vintage Craftsman table saw upgrade

[Mark Mrsa]

I am a new member to the community. I retired 2 years ago after major back surgery and have renewed my interest in woodworking. It began with woodturning, evolved into creating a garage workshop to use a lathe, and has recently expanded to making boxes for jigs so that I can practice and develop my joinery skill. I inherited a 1960's era Craftsman 10" contractor's table saw and radial arm saw which I have brought both back to life. Restored would be an overstatement.
I use the table saw almost everyday I'm in the workshop. I've made minor upgrades to the table saw, installing a new paddle on/off switch, replacing the V belt with a link belt, making a scarifical fence for the original aluminum fence, installed microjig splitters on zero clearnace inserts, and purchased an Incra V120 miter guage with extension and flip stopper.
The table saw still has a lot of vibration when cutting (to date 70% crosscut and 30% ripping) and the aluminum fence system does not maintain a parallel position to the miter slot without measuring the distance at the front and back of the blade. I've cleaned the cabinet as best I can. I would need physical assistance to remove the table from the cabinet to adjust the trununs if required.
I plan on upgradeing the fence system with a Shop Fox system (w1410) which would require drilling holes into the table sides to mount the fence brackets.
My questions for response are several:
1.) Even though I've spent alot of hours bringing the table saw back to life, if I pursue making more refined boxes, would it be necessary to consider purchasing a new table saw?
2.) Does anyone have specific recommendations to reduce table vibration?
3.) Is there another aftermarket fence system which could be attached to this age table saw for more precise cutting?
Mark Mrsa

[Lee Schierer]

What is the model number of your saw?
I have a Craftsman 113 model saw with the cast iron open grate wings. I have tuned my saw, added a Beismeyer fence and a Kreg crosscut guide. I also replaced the original belt and both pulleys. I have very little vibration. I routinely switch between full kerf 60 tooth crosscut and 24 tooth rip Freud blades with no issues.

You can visit my profile and view a number of the projects I've made with my saw.

[Lisa Starr]

Welcome Mark,

I actually just purchased a 113 for a second table saw in my shop a couple months ago. My intent for it is a dedicated saw for making box joints, primarily for drawer boxes. Before anything else, align the miter slots to the blade. You don't need to remove the tables, but a set of PALS or something similar you make yourself will make the job much less frustrating. As for vibration, I'd suspect the motor pulley being out of alignment with the pulley on the arbor. If that's not the problem start looking for a bent arbor, bad bearings or something similar.

[Zachary Hoyt]

If your saw is direct drive or flex drive I would think twice before putting a lot of money into it, my experience with old Craftsman table saws is that the motors get weak and burn out pretty easily, at least on the 3 I had back in the day. With a belt drive it would be easier to replace with a generic motor if that should become necessary.

[Mark Mrsa]

Lee,
Thanks for responding to my posting! This is just what I was hoping for.
The Craftsman table saw is model number 113.29410 and I think it was manufactured between 1960 and 1965.
I have the original pulleys. The problem is the one attached to the motor arbor keeps losing and moving toward the end of the shaft. A tech rep from the Highland Woodworker recommended to roughen the side of the V belt as the smooth surface may be the root of the problem. I did so and the pulley attached to the motor arbor losened again. Since putting on the link belt this problem has not reoccured, but the new belt did not noticeably reduce the vibration. Where did you purchase the pulleys? eBay? Craftsman partswebsite? Haven't researched this part to determine if it is available through a website like McMaster-Carr.
It considered the Beismeyer fence system, but didn't think it would interface with the model Craftsman table I own. Did you have any problems drilling through the cast iron table sides? Threaded holes or over size holes?
I'm upgrading my blades from the Kromedge blades to Frued and DeWalt. I have 2 cross cut blades. Just purchased a Frued combination blade.
Did you remove the table from the cabinet and detach the truniuns ?
I'll visit your profile to see what you've produced. I haven't encountered many woodworkers with a vintage Craftsman to share experiences.

