The OTHER thing electric cars need

[Rick Potter]

The thread on noise for electric cars reminded me of one other thing they need. A yellow warning light in the CHMSL (Center High Mounted Stop Light), to warn drivers behind that they are using regeneration mode to slow down, and not the brakes.

My plug in hybrid, like most, has almost one pedal driving, with the regeneration mode working. It slows down about like normal braking speed until I hit the brake for the last 10 feet or so, finally energizing the brake lights. I keep a pretty close eye on drivers behind me to be sure they know I am stopping.

Hard to believe no one has addressed this yet. Most BEV drivers seem to do the same thing around here, where Tesla's are pretty common.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

There is something out there for motorcycles that senses when the rider is trans-braking, ie gearing down to slow down, and it flashes the tail light to signal other motorists behind the rider that they are slowing down. It would be a good idea for electric cars as well.

[Jim Matthews]

The thread on noise for electric cars reminded me of one other thing they need. A yellow warning light in the CHMSL (Center High Mounted Stop Light), to warn drivers behind that they are using regeneration mode to slow down, and not the brakes.

KIA already does this, based on deceleration.

****

Do the rear brake lamps come on when using my EVs regenerative braking?
Avatar Technical and Warranty Team
February 27, 2021 00:53
Follow


The rear brake lamps may activate while the vehicle is using regenerative braking. The brake lights will activate depending on how quickly the vehicle is decelerating.

Deceleration not greater than 0.7 m/s² (meters per second squared) = Brake lamps will not activate
Deceleration between 0.7 m/s² and 1.3 m/s² (meters per second squared) = Brake lamps may activate
Deceleration greater than 1.3 m/s² (meters per second squared) = Brake lamps will activate

***

https://support.kia.co.nz/hc/en-us/articles/360031225271-Do-the-rear-brake-lamps-come-on-when-using-my-EVs-regenerative-braking-

[Jim Becker]

The thread on noise for electric cars reminded me of one other thing they need. A yellow warning light in the CHMSL (Center High Mounted Stop Light), to warn drivers behind that they are using regeneration mode to slow down, and not the brakes.

My vehicle is not electric or hybrid. I don't use the brakes to slow down much at all...I let the vehicle coast for that. (It's a key contributor to why I generally get very long brake life in my vehicles) I honestly don't drive any differently than I did with the three hybrids we have owned in past times. But I can appreciate what you mention for sure.

[Dave Seng]

The thread on noise for electric cars reminded me of one other thing they need. A yellow warning light in the CHMSL (Center High Mounted Stop Light), to warn drivers behind that they are using regeneration mode to slow down, and not the brakes.


Why would you want a different color warning light for a different kind of slowing down? Slowing down is slowing down no matter what kind of vehicle. As a driver, why should I need to learn and interpret what a yellow light means? Why not just activate the brake lights when any kind of braking is occurring?

[ChrisA Edwards]

There is something out there for motorcycles that senses when the rider is trans-braking, ie gearing down to slow down, and it flashes the tail light to signal other motorists behind the rider that they are slowing down. It would be a good idea for electric cars as well.

Not sure that's an OEM thing, many riders will fit auxiliary red strobe lights, that activate with the brake system. Very common in the Goldwing and touring circles. I also did it on a couple sports bikes as well.

Many motorcyclists get rear ended when they are stopped at traffic lights. The strobe gets the attention of a car driver better than either a solid on or off brake light. Many of these devices are sold specifically for motorcycles and are legal in most states, but they usually flash 3 or 4 times and then go sold on while the brakes are being applied, which doesn't help the stationary rear ending situation, therefore some prefer to use the auxiliary strobes, that have programable patterns, that continue to strobe while the brakes are engaged, whether the bike is moving or not. These can be very annoying to drivers following, especially in stop and go, but the purpose is to get attention.

[Bill Dufour]

They should all have a 120 volt outlet and an arc welding jack.
Bill D

[Bernie Kopfer]

My vehicle is not electric or hybrid. I don't use the brakes to slow down much at all...I let the vehicle coast for that. (It's a key contributor to why I generally get very long brake life in my vehicles) I honestly don't drive any differently than I did with the three hybrids we have owned in past times. But I can appreciate what you mention for sure.

