Looking for Advice on Kitchen Cabinet/Closet Plywood

[Josh Baldwin]

So I'm building the kitchen cabinets for our new house as well as a custom closet, bookcases, etc. I'm having a hard time understanding and choosing the right plywood.

Everything will be painted white, EVERYTHING! Haha

So would a C-2 Birch (The Cheap Option) be fine since everything will be painted other than the insides of the kitchen cabinets? Only a few of the cabinets will have doors (visible inside carcass) and almost all of them will be drawer based, so not very visible interiors.

or should I upgrade to something else? The people over at Wurth Wood Group are recommending a domestic Maple, but it's still C-2 and almost double the price. I don't think I want to go the MDF route due to the weight and concerns of holding up over time, but maybe someone here can change my mind! Ha

Also, all of the drawers are built from poplar and the drawer faces/doors are maple, but still painted white of course.

I am kind of thinking of going with MDF for the custom closet, but wasn't sure about all of that weight and how it would hold up over time.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

[Julie Moriarty]

I'm in the process of building cabinets for a neighbor. The carcases are made out of 3/4" maple veneer bought from Home Depot, about $50/sheet. It's paintable. The drawers will be made from 1/2" plywood, what Home Depot calls Sandeply. They sell it as paintable plywood. It's pretty plain in the grain category and should do well taking paint.

[John TenEyck]

I recommend you look at PlumaPly - HDF. It has a plywood core and couple of mm's of HDF on both sides. It paints great, even better than MDF because it's denser. And because the core is plywood you can use it for structural application like your pantry. It's not cheap, but it's really nice stuff. I bought it through my full service lumber yard.

https://www.atlanticplywood.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Efficiency-HDF_Ultra-smooth-poplar-core-veneers-covered-with-HDF.pdf

JOhn

[Tom M King]

A few weeks ago, I built some plywood cabinet doors, to replace scratched up ones in the dogroom. I used that Maple ply from Home Depot. It looks like painted plywood, as there are enough imperfections in the surface grain to look a lot like construction sheathing plywood. It was good enough for a dog room, but I wouldn't use it in a kitchen.

Trying to save a few bucks on materials always comes back to bite me, although others seem to get by.

[Josh Baldwin]

A few weeks ago, I built some plywood cabinet doors, to replace scratched up ones in the dogroom. I used that Maple ply from Home Depot. It looks like painted plywood, as there are enough imperfections in the surface grain to look a lot like construction sheathing plywood. It was good enough for a dog room, but I wouldn't use it in a kitchen.

Trying to save a few bucks on materials always comes back to bite me, although others seem to get by.

Yea Tom I haven't had good luck with HD or Lowes plywood myself. Not terrible, but not great either. I think the C2 Birch that my local place sells is similar, but maybe a bit better.

[roger wiegand]

Be very wary of the borg birch plywood. Last time I bought some it had paper thin veneer over voids that rippled and bubbled when painted-- and broke through if you looked at them crosseyed I had to find them, sand through, and fill prior to re-painting. A serious pain. I now spend a few extra bucks to get better material from a real plywood supplier and save hours of time recovering from bad material. Maple or birch will make no difference in your application, but what's under it might.

[Josh Baldwin]

I recommend you look at PlumaPly - HDF. It has a plywood core and couple of mm's of HDF on both sides. It paints great, even better than MDF because it's denser. And because the core is plywood you can use it for structural application like your pantry. It's not cheap, but it's really nice stuff. I bought it through my full service lumber yard.

https://www.atlanticplywood.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Efficiency-HDF_Ultra-smooth-poplar-core-veneers-covered-with-HDF.pdf

JOhn

Hey John can you give me a ballpark on the pricing? My local places are closed til Monday, so just curious. Thanks

[Josh Baldwin]

Be very wary of the borg birch plywood. Last time I bought some it had paper thin veneer over voids that rippled and bubbled when painted-- and broke through if you looked at them crosseyed I had to find them, sand through, and fill prior to re-painting. A serious pain. I now spend a few extra bucks to get better material from a real plywood supplier and save hours of time recovering from bad material. Maple or birch will make no difference in your application, but what's under it might.