[Mark Mrsa]

Lisa,
Thanks for the advice. It's nice to know there are people who are using vintage machines. I've done some basic alignment of the blade (vertical and horizontal to the table surface) using a metal square. I have a Starrett dial indicator and am searching for a miter slot accessory to assess the blade being parallel to the miter slot. Woodpecker has an interesting design for $70.00. What is a PALS?
As to the pulley alignment, that's one problem I think I've solved. I haven't looked the arbor for the blade. There is no wobble when the blade is spinning and the arbor in the motor appears straight. The motor still works fine, but am considering a "tune up" so to speak.

[Lee Schierer]

Lee,
Thanks for responding to my posting! This is just what I was hoping for.
The Craftsman table saw is model number 113.29410 and I think it was manufactured between 1960 and 1965.
I have the original pulleys. The problem is the one attached to the motor arbor keeps losing and moving toward the end of the shaft. A tech rep from the Highland Woodworker recommended to roughen the side of the V belt as the smooth surface may be the root of the problem. I did so and the pulley attached to the motor arbor losened again. Since putting on the link belt this problem has not reoccured, but the new belt did not noticeably reduce the vibration. Where did you purchase the pulleys? eBay? Craftsman partswebsite? Haven't researched this part to determine if it is available through a website like McMaster-Carr.
It considered the Beismeyer fence system, but didn't think it would interface with the model Craftsman table I own. Did you have any problems drilling through the cast iron table sides? Threaded holes or over size holes?
I'm upgrading my blades from the Kromedge blades to Frued and DeWalt. I have 2 cross cut blades. Just purchased a Frued combination blade.
Did you remove the table from the cabinet and detach the truniuns ?
I'll visit your profile to see what you've produced. I haven't encountered many woodworkers with a vintage Craftsman to share experiences.

My saw is a 113.298720. I would definitely recommend changing the pulleys. It has been too many years to recall where I got mine. What you want are machined pulleys of the same diameter and hole size as the ones on your saw. If there is room, they sometimes use two set screws stacked in the hole to prevent loosening. Or you can use the Blue Loctite. One source for machined steel pulleys for table saws is In Line Industries (https://www.in-lineindustries.com/products/pulleys-belts/), which may be where I got mine. They have kits and sell individual pulleys as well. Mine are 5/8" bore and 2-1/2" diameter for both.

As I recall I had to drill one hole through the cast iron for my fence. I drilled a pilot hole then stepped up to the bolt size I needed. Mine are all through holes, no threads.

For alignment, I reach through the opening into the back and loosened the bolts holding the trunnions to the underside of the table. I probably spent several hours getting down on the floor, then getting up, then down on the floor, etc making the adjustments. If I were doing it now I would first buy the PALS for my saw, also available from In Line Industries. They save a lot of time. For about $20 you can get a dial indicator from Harbor Freight that will do a good job measuring your alignments when mounted on a block of wood clamped to your miter gauge.

[glenn bradley]

The model 113.29410 shows up as a radial arm saw. Is this correct?

[Rob Sack]

I have a similar Craftsman that my Dad brought home used in the mid sixties and taught me how to use it. Although my main saw is a Sawstop ICS, I got the old Craftsman when my Dad passed away. It still works great. I now use it for making drawers. I modified it by switching to cast iron pulleys, replaced the belt, and upgraded the motor. I also replaced the rip fence with the Delta T-Square fence, which is actually the original Biesemeyer home shop fence. (Delta bought Biesemeyer). Replacing the fence was straight forward. It bolted right on without having to drill any holes. I would suggest a good quality motor of at least 1 1/2 hp and run it if all possible on 220.

[Bradley Gray]

Sounds like a lot of good advice so far. I would add paying the $6 a year to post and see pictures and other benefits on this forum as a saw upgrade. Good luck with your saw, I have a shop full of old machines.