Your cloned brother lives in my town. He starts slowing down a half mile before a stop sign or light in order to save on brakes. He also accelerates real slowly to save on gas and engine wear. And then complains about tailgaters. 😁🤪

[Doug Garson]

Seems to me it would be easy for manufacturers to program the brake lights so they came on any time the car was decelerating and got brighter the more you decelerate whether you touch the brake pedal or not. Maybe go into strobe mode when hard braking.

[Jim Becker]

Your cloned brother lives in my town. He starts slowing down a half mile before a stop sign or light in order to save on brakes. He also accelerates real slowly to save on gas and engine wear. And then complains about tailgaters. 浪

Scary that there is more than one of me. LOL

[Brian Elfert]

Are you sure the brake lights are not coming on during regenerative braking? Diesel vehicles with exhaust brakes have been required to turn on the brake lights during exhaust braking since the late 1990s.

[Mike Henderson]

I read an article about electric vehicles with regeneration and I thought the standard now was that the brake lights come on when you have the regeneration set to "high" and you lift your foot off the accelerator.

I have a couple of "features" I want to see in electric vehicles:

1. "Dog Mode" where you can set the air conditioning to run when you have the car parked. Tesla does this. It will run until the battery gets to some level, such as 25%, and then it will send you a message (text or to your Tesla app) telling you it's going to shut off. Then when it gets to maybe 20% it does shut off. If a car did not have a cellular connection, the app could see what your battery level was when you set "Dog Mode" and tell you it will only operate for (example) 2 hours. Then give you an alert at the end of two hours. This is something that can't be done with an ICE car so it's a nice unique feature of an EV. Of course, this is for when you have a dog in the car and can't take it in with you.

2. There are a lot of options on an electric vehicle, level of regeneration is one, creep is another, ride stiffness might be another, etc. Different drivers want different settings. I'd like to see the car offer multiple profiles so that when you get into the car, you can choose your profile so the car is set the way you like to drive it. They could even link the profile to the key fob so that when a driver approached the car from the driver's side, the profile associated with that fob would be set. They could even set the seat and mirrors the same way.

Then there are a few that have probably been implemented:

1. I want a display showing the cars around me as I drive. I think Tesla does this by showing your "car" in the center of the screen (in one color) and cars around your car in a different color. This is just representative, the boxes don't look like cars - just boxes.

2. I want to be able to see all the charging stations around me and whether they are in use. Additional information would be how much they charge for a charge (there might be some free ones).

3. I want to have the car support ApplePlay so I can use the navigation on my phone instead of the built in navigation.

4. I want a display showing if I'm pulling power from the battery or putting it back in, and the level of each. A pointer that points straight up for neutral and moves one way for using power and the other way for regeneration would be good. How far the pointer swings would indicate the amount of each. Would help encourage more economical driving.

What features do you want?

Mike

[Roger Feeley]

I slow down and accelerate very smoothly. It goes back to my teen years. I had my license but my dad wouldn’t turn me loose with the car until I passed his test. He got in the back seat and put a modest size aquarium on the floor. He filled the aquarium to about 3” from the top. He gave me the route in advance. When I could drive that route without spilling any water, he would give me keys. For some reason the lesson stuck.

[Ed Aumiller]

Mike,
Prius has item 4 showing power usage, where it comes from, etc..
Both my 2011 & 2020 have them..

Also, the 2020 shows if a car is in the BLIND spot...

Most new Toyota hybrids (not all) have ApplePlay....

Note: The A/C will run until battery is low, then gas engine will start to recharge batteries... It will NOT send a message.. Semi-dog mode ????
Also, in winter the heater works the same way... starts/stops automatically to keep inside warm...

Agree with the brake lights coming on when slowing down... I try to tap brake pedal occasionally when slowing down, not enough to actuate brakes, but to turn on lights.

[Doug Dawson]

I read an article about electric vehicles with regeneration and I thought the standard now was that the brake lights come on when you have the regeneration set to "high" and you lift your foot off the accelerator.

