First Dovetail Saw

[Mike Burke]

I am wanting to buy my first dovetail saw. Looking at the Lie Nielsen saw. Not sure about the straight blade or tapered one. I see there is a blade thickness difference. This is my first DT saw not my first hand saw.
Asking for suggestions on either the straight blade or Tapered blade ?
Thanks for any suggestions / insights

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I have never used one. Christopher Schwarz is a fan, however:

https://blog.lostartpress.com/2014/01/20/the-advantages-of-saws-with-tapered-or-canted-blades/

I am a little bit concerned that one of the stated reasons for wanting one is so that you do NOT cut below the line because the front is narrower than the back so when the back hits the line, the front has not (assuming you hold the saw straight). That also means that you either need to:



Tilt the saw if you want to cut to the line front and back, so then you have learned to cut differently than your non-canted saws.
Chisel clean up. You are going to do that anyway, so not sure it matters.


Since I have never used one and then I would have only one saw that was different, I would get the non-tapered blade.

That said, I think that either would work just fine for you. The Lie Nielsen saw is nice. I like mine. I also like my Veritas saw from Lee Valley. Saw is not as nice (not a wood handle and I think that the saw plate is a wee bit thicker, think I read that somewhere, I have not noticed a difference in use), but it works just fine.

[David Bassett]

... I also like my Veritas saw from Lee Valley. Saw is not as nice (not a wood handle and I think that the saw plate is a wee bit thicker, think I read that somewhere, ....

Huh? The Veritas Dovetail saws have a "hardwood handle", torrified maple IIRC (they don't say on the Dovetail saw page.) The saw plate is 0.020", same as the L-N non-tapered saw. (The L-N tapered version is 0.015" per their webpage.) Where the Veritas backsaws are unconventional is the composite back. They are a molded composite, which certainly looks a little "space age" when compared to the more traditional L-N brass backs.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Huh? The Veritas Dovetail saws have a "hardwood handle", torrified maple IIRC (they don't say on the Dovetail saw page.) The saw plate is 0.020", same as the L-N non-tapered saw. (The L-N tapered version is 0.015" per their webpage.) Where the Veritas backsaws are unconventional is the composite back. They are a molded composite, which certainly looks a little "space age" when compared to the more traditional L-N brass backs.

Guess when I look at it I see the odd molded composite stuff not the wood handle part sticking out of it.

[Blake M Williams]

Veritas was my first one. Not as pretty as a brass back but I was very happy with it anyway. Now that I have used a brass back one, I prefer the added weight. Just feels better personally.

[Phil Gaudio]

Both excellent saws. The thin plate would be my preference. However, depending on your level a sawing ability, the .020 plate might be a better option. If you are confident that you can handle a DT saw like holding a baby bird: get the .015. If you are more ham-fisted: get the .020.



I am wanting to buy my first dovetail saw. Looking at the Lie Nielsen saw. Not sure about the straight blade or tapered one. I see there is a blade thickness difference. This is my first DT saw not my first hand saw.
Asking for suggestions on either the straight blade or Tapered blade ?
Thanks for any suggestions / insights

[Curt Putnam]

Note that the LN handles are thin. If you have large hands you may well have trouble controlling the saw. OTOH, the LB totes would enforce a light grip which is desirable. It is really nice if you can get a tote sized for your hand.

[Mike Henderson]

I have used both the straight blade and the tapered blade LN saws. I didn't see a lot of difference between them. Either will work fine for you.

They're good saws. I prefer the LN dovetail saw to the LV dovetail saw.

Mike

[Mike Burke]

Thanks for all the replies and suggestions. I like the brass back traditional look. The straight blade would probably suit me better at this point. LN suggested the .020 blade also. Slowly getting my dovetailing tools assembled.
Thanks.

[Warren Mickley]

Most dovetail saws from the handtool era have a tapered plate and have a good clearance between the handle and the tooth line. Many makers today do not have much experience with actually using a saw.

The toe of the saw is the most susceptible to flexing. It is helpful to have the back close to the teeth. You need enough room there to cut to the dovetail depth and some extra to account for sharpening loss over the years.

The heel is less vulnerable because the handle is fastened on the plate, helping stiffen. And the handle reduces the clearance on the plate, so having a greater plate depth keeps the handle away from the tooth line. This is why historic saws are tapered.

On historic saws the handle is also angled up more for the smaller saws. You really don't want the handle down below the tooth line as some makers do today. We sometimes use a dovetail saw for sawing small work on a bench hook or sawing board; there needs to be clearance between the saw line and the handle or the handle will hit the sawing board. The tapered plate also helps to angle the handle away from the tooth line. And because you might sharpen the saw a number of times, you don't want the handle too low.