[Mark Mrsa]

Glenn, I had the wrong number. Correct model number is 113.29901.

[Leo Butler]

What is a PALS?
PALS = "Precision Alignment and Locking System". Sold by Peachtree Woodworking, among others. Search for "table saw pals" on Google or Amazon and you'll find them quickly.

They mount to the rear trunnion and allow you to micro-adjust its position, and hold that position while tightening the mounting bolts.

[Mark Mrsa]

Thanks Leo. I've found it on Amazon. I have to check for parallelism of the blade to the miter slot first. I gotten a lot of good advice on this first posting.

[Michael J Evans]

There is a company that sells complete kits to upgrade these says, I believe their name is "inline industries". They sell the pulleys, pals, and the jigs to hold the dial indicator.

[Tom Henderson2]

There is a company that sells complete kits to upgrade these says, I believe their name is "inline industries". They sell the pulleys, pals, and the jigs to hold the dial indicator.

inline makes good products but many have had bad luck ordering from them directly. so order from Peachtree or others if possible...

[Michael J Evans]

Good to know. I've never ordered from them. Only know about them because I have a 113 saw and looked up upgrades once.

[Thomas McCurnin]

Any contractors saw, the ones with the motor at the back on pulleys, will suffer from misalignment and will require constant adjustment. While the PALs bolts will make things easier, sadly they will not make the alignment issues less frequent. Its the nature of the beast, e.g., the contractor's saw, exacerbated by the age of the saw.

[glenn bradley]

Glenn, I had the wrong number. Correct model number is 113.29901.

This thread (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?287527-113-27520-Revived&highlight) may help. Besides Grandpa's a950 Emerson I had a 1970's "113." contractor. I added a decent fence, PALs, machined pulleys and a link belt. I also wrapped a 90# bag of Redi-crete in plastic and tossed it in the base for ballast.
453091
(BTW, I don't know why the miter gauge is positioned like that. It was just a photo. Never use your gauge like that.)

I could get the blade very well aligned at 90 degrees but, as with nearly all contractor format saws, bevel cuts were a challenge. I made a lot of nice stuff on that saw. As I branched out in what I was making, the limitations became more troublesome. I could do operations that the tablesaw was challenged with by using the router table and hand tools. As will happen, a good deal came along on another saw. I upgraded to a hybrid that came with a commercial Biesemeyer fence, cabinet mounted trunnions, etc., and was able to get wonderful, burn-free bevel cuts at any angle I desired. Fortune stepped in again and I upgraded to a 240 volt, 3HP, cabinet saw . . . sort of the entry level for an actual cabinet saw. Had this not happened I would probably still be using the hybrid. As a matter of fact, I am using it right now while I am between shops.

The 1950's saw I still have is a big step up from the 1970's saw in mass and build quality. I plan to use it as a crosscut station as mentioned in the "revival" thread linked above. You will have to judge if your 1960's machine is a keeper or a stepping stone. This decision can sometimes take years. If you can't make that decision right now I would continue to improve your saw, get some use out of it for a while with the free service of gaining experience as to what will and will not work for you going forward. Consider any upgrades now as a price of admission to the learning game. I am not implying you are inexperienced. I am saying that you may need some hours on your current saw to make up your mind whether it is a keeper or a step toward something else. Enjoy.

[Rick Potter]

Google Inline industries, they make PALS, and the Dubby saw sled. They have a lot of videos, including one that shows him restoring a Craftsman saw that starts out in bad shape.

I am sure you can find it on you tube also, but he is THE guy. If you decide to redo it, he sells the PALS, steel pulleys, and a link belt that really smoothed my Dads saw vibrations.

[Lee Schierer]

Any contractors saw, the ones with the motor at the back on pulleys, will suffer from misalignment and will require constant adjustment. While the PALs bolts will make things easier, sadly they will not make the alignment issues less frequent. Its the nature of the beast, e.g., the contractor's saw, exacerbated by the age of the saw.

