Prepping and laminating lumber for a benchtop

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

Hi everyone,

I want to start by thanking everyone for being so helpful so far, for such a new member I have been definitely been taking advantage of this forum. as someone who lives in a non woodworker friendly country, this forum has been an incredible resource.

OK here it goes:

I am going to build a split Roubo benchtop 4" thick (or more, depending on what I can get out of the stock) and 62" long (small space).

At my disposal are the following tools: LN 62 LA jack, LN no.7 jointer, LN no. 4, and a 1980' Stanley 4 1/2 that I am tinkering around with. I have a rough panel saw, and a circular saw and a router (the kind that doesn't belong on a Neanderthal thread :p).

the stock is hard maple, kiln dried 2" thick by 5.9" (15cm) which I can get to a max length of 3.5 meters/ 137"/11.4', and minimum length of 3meters/118"/9.8'

here are my questions:

1) considering I am going to choose the boards myself, what a is a reasonable yield per a board? how badly am I deluding myself by thinking that a 137" board can supply 2 62" boards for the laminate? What about one 62" board and one 32" for the legs? how would you approach maximizing the useful lumber?

2) the glue up: my approach right now is to edge joint one side, plane the faces flat, and then glue and clamp them in face lamination. I thought of using cauls with 1" wedges in the top as necessary to push boards of uneven height down and maintain a relatively flat edge on the jointed side. I will have some extra helping hands for this. once I have the 2 laminated slabs I figured I would plane the uneven side and thickness the two slabs roughly even. I am concerned about how long planing the boards will take me. I don't want to finish the boards, get ready for a glue up and find out that they have twisted or warped and need to be planed again.
- Any Idea how to prevent or minimize this?
- Is the caul and wedge thing feasible? I came up with it on my own, and have no idea if it will work
- how many clamps should I get for a 62" lamination (62" x 12" x ~4 1/2")?

it should be noted that this is my first hand plane project and I do plan to practice on scrap first but still, I don't expect amazing results from myself as a newbie.

Thanks a lot
Assaf

[Jim Matthews]

It's been done. Consider contacting members that have (recently) posted about it.

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?282599-Split-top-Roubo-bench-build&highlight=Building+a+robot+bench

[Warren Mickley]

I am not sure where you are getting your hard maple, but I would not recommend hard maple from eastern North America. We have two related species that are put in the hard maple category, Acer saccarum, and Acer nigrum. They can have sections that are hard to plane and are rough on plane irons, actually worse than timbers that are significantly harder. In historic times woodworkers often made tables with hard maple legs and tops of another species.

Hard maple is also very poor at absorbing shock. Woods that deaden shock are better for a bench where you are mortising and such. Beech, ash and soft maple are much better in this regard.

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

I wish I had the luxury of choosing where my wood comes from. last time I went to the lumber yard, the sales associate couldn't tell me if they had anything quartersawn or what quartersawn was for that matter!

Israel is an Ikea empire

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

It's been done. Consider contacting members that have (recently) posted about it.

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?282599-Split-top-Roubo-bench-build&highlight=Building+a+robot+bench

Ive already looked at every benchbuilding blog and post I could get my hands on, as well as joined the woodwhisperer guild. my questions are primarily about the approach to taking rough lumber to laminated slab. I couldn't find anything on that (I admit I may have missed something). also the OP of the post has done a really nice job, but I believe he used at least some power tools?

thanks
A

[Robert Engel]

I agree US native hard maple can be hard to plane/subject to tear out & for this reason, before you glue up, make sure all the boards have the same grain direction, or you'll be in for a mess when hand planing. Try to avoid boards that look like they have figure or wavy grain patterns.

I would not wedge anything down, you're working against the stress forces in the wood. Just let the edges go where they want and flatten later.

If you have a router, I would strongly recommend a router flattening jig.

A 4" thick maple top is going to be very strong.

[Daniel Culotta]

Hey Assaf, congrats on embarking on your bench build! Here are a few lessons I've learned from building pieces that are based on large face laminations. Take them for what they're worth, and there are lots of good tips already in this thread as well. And, if you haven't yet, you may check out The Anarchist's Workbench from Lost Art Press. The pdf of the book is free, and even though your design isn't the same it has a lot info that applies to designs that use face laminations.

