No more denatured alcohol in California?

[Mike Allen1010]

My go to finish is shellac. I prefer to make my own fresh by dissolving flakes in denatured alcohol. Went to the hardware store to buy some more denatured alcohol for fresh batch of shellac and was very dismayed to learn that apparently there is some kind of regulation that now prevents the sale of denatured alcohol in California. I don't know all the details, but I checked Lowe's, Home Depot, Sherwin-Williams and Dunn Edwards paints and even REI camping store. No joy!

I have no idea what the rationale is this regulation, and frankly doesn't matter. I'm screwed. Any suggestions for some alternative solvent or how I might be able to get denatured alcohol? Do you think I could buy it online and have it shipped in? I went to the Bev Mo – they have Everclear that is "120 proof, 40% alcohol", do you think that would work?

I very much appreciate any and all suggestions!

All the best, Mike

[Mel Fulks]

It will not work . Way too much water.

[William Fretwell]

It is used as a clean burning fuel in some stoves, especially in outdoor burners and on boats, I have one. Check marine stores and fuel suppliers. It would indeed be strange if they are telling people you can no longer cook on your stove!

[Jim Matthews]

It will work just fine.
https://www.finewoodworking.com/2019/08/28/shellac-solvent-grain-alcohol-vs-denatured-alcohol

[Mike Soaper]

Might depend upon which Everclear is used, seems it's bottled at 60%, 75.5%, 94.5% and 95% alcohol by volume (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_by_volume) (120, 151, 189, and 190 U.S. proof (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._proof) respectively)

[Jim Reffner]

I've used 190 proof Everclear. Excellent results, definetly a cleaner shellac with noticeable fastrer dry times. Problem was the price -20 bucks a fifth, could be cheaper in other states.

gotta tell you Mike- really enjoy your build threads.

[Andrew Hughes]

Mike look in your area for a professional paint store.
The one out near me still carry’s the good stuff even in 5 gal cans.

[Jebediah Eckert]

I use 190 proof Everclear as well with good results. Maybe you can find that in a higher proof?

[David Bassett]

It will work just fine.
https://www.finewoodworking.com/2019/08/28/shellac-solvent-grain-alcohol-vs-denatured-alcohol

Nope. Not the California liquor store stuff. Not a clean air reg, but public health / prop up the wine industry reg, limits the max proof for drinking to 151 (75%) alcohol. (BTW- Mike the 120 proof 40% stuff you were told about just isn't right. 100 proof is 50% alcohol, the conversion factor is 2. "Pure" alcohol absorbs water from the air and is limited to 191 proof, ~95%, without being heroic and is what you really want.)

I'm told Behlem / Mohawk Shellac Reducer is allowed and available and is a good version of what used to be label denatured alcohol. Best stuff is probably 190 proof grain alcohol, rumor is you can get it in Arizona, if you're up for a little boot-legging, and there have been a couple reports of successfully mail ordering it. It's also been reported that alcohol fuel, as used in table top fire pits, can be had with bitterants (sp?) instead of methanol, and will work well. (Sorry, I haven't tried any of these. I've just noted them for "someday".)

[William Fretwell]

Yes Jim it will. In Canada 94% alcohol is carried by the government liquor stores, not on the shelf but in the back room. Only pharmacies are able to purchase it with a requisition, the price is right up there with the cheapest vodka.

[Mike Henderson]

California banned denatured alcohol - at least for sale in small quantities such as one gallon cans. It's supposed to be because of air quality concerns.

Have you tried ordering it from out of state? I see it for sale on Amazon. Not cheap, but not as expensive as 190 proof Ethanol.

Mike

[Here's one on Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07XSD6F1Z/?coliid=I1A8L6ZUAQRTC4&colid=2M1XMQFRF5982&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it). I haven't tried to order it so maybe they won't ship to CA.]