I have a couple of "features" I want to see in electric vehicles:

1. "Dog Mode" where you can set the air conditioning to run when you have the car parked.
”Dog Mode”, huh? You could also call it “Baby Mode”. But it would have to be accompanied by a proximity sensor so that when somebody approaches the car, an external speaker plays a recorded message saying “I’m alright Jack, put down the hammer” on repeat. :^)

[Doug Garson]

My 2007 Murano adjusts the driver's seat and mirrors depending on which key fob unlocks the driver's door.

[Mike Henderson]

”Dog Mode”, huh? You could also call it “Baby Mode”. But it would have to be accompanied by a proximity sensor so that when somebody approaches the car, an external speaker plays a recorded message saying “I’m alright Jack, put down the hammer” on repeat. :^)

While some people might do that, leaving a baby in a car unattended is never a good idea, even if you have the air conditioning running.

But I tend to take my dog with me everywhere and sometimes have to leave him in the car. Makes me search for a shady parking spot, maybe in the far reaches of the parking lot. But sometimes there just isn't a shady parking spot. Having "Dog Mode" would relieve me of some worry about whether the car is getting too hot.

I got much more interested in EVs when Tesla announced Dog Mode, which they implemented with a software download. Some other EVs will let you set a time for the air conditioning to run, like 30 minutes, but then you have a time limit on how long you can leave the dog in the car. Hopefully, others will implement their version of Dog Mode soon.

Mike

[Bruce Lowekamp]

I read an article about electric vehicles with regeneration and I thought the standard now was that the brake lights come on when you have the regeneration set to "high" and you lift your foot off the accelerator.

I have a couple of "features" I want to see in electric vehicles:

1. "Dog Mode" where you can set the air conditioning to run when you have the car parked. Tesla does this. It will run until the battery gets to some level, such as 25%, and then it will send you a message (text or to your Tesla app) telling you it's going to shut off. Then when it gets to maybe 20% it does shut off. If a car did not have a cellular connection, the app could see what your battery level was when you set "Dog Mode" and tell you it will only operate for (example) 2 hours. Then give you an alert at the end of two hours. This is something that can't be done with an ICE car so it's a nice unique feature of an EV. Of course, this is for when you have a dog in the car and can't take it in with you.

2. There are a lot of options on an electric vehicle, level of regeneration is one, creep is another, ride stiffness might be another, etc. Different drivers want different settings. I'd like to see the car offer multiple profiles so that when you get into the car, you can choose your profile so the car is set the way you like to drive it. They could even link the profile to the key fob so that when a driver approached the car from the driver's side, the profile associated with that fob would be set. They could even set the seat and mirrors the same way.

Then there are a few that have probably been implemented:

1. I want a display showing the cars around me as I drive. I think Tesla does this by showing your "car" in the center of the screen (in one color) and cars around your car in a different color. This is just representative, the boxes don't look like cars - just boxes.

2. I want to be able to see all the charging stations around me and whether they are in use. Additional information would be how much they charge for a charge (there might be some free ones).

3. I want to have the car support ApplePlay so I can use the navigation on my phone instead of the built in navigation.

4. I want a display showing if I'm pulling power from the battery or putting it back in, and the level of each. A pointer that points straight up for neutral and moves one way for using power and the other way for regeneration would be good. How far the pointer swings would indicate the amount of each. Would help encourage more economical driving.

What features do you want?

Mike

Teslas do all these things except for ApplePlay. Only the S/X have adjustable suspension, but otherwise you get driver profiles that includes acceleration, braking, etc.

Personally I wish the brake lights came on just a bit earlier, but honestly they aren’t any different than if I was driving a manual transmission. Light deceleration doesn’t turn them on, but would be hard for anyone to run into you slowing down just a little.

Bruce

[Rick Potter]

Great answers guys, I am glad to hear that some newer ones are starting to make the brake lights work with regen. That is a better way than the yellow lights I was advocating. My plug ins are Ford C-max's '13 and '14 models, and my grand daughter has a '19 Honda Insight, which I will check to see if it has the brake lights working that way.