I've had my 113 saw for over 30 years and I did the alignment about 5 years after I got it. I checked it a couple of years ago and it had moved maybe 0.002 according to my dial indicator. I rarely do bevel cuts so maybe doing a lot of blade tilting is the issue. Raising the blade up and down doesn't seem to bother it.

[Will Boulware]

I've had my 113 saw for over 30 years and I did the alignment about 5 years after I got it. I checked it a couple of years ago and it had moved maybe 0.002 according to my dial indicator. I rarely do bevel cuts so maybe doing a lot of blade tilting is the issue. Raising the blade up and down doesn't seem to bother it.

I can second this. I had one for over a decade and outside of bevel cutting (which I did very little of), it was a solid machine. I did the typical link belt/machined pulleys/Vega fence upgrades and that saw was VERY accurate. I sold it to a friend who needed a good saw, but I told him I had first right of refusal if he ever decides to sell it. It was a really good machine, and I'm hoping he gets Sawstop fever at some point, because I'd like to have it back. :)

[Mark Mrsa]

Thanks Michael for the referral!

[Mark Mrsa]

Thanks Tom for the advice!

[Mark Mrsa]

Tom, I've come to realize this. My table saw requires constant care which I don't mind giving since I brought it back to life, in addition to a same age radial arm saw, and several hand planes which I inherited from my father. I'm a bit proud for having done so. It has been a good learning experience. The growing question now is how much more money do I want to put into the table saw, even given my emotional attachment. To upgrade the motor and fence system would cost another $500.00 as compared to purchasing a new mid-range table saw. Your thoughts wold be appreciated.
Mark

[Mark Mrsa]

Lee, thanks for the advice! your suggestions will be useful to tune-up the table saw further to obtain more precise cuts. The cost of a new motor and upgraded fence system (Shop Fox or Delta/Biesemeyer) would be another $500.00 investment. Being an owner of a vintage table saw, would you consider such an investment worthwhile versus a new table saw purchase ($1000 to $1500)? Your thoughts.
Mark

[Mark Mrsa]

Thanks Will. I'mgetting the impression that the Craftsman table saw's life can be extended depending on cost, intensity of use, and needed precision.

[Lee Schierer]

Lee, thanks for the advice! your suggestions will be useful to tune-up the table saw further to obtain more precise cuts. The cost of a new motor and upgraded fence system (Shop Fox or Delta/Biesemeyer) would be another $500.00 investment. Being an owner of a vintage table saw, would you consider such an investment worthwhile versus a new table saw purchase ($1000 to $1500)? Your thoughts.
Mark

I still have the original motor on mine. About once a year I pull the little plastic caps over the bearings and add a few drops of oil. My motor is 1 Hp and I find it adequate for all the cutting I do. My saw will walk right through 3/4" hickory, maple or oak. I have crosscut and ripped 6/4 walnut, soft maple and red oak with no issues. I've also crosscut and ripped 2 by construction lumber including treated. Unless your motor s failing why replace it? For a little more than $750 you can buy a Rigid 4520 with a 1-1/2 Hp motor, cast iron top, riving knife, extension tables and a pretty decent fence. However the miter slots if a keyed type. At my age, I will stick with what I have as my woodworking is declining in quantity, not increasing. If I were 40's and serious about woodworking and had the money, I would probably buy a Saw Stop. My TS was paid for on the first project I built. The Beismeyer fence was paid for on the first project I made with it.

I also have a Craftsman Radial arm saw, one of the better ones with a good guard, that rarely gets used since I got my table saw.