[Here's another (https://www.amazon.com/Emerson-Ethyl-Alcohol-2-32oz-Bottles/dp/B08G5CRY4P/ref=sr_1_5?crid=S32EWSGPCEF3&dchild=1&keywords=ethanol+alcohol&qid=1613614339&s=industrial&sprefix=ethanol+%2Cindustrial%2C236&sr=1-5). Only a half gallon, however.]

[Tom Bain]

Road trip to Tijuana!? :D

[Ben Ellenberger]

I bought some at a West Marine within the last couple of months. It is still sold as stove fuel. The last time I checked my local REI was out, but I bet you can still find it at some camping stores.

I’ve never tried isopropyl alcohol, but that is available at 99% from Amazon.

Of course, I’d only do that as a hobbyist. If you do that as a business, your local air district may not be happy.

[Mel Fulks]

Might depend upon which Everclear is used, seems it's bottled at 60%, 75.5%, 94.5% and 95% alcohol by volume (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_by_volume) (120, 151, 189, and 190 U.S. proof (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._proof) respectively)

the 95 % works well . But just leaving the top off for a an hour or two on a humid day will ruin it. The lower proof only desolves.....
hopes....and dreams.

[Curt Putnam]

I just went through this last year. Denatured is mostly gone and then not over 70% alcohol. Can't even buy Everclear at a useful proof. There appears to be no other solvent.

My crystal ball sees a trip to AZ or NV in your future.

[Mike Wilkins]

Not sure how close you are to a neighboring state, but a road trip may be in order. Some woodworking suppliers will not ship certain products to the wonderful state of California, so shipping is out of the question.

[David Bassett]

Not sure how close you are to a neighboring state, but a road trip may be in order. Some woodworking suppliers will not ship certain products to the wonderful state of California, so shipping is out of the question.

Unfortunately California isn't a small place. We look long and skinny, but I'm 4-6 hours from Nevada in the skinny direction. (Long direction is probably 16+ hours end-to-end on the Interstate. For Mike I was thinking Arizona, but I'm not sure about direct routes & border cities. I'd forgotten about Tijuana, but I suspect the border checks are much tighter in that direction.

PS- I was collecting notes intending to solve this, but it got so complicated I just grabbed another can of Seal Coat & decanted it into mason jars (so it won't rot through the can and mess my work table again.)

[Bill Bukovec]

In Tennessee, we just make our own!😉

[Mel Fulks]

Well, when you get the stuff, put the top on the bottle and the mixed shellac. Even if you just get a phone call. Many years ago I
bought a bottle of the highest proof Everclear to dissolve shellac flakes . Had a room mate who drank a lot of beer, but if he ran out he would
drink what was available. After I went to bed he opened my new bottle . When I woke up I saw he had left the top off. Mixed up a batch
of flakes and alcohol...flakes did not dissolve. Things are bad when you have to drink the spoiled alcohol ....while flakes get the good stuff.

[John K Jordan]

You can buy PGA (Pure Grain Alcohol) for laboratory use, 99.97% proof ethanol, as pure as it gets. A place where I worked bought PGA in pint bottles for cleaning lenses and mirrors and such.
I found this: https://shopbvv.com/products/bvv-lab-grade-ethanol-200-proof-1-gallon?variant=18316640059507&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Google%20Shopping&gclid=CjwKCAiAmrOBBhA0EiwArn3mfBhpg82rMfglQpra0XOy PGNtSU1LoB8-gGAAhj0aloHx9BLO7-fjmRoC7U0QAvD_BwE
I have no idea if they ship to California.

I buy 95% ethanol from a liquor store when I make vanilla extract. I had to ask for it. Not exactly cheap. It might be Everclear too but I'd have to check. (I have 1500ml of extract in progress now. :))

I read that you can use isopropyl alcohol with shellac but I never tried it. Before it became scarce because of the pandemic I bought 99.9% IPA at our local farmers coop for just over $20/gal. A couple of months ago I bought several gallons from Amazon (in quart bottles), these: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08DDCGPVJ and https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B078C8JYVV

As for the regulation banning denatured, I'd take a guess it might be because of changes by manufacturers of DNA in the last few years. I understand it used to be they used ethanol with a bitterant added but a few years ago a look at an updated MSDS for what I used to get at Home Depot indicated it could now contain a large percentage of methanol, bad stuff. I assume they are doing this to reduce costs and get richer.