It's hard to say how much yield you can get from your lumber without seeing it. However, with face laminations remember that the faces can have defects (within reason) because the faces will be glued together, which will stabilize and hide the defects. So as long as the defects don't extend to the edges, you're good. For the bench top, I honestly just look for one clean edge; you put the other edge with defects on the bottom. Considering this, I bet you can get pretty long boards out of your rough stock. You really only need two boards with a clean face for the outsides of each lamination.

Getting bow and twist completely out of the length of long boards can be somewhat challenging. If you can get them "pretty good" (but not necessarily perfect), your clamps will pull them straight during the glue up. Same goes for if they move after planing. If it's just a little, don't worry about it and strong-arm them with the clamps. Doing a dry run with the clamps to see if they can pull the gaps closed will show you if you need to do more work or not.

Orienting the boards with matching grain direction if possible is a good suggestion as it'll make flattening the top easier. If it's not possible and/or the top is giving you fits with hand planes, you could rig up flattening jig for your router as was recommended previously.

I wouldn't worry too much about getting the edges aligned perfectly with cauls. If you've got everything reasonably straight with your No. 7 and your clamps are sitting in the same plane, putting the jointed edges facing down on the clamps should make that side come out reasonably flat without cauls. It'll probably be easier to flatten any slight misalignments afterwards than potentially chasing your tail during the glue-up with a caul system. Hard to say for sure though without seeing the prepped lumber and your clamp set up.

As for the number of clamps, as many as you can get your hands on of course :). I find with thick laminations it helps to have clamps along the top and bottom (as opposed to just a single row of parallel clamps). 3/4" pipe clamps would work well, maybe 6-8 on each side? You might start with four or five on each side, then add additional clamps where there are gaps.

Hope that helps, and good luck!

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

Hey Assaf, congrats on embarking on your bench build! Here are a few lessons I've learned from building pieces that are based on large face laminations. Take them for what they're worth, and there are lots of good tips already in this thread as well. And, if you haven't yet, you may check out The Anarchist's Workbench from Lost Art Press. The pdf of the book is free, and even though your design isn't the same it has a lot info that applies to designs that use face laminations.

It's hard to say how much yield you can get from your lumber without seeing it. However, with face laminations remember that the faces can have defects (within reason) because the faces will be glued together, which will stabilize and hide the defects. So as long as the defects don't extend to the edges, you're good. For the bench top, I honestly just look for one clean edge; you put the other edge with defects on the bottom. Considering this, I bet you can get pretty long boards out of your rough stock. You really only need two boards with a clean face for the outsides of each lamination.

Getting bow and twist completely out of the length of long boards can be somewhat challenging. If you can get them "pretty good" (but not necessarily perfect), your clamps will pull them straight during the glue up. Same goes for if they move after planing. If it's just a little, don't worry about it and strong-arm them with the clamps. Doing a dry run with the clamps to see if they can pull the gaps closed will show you if you need to do more work or not.

Orienting the boards with matching grain direction if possible is a good suggestion as it'll make flattening the top easier. If it's not possible and/or the top is giving you fits with hand planes, you could rig up flattening jig for your router as was recommended previously.

I wouldn't worry too much about getting the edges aligned perfectly with cauls. If you've got everything reasonably straight with your No. 7 and your clamps are sitting in the same plane, putting the jointed edges facing down on the clamps should make that side come out reasonably flat without cauls. It'll probably be easier to flatten any slight misalignments afterwards than potentially chasing your tail during the glue-up with a caul system. Hard to say for sure though without seeing the prepped lumber and your clamp set up.

As for the number of clamps, as many as you can get your hands on of course :). I find with thick laminations it helps to have clamps along the top and bottom (as opposed to just a single row of parallel clamps). 3/4" pipe clamps would work well, maybe 6-8 on each side? You might start with four or five on each side, then add additional clamps where there are gaps.

Hope that helps, and good luck!


very helpful, except I need to start saving for more clamps! :P

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

I was planing on flattening it with a router jig. I already planned on checking grain direction, I don't think I can check that on a rough sawn board before I buy it, or is there some sort of wichcraft I'm unaware of?

