy. The kitchen is supplied from 3 different circuits, easiest fix will be GFI breakers. But the best part is he found no major issues. Several ungrounded receptacles, remember old house wired back then without ground. He said new non-ground recept will fix those. Most expensive repair will be to clean up the crawl spaces and fix some insulation in those areas.

So glad I decided to spent those bucks before we list.

Perry

[Malcolm McLeod]

... I fall in the camp of don't fix anything before the potential buyer's inspector does his or her thing. Leave the fixing to be part of the negotiation. Easy enough to do them later and let the buyer 'win'.

JMHO

In some jurisdictions, if a seller's (pre-market) inspection reveals ANY issue and seller does not reveal that to the buyer, then the buyer has recourse on a 'failure to disclose'. No matter what the buyer's inspection finds. Y'all can decide what 'recourse' entails in your particular jurisdiction.

Sometimes ignorance IS bliss.

--------
FWIW, as a buyer, I'd want to spec and oversee the repairs of any inspection faults. I can decide what a given issue means to me, what to spend (or not), and what a fix looks like - - and not allow someone I'll never see again to make those decisions for me. ...While I stare at the result every day. Price gets negotiated accordingly.

From the seller's perspective, it also seems easier, "If I give the buyer $xxx off the price, I can move out and never look back..?!? Done and DONE!"