Narex Richter vs Stanley Sweetheart 750?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

After reading dozens of threads here and articles at other websites, including FWW, February 2nd I ordered a set of 4 Narex Richter chisels and the previously mentioned sharpening supplies. The chisels I ordered from Lee Valley. Initially they showed out of stock with an expected receiving date at Lee Valley of February 22nd, then it pushed out to a date in March and now onto April 1. The chisels are no longer available online at LV.

Yesterday I considered cancelling the order and buying some replacements. One of the replacements I was considering was the Stanley Sweetheart 750's. I never could find the RC number for them but I was willing to consider them Until....I saw a video comparison of the 750's vs the Narex Richter by a guy who has used the Stanley 750's for over 5 years, liked them and then received a set of Narex Richter chisels. When he showed the side by side comparison of a side of of the chisels, I decided I'd wait for the Narex. The consistent narrow edge on the Narex Richter like the edge of the one Veritas PM-11 I have sold me on the Narex over the Stanley Sweetheart 750s.

I considered other chisels as well, the Narex Premiums, the Veritas 01, the LN bevel edged, The Two Cherries bevel edged, and the Wood River bevel edged. Some were just too great an expenditure for me to consider as a rank amateur hobbyist on a fixed income and some just had too many bad reviews on quality.

Here's hoping that when they arrive, I am not disappointed! :rolleyes::D

The little kid in me is starting to get anxious for my new toys to arrive!:o

[Bob Jones 5443]

It’s been a tough year for in-stock tools. Good luck and I hope your patience pays off.

[Bob Jones 5443]

Ken, I don't know about the Richter line, but you might want to hold out for them.

I have one 750: a 1/8" I was able to snag early last year to supplement my standard Narex set that only went down to 1/4". It was fine at first. Then I picked up a gently used Lie-Nielsen set from a Creeker that included a 1/8". That's when a side-by-side comparison shows me the Lie-Nielsens have a much smaller land.

That's the 750 on the right:
453995


Here's the 750 on the left:
453996


By the way, in the other sizes, my 15-year-old "Classic" Narex bevel-edge chisels have lands that are imperceptibly larger than those on the Lie-Nielsens. There's no meaningful difference. I try to use the Lie-Nielsens for chopping and the Narexes for paring.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Ken, I don't know about the Richter line, but you might want to hold out for them.

I have one 750: a 1/8" I was able to snag early last year to supplement my standard Narex set that only went down to 1/4". It was fine at first. Then I picked up a gently used Lie-Nielsen set from a Creeker that included a 1/8". That's when a side-by-side comparison shows me the Lie-Nielsens have a much smaller land.

That's the 750 on the right:
453995


Here's the 750 on the left:
453996


By the way, in the other sizes, my 15-year-old "Classic" Narex bevel-edge chisels have lands that are imperceptibly larger than those on the Lie-Nielsens. There's no meaningful difference. I try to use the Lie-Nielsens for chopping and the Narexes for paring.

Bob, that was the type of comparison that the guy on youtube did and he said that the Narex Richter line stayed sharper longer than the 750s.

[chris carter]

I have a single Richter chisel in 1/2". I wanted to give it a go and see if it lived up to the hype. It does. Aside from the steel, it is just really comfortable. I would just go on Amazon and get the ones they have in stock, which looks like everything except the 1/4". You can get that one down the road.

[Tim Best]

Worth the wait. I have 2 Richters and 2 Narex premium chisels. The difference is noticeable even to my neophyte hands and eyes. The back of the Richters are close to flat out of the box. The same cannot be said of the Narex premium line. The Richters also take edge faster and hold an edge longer. I actually “unicorned” the 2 premium chisels to reduce edge failure. I really like the handles on the Richter line. The horn beam is solid but not too heavy. The premium line feels dainty in comparison. I also really like the handle shape of Richter line. The lands on the Richters are noticeably thinner which I have found really helpful while cleaning up dovetails.

I disagree with Chris on one point. Either wait for them from Lee Valley or order from Highland or some other wood working outlet. Nothing against Amazon (I spend money there all the time) but there is something to be said about buying from LV or Highland or others that specialize in wood working. Just my preference.