JKJ


My go to finish is shellac. I prefer to make my own fresh by dissolving flakes in denatured alcohol. Went to the hardware store to buy some more denatured alcohol for fresh batch of shellac and was very dismayed to learn that apparently there is some kind of regulation that now prevents the sale of denatured alcohol in California. I don't know all the details, but I checked Lowe's, Home Depot, Sherwin-Williams and Dunn Edwards paints and even REI camping store. No joy!

I have no idea what the rationale is this regulation, and frankly doesn't matter. I'm screwed. Any suggestions for some alternative solvent or how I might be able to get denatured alcohol? Do you think I could buy it online and have it shipped in? I went to the Bev Mo – they have Everclear that is "120 proof, 40% alcohol", do you think that would work?

I very much appreciate any and all suggestions!

All the best, Mike

[David Bassett]

Ah ha! I remembered enough I could find it. Allan Speers was on a quest for non-toxic alcohol. He found GRAVES GRAIN ALCOHOL (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?241838-Inexpensive-home-still-for-making-ethanol&p=2541507#post2541507) for much less than Everclear and less than double the Bekhol stuff. It won't be available retail in CA, but he could get it shipped to NY, so maybe....

Good luck & let us know. Thanks!

[Mel Fulks]

What I heard is that it has to be poisonous now ...Uncle Sam says bitter and nasty tasting ain’t enough. Guys who will drink Sterno juice
filtered through their socks and underwear are not real picky about brands! And they know that if they get sick their lawyer will say “ My
clients did not know denatured meant poisonous.... they thought that meant “made inside a factory” ....not outdoors”.

[Mel Fulks]

I think the stuff with bitterent was for lab use . Denatured means poisonous. The law requires it to be poisonous, that’s the only way they
way it can be legally sold without the high tax.

[David Publicover]

I just went through a similar search last week. After some searching, I bought a product designed for liquid fuel fireplaces. It is 92% ethanol and 8% isopropyl according to the website. The brand I bought was e-nrg. I got mine at Canadian Tire for any Canucks who are wondering. It had no particular odour and the shellac dissolved reasonably quickly and dried to a hard finish that sanded to a white powder. I had planned to use methyl hydrate which is cheaper and widely available in Canada but some research indicated it had some rather serious health hazards.

[Tom Bain]

It appears that e-NRG fuel (for indoor fireplaces) is manufactured in Culver City, so that would lead one to believe it would be available in Cali.

[Charles Guest]

https://culinarysolvent.com/collections/200-proof-food-grade-ethanol

[Thomas L Carpenter]

Way back in the good old days we would buy 95% ethanol for lab use but a federal liqueur license was required. The government being, well, the government I can't imagine those kind of restrictions get loosened over the years only tighter. Maybe it was the volume we purchased. Around 100 gallons in 5 gallon containers.

[David Bassett]

https://culinarysolvent.com/collections/200-proof-food-grade-ethanol

Interesting. Here's a page on their site more specific to the question here:

Denatured Alcohol vs Nondenatured Ethanol (https://culinarysolvent.com/pages/denatured-alcohol-vs-nondenatured-ethanol)

It has several sections specific to the CA laws.

(Also this stuff is so expensive because it includes the Federal Excise Tax on booze, but after reading the health effects of Methanol poisoning it might be worth it.)

[David Bassett]

https://culinarysolvent.com/collections/200-proof-food-grade-ethanol

Maybe more interesting, at least for big users, is their 190 proof in 5 gal cans:

190 Proof Food Grade Ethanol (https://culinarysolvent.com/collections/190-proof-ethanol)

At 95% Ethanol (5% water) it's much cheaper per gallon than the 200 proof at the first link and I understand as soon as you expose 200 proof to air it absorbs water down to 190 proof anyway.