What exactly is borg? My local suppliers all just list it as C2 Imported Birch. Any time I ask them questions about quality, etc, they just say "yea it's fine". None of them are very helpful. Just not sure exactly what questions to ask sometimes. Thanks for the help.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Since everything is painted white, why not use melamine for the boxes? In 2008 (13 years ago) I built a set of cabinets for local "Y." They were in the pool house. Boxes made from melamine, shelves plywood, hard wood face frames, MDF core veneer for doors with iron on tape on edges. Remember these are in the pool house, where the humidity is unreal, both summer and winter. No complaints of any kind. Buy your melamine from Wurth, or similar, not the BORGS. It's not the same stuff. Speakjng of Wurth, where are you located, as they are a regional supplier.

[John TenEyck]

Hey John can you give me a ballpark on the pricing? My local places are closed til Monday, so just curious. Thanks

I paid $106/sheet for 3/4" in April 2019. I know, not cheap, but it's dead flat, stays that way, has no voids, and will never show grain lines through the paint. I used it to make a row of cabinet doors/drawers on one end of my kitchen, yep, white, and they look like they came out of a high end factory.

John

[Jim Becker]

What exactly is borg?

The 'borg is a term that a "yuge" number of use have referred to the big box home centers...Home Depot, Lowes, etc. The backward reference is to an alien hive mind that dates back to the original Star Trek series. You have to be really careful with sheet goods from the home centers relative to quality, etc, for cabinetry work, etc. Better quality product is available from real sheet goods suppliers and higher end, independent lumber yards.

[Jared Sankovich]

The 'borg is a term that a "yuge" number of use have referred to the big box home centers...Home Depot, Lowes, etc. The backward reference is to an alien hive mind that dates back to the original Star Trek series. You have to be really careful with sheet goods from the home centers relative to quality, etc, for cabinetry work, etc. Better quality product is available from real sheet goods suppliers and higher end, independent lumber yards.

The HD version of Columbia purebond can be decent (for the price) you still would have to pick through the pile and pull decent sheets.

It stays flat though.

[John TenEyck]

Since everything is painted white, why not use melamine for the boxes? In 2008 (13 years ago) I built a set of cabinets for local "Y." They were in the pool house. Boxes made from melamine, shelves plywood, hard wood face frames, MDF core veneer for doors with iron on tape on edges. Remember these are in the pool house, where the humidity is unreal, both summer and winter. No complaints of any kind. Buy your melamine from Wurth, or similar, not the BORGS. It's not the same stuff. Speakjng of Wurth, where are you located, as they are a regional supplier.


I couldn't agree more for the boxes. When you're done building, you're done; no painting required. Heavy as a mule and the edges will cut you just looking at them, but it's flat, stable, durable, and very reasonably priced.

John

[Cary Falk]

I just finished remodeling my kitchen. I painted the existing cabinets and added a row of 18" cabinets to the top. I used 1/2" prefinished maple plywood from the place I get the rest of my wood. It wasn't overly expensive and I don't think there were any patches. I didn't have to finish the insides. Scuffed up the outside and painted.
453136453137453138

[Brian Backner]

The 'borg is a term that a "yuge" number of use have referred to the big box home centers...Home Depot, Lowes, etc. The backward reference is to an alien hive mind that dates back to the original Star Trek series. You have to be really careful with sheet goods from the home centers relative to quality, etc, for cabinetry work, etc. Better quality product is available from real sheet goods suppliers and higher end, independent lumber yards.