Buying a good saw at the outset might seem like a good idea, but buying a gents saw for a lot less money enables you to get started and gain knowledge before committing a larger sum. A rip filed gents saw is adequate for professional work.

[Derek Cohen]

I am wanting to buy my first dovetail saw. Looking at the Lie Nielsen saw. Not sure about the straight blade or tapered one. I see there is a blade thickness difference. This is my first DT saw not my first hand saw.
Asking for suggestions on either the straight blade or Tapered blade ?
Thanks for any suggestions / insights

Hi Mike

The LN was the first new dovetail saw I purchased, about 20 years ago. I really like this saw, and it is one of my go-to dovetail saws today. However, when I first got it, it was difficult to start a cut, and caused some frustration. The issue here was the zero rake - just too aggressive for me at that stage. I returned to a vintage saw, which cut more easily. The LN went onto a shelf for a few years.

I understand now about the zero rake, but not then. Today I see the LN as a really excellent dovetail saw, but not ideal for those starting out sawing dovetails. It is akin to learning to drive in a F1 racing car. It is a high performance saw, and will be grabby when starting the cut as a beginner does not have the light hand and touch to float the saw. This is recognised by makers, such as Rob Cosman, who builds into his saws smaller teeth at the toe of the plate.

There is a better saw for those starting out: the Veritas (both 14- and 20 tpi) saws have a relaxed 14 degree rake. They cut slower, but are so much easier to use. Of these choices, I’d go for the 14 tpi.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Bassett]

OK, I suppose I'm a Fan-Boy, but I like the Veritas saws. While I hate "cheap" tools, I probably overly appreciate "value" tools. These saws really hit the mark with my prejudices. (I acknowledge the spine appearance is a deal breaker for some, different metrics. It's OK.)


... They cut slower, but ....

They do, but that shouldn't be read as saying they cut slow.

A little over a year ago I splurged and attended a handtool class with Chris Gochnour at FWW's Hands-On. I didn't take a careful count but about half the dovetail saws in the class were Veritas. When used confidently we were maybe taking an extra stroke per dovetail cut. (What's really slow is nibbling away with short tentative strokes.)

Derek has a lot of dovetail saw information on his website. It's worth seeking it out. (It's his fault I aspire to a Gramercy dovetail saw. It'd basically be unusable to me today, but someday... I hope I'll have the skills.)

[Phil Gaudio]

Hi Mike

The LN was the first new dovetail saw I purchased, about 20 years ago. I really like this saw, and it is one of my go-to dovetail saws today. However, when I first got it, it was difficult to start a cut, and caused some frustration. The issue here was the zero rake - just too aggressive for me at that stage. I returned to a vintage saw, which cut more easily. The LN went onto a shelf for a few years.

I understand now about the zero rake, but not then. Today I see the LN as a really excellent dovetail saw, but not ideal for those starting out sawing dovetails. It is akin to learning to drive in a F1 racing car. It is a high performance saw, and will be grabby when starting the cut as a beginner does not have the light hand and touch to float the saw. This is recognised by makers, such as Rob Cosman, who builds into his saws smaller teeth at the toe of the plate.

There is a better saw for those starting out: the Veritas (both 14- and 20 tpi) saws have a relaxed 14 degree rake. They cut slower, but are so much easier to use. Of these choices, I’d go for the 14 tpi.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek: I believe the LN currently incorporates 8° of rake (was in touch today with LN on their DT saw). Phil

[Charles Guest]

Get a 10" gent's saw for $30. There's no significant time savings to be had, in the overall process of dovetail joinery, by using an aggressively filed saw. Most time is lost faffing with layout and waste removal. The entire depth of a gent's saw from toe to heel is useable for the entire life of the saw, as long as enough plate is left to go to the depth you need. The handle is never in the way as the saw is filed down.

[Prashun Patel]

I have had the LN for a couple years and prefer it to the Veritas (both of which I own). The LN is aggressive, but this is IMHO a huge benefit. You have to learn to start the cut, but that's IMHO an easy skill to master. The aggressiveness of the LN allows the saw to do the work without much pressure at all. This results in straighter (and btw faster) cuts than with the Veritas ones. YMMV.

I really want to try the tapered version.

[Nathan Johnson]

I've had both the LV and LN.
I like the LN better and sold the LV. It's a minimal learning curve.

[Jason Martin Winnipeg]

I used the Lee Valley dovetail saw for a few years. It's a really great saw for the price. The only complaint I had with it was the composite back was quite thick and when I was looking straight down the length of the saw while making a cut it would cover the cut line. I really like the handles on the LV dovetail and carcass saws though, and they are probably my favourite shape of any saw I've used.

I now own a set of Gramercy saws.