[Leo Butler]

I'm also in CA and learned about the law change a few months ago. Just about out so I placed an order for a gallon of DNA from Amazon, looks to be appropriate for shellac, and no indication they won't ship it to me yet: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07XSLD2XF

[Mike Henderson]

I'm also in CA and learned about the law change a few months ago. Just about out so I placed an order for a gallon of DNA from Amazon, looks to be appropriate for shellac, and no indication they won't ship it to me yet: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07XSLD2XF

Let us know if you get it and if it works okay for your. I will need to order some alcohol soon.

Mike

[steven c newman]

Of course, IF you happen to know a Farmer with a corn crib or two.....see if he still has a jug in the underside....sitting under all that corn....

Not called "Corn Squizzens" for nothing....

[Tom Henderson2]

The good news is that you can still buy shellac reducer in California

The bad news is it is very expensive ($18/qt).

Fortunately I don’t use much so a quart lasts a long time...

https://www.woodcraft.com/products/shellac-reducer-qt-mohawk?gclid=Cj0KCQiAvbiBBhD-ARIsAGM48bzrbSYVvBaUNo0jfYEsbQyfs5PMoEh7-BGQoVKFTLb0Mmmi9zrVfqkaAqlnEALw_wcB

https://www.rockler.com/mohawk-shellac-reducer-quart?country=US&sid=V91040&promo=shopping&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=&utm_content=&utm_campaign=PL&gclid=Cj0KCQiAvbiBBhD-ARIsAGM48bzEEosDtT-DTfOl2E-2HYlInBmyd-mrB7HdfJGa954MpOczaRzrm7QaAuMnEALw_wcB

[Don Parker]

The Behlin product sold as shellac reducer is a very good quality product, as denatured alcohol goes. However, if you get the chance to buy 190 proof Everclear while visiting a state that sells it, I can highly recommend using that instead of any denatured alcohol. It is just a joy to work with as a shellac solvent. No bad smell, no headaches, no poisoning concern. I can’t buy it here in West Virginia, but they sell it in neighboring Kentucky, where I have family and often visit. I only use denatured alcohol now if it comes in something already made up for me.

[Joe Tilson]

Has anyone thought to try moonshine, it comes in 190 mile an hour form, if you get it from a good maker.

[David Silverson]

Canadian Tire carries methyl hydrate 99% for about $6 for 947 ml. I've used it and it works fine for shellac.

[Joe Wood]

I'm in Cali and used to use DA for cleaning up fresh uncured polyurethane glue. What else can I use?

[Richard Baxter]

This might work but haven't tried it with shellac, pretty pricey though
https://www.amazon.com/Extractohol-Organic-Certified-Proof-Cane-extra/dp/B01APQLE3A

[Anuj Prateek]

I just went through a similar search last week. After some searching, I bought a product designed for liquid fuel fireplaces. It is 92% ethanol and 8% isopropyl according to the website. The brand I bought was e-nrg. I got mine at Canadian Tire for any Canucks who are wondering. It had no particular odour and the shellac dissolved reasonably quickly and dried to a hard finish that sanded to a white powder. I had planned to use methyl hydrate which is cheaper and widely available in Canada but some research indicated it had some rather serious health hazards.

This is good to know. Noted the brand.

Bunch of months back I ran into same problem. Methyl alcohol is easy to find but I am always worried about it's fumes.

Back then I ended up buying from ardec.ca. They carry denatured alcohol (and shellac) though a bit costly.

You can also get ethyl alcohol from lab suppliers. Few big names come in Google search but they cost 4x so never ordered personally.

[David Publicover]

Hi Anuj,
I’m not familiar with Ardec. Thanks for the link; I’ll check them out. I have used methyl hydrate in the past and it worked fine but I have since read about some of the potential health hazards and decided to find an alternative. I find that I’ve become much more aware of safety issues over the years and am trying to minimize needless exposure to nasty stuff when I can. I’m more comfortable with and used to the effects of ethanol...
The e-nrg product I used was several times more expensive than methyl hydrate but I expect it will last me for years. It seemed to work very well.
Best regards,
David

[Mike Allen1010]

Thanks everyone for all the helpful suggestions!