The BORG were not from the original Star Trek series (William Shatner/Leonard Nimoy) of the late 1960s but from one of the sequels: Star Trek: The Next Generation (Patrick Stewart)

[Bill Dufour]

Location, I assume Texas? My local HD has a selection of weird plywoods of unknown species coming from central America and China. It looks like a hardwood veneer of some sort. A light color wood with little grain pattern. I think the supplier and species change with every load. Good luck sourcing more if you need to match it.
They used to have some nice Monterey pine plywood from China. Now it is fewer and much thicker plys and not as good a surface look. It just looks cheap compared to the original.
Bil lD

[Ron Selzer]

Talk to a real sheet goods supplier about Baltic Birch comes in 60"x60", price by skid, bunk whatever term is uses locally should be 2x sheets in 3/4". comes in 1/2" and 1/4" (all nominal size) Should cut at least 25% off of per sheet price. You are talking quite a few sheets for told
Ron

[Josh Baldwin]

Location, I assume Texas? My local HD has a selection of weird plywoods of unknown species coming from central America and China. It looks like a hardwood veneer of some sort. A light color wood with little grain pattern. I think the supplier and species change with every load. Good luck sourcing more if you need to match it.
They used to have some nice Monterey pine plywood from China. Now it is fewer and much thicker plys and not as good a surface look. It just looks cheap compared to the original.
Bil lD

Hey Bill I'm actually in Richmond VA

[Josh Baldwin]

Since everything is painted white, why not use melamine for the boxes? In 2008 (13 years ago) I built a set of cabinets for local "Y." They were in the pool house. Boxes made from melamine, shelves plywood, hard wood face frames, MDF core veneer for doors with iron on tape on edges. Remember these are in the pool house, where the humidity is unreal, both summer and winter. No complaints of any kind. Buy your melamine from Wurth, or similar, not the BORGS. It's not the same stuff. Speakjng of Wurth, where are you located, as they are a regional supplier.

Hey Bruce I'm in Richmond VA. So are there different types of melamine? The way I've always seen it is hard plastic like material that looks super cheap. Am I thinking of the wrong thing here? I was hoping for the matte painted look.

[Josh Baldwin]

I couldn't agree more for the boxes. When you're done building, you're done; no painting required. Heavy as a mule and the edges will cut you just looking at them, but it's flat, stable, durable, and very reasonably priced.

John

Hey John are there nicer types of Melamine that don't look plasticy?

[Jeff Bartley]

Josh,
Wurth is in Richmond, they have as high a quality as you’ll find. I’d give them a call.
They send a truck out here (Shenandoah valley) at least a couple times a week.

[Jim Becker]

The BORG were not from the original Star Trek series (William Shatner/Leonard Nimoy) of the late 1960s but from one of the sequels: Star Trek: The Next Generation (Patrick Stewart)
I stand corrected and you are right...my bad!

[roger wiegand]

The BORG were not from the original Star Trek series (William Shatner/Leonard Nimoy) of the late 1960s but from one of the sequels: Star Trek: The Next Generation (Patrick Stewart)

The other part of the derivation, aside from the resemblance of the large cuboid space ships of the Borg Collective, is their tagline "Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated". When this usage originated back on rec.woodworking in the Usenet era of the interweb small independent hardware stores were still predominant. They were, to a very great extent, assimilated by the Borg.

[Brian Backner]

The other part of the derivation, aside from the resemblance of the large cuboid space ships of the Borg Collective, is their tagline "Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated". When this usage originated back on rec.woodworking in the Usenet era of the interweb small independent hardware stores were still predominant. They were, to a very great extent, assimilated by the Borg.

BORG has also been said to come from: Big Old Retail Giant

FWIW, I built the cabinets for our new kitchen six years ago. Given the amount of work I knew would be required, there was no way I was going to use BORG plywood or even the stuff from higher end lumber yards nearby and need to work around voids, etc.. I ended up going to a specialty supplier (Downes and Reader south of MetroBoston) and special ordered what I wanted direct from Columbia Products: true 3/4" thick prefinished Maple Plywood with two AA faces ) 0.06" thick and 11 core layers of birch with no voids. Stuff was crazy expensive at $145/sheet, I had to buy an entire lift of 50 sheets (the smallest custom order they'd consider), and it took nearly four months for delivery, but I have never regretted the cost once I started working with the stuff. It was by far the best sheet good material I have ever seen - cut so clean, virtually no touch up sanding was needed and it dadoed like a dream. For reference, I was using a Forrest Duraline Hi-AT with a 6" dampener and an 8" DadoKing set. The saw was also fitted out with an original Excalibur 66" crosscut sled dialed in to less than 0.005" variance by the 5-cut method on a 48" square piece of 1/4" MDF. I have found many other places for its use. I only wish I had ordered 75 sheets (or more) to begin with.