About the A/C, that is one of the things I like best about the cars. I took my other grand daughter to karate lessons before the world stopped, and used to sit in the car waiting for an hour with the air on, and the battery gage hardly moved.

On the other hand, the heater is a terrible battery drain. The silly Ford system used a resistance heater to heat the water in the motor, so the heater would work. I never could convince my wife to start the motor on a cold morning for 5 minutes to warm the water, and then go to electric. I hope the newer Fords have a different system on the plugins.

I imagine they will all use a heat pump of some sort, as they get more common.

[Jim Matthews]

On the other hand, the heater is a terrible battery drain. The silly Ford system used a resistance heater to heat the water in the motor, so the heater would work. I never could convince my wife to start the motor on a cold morning for 5 minutes to warm the water, and then go to electric. I hope the newer Fords have a different system on the plugins.

I imagine they will all use a heat pump of some sort, as they get more common.

While the power drain is obvious, with a battery range over 200 miles, it's not a practical problem.

Resistance heaters are dead simple. Below 25 degrees (understandable scale) heat pumps loose their efficiency advantage. Most of these systems *also* contain a resistive element.

In short - for our milder Winter "uppa heya" the absence of a heatpump makes little difference in comfort or usable range.

My KIA has a web-based app that allows preheating the cabin before unplugging the car. This preserves battery capacity.

The C-Max was an engineering feat, and it's successors are building on what worked best - and including more useful features. By most accounts the new Electric Mustang sorts out most of the first Generation bugs and provides an entertaining drive, too.

I still recommend leasing EVs as the pace of development means next year will be better, for less money.

https://cleantechnica.com/2020/01/21/teslas-other-evs-in-extreme-cold-36c/

[Malcolm McLeod]

While some people might do that, leaving a baby in a car unattended is never a good idea, even if you have the air conditioning running.

But I tend to take my dog with me everywhere and sometimes have to leave him in the car. Makes me search for a shady parking spot, maybe in the far reaches of the parking lot. But sometimes there just isn't a shady parking spot. Having "Dog Mode" would relieve me of some worry about whether the car is getting too hot.

I got much more interested in EVs when Tesla announced Dog Mode, which they implemented with a software download. Some other EVs will let you set a time for the air conditioning to run, like 30 minutes, but then you have a time limit on how long you can leave the dog in the car. Hopefully, others will implement their version of Dog Mode soon.

Mike

Some will see this - and use it - as 'Baby Mode', no matter how many warning beeps, chimes, horns, placards, signed waivers, and reminder texts the manufacturer installs. It's heart breaking to hear of children's deaths associated with distracted/forgetful drivers leaving them in a car, so this beats the alternative.

'I' can't fix the drivers, neither the intentional nor forgetful, so perhaps all vehicles need this A/C or heat feature tied to appropriate occupant sensors - - sensitive even of a sleeping baby? And if there's anyone onboard, it runs until battery or fuel is 99% depleted; no 'Disable' switch nor CPU hack to turn it off. The last 1% of energy is reserved for horn 'alarm' system to alert passers-by, and if vehicle is cell-capable, it does OnStar-like wreck response and calls 911. (Maybe in A/C weather at 10-15%, CPU drops A/C compressor, keeps fan on, and rolls windows down??)

Might save an innocent life.

[Bruce King]

Vehicle technology is great, the forward looking auto braking saved me once. I heard a siren behind me and kept checking the mirrors while the guy in front decides to slam on his brakes. It’s possible that he did it on purpose. I was warned by my insurance agent years ago that people were intentionally slamming on their brakes while in front of expensive cars. Sure enough, about 6 months after she told me, it happened. I could see the guy looking in his rear view mirror and putting his head back onto the headrest. At 55 mph I was following too close. He slammed on the brakes and I just went around him.

[Stan Calow]

Is this more of an issue for EVs because the car slows down significantly more quickly than other vehicles, with foot off accelerator?

[Jim Matthews]

Is this more of an issue for EVs because the car slows down significantly more quickly than other vehicles, with foot off accelerator?