On the suggestion of highly esteemed, California Central Coast barrister Patrick M., I went to: shellacfinishes.biz, which is based here in San Diego, and was able to get a gallon of 200 proof denatured alcohol for $54 along with what are purported to be a "fresh from India" super blonde shellac flakes. They also offered a proprietary product "Royal Lac" which appears to combine the aesthetic benefits of shellac with the durability of synthetic finishes like polyurethane. I'll let you know how it works once it arrives.

Thanks Patrick – as always your advice was right on the money! Next time you're in town, remind me to tell the story of how as result of a misguided fraternity "prank" when I was in college I once appropriately spent the night in the Santa Barbara County Jail with 6 of my pledge brothers charged with "Grand Theft Pumpkin".:eek! As I recall, I knew it was a colossally bad idea at the time but didn't say anything and the punishment of many days shoveling horse sh*t in the farmers stables was well-deserved.

Powerful object lesson in the importance of not going along with something you know is wrong, just because "everyone else is doing it". BTW, my own Boys immediately rolled their eyes at the mention of this story because they heard it so many times growing up.

Cheers, Mike

[Curt Putnam]

Wish I had known about that outfit last year. Have them bookmarked now.

[Vince Shriver]

I also ran in to the ban on alcohol. However, I recently purchased some a can labeled "Clean Burning Fuel" which was also labeled denatured alcohol. It might available. It was referred to simply as "Fuel'.

[Mike Allen1010]

Fellow Creeker Patrick M. suggested shellac finishes.biz. Was able to buy gallon of 190 proof denatured alcohol for ~50$ I posted full description yesterday but don’t see the post now. I’ll let you know how it works when it arrives.

[Don Parker]

Royal Lac is awesome stuff, and the owner, Vijay, is very helpful.

[Ron Kanter]

I bought a gallon of 190 proof denatured alcohol from Alliance Chemical - alliancechemical.comEthyl Alcohol Denatured 190 Proof - One Gallon - in (4) 32 FL Oz Bottles. $36 and free shipping
Ordered first thing in the morning. Received notice of shipping via UPS two hours later.
I like the smaller bottles since I don't expect to use a gallon for quite a while.
Best deal I could find anywhere and so far the service has been outsanding.

[John Dougherty]

You can get Mohawk Finishes "Shellac Reducer" which says on the can that it is a denatured alcohol "blend". The SDS states that the "reducer" is a blend of ethanol, butanol, and propanol. I picked up a quart at Woodcraft in Rancho Cordova yesterday.

[Mel Fulks]

You can get Mohawk Finishes "Shellac Reducer" which says on the can that it is a denatured alcohol "blend". The SDS states that the "reducer" is a blend of ethanol, butanol, and propanol. I picked up a quart at Woodcraft in Rancho Cordova yesterday.

John,thanks. I tried a “reducer “ ,long time ago, It would not dissolve the flakes. But I’m not saying that none of them will work. I do
think that “reducer” might just mean “thinner”. Don’t know why there would be two types,but it’s possible that some places just allow sale
if the reducer.

[Tom Henderson2]

John,thanks. I tried a “reducer “ ,long time ago, It would not dissolve the flakes. But I’m not saying that none of them will work. I do
think that “reducer” might just mean “thinner”. Don’t know why there would be two types,but it’s possible that some places just allow sale
if the reducer.

Mohawk shellac reducer is ethanol — denatured alcohol.

it is *exactly* what you want to make shellac from flakes.

it is readily available in California in stores or order online and have it shipped.

[Charles Guest]

Mohawk shellac reducer is ethanol — denatured alcohol.

it is *exactly* what you want to make shellac from flakes.

it is readily available in California in stores or order online and have it shipped.

Yep, here's the MSDS for the product:

https://mohawk-finishing.com/mhk_cds/product_msds/M650-0056.pdf

[Jeff Ramsey]

You should use Everclear 190. And you should abandon using denatured alcohol even if you can find it; it’s far too variable in content.