[Julie Moriarty]

I don't understand the criticism of borg plywood for carcases and drawer boxes, if you're doing face frames and drawer fronts. When I remodeled our kitchen several years ago, that's what I used and it's holding up just fine. And some of the sides are exposed, like on the sides of the oven and frig. All of the panels here are that Sandeply I mentioned earlier.
http://julimorcreations.com/2220/Kit/Kitchen_053.jpg

And we've had a lot of compliments. No one sees voids in the plywood or the thickness of the veneer.

FWIW, I began cabinet building with high grade materials. But cabinets are not furniture. They are abused and taken for granted and when somebody tires of them or a new owner doesn't like them, they get demolished. So why dump extra money into something no one but yourself will ever appreciate?

[Jon Grider]

I don't understand the criticism of borg plywood for carcases and drawer boxes, if you're doing face frames and drawer fronts. When I remodeled our kitchen several years ago, that's what I used and it's holding up just fine. And some of the sides are exposed, like on the sides of the oven and frig. All of the panels here are that Sandeply I mentioned earlier.
http://julimorcreations.com/2220/Kit/Kitchen_053.jpg

And we've had a lot of compliments. No one sees voids in the plywood or the thickness of the veneer.

FWIW, I began cabinet building with high grade materials. But cabinets are not furniture. They are abused and taken for granted and when somebody tires of them or a new owner doesn't like them, they get demolished. So why dump extra money into something no one but yourself will ever appreciate?

Thank you Julie. I've used carefully selected Borg plywood for several face frame kitchens with few issues. On cabs that have an exposed side, I'm more picky on which sheet to use. At 57 bucks for a 4 X 8', it is a reasonable and affordable solution. Would I prefer to use all high end cab grades? Yes. But the economic situation can influence the material selection, and whether the bid is selected. I find that in my senior years, I love the orange Borgs somewhat reluctant willingness to break the sheet goods down to manageable sizes as well. Well worth the 25 cents per cut to save the back, and imo cost effective as well. As you mentioned, cabs are not furniture, many will be replaced in 10 years.

[roger wiegand]

No one sees voids in the plywood or the thickness of the veneer.

Did you read my post? the veneer on the last stuff I bought from HD was 0.01" thick (think two sheets of typewriter paper). When a water-borne finish was applied to it it buckled and split over the voids, some of which measured up to 3" in diameter. You would have to be blind not to see them.

[Jim Matthews]

Trying to save a few bucks on materials always comes back to bite me, although others seem to get by.

We must be shopping at the same places.

[Austin Perera]

I once used what I thought was a decent birch ply from HD for an aquarium cabinet build. After selecting some sheets that appeared as flat as possible, it wasn't until I was home that I realized how out of square they were cut.

[Julie Moriarty]

As you mentioned, cabs are not furniture, many will be replaced in 10 years.

After I finished the kitchen cabinets in our last house (Honduran mahogany rails & stiles and drawer fronts with ribbon sapele panels),I saw a home reno show where the people happily demolished kitchen cabinets with a sledge hammer. It was at that point it dawned on me that at some point those kitchen or bathroom cabinets you lovingly made will end up in the dumpster. They could be in perfectly good shape, but if they aren't visually appealing to the homeowner, in the trash they go.

[Zachary Caldwell]

A couple of other options to consider is just prefinished maple or birch plywood to save that labor and time. I get it for around $90-100 a sheet but its worth every penny. It is a B-2 grade. Since your doing white another option is called a white cabinet liner. similar to laminate but a very nice plywood. Around 100-120 a sheet for me. Or maybe find a good supplier and get a quote for having a better grade finished. It sounds like you would be using quite a bit maybe.