Cars with forward facing Lidar are incorporating auto braking as a safety feature.

[David Bassett]

Is this more of an issue for EVs because the car slows down significantly more quickly than other vehicles, with foot off accelerator?

Normally true these days, I guess. But I remember the days of manual transmissions when a couple aggressive down-shifts couple take off a lot of speed very quickly without any brake lights.

I'm not convinced there's anything problematic an electric car does that's significantly different than, at least some, gasoline engine cars hasn't already done. OTOH- with new technology we are probably more distracted when driving and have the means to correct for mistakes, so why not?

[Kev Williams]

I've long thought that brake lights should actually brighten more, and/or maybe strobe flash, with more braking force. The actual braking force could be measured with a simple G-force unit, like used in trailer brake proportioning controllers. Making the lights go brighter and flash would be cake...

[Malcolm McLeod]

I've long thought that brake lights should actually brighten more, and/or maybe strobe flash, with more braking force. The actual braking force could be measured with a simple G-force unit, like used in trailer brake proportioning controllers. Making the lights go brighter and flash would be cake...

Maybe someone is listening....
Not an EV or deceleration-aware, but son's Kia (Rio) has flashed the center-mount brake light 3 times on initial application of the brake - - since at least 2013. No idea of the efficacy or if it will be 'a thing' in future? Not even sure they use it across their entire product line?

[Jim Becker]

If I"m not mistaken, the strobe flash thing may not be legal in some jurisdictions.

[Kev Williams]

Yup, I've seen those, on motorcycles too. Bicycles have flashing front and rear lights. The initial flash gets your attention... not sure of the science, but I read/heard many years ago that humans "can't not" see a flashing light. Your brain just sees it...

Last summer one of the LED billboard signs caught my attention nearly a mile away, before each sign change the entire sign flashed every light bright white for a split second before the ad sign. I thought "well that's genius to make that sign flash like that, you can't help but look at it"... when I got close enough, I found out it wasn't anyone's genius, the sign was screwed up! The ads were un-readable, the bright flash was just part of the 'breakage' ;)

But, when in traffic, in particular on the freeway, it's my opinion that many chain-reaction accidents could be prevented if people could tell from 1/4 mile away that severe braking was happening ahead rather than simple slowing down...

[Doug Garson]

A lot of bicycles around here have front and rear strobe lights white in front and red in the rear day and night. They really get your attention much better than a solid light. Haven't seen any cars or motorcycles with strobes, don't know if they are legal. Think they are good idea. With all the concern regarding distracted driving, the number and locations of led billboards amazes me.

[Brian Elfert]

A number of cities around me have banned the electronic LED billboards. I don’t remember why they did so, but I am not sure driver distraction was an issue.

To me, flashing brake lights would just be another distraction. One reason emergency vehicles get hit is because drivers tend to be attracted to the flashing lights. Varying intensity of brake lights seems like another bad idea. If light braking means minimum brake light intensity then how can you see brake lights on a sunny day?

[Doug Garson]

Not sure how something designed to catch your attention would be considered a distraction? Maybe one reason emergency vehicles get hit is because the flashing lights attract them but what are the other 99 reasons? Wonder why, if flashing lights attract, do they put flashing lights on towers and tall buildings near airports?

[Kev Williams]

"minimal" braking would display good ol' regular brightness brake lights. LED's are very easy to make even brighter, or flash, flicker or change colors, or any combination. In most cases the 'hard braking' lights would never come into play. But how many of you, like me, have been following a truck or large SUV at 40mph in semi-rush hour traffic, and when he slows a bit and moves into the left turn lane, you find that every car in front of him is STOPPED. Not only do YOU have to abruptly stop, so does anyone following you! Some REALLY bright flashing brake lights would come in handy...

Reminds me of story, an officer was investigating an accident, some lady drove into the back of a Dodge Li'l Red Express Truck, as fire-engine red as they come--
officer asked her 'so, why didn't you stop'?
Lady sez "I didn't see his brake lights!"
So the officer sez 'Did you happen to see the bright red truck?' (the trucks brake lights were operational...)

anyway... ;)