YASST - Yet another table saw/sawstop thread

[Aaron Liebling]

Apologies in advance for another table saw question.

We're renovating our house which includes enlarging my workshop. This means it will finally fit something larger than my trusty old dewalt contractor saw. It will also involve a kitchen remodel with me making all the cabinets. For sheet goods, I typically use a track saw for general breakdown then final cutting on the table saw as needed. I'm a hobbyist and do most of my work hybrid - breaking down stock with power tools and shape/finish with hand tools. Other than the kitchen, typical work is one off furniture out of hardwood and sometimes sheet goods (midcentury furniture).

My plan for the saw replacement is:

sawstop professional 36" 3HP - for my purposes 1.75HP is probably fine, but I'm planning on adding 240 anyway.
ICS base - for ease of movement in my still small shop
folding outfeed table

Any other options/additions I should consider?

Questions/options:

router table:I'd like to mount my router on the right end of the table (sawstop table, router lift and box) and ditch my small bosch router table
Dust collection: what's the practical difference between the two dust collection systems? I know the floating dust collection guard is not compatible with the router table on the right. I think this is the biggest question mark for me.
Also, until now, I've pretty much never used a riving knife or table top dust collection, instead using sleds and splitters on zero clearance inserts. Given this, I'm open to optimal dust collection/safety options.
I already have an icra 1000se and express. I'd be happy to keep using them unless there's another better option. How would these play with various dust collection mechanisms?


All feedback appreciated!

[glenn bradley]

First, second and third of all; dust collection, dust collection, dust collection.

What you are talking about sounds fine and so much of the small detail is personal preference. I like a longer rip capability even though I rarely work with sheet goods; others don't. I like the router table on the left so my jigs and so forth can be used on both functions with a common feed direction and clearance concerns; others don't. I find making my tablesaw one of the anchor points in the shop allows me to align it more precisely and keep those adjustments; we can't all dedicate the space.

I'm not sure what the price difference is between the 1.75 and 3HP saws. My 1.75HP hybrid did everything I asked of it but WOW, does the power, smoothness and confidence of a 3HP platform sure feel good. If that feeling is $1000 you may want to spend that money on something else. If the difference is $500, it could be the difference between a 'next step' saw and the saw you will use from here on out.

[ChrisA Edwards]

I bought the 1.75HP 110V 36" Sawstop and the ICS mobile base. I used to roll it out for use and put it away when the wife came home, so she could park in the garage.

I made a folding out feed table for this purpose.

This worked well and when I moved, my saw found a permanent location, so although it sits on the ICS mobile base, it doesn't go anywhere.

I did upgrade my Sawstop to 220v 3HP which I'm very pleased with.

I have a standalone router table and also a router in the right end of my Sawstop. For convenience, the standalone router table gets used the most.

I like to use a cross cut sled, so although I have the Sawstop Riving Knife Dust Guard collector, the cheaper version, I haven't used it in 4 years.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Aaron, in the cost bracket you're looking at I wouldn't buy a cabinet saw, I would buy a short stroke Hammer or MiniMax sliding tablesaw.

- scoring saw for chip free cuts on sheet goods

- ability to crosscut a sheet of plywood

- greater depth of cut

- more capacity and versatility

- good overhead and under blade dust collection

- ability to straight line rough lumber

- space saving

You could never convince me to go back to a cabinet saw..........Regards, Rod.

[Aaron Liebling]

Rod, when you say "space saving", I was under the impression that even small sliders require more footprint than a cabinet saw. My new workshop is still on the small side. Also aside from one kitchen coming up, I don't really do much sheet work, which I thought of as the main strength of the slider.

[ChrisA Edwards]

Although, I gave you my info about my Sawstop purchase and experience, if I was buying again, and had the 240V, I most likely would buy a slider if my budget and space allowed.

[Charles Coolidge]

If the Sawstop safety feature is not a must have I'd consider this BEAST https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-12-5-hp-220v-extreme-series-table-saw/g0696x I owned one of these about 6 years ago and just ordered another this weekend. Fit and finish is very good. Quality made a Powermatic PM2000 I had look like a joke. Note the much larger table size and additional inches in front of the blade. The table is also thicker than the PM2000 and Sawstop. It's a 12 inch so it will cut 4 inch thick stock and has a beefy 1 inch arbor.