[Michael J Evans]

I have the Richter set and compared to my vintage chisels they are great.
I've found that for chopping I needed to increase from the factory 25 bevel to a 30 bevel.
I also read somewhere (maybe on narex website) that the first bit of the edge may be soft and need a couple of sharpening, I didn't know that when I first got them.
All in all I'm very happy with them. Flattening was a dream compared to some buck chisels I had bought new and even compared to a standard narex I had.

[Alan Schwabacher]

You could take a look at Tay Tools. While their Narex Richter sets are sold out, they do have some sizes of individual chisels left. You could choose a few that would complement the set you ordered from Lee Valley.

[Aaron Rosenthal]

Ken I have 2 of the Richters, a 1 1/2" and a 3/8". I alsoave a compete set of Ridgeway (Marple) chisels.
Everything you hear about the Narex Richter is true. I'm waiting until more stock arrives at my local Lee Valley to get the rest of the set, but my big one, I sharpened/honed, and got to work building a timber frame back gate using 4x4 treated, bridle joints and half-laps. The edge is still great after all that work.

[Ron Kanter]

I ordered a few of the Narex Richters from Taylor Tools.
Good company to work with.

[Thomas Wilson]

The Richters are highly polished which is pretty, but on mine, the polishing rounded the edge ever so slightly. I haven’t finished the widest chisel. When I go to the shop, I will try to remember to take a picture. It takes a lot of flattening on diamond stone to get it right. If you flatten on water stones, you might never notice it. I have the modern 750s also. I have had them awhile but I recall just needing to polish away some scratches. They were pretty flat.

You might want to get both. I have a set of “good” chisels that I save for finest paring and an “everyday” set for chopping.

[Thomas Wilson]

The Richters are highly polished which is pretty, but on mine, the polishing rounded the edge ever so slightly. I haven’t finished the widest chisel. When I go to the shop, I will try to remember to take a picture. ...

You might want to get both. I have a set of “good” chisels that I save for finest paring and an “everyday” set for chopping.

Sorry to be so slow on getting back to this. Here is the photo of the Narex Richter chisel. It is hard to get a good image when the main thing to see is a difference in reflection. Anyway, you can see a different scratch pattern at the edge and along the sides which I believe is due to over aggressive polishing. I stopped working on this one at a pretty coarse grit on the diamond stone. I will get there eventually.

454464

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Here is the photo of the Narex Richter chisel. It is hard to get a good image when the main thing to see is a difference in reflection. Anyway, you can see a different scratch pattern at the edge and along the sides which I believe is due to over aggressive polishing. I stopped working on this one at a pretty coarse grit on the diamond stone. I will get there eventually.

454464

That looks like there is a hollow immediately behind the edge.

[Bob Jones 5443]

Sorry to be so slow on getting back to this. Here is the photo of the Narex Richter chisel. It is hard to get a good image when the main thing to see is a difference in reflection. Anyway, you can see a different scratch pattern at the edge and along the sides which I believe is due to over aggressive polishing. I stopped working on this one at a pretty coarse grit on the diamond stone. I will get there eventually.

454464

Thomas, what did you use to work this chisel? From the photo it looks like there are deep pits in the surface, not to mention the sides and edges aren’t sharp. Are your stones flat?

[Gary Focht]

Sorry to be so slow on getting back to this. Here is the photo of the Narex Richter chisel. It is hard to get a good image when the main thing to see is a difference in reflection. Anyway, you can see a different scratch pattern at the edge and along the sides which I believe is due to over aggressive polishing. I stopped working on this one at a pretty coarse grit on the diamond stone. I will get there eventually.

454464

I just went and looked at my two Richter chisels. I think Thomas is correct that they rounded the edge with the polishing. Definitely not as sharp an edge between the back and the sides as with my Marples. Mine were not much trouble to flatten (except for that rounded edge I hadn’t noticed before) and they seem to perform ok in the little bit of testing I have done with them, but if that edge needs to be sharp, then there is an issue.

