Delta & Grizzly Got Me Into Big Trouble.

[Dev Emch]

Today I got a post regarding advice on the purchase of a DJ-20. It appears that one SMC member took my advice months ago and ordered up a DJ-20 from Delta sold through Amazon. He also purchased a base for this jointer. Fair Enough.

But now it appears that both Grizzly and Delta are seriously backordered on the respective versions of the DJ-20. Amazon is now posting shipping dates as far out as March. Who knows when Grizzly will deliver.

So the question is this. Should I wait, cancel the amazon(DJ-20) order, order up a Grizzly version or do something else?

I have nothing to do with these respective companies and do not get paid to steer folks one way or the other. Rather, my views are based on objective perfection.

So how are guys like me supposed to answer folks who are looking for objective and accurate information not polluted by greed or marketing focus? Companies like Delta and Grizzly have been very tight lipped about the current status of their machines in terms of who is designing them, who is building them and what kind of quality processes are used to ship them. Never before have guys like me been forced to work from a position of pure spectulation which quite frankly makes me very weary. I no longer know the concrete facts of what I am dealing with. This is no way to run a woodworking company. What's the old adage... If something sounds to good to be true, is most likely is not!

So in the absence of pure knowledge, I have to wonder if the most prudent solution is not to drop back to the last known position of certainty. That would mean going to say Wilke, Ashman Technical(in canada) or The Woodsmith store in Iowa for pure, made in canada general machines. I have dealt personally with both Ashman Tech and Woodsmith and find both a workable solution.

Right now, I am having issues trusting the current situation with powermatic, delta and many of the large importer/rebranders. As such, I feel even more uncomfortable recommending these items and therefore, I sincerely and humbly ask not to be asked for a recommendation on these units.

Sorry gang... this whole thing makes me queezy and uneasy. At lease with general of canada, I can rest assured of what I am getting and when I am getting it.

[Scott Coffelt]

Dunno,

I guess if the person wants brand D they can wait, or if they want brand G they can wait... or they can contact the Northern brand G and see what their lead time is. Me personally, I don't mind waiting. I guess it is a catch 22, we get mad when a company does't tell us about something coming out until they have stock and we get mad when they let us know and say it will be 6, 8, 12 weeks or more until they are in stock. I've not done price checks on all the various versions, so I have no idea how much differnece there is in price. That might dictate my choice as to what is a reasonable time for me to wait.

I mayself will be placing an order for a D0490 and patiently wait for it to arrive or I may just wait till they start showing up and then buy. Who knows?

[Dan Oliphant]

Dev, I wouldn't tie your technical opinion about a given brand or model to the delivery schedules of that brand. The buyers need to