[David Jurincie]

I just picked up a 3 horse 36" PCS with the industrial base last week. It is the first saw I have purchased, my original 1987 Craftsman was a wedding gift from my parents. I talked to several people about the integrated router table and ended up purchasing a Jessem ULTIMATE EXCEL II PACKAGE which is on backorder for a few months. The majority told me to go with a dedicated table unless I was limited on space. I will say that over a period of about a month while I was finalizing my choices, our local Sawstop vendors went from usually having four or five in stock to none in stock. Fortunately they found one in stock at another of their stores that they had shipped.

[Andrew More]

I've got the 3 HP SawStop PCS with the ICS mobile base, and built in Router Table. I went with the 52" rails, since I had the room, and previous experience taught me that longer rails were a very nice thing to have with the addition of a router table. This is mainly because you need a bit of space between the table saw portion and the router table to push things into to get them out of the way. For example I often have the router table fence on the middle portion when I need it out of the way. However this is just a nice to have, not a requirement.

For dust collection I've had both a DIY floating collector and the built in collector on the guard. The guard is the better of the two options, particularly when paired with a dedicated shop vac with HEPA filters. The floating arm guard works decently, but you'll need a DC with a 6" duct to properly feed both it and the 4" port in the cabinet of the saw. Even with this, I found the guard collected slightly more material.

While it's true the piping for the guard or the floating arm potentially gets in the way of the router table, my suggestion is to diy the piping for the guard or floating arm collector, which will avoid these issues.

452832452833

[Mike Rambour]

I have the 3HP SS and think its a great saw, compares very well to my Unisaw that I purchased new in 1979 and used until I replaced it with the SS last year, the Unisaw had 52" fence and I needed to downsize now that making sawdust is not longer my business.
On the Unisaw, I had mounted a router on the table and it worked very well but it always seemed in the way. Rarely could I cut something and rout it, it always seemed the board was too long so I had to lower the router bit down, cut and re-raise the bit, sometimes I got lucky and could do it. My point is I think a router buit into the table saw is a great idea but not a very functional one, I went back to a separate router table and I really wish I had not let go of my shaper.

[Aaron Liebling]

I'll have to do the layout to figure out if I can keep the standalone router table.

I am interested in learning more about minimum usable square footage for a slider. It's either that or a sawstop.

Thanks for the great dust collection info, Andrew. i use a dedicated shop vac so will look at the overarm (I don't have 6" ducts).

[Eric Anderson]

One caution. If you get the Sawstop outfeed table (which I have and really like in my small garage shop), I have read it won't work in the full down position with the ICS mobile base, meaning you must keep it fully extended all the time. I don't have the ICS base but the PCS base and it works great with that base. I'm sure the ICS base is much superior, but I have not had issues with the PCS base, you just got to jocky it a little more.

[Rod Sheridan]

Rod, when you say "space saving", I was under the impression that even small sliders require more footprint than a cabinet saw. My new workshop is still on the small side. Also aside from one kitchen coming up, I don't really do much sheet work, which I thought of as the main strength of the slider.

Hi Aaron, my small slider is a bit smaller than my cabinet saw and doesn't need outfeed support.

Here are a couple of drawings. Note that mine is a bit deeper than just a saw as it has a shaper as well.

I normally don't have the outrigger on, it takes a couple of minutes to put on, no tools required......Rod.452835452836452837452838

[Jim Dwight]

I'm sorry but the notion that a slider takes up the same space as a conventional table saw is nonsense. You need the length of the slider in front of the saw and the length of the slider after the saw. This is dedicated space, nothing else can go there or you cannot use the saw. I need nothing in front of my PCS and behind it is my outfeed table which is also my assembly table and also my track saw cutting station. It has to do all these things because my shop is 14x24. I do not use infeed support on my PCS because I cut up large pieces, solid or sheet, on my track saw. My outfeed support does other things that need done and there is no other space to do.

IF your setup has single use infeed and outfeed support on the conventional saw, then and only then is the space required comparable. But that is not my case and I suspect it is also not the case for many others.

I am not down on sliders, I just don't think they will work for me or others with small shops. I use a conventional table saw with a big sliding table built in some when I volunteer at church and I like the sliding attachment. I know this is not the European slider concept since the slider is a foot or so from the blade but it is still handy. It's better for crosscuts than any sled. But I cannot give up 8 feet by 3 feet of space or more for only my table saw. I need multi use space as much as possible or I cannot get things done.