[Dan Grano]

Hi Assaf. I'm pretty new to this myself, but I just finished a couple of workbench top laminations (out of 8/4 ash) so hopefully I can add a bit to the already great advice you've received. Daniel has already summarized a lot of what I found helpful.

Understanding ahead of time that it's difficult to remove all of the bow and twist out of such long boards is helpful. As Daniel suggests, getting them close and then doing dry fits with clamps to see if you can clamp out any minor gaps should work. Doing your laminations in smaller batches can also help with getting sufficient clamping pressure. I'd also be generous with the glue! Smaller batches could also help you to address your concern about getting the boards clamped up soon after you've dimensioned them.

As far as the time it takes to flatten the full top, it's really not too bad. If you can set up one of your planes for rough removal, that'll speed things up. I have a dedicated scrub plane, but I have also used my LN LA Jack to hog off material (just with the mouth opened up and the blade set for a deep cut). They sell a toothed blade for this, but I found it did just fine with the standard blade.

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

Hi Assaf. I'm pretty new to this myself, but I just finished a couple of workbench top laminations (out of 8/4 ash) so hopefully I can add a bit to the already great advice you've received. Daniel has already summarized a lot of what I found helpful.

Understanding ahead of time that it's difficult to remove all of the bow and twist out of such long boards is helpful. As Daniel suggests, getting them close and then doing dry fits with clamps to see if you can clamp out any minor gaps should work. Doing your laminations in smaller batches can also help with getting sufficient clamping pressure. I'd also be generous with the glue! Smaller batches could also help you to address your concern about getting the boards clamped up soon after you've dimensioned them.

As far as the time it takes to flatten the full top, it's really not too bad. If you can set up one of your planes for rough removal, that'll speed things up. I have a dedicated scrub plane, but I have also used my LN LA Jack to hog off material (just with the mouth opened up and the blade set for a deep cut). They sell a toothed blade for this, but I found it did just fine with the standard blade.


thanks, I think I am begining to feel confident about my build plan - I know about the toothing blade. I ordered the LA jack this week (waited until pay day) and the toothing blade is now sold out and they don't know when it will be back. so it goes. Glad to know you can hog off material with the LA jack though.

[Curt Putnam]

My suggestions:

Read the Anarchist's Workbench (mentioned above)

* Orient the top edge grain so that it all runs the same way

* Pick the piece that you want for the bench front (fewest defects) and mark it

* Glue up in pairs. Then glue the pairs together - repeat until done.

* As long as you glue them in the center you can join two shorter pieces end to end - the glue will hold.
* Put two pieces of angle iron at each end of the boards to be glued so they form a point ^ Put the top edge down on the angle irons. If you boards are straight to begin with then they will be when the glue dries. It will make flattening easier.

Pick your glue carefully. Note that TB III gets soft @ 150°F

Trying to prep all that lumber by hand will be a journey for a neophyte with hand planes. I wish good luck.

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

Thank you

I've read the anarchists workbench. great book and really helpful.
what glue would you suggest using? I was actually hoping for TBIII for the extended work time.

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

OK i looked into it, I can get Titebond II, but not Titebond II extend, do you think that could work? Id be working on laminating a couple of boards at a time...

[Dan Grano]

I imagine Titebond II should work just fine, especially since you're laminating just a couple boards at a time. If the glue starts to tack up a bit and you need to make smaller adjustments, you can back off of the clamping pressure and make hard taps with a rubber mallet or wooden mallet to persuade the boards into place.

[Robert Engel]

I was planing on flattening it with a router jig. I already planned on checking grain direction, I don't think I can check that on a rough sawn board before I buy it, or is there some sort of wichcraft I'm unaware of?

After you’ve surfaced the boards. Look at the faces and check direction of grain sweep. Up and away is the direction you plane in.

[Oskar Sedell]

It has already been said, but if this is your first handplane project I would rethink using hard maple. It might be very tough planing. If it is not too late (boards already bought) there are many suggestions on alternative woods in the book you read by Chris Schwarz. I made mine in doug fir thinking I can always change the top later to ash or oak or whatever but I don´t think I will. The bench is great as it is and was not expensive.