[steven c newman]

Lest we forget....there are other saws out there, besides just the LNs and LVs....
Mine..
452618
Rather the main 3 I use....2 are Disstons..
452619
A No. 68 and a No. 4....I use each size according to the size of the work being done...have been known to set up Mr. Bishop's No. 10 saw..
452621
Can choose which teeth I want to use, and even preset the depth of cut....it hangs out with the rest of the Ready Use Saws..
452622
Old School work, needs Old School saws....

[Michael Bulatowicz]

Derek: I believe the LN currently incorporates 8° of rake (was in touch today with LN on their DT saw). Phil

Whatever the factory rake on the saw, it is easily changed over the course of a few sharpenings, assuming one is willing to sharpen it oneself.

I have owned the Veritas dovetail saw for 5 years or so; it was my first dovetail saw and is a great value. I learned to sharpen it properly at approximately the factory rake first, but gradually found that I wanted a more aggressive rake. I currently have it close to zero rake. It's a great saw that won't hold you back, particularly if you're willing to adjust it to match your preferences.

That said, after a the first few months or so. I began to see the value in the handle clearance Warren describes. He's also correct about the relative vulnerability of the toe and the protective qualities of the tapered (canted) blade.

Another point is that there's a relationship between depth and ideal thickness of the plate; the ratio between the two is what's important here. Too thin for the depth and the saw is going to be more likely to try to follow the grain in softwood or to get (temporarily, while in the cut) distorted if the kerf gets warped due to internal stress in the wood. This leads to a saw cut that is curved rather than straight across. This can be offset by keeping the saw very sharp, but as a beginner it can be difficult to judge when it's time to sharpen.

There can be advantages to purchasing an inexpensive gent’s saw to start if it helps you work up the nerve to practice sharpening. I, however, find the handle style uncomfortable to use for more than a few quick cuts. I much prefer a handle that places my wrist in a neutral position (the Veritas dovetail saw being one example). YMMV

[Derek Cohen]

When starting out, I believe that a dovetail saw with relaxed rake (around 14 degrees) will be forgiving and encouraging. As one learns to hold the saw - how much tension in the grip, learning to relax, to use one's body more naturally - then a faster cutting saw becomes more desirable. The sweet spot for me is between 5 -8 degrees.

I have found that one size does not fit all in my world. Sawing Jarrah is different from sawing Tasmanian Oak, and different from Hard Maple, Black Walnut, etc. Even changing angles when sawing the pin board one will find that one angle is harder to start the cut than the opposing angle.

The amount of set can dramatically change the characteristics of a saw. Too little and you may bind enough to make the cut an effort. A little extra set suddenly frees the plate and it then feels light and nimble.

If you are anything like me when I started out, the thought of keeping teeth sharp was the furthest thing on my mind. I suspect that many use saws with teeth which are dull. You do not need to do a full re-sharpening; just touching up the teeth will keep it going effortlessly for a few more projects.

Favourite dovetail saws (excluding renovated vintage saws and saws I have made): 3/4" hardwood drawer fronts and cases - LN standard, Independence Tools (the saw that started the resurgence), and Gramercy.
1/4" thick drawer sides (generally Tasmanian Oak or similar) - Wenzloff & Sons 20 tpi, Veritas 20 tpi

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Derek mention many things that affect how the saw works. If you order a bad axe saw, you are asked what you intend to saw and the saw is sharpened and set appropriately.

[lowell holmes]

I have never bought a Veritas tool and regretted it.
Rob Lee has a history of backing up his tools.

[Thomas Wilson]

Your original question was about straight versus taper and whether it would affect the accuracy of hitting the baseline on the cut. I had the same question but bought the Lie-Nielsen saw anyway. In practice, I saw down close to the baseline on the front, check the cut on the backside, and adjust however necessary to hit the baseline on both sides. The taper does not affect accuracy that I can tell. Theoretically, the taper reduces the flex and vibration in the saw plate. It also shifts the weight balance closer to the hand. In reality, it is a small effect because the depth of a dovetail saw is not very great anyway.

[steven c newman]

Perhaps one should go and ask Roy Underhill about the dovetail saw he is always using?

That No. 4 saw I have, takes 8 full strokes to travel 3/4" down into the wood. I bought 14" of saw, I tend to use all of it. Don't need to sit there, doing little nibble cuts, just start the cut, and then finish it...usually have plenty more cuts to do. Usually, it is NEVER about who made the saw....it is all about how someone is using the saw.....Bad cut? Don't blame the saw, blame the operator of the saw.

Un-sure about why everyone wants such tiny teeth.....on a saw that is basically just a RIP saw.....Unless they want to sit there all day long, making one cut....24 ppi? Why? Sales Hype?

452701
Then..
452702
Then..
452703
Don't forget the other half...
452704
And hope they go together...
452705
And..
452706
YMMV

[Derek Cohen]

Steven, some like to buy new saws ... about the same feeling you get when browsing swap meets.