[Jim Dwight]

For selection the best I know of is Wurth. The closest to me is in Charlotte and also sells some hardwood. They are very easy to work with but clearly selling a lot more to people who use a lot more than I do. But they treat me great when I go there. I would tell them you are looking for cheaper options.

I built a floor to ceiling cabinet that is painted white for my bathroom out of "radiatta" pine plywood from Home Depot. It is cheap and has thick face veneers. One side is clear, the other side is not but most sheets have no pieces missing despite the knots. I used my favorite "resisthane" white tinted finish and the compatible spray primer. It is stain blocking and I have had zero bleed through of knots. I had to sand pretty well with 220 after priming and may have even used two primer coats, I don't remember. But the cabinet came out great and has stayed that way for several years know. Resisthane is a quite durable finish and rated for kitchen cabinets. Easy to spray with my Fuji mini mite 3. I visited the Wurth website and noted they carry this plywood too. For a bargain option, I don't think you can beat it. I don't think it would look great clear finished for the cabinet interiors but only because it is obviously rotary cut pine.

I would not use MDF under any circumstances for cabinets in my house. I hate working with it, it sags way to easily, swells if it gets a tiny amount of water on it, etc. I made cabinets for the basement of my last house out of melamine. They were durable but I would much rather work with plywood. You have to remove the melamine to get a good glue joint and it is noticably heavier than plywood. But it is hugely preferable to MDF for me.

[Jon Grider]

For selection the best I know of is Wurth. The closest to me is in Charlotte and also sells some hardwood. They are very easy to work with but clearly selling a lot more to people who use a lot more than I do. But they treat me great when I go there. I would tell them you are looking for cheaper options.

I built a floor to ceiling cabinet that is painted white for my bathroom out of "radiatta" pine plywood from Home Depot. It is cheap and has thick face veneers. One side is clear, the other side is not but most sheets have no pieces missing despite the knots. I used my favorite "resisthane" white tinted finish and the compatible spray primer. It is stain blocking and I have had zero bleed through of knots. I had to sand pretty well with 220 after priming and may have even used two primer coats, I don't remember. But the cabinet came out great and has stayed that way for several years know. Resisthane is a quite durable finish and rated for kitchen cabinets. Easy to spray with my Fuji mini mite 3. I visited the Wurth website and noted they carry this plywood too. For a bargain option, I don't think you can beat it. I don't think it would look great clear finished for the cabinet interiors but only because it is obviously rotary cut pine.

I would not use MDF under any circumstances for cabinets in my house. I hate working with it, it sags way to easily, swells if it gets a tiny amount of water on it, etc. I made cabinets for the basement of my last house out of melamine. They were durable but I would much rather work with plywood. You have to remove the melamine to get a good glue joint and it is noticably heavier than plywood. But it is hugely preferable to MDF for me.

I used HD Radiatta Pine ply and 1X's for some shop cabs and I agree with you. It is nice stuff especially at the price point. A little fuzzy when routing and sanding, but nothing that does not clean up.

[Jon Grider]

Did you read my post? the veneer on the last stuff I bought from HD was 0.01" thick (think two sheets of typewriter paper). When a water-borne finish was applied to it it buckled and split over the voids, some of which measured up to 3" in diameter. You would have to be blind not to see them.

I just mic'ed the last batch I bought about 6 days ago and it had a face ply thickness of .023 on the best side. There are voids but the Columbia brand maple and birch I used last had very manageable voids and accepted finish fine without telegraphing through the finish. Maybe I just got lucky on the times I've used HD ply, but for the cost, and until it produces unacceptable results, I will continue to save $$ by using it. Perhaps different parts of the country get different offerings at their respective HD.

[Tom M King]

Several years ago, the quality of plywood in Lowes, and Home Depot was noticeably better than it has been lately.

Richmond is where I go, when I need something better than I can find in the box stores. There are all sorts of cool suppliers in the area to the East of the Science Museum, near the ball park. It's an hour, and a half away though, so I get by, as good as I can, from Lowes, and Home Depot. It's about to the point that it would be worth the extra hour, one way, drive.