[chris carter]

The idea of building a hard maple Roubo with mainly hand tools makes my whole body hurt. You might want to consider a different material if something else is available to you. My split top is made entirely from douglas fir (our local equivalent to southern yellow pine). While a softwood bench will not stay as pretty as one made from hard maple, there are a lot of other advantages that, for many, outweigh the cons. If bench weight is a factor, throw a bucket of sand or a dumbbell on the bottom shelf. I love my bench, but if I ever desire a hard bench, like someone else mentioned, it’s a simple top swap at any point in the future.

[steven c newman]

Maybe use the same wood the Pharaohs used? Cedars from Lebanon? IF there is any left?

[Eric Rathhaus]

Warren, would white oak be any better than hard maple?

[Mel Fulks]

Lot of bench tops ,over time, will start to show some slightly open joints. But I’ve never seen one fall apart. The small openings are
probably from “ compression ring set” . For brevity: too much wet cloth wipe-offs. I made my top from beech that was just air dried. NOT
air dried and then kiln dried. After machining all the pieces ,yes MACHINING....I didn’t have a bench !! I hand scraped the middle third ,to make the centers just a little hollow before gluing it all up
The bench was used in the shop I was employed in for years . Now it’s in my garage and still showing no
open joints. Your kiln dried bench will be good, but use as little water as possible when cleaning up any glue ,all the factory made tops that
I’ve seen had some open edges....too much water !

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

Lol, I can get regional Cedar.

I am actually considering switching to soft Maple or Euro Beech (the Euro Beech cost 70% of the maple(s)). there are a few unusual considerations for me. I live in an apartment building and my amazing fiancée has agreed to let me set up in a corner of the living room. we will see if she leaves me when she realizes what she's gotten herself into with this.
Honestly, I don't think I will have time to make a mess on a daily basis, so this idea might work. but if it is in the living room, the bench needs to be purdy...

[Warren Mickley]

Lol, I can get regional Cedar.

I am actually considering switching to soft Maple or Euro Beech (the Euro Beech cost 70% of the maple(s)). there are a few unusual considerations for me. I live in an apartment building and my amazing fiancée has agreed to let me set up in a corner of the living room. we will see if she leaves me when she realizes what she's gotten herself into with this.
Honestly, I don't think I will have time to make a mess on a daily basis, so this idea might work. but if it is in the living room, the bench needs to be purdy...

I don't know what Benchcrafted recommended, but Andre Roubo lived in Paris and recommended beech. European beech is almost all grown in highly managed forests. Trees with defects are culled with the result that the lumber tends to be straight grained with few defects. Beech is easier to work with hand tools and is much better at absorbing shock, maybe a little quieter for mortising in an apartment house.

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

I don't know what Benchcrafted recommended, but Andre Roubo lived in Paris and recommended beech. European beech is almost all grown in highly managed forests. Trees with defects are culled with the result that the lumber tends to be straight grained with few defects. Beech is easier to work with hand tools and is much better at absorbing shock, maybe a little quieter for mortising in an apartment house.

You are really making me second guess myself here - I think before I make up my mind ill go get scrap of hard maple and beech and see what I like to work more.
thanks for the advise!

[Prashun Patel]

If it were me, I would get whatever fairly hard wood is readily available. A softer bench - while it will dent easier - will also be more forgiving on the pieces you are working on. A bench will only stay as clean and nick free as the user cares to keep it. A softer wood can also be easier to keep flat. Cedar might be a little too light in mass though.

I wouldn't worry too much about the glue up being perfect (apart from looks). Take reasonable care, but even if gaps appear, a lamination of this kind is incredibly strong and stable and will not affect the flatness or usability of the bench. My bench has some pieces that are quartersawn and some that are flatsawn. An error on my part. But the bench functions perfectly still. The laminations keep everyone honest. One thing I WOULD do is take time to keep the grain orientation in the same lateral direction of the bench. This will help with tearout when you flatten and reflatten.

I think getting (X minus an inch or two off the ends to remove checking)/2 out of an X" long board is doable. I do it all the time. In your application - even more so. When a rustic appearance is not a show stopper, I can tolerate a minor check or skewed cut.