[Thomas Wilson]

Thomas, what did you use to work this chisel? From the photo it looks like there are deep pits in the surface, not to mention the sides and edges aren’t sharp. Are your stones flat?

I used very flat diamond steel plates. Flatness of the stone is not the problem. Unlike water stones that build up swarf that can conform to slight hollow and polish into it, the diamond plate shows every imperfection. It will just take some more work.

The spots are actually a little surface rust. I must have been a bit frustrated and did not dry and oil the chisel when I quit flattening the back. I used some steel wool to remove it. It oiled now

[Mike Brady]

It's too bad that Narex chose to machine polish their Richter chisels. Back in the days before LN and Lee Valley, Two Cherrys chisel's manufacturer committed that same error and even lacquered the blades. Eventually they faded from the popularity with woodworkers.

[Jacob Mac]

I have a full set of the Stanley Sweethearts, and I don't care for them. They were nowhere close to flat, don't hold an edge, and aren't balanced very well. The last is all subjective, they don't feel good in my hand. But the edge folding over is all Stanley's fault.

So I think you made a good choice bypassing the Stanley.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

At a local woodworking club meeting last week, I had the opportunity to fondle a set of Stanley Sweetheart chisels. For me, I think I made the right decision to stay with the Narex Richter. It's all subjective! It is merely a matter of personal opinion and preference.

[Bob Jones 5443]

I like Narex chisels; I've owned their standard set for many years. Recently I bought their two 1/4" skewed chisels. That brought back the memory from my first set: Narex uses a very tenacious coating on the metal for shipping. That coating must be scrupulously removed before any steps are taken to flatten the back. Maybe that's what's getting in the way, Thomas? The coating on mine was a bear to remove.

[Thomas Wilson]

Bob, no. The chisels are coated with oil. Wipes right off.

[Charles Guest]

It's too bad that Narex chose to machine polish their Richter chisels. Back in the days before LN and Lee Valley, Two Cherrys chisel's manufacturer committed that same error and even lacquered the blades. Eventually they faded from the popularity with woodworkers.

They sell them unpolished:

https://www.amazon.com/Cherries-500-9060-Chisel-Wooden-Unpolished/dp/B01GIFFUC8

[Mike Brady]

Two Cherries was apparently the design inspiration for the notorious Aldi chisels of recent years. Is it true that Aldi is no longer selling Paul Sellers' favorite chisels in the U.S.?

[Rob Lee]

Hi Ken -

Narex has been hit hard by COVID - with lots of production disruption. We don't know when receive our earliest order (placed Aug 2020), let alone the six orders placed since then. The dates are jumping around a lot - as we update with information from the factory. We are currently showing a cluster of deliveries Around June 14th - but I have a low level of confidence that there will be enough available to release any for sale - most are spoken for.

Welcome to the new "normal".... long stock outages, punctuated by price increases, as plants scramble to secure raw materials, labor, and even transportation.

We have many vendors now quoting in excess of six months to supply - with lead times exceeding a year for some tools. We now have almost 1 1/2 years of inventory on order with Narex alone.

This is going to take the entire industry a long time to recover from.... I personally think things won't be back to normal for 12-18 months.

Cheers (I guess....),


Rob

[John C Cox]

They sell them unpolished:

https://www.amazon.com/Cherries-500-9060-Chisel-Wooden-Unpolished/dp/B01GIFFUC8

I got a set of the unpolished Two Cherries chisels after hearing the siren song about the evils of machine polishing ruining geometry...

I should have gotten the polished ones, as the unpolished ones were nowhere close to flat. About half of them had humped backs. Yes, once I flattened them, they were flat, but from what I saw, they machine pre-heat treatment like so most other companies.

The second difference that folks don't talk about... The unpolished chisel set only has 2 or 3 different sizes of handles, where the polished chisel set has handles graduated for each individual blade.

And last... The unpolished set costs almost 50% MORE than the polished set because of market competition... So much for lowering cost by cutting frills and final finishing operations..

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Hi Ken -

Narex has been hit hard by COVID - with lots of production disruption. We don't know when receive our earliest order (placed Aug 2020), let alone the six orders placed since then. The dates are jumping around a lot - as we update with information from the factory. We are currently showing a cluster of deliveries Around June 14th - but I have a low level of confidence that there will be enough available to release any for sale - most are spoken for.