Buying a new saw is a good place to start if you have no way to compare it to something you could either build or restore. I have done all of these and I must admit that using an old saw is a buzz. So I belong to both camps.

I was using this saw today. Picked it up at a wood show two or three years ago, a Nurse (circa 1900) with great potential. However, one needed to believe this at the time.

I don't have a photo of the complete saw, but the parts (only thought to take photos after it was dissembled) ...

https://i.postimg.cc/4dqWwCGt/5-unrestored1-zpsew1vtzfq.jpg

Here, one can see that the brass back had come away from the plate. The back was twisted and curved in two directions.

https://i.postimg.cc/QdQJ59Vp/6-unrestored2-zpsb2ljubug.jpg

The handle was beautiful. A little on the small .. compact ... side, and the bump was too pronounced for my comfort.

The plate was cleaned, the brass back straightened, both reassembled, the teeth filed off and completely redone at 15 tpi (5 degrees rake), and the handle refinished after the bump was lowered.

https://i.postimg.cc/R095QHd9/6a-zpspinvxpgl.jpg

I used this saw today to cut the through dovetails in 10mm Tasmanian Oak for drawer backs ...

https://i.postimg.cc/dtC9001F/Saw1.jpg

Great saw. But you can only buy one with experience, not money.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Pete Taran]

Steven,

No need to ask, see attached or view any of his shows from the late 90s.

Regards,

Pete

452846



Perhaps one should go and ask Roy Underhill about the dovetail saw he is always using?

[Stephen Rosenthal]

452622
Old School work, needs Old School saws....

Steven,

Derek touched on a theme similar to what my comment will be.

My first dovetail saw was a brand new Adria. When I purchased it I had no idea about rake, set, fleam, taper, number of teeth, etc. Nor did I have the requisite skill to sharpen it. I bought it because I liked its size (8”) and how it felt in my hand. It was not the easiest saw to start the cut, but that was likely due to my inexperience cutting dovetails rather than the saw’s fault. Now that I know what I’m doing it’s a lovely saw that makes quick work of dovetails in most woods.

I have since acquired an old Disston (12”), which was dead straight but needed sharpening. Had this been my first dovetail saw, I would have quickly grown frustrated and probably purchased a Leigh jig. Now that it’s tuned up, it’s a wonderful saw but I still reach for the Adria more often than not.

Bottom line, not everyone has your skill set or desire to scrounge for hidden gems in need of a major rehab. Nor are many people aware of the coterie of skilled saw smiths that can turn a junker into a jewel. That was me at one time. For them, buying a quality new saw is the right path.

[Jim Koepke]

Having used both old and new saws both are usable. Now it all depends on what is being cut that determines the saw.

For most dovetail work my thin plate saws at 14 & 15 ppi are usually preferred.

If cutting in 2X construction lumber one of my saws with a thicker plate is chosen.

The operator controls the saw. The tooth geometry, tooth count and other elements up of the saw make handling the saw easier for the operator to make accurate cuts.

A higher tooth count tends to leave a smoother cut with less chip out.


That No. 4 saw I have, takes 8 full strokes to travel 3/4" down into the wood. I bought 14" of saw, I tend to use all of it.

That's going to make me go out and count strokes tomorrow. My brain is saying a 10" saw with 15 ppi can make that cut in 5 or 6 strokes.

But it is late and my eyes are trying to close.

jtk

[Rob Luter]

I started out with a batch of antique backsaws. Fine saws from yesteryear that I purchased and refurbished. Some were tapered but most were straight. Once resharpened they worked well for general joinery, but the plates were thick and the sets were generous and the cuts were less than precise for dovetails. I bought a LN Dovetail saw and it was night and day. In the end I sold all my antiques and bought a LN Carcass Saw and Tenon Saw with the proceeds. Less clutter now and I can perform all required cuts very precisely. No regrets at all.

BTW - Mine are straight versus tapered.

[Mike Brady]

I have both of Lie-Nielsen's dovetails saws (the straight plate saw is older), and I prefer the .015 plate to the thicker, heavier .020 one. Honestly, I don't think the taper makes a big difference, but it may prevent over-cutting the back side of the board. The thinner plate obviously is going to to leave a smaller kerf, which I prefer, but you should anticipate using a fret saw to remove waste rather than a thicker-bladed coping saw that can hang up in the tighter kerf. I have used several of the Lee Valley saws and they are a good value, but have none of the aesthetic appeal of a traditional saw. I also found them to be harder to start in the cut. At the price charged for LN 's dovetail saws they are a true bargain considering that the next tier of saws from other makers like Bad Axe are around hundred dollars more expensive. The bad news is that Lie-Nielsen saws have been sporadically available due to the limitations required in manufacturing in the Covid era. As I post this, they have some saws available.