[Curt Putnam]

You should use Everclear 190. And you should abandon using denatured alcohol even if you can find it; it’s far too variable in content.
Everclear 190 is not available in CA

[David Bassett]

Everclear 190 is not available in CA

And, I'm told, some other states.

For me, this is more a health & safety of denaturants in cheap DNA than a what the retailers did in response to a new Air Resources Board rule issue. The various pure Ethanol solutions, the various mixes of stove fuel and other DNA, and so on are very interesting to me.

This:


You can get Mohawk Finishes "Shellac Reducer" which says on the can that it is a denatured alcohol "blend". The SDS states that the "reducer" is a blend of ethanol, butanol, and propanol. I picked up a quart at Woodcraft in Rancho Cordova yesterday.

is too since it doesn't have Methanol, (what my parents & grandparents call wood alcohol,) and doesn't have excise tax is especially interesting. And this:


... I went to: shellacfinishes.biz, which is based here in San Diego, and was able to get a gallon of 200 proof denatured alcohol for $54 ....

since, despite the excise tax (I assume), it isn't that expensive and is pure Ethanol.

I need to do some experimentation

[David Dalzell]

I had the same problem. I ordered denatured alcohol from Amazon, to ship to California and had no problem. I use it for mixing with shellac flakes. This was about 6 months ago.

[Brice Rogers]

When I went to eBay, I saw Denatured Alcohol "FUEL". It is readily available. Somewhat expensive - - about $30 a gallon. If you buy a 5 gallon drum, it is a bit less expensive. You can also buy reagent grade ethanol but it too is pricey.

I too live in Ca. You might consider a road trip to Yuma Az. or Phoenix. Or TJ to get some 190 proof everclear.

Another alternative might be to buy pure isopropyl alcohol. It is also pricey.

Try googling "salting alcohol to purify". Apparently the water in the alcohol will dissolve the salt and you'll end up with two layers of liquid. The top is purer alcohol and the bottom is salt water.

[Jack Frederick]

I’ll be vaccinated and ready to make a run to Reno probably by the end of March. If you can find what you are looking for over there I will pick it up. I’m in Nevada City and once vac, will be traveling to Petaluma. No timetable set, so let me know if I can help out.

[Eric Heinz]

I bought Mohawk Shellac Reducer at TH&H (The Hardwood & Hardware Store) in San Diego last summer. I think that they are related to Austin Hardwoods in Orange County.
I see that shellac.net in Napa also carries Mohawk Shellac Reducer. As someone said above, Mohawk Shellac Reducer is almost pure ethanol. I have heard that isopropyl alcohol works well and is readily available.
I spent some time last summer researching the regulations set by the California Air Resources Board. As I recall, CARB says that ethanol degrades the atmosphere in some areas, near chemical plants and, I think, bakeries and breweries. Therefore they require people who emit ethanol to document how they will limit emissions. I wish that the regulations made some allowance for people who mix their own shellac.

[John Serna]

Shellac is also my go to finish. I use Everclear to handmix small batches, from flakes, as needed. It produces great results.

I actually prefer it to d.alcohol because it's more natural.

[Mike Allen1010]

Based on a great tip from Patrick M. I was able to access 200 proof denatured alcohol from a local Internet supplier here in San Diego. I tried to post a couple times to share the info but haven't been successful – not sure why. Am I not allowed to post a link or email address? shellacfinishes

Nevermind my bad. Saw my previous post was carried.

[Leo Butler]

Let us know if you get it and if it works okay for your. I will need to order some alcohol soon.
Mike, it arrived. Says it's 190 proof, haven't opened a bottle of it yet tho to confirm it's not just water. ;)

It did come as four quart bottles instead of a single gallon, but that's fine by me.

[bill godber]

I use ethanol fireplace fuel for my shellac flakes. I buy it as "bio fuel" and it's meant for indoor decorative fire places.it works well.