Welcome to the new "normal".... long stock outages, punctuated by price increases, as plants scramble to secure raw materials, labor, and even transportation.

We have many vendors now quoting in excess of six months to supply - with lead times exceeding a year for some tools. We now have almost 1 1/2 years of inventory on order with Narex alone.

This is going to take the entire industry a long time to recover from.... I personally think things won't be back to normal for 12-18 months.

Cheers (I guess....),


Rob

Rob,

Thanks for taking the time to give me a personal update!

When I shop, my wife will tell you I research everything to the maximum. In my research, I notice that most, if not all, respected retailers of woodworking tools are showing extended availability dates as well. Being retired from two well known global corporations, I have dealt professionally with parts coming from around the world. I understand the problem.

Thanks again for the update.

[Mike Brady]

Rob Cosman does a comparison between Richters and WoodRiver chisels in this video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWoeCMX6JcE I see Rob as a craftsman and a salesman, and he is well quailified for both roles. I was impressed with his candor and I felt his objectivity was maintained. Those of you looking at Richters would be informed by his testing. I know I wouldn't buy more 750's based on my experience with the two I bought, not would I be happy with the Richters from his testing. The polished backs are definitely a drawback on an already rather thin chisel as you have to hand lap them to get them back to flat.

[Rick Dettinger]

Two Cherries was apparently the design inspiration for the notorious Aldi chisels of recent years. Is it true that Aldi is no longer selling Paul Sellers' favorite chisels in the U.S.?

Amazon lists some chisels that look just like the Aldi ones, called "Basement Cr-V Professional Wood Chisels". They are about $16 for the set of 4. I suspect that a factory in Asia somewhere makes these chisels, and prints whatever name on them that somebody wants. Some of the reviewers implied that the chisels were the same as the ones on Paul Sellers youtube channel. The reviews were generally positive for $4 chisels! The chisels are 10-5/8 inches long, half of which is handle.

Best,
Rick

[David Bassett]

Rob Cosman does a comparison between Richters and WoodRiver chisels in this video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWoeCMX6JcE I see Rob as a craftsman and a salesman, and he is well quailified for both roles. I was impressed with his candor and I felt his objectivity was maintained. Those of you looking at Richters would be informed by his testing. I know I wouldn't buy more 750's based on my experience with the two I bought, not would I be happy with the Richters from his testing. The polished backs are definitely a drawback on an already rather thin chisel as you have to hand lap them to get them back to flat.

"Feel" is very individual, so everyone's choices will be different even if there aren't price and availability differences.

I watched Cosman's video and I'm not sure I agree it presents an universal truth. He seemed to have two major complaints about the Richters, which seemed to be their bevel / back corners were rounded and that they were thin along their length. I have a WR Socket chisel and a Narax Richter chisel. Neither has sharp sides, both are rounded, though maybe, just maybe, the Richter a little more. It seems to me, with my sample size of one, that Rob drew a conclusion based on his sample size that could be attributed to manufacturing variation more than design variations. His other complaint was the thickness of the chisel body. Warren repeatedly has told us traditional chisels were thinner and this is preferable. I'll also leave this to personal preference, but anyone reading this thread should realize this would be a feature for some.

As far as providing my own review of my two of these chisels, can't do it. The Ashley Iles chisels, in similar price range, felt better to me and proved to meet my needs well. I never added to my single WR or Richter or used them much.

[David Bassett]

... Is it true that Aldi is no longer selling Paul Sellers' favorite chisels in the U.S.?

Don't know what they'll do in the future. But realize these were always seasonal, sold sometime before Father's Day most years. (Sort of an "end cap" feature in their basically grocery store.) OTOH- I do recall some discussion the Chisels had changed some in the last year or two. Not sure which you're remembering.



Amazon lists some chisels that look just like the Aldi ones, called "Basement Cr-V Professional Wood Chisels". They are about $16 for the set of 4. I suspect that a factory in Asia somewhere makes these chisels, and prints whatever name on them that somebody wants. Some of the reviewers implied that the chisels were the same as the ones on Paul Sellers youtube channel. The reviews were generally positive for $4 chisels! The chisels are 10-5/8 inches long, half of which is handle.