[Ed Mitchell]

1) considering I am going to choose the boards myself, what a is a reasonable yield per a board? how badly am I deluding myself by thinking that a 137" board can supply 2 62" boards for the laminate? What about one 62" board and one 32" for the legs? how would you approach maximizing the useful lumber?

First thing : as the Renaissance Woodworker says: best way to flatten a board is with a saw. In other words, if you have a 137" long board, and all you need is a 62" long board, never, never, never plane the 137" long board. Never. Saw it down to ~64", and suddenly your stock will be twice as flat as it was, but you won't have lost any thickness or width.



- how many clamps should I get for a 62" lamination (62" x 12" x ~4 1/2")?

I was taught clamping pressure radiates outward in approx a 45 degree arc, so you should be able to figure out exactly how many clamps you need. If you take the above-recommended strategy of just clamping a couple of boards together, then clamping those with another set of two boards, then clamping two sets of 4 boards together, etc, you'll need far fewer clamps, but take much more time. Getting the clamping force to clamp 12? 13? 14? faces of 2" maple together takes a lot of clamps. Getting the clamping force to clamp 1 set of maple faces -- not so much. If you can afford the extra days (you'll want to let the glue cure fully, a full day), you won't need to buy a ton of clamps, you won't need help along the way, and you'll be able to get a good result.

Also, about the glue choice -- TB3 is a great choice, but probably not required. Unless you're going to get this bench dripping wet you don't need the water resistance, and the extra set up time won't be necessary either, since with the above strategy you'll just be doing one glue joint at a time -- piece of cake. TB2 will save you a few bucks, but getting TB3 is fine. Both will do a great job. Any PVA glue will probably do a good enough job.

About the wood choice -- hard maple is a great bench choice, that's why Lie Nielsen makes all their benches out of it. Euro Beech, from a carefully managed forest, will probably be a fine choice, too. Hard maple is generally a more stable wood than Euro beech, but not by a big margin. As mentioned above, The Anarchists Workbench shows you can make a great bench out of construction softwood, so don't sweat the choice too much.

Yes, hand planing hard maple is not easy, especially when you have a big area to do. In a way, that's a good thing. This is your first hand plane project, so you'll get tons of practice sharpening, and learning to take a light cut. Workbenches are very forgiving things -- nothing needs to be crazy precise, this isn't a Mars Rover, it's a workbench, and good enough is good enough. I think workbenches are the perfect first hand-tool-only project, because you'll get lots of practice sawing and planing, and if your results are not furniture grade, it doesn't matter, the workbench will still be fine and serve you for the rest of your life.

[Michael J Evans]

If it makes you feel any better when I built my bench (2014 I think), I really didn't understand, straight flat square and or how to make a board straight / flat.
I literally ripped 2x12 fir into 2x3 size. I then planed the boards to a decent finish, but not really true or square. My bench top is 27" wide. I made a 16" & 11" lamination (split top) and while I have some gaps, they haven't opened up any further and TBH, the top is mostly covered in sawdust, shavings / something so they don't bother me in the day to day.
I did end up using a bunch of clamps though to pull everything tight.

[Tom Bender]

A woodshop in the corner of the living room,,,in an apartment building,,,that's going to be challenging. Taking a wholistic look at the requirements involves storage of tools and materials as well as a work surface. And where can you run a router?

As far as planing only with the grain,,,I think you are going to fail in that attempt and have to plane across and against it at times. I see a random orbit sander in your future.

Please don't be discouraged, finding solutions to each small challenge is what make this a rewarding hobby.

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

Please don't be discouraged, finding solutions to each small challenge is what make this a rewarding hobby.


definitely not discouraged, I’ve been planing this for 7 years or so. Beyond appreciating the hand tool approach it will be much cleaner and quieter for me than power tools. When I do use power tools I have a balcony. I have a wall in my apartment 70 inches wide with nothing near it for 6 plus feet. My plan is to build the bench to the wall height, build a cabinet under the bench to store larger tools and jigs (and add weight), and put a wall cabinet over the bench for the majority of the hand tools. I’ll add a light under the cabinet.

not ideal but the best I can hope for.

and I plane to enjoy every minute I can doing it.