[David Kumm]

A short stroke slider doesn't need much extra room because the slider length is 48" or less. My normal saws are either 40 or 44" deep. No real difference there. I have several old sliders with a 40-44" sliding table and a stroke of 36-39". Those machines will handle 90% of most cabinet cuts on the crosscut and rip just like a traditional saw. If you use a track saw for the full panel cuts, there is no downside to a short stroke slider but crosscutting a 24x36" panel is much easier. When you go to an 80" slider, you lose space it becomes a machine that is either too short or too long. I have sliders from 18"-120" and the 40" and 120" are by far the favorites. My 80" is a great Knapp but is the last one I choose. Dave

[Aaron Liebling]

Given the layout of my workshop (basement longer than wide), a slider could actually work nicely if the total distance wasn't that much more than the cabinet saw.

36" PCS listed dimensions: 69 1/8" x 33" - What are realistic usable dimensions? The downside for the cabinet saw is that realistically it needs its width for the table, but you also need outfeed space if you're ripping (which can be shared with something else). Again, due to the layout, the slider might actually fit better (takes up less of my precious width).

What's a nice "short stroke slider" that's a reasonable comparison with realistic usable dimensions?

[ChrisA Edwards]

Hammer K3, for sale in the classifieds, but you are on opposite sides of the country.

[David Publicover]

I was always under the impression that a Hammer K3 was quite a bit more expensive than the SawStop PCS. Am I incorrect in that assumption?

[ChrisA Edwards]

No you are correct, but the one in the classifieds is very nice for the price and barely used.

P.S. I have no connection to the seller, other than that saw is calling my name and I currently have a very nice Sawstop setup.

[Aaron Liebling]

Has anyone mounted the folding outfeed table on the PCS with the ICS base? I've seen mostly reviews saying it cannot fold all the way down, but one comment said it could by mounting it slightly further from the saw. Personal experience?

[ChrisA Edwards]

The SS folding table most likely hits the 4" dust extraction port on the back of the machine as it folds down.

I made a folding table for my PCS, before Sawstop offered their option. I doubled up 3/4" plywood and connected it to the rear rail with a heavy duty piano hinge.

My sawstop, put away, on the ICS base with the table folded down.
You can just make out the fold down table under the saw and on the back edge of the table.



https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/i452/cedwards874/Woodworking/.highres/DSC_9804_zpsvwj9f2xy.jpg

[David Publicover]

No you are correct, but the one in the classifieds is very nice for the price and barely used.

P.S. I have no connection to the seller, other than that saw is calling my name and I currently have a very nice Sawstop setup.

Thanks for clearing that up for me Chris. I often see advice to buy the K3 rather than a SawStop but rarely see the price difference mentioned. The K3 listed here does seem like a good deal for someone.
I also made an outfeed table for my SawStop. Mine has a narrow ledge before the hinge break so that when folded it clears the DC connection but has a pretty useful length when in use. I’m in a single car garage so finding spare inches is always a goal.
Best regards,
David

[Doug Dawson]

The SS folding table most likely hits the 4" dust extraction port on the back of the machine as it folds down.
Exactly. The folding table doesn’t go completely vertical, due to the port, but it’s almost there, and it’s not a big deal. (The ICS mobile base has little to do with that.)

[Aaron Liebling]

I would totally grab that K3 if it wasn't on the other side of the country from me! If anyone is getting rid of a mint one in California for a reasonable, I'm all over it!

[Paul F Franklin]

Exactly. The folding table doesn’t go completely vertical, due to the port, but it’s almost there, and it’s not a big deal. (The ICS mobile base has little to do with that.)

I've thought about moving the dust port to the right side of the saw (which would involve boring a 4+ inch hole through the side of the cabinet). I don't know why SS doesn't put a hole on the side and let you choose side or back for the port. There's nothing in the way and it would be trivial. But as Doug said, it folds almost all the way down so it doesn't bother me enough to make the modification. Although since in my case it would eliminate one 90 in the duct it would probably improve dust collection a tad.

[Aaron Liebling]

What about the minimax sc2? Pricier than the sawstop ics, but not insanely so