[Jim Becker]

Julie, it really depends upon your local home center store and what they get in and how they store it. Mine doesn't have any sheet stock that I would normally consider for woodworking projects and they don't take very good care of inventory. My local independent lumber yard does store things well, but other than BB, most of the veneer product is import with very thin top layers. For the same or less money, Industrial Plywood, one of several "real" sheet goods suppliers in this geography has really good quality, North American produced product...and they deliver for free with a $300 order. No commercial status required.

[Tom M King]

Here's a picture of some that came from Lowes, 6 to 8 years ago. It's for a box in the Puppy Room. Varnished with no prep, other than sanding between coats. That was the last of the good Birch plywood from box stores.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Hey Bruce I'm in Richmond VA. So are there different types of melamine? The way I've always seen it is hard plastic like material that looks super cheap. Am I thinking of the wrong thing here? I was hoping for the matte painted look.


Next time you are in doctor's office, look at the melamine used on their cabinets. BORG's stuff isn't in the same league. Remember the BORGs buy the cheapest there is to increase their margin. Back in the eighties, worked in Richmond for a few months. People would kid me saying, " NC taught the three "R's." Reading, writing, and the road to Richmond." I would reply, we taught those three, plus the most important one The road back to Raleigh!

[Bruce Wrenn]

Only problem I have had with Radiatta is it will mold in a heart beat in higher humidity. Used a lot of it for substrate under laminate.

[Alan Gage]

I also like the idea of building the carcasses with melamine. That's what I did when I built my kitchen about 8 years ago. Cheap and flat and worked great.

I wouldn't want it exposed on the exterior of the cabinets but for the interiors (which you said won't be very visible because of drawers) it looks fine to me and cleans easily if needed.

On my kitchen everything visible from the exterior was alder. I simply used panels to cover any sections of exposed carcass like the ends and an empty area between cabinets for seating. Looked great and the only time you could see what the carcasses were actually made of was when you opened the door under the sink. Everything else was drawers. I figure to 99.9% of the people a white cabinet interior is a white cabinet interior when you're talking base cabinets. No one on their knees rummaging around for what they need is going to notice.

I also used 1/4" white melamine for my drawer bottom because it's tough and easy to clean. I used baltic birch for the rest of the drawer.

Something to think about anyway. Building a couple end panels is quick, cheap, and easy compared to buying high quality ply and then painting it. And with end panels you can dress it up a little with a frame and panel rather than the flat slab of a cabinet side.

I'm currently doing a kitchen in my new (to me) house and made the carcasses from a mish-mash of 3/4" ply and MDF that I was sick and tired of moving around so none of them even match. But again it's all drawers so you can't really see in there anyway. All anyone will see from the outside walnut. I didn't even apply a finish to them except for the inside of the sink base and trash cabinet. One for water resistance and the other to aid in cleanup if necessary.

Here you can see mine before it was finished with one end panel installed but another missing. And the inside of one cabinet with no drawer installed.

https://live.staticflickr.com/1944/30499107257_dfc27437bb_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Nt6U1R)20120513_007 (https://flic.kr/p/Nt6U1R) by Alan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/7935459@N05/), on Flickr

Alan

[scott vroom]

For paint grade cabinet boxes, I use 3/4 C-2 maple ply. It costs $65-70 in my area but is well worth it...I get a hard, dent resistant surface with virtually zero grain telegraphing...it really paints nicely.

[Joe Chritz]

Amazingly enough my local Menards has very high grade US built plywood. It has consistent cores and thick face veneers. The best I have used outside of real baltic birch ply.

My understanding is not every box store has the same suppliers but it is certainly worth looking around.

That said I really like melamine for cabinet boxes. It is a pain to work with but makes a nice clean box and is strong "enough".

Joe

[Jim Becker]

Menards is "different" than most other big mass market home centers as they also do a serious business with contractors and others that demand the "good stuff". Most of us, unfortunately, do not have a Menards within many, many hundreds of miles. :(