Best,
Rick

I'm pretty sure this is consistent with the Aldi chisel's origin, but the product from the same line can be specified differently. So same factory line doesn't necessary mean exactly the same quality. I remember seeing a Force, or something very similar, maybe Workforce, set that looked identical. I was thinking HF, but don't see that brand on their website. What they do carry doesn't look that different versus my memory though. (Found pictures, Aldi's were labeled Workzone and the HF ones have more ornate handles, so maybe a parts substitution or a competitor down the street.)

If I recall the Aldi set's buzz was not about their design, but rather the quality their clunky design seem to deliver at their bargain price. Mostly the heat treatment. Seems like, e.g. HF, suffer from hit or miss heat treatment, but the Aldi's seemed fairly consistent. I hope they're not gone, they provided a decent really cheap option and provided much sport for woodworkers, with better sets, reworking their rough spots. :)

[Mike Brady]

Those are all relevent points that you raise David. Thanks for the response.

[chris carter]

Based on my one Narex Richter chisel, this whole rounded sides thing is completely overblown. Mine are eased so they don’t hurt when you are holding the blade and chopping. They are not eased enough to actually affect the work in any way. Lots of people complain about sharp edges – I think Lie Nielsen is one that comes up a lot.

Video of the "rounded" edge of my Narex Richter. Hard to shave and hold the camera at the same time, but you get the idea.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/XfHK9QR3cDfENSPe8

[Thomas Wilson]

Based on my one Narex Richter chisel, this whole rounded sides thing is completely overblown. Mine are eased so they don’t hurt when you are holding the blade and chopping. They are not eased enough to actually affect the work in any way. Lots of people complain about sharp edges – I think Lie Nielsen is one that comes up a lot.

Video of the "rounded" edge of my Narex Richter. Hard to shave and hold the camera at the same time, but you get the idea.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/XfHK9QR3cDfENSPe8
I initiated the discussion of rounding. I agree that the significance should not be exaggerated. My observation was about rounding or dubbing at the cutting edge which makes a difference in the ability to sharpen the chisel. I can flatten it to my satisfaction which I indicated. Others might not even notice if they used a less flat sharpening medium. I have flattened far worse chisels and plane blades successfully. The point is that if you want a really sharp chisel the work of flattening should be factored into a decision to purchase them.

[Jim Koepke]

His other complaint was the thickness of the chisel body. Warren repeatedly has told us traditional chisels were thinner and this is preferable. I'll also leave this to personal preference, but anyone reading this thread should realize this would be a feature for some.

That is the case for me. My Buck Brothers chisels are appreciated for their blades with very thin lands on the sides.

One the other hand my Witherby bevel edged chisels tend to be thicker with taller lands.

jtk

[john jesseph]

I watched his video when I was gathering information on Richter chisels. I already have a few sets of decent chisels, including Bergs, PMV11, and Japanese chisels. Just part of my curious streak, and “catch and release” as Rob Lee once wrote.

First thing I asked myself was why he was comparing a tang chisel to a socket chisel. Wood River makes tang chisels that are a more direct comparison.

I do question how aerospace mirror flat the backs need to be. Particularly mirror polish all along the back.

I also question how narrow the side lands need to be. A super sharp land like on the Lee Valley creates a stress point on the corner that makes it very prone to damage. The PMV11 chisels are too sharp on the sides as they come, and will cut your fingers- need to be eased.

Just some thoughts...


Rob Cosman does a comparison between Richters and WoodRiver chisels in this video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWoeCMX6JcE I see Rob as a craftsman and a salesman, and he is well quailified for both roles. I was impressed with his candor and I felt his objectivity was maintained. Those of you looking at Richters would be informed by his testing. I know I wouldn't buy more 750's based on my experience with the two I bought, not would I be happy with the Richters from his testing. The polished backs are definitely a drawback on an already rather thin chisel as you have to hand lap them to get them back to flat.