[Mark Mrsa]

Lee,
Your recommendations and descriptions of what you have cut on your Craftsman table have been very useful. Aside from my emotional attachment to my table saw, which isn't extreme, I'm 70 years old and I expect to be able to safely engage in workworking for 10 year just for my own interest and pleasure, no production demands. I go back and forth about this issue of further upgrade or buy new, especially if I become more involved in box construction where more precise cutting is required let alone to the wood stock squared (I don't own a jointer and it has been recommended to me one is necessary if I would like to pursue more precise, refined box construction). Not know alot about the quality of brands, in regard to a Rigid, I don't know if I would face similiar problems with aligment and a lack of satistication with component parts (i.e., the fence system). I know Saw Stop is top quality, but at $1500, that's a significant lay out of money.
I'd like to get your thoughts about the radial arm saw. I had to disassemble the armiture to relube it so I could change the angle of cut from 90 to 45 degrees L/R. I cut out a new cutting table out of 1" MDF board, but haven't finished squaring the table surface to the cutting blade. I've seen pictures of a variety of workshop made cutting surfaces, each having kerf cuts at 90 and 45 degrees L/R. I don't clearly understand the reason. I think it has somethimg to do with the height of the table surface relative to the depth of the blade cut, but am unsure. Is it necessary to make these kerf cuts? Also is the fence scarifical, as I've seen some have similiar kerf cuts.
Your thoughts would be approeciated.
Mark

[Lee Schierer]

I'm 71, don't tell anyone...The problem with Craftsman radial arm saws (and most others) is accuracy and repeatablity. The reason you see cuts at angles in the tables is that for cleaner cuts you need to bury the teeth a little bit into the wood table. The same is true for rip cuts. The stops for angles aren't precise. Swinging from left to right to make a picture frame will be a frustrating experience. Height adjustment isn't smooth going down. The saw throws sawdust everywhere. You get a lot of blade noise with some blades. The size of the table and length of the arm limit your cuts to their range. Sectioning a sheet of plywood on a RAS is not easy due to the work height and limited range from the fence. Some of the saws have very poor blade guards, hence the recall by Sears. Mine has the improved blade guard, but it is a pain whenever you want to change blades. Oh, yes, I almost forgot you should use negative hook angle blades on a RAS to reduce the self feeding.

Yes you need to replace the fence periodically as well as the table.

A table saw is a far better tool for nearly all cuts.

[Lisa Starr]

If you don't mind spending some time building the rails, look at the VSCT (very super cool tools) fence. You would be able to utilize the existing mounting holes in the saw and it makes a very nice, accurate fence when you're finished. They have videos available that cover the rail fabrications etc.

[Curt Harms]

I don't think anyone has suggested this - and it's free. Remove the belt from the motor and turn the motor on. If there's still vibration it's either the motor or pulley. If no vibration, put the belt back on, remove the blade nut and washer. Turn it on. If no vibration it's the blade nut or washer. It there' still vibration it's probably bearings or arbor. Some of the pulleys on contractors saws aren't the best quality and can be out of balance. I had to replace a pulley on a drill press and ordered a machined cast iron pulley from Amazon. Replacing the stepped cast pulley with a single sheave machined pulley made a HUGE difference in the level of vibration. I was replacing the original 5 step pulley with a 3 phase motor and VFD so still (continuous) variable speed.

[Mark Mrsa]

Lee, again thanks for your experienced advice! I plan on using the RAS for cross cuts predominately and possibly angled cuts.
Mark

[Mark Mrsa]

Lisa, Thanksfor the recommendation. To confirm, with this brand of fence system there is no need to make additional holes into the table sides of the Craftsman 10" contractors table saw model no. 113?
Mark

[Mark Mrsa]

Curt, thanks for the advice. Please explain further about the pulleys you've updated. What is a single sheave pulley? I found a tool site, in-line Industries that sells after market pulleys, along with
amazon. I want to make sure I buy the appropriate replacements. I also don't know what a 5 step pully is?
I have the original motor and will upgrade if the bearings are deteriorating? What is a VFD? I didn't realize there are variable speed motors for table saws.
Your feedback would be appreciated.
Mark

[Lisa Starr]

Mark, with the VSCT fence you build your own rails and they can mount wherever the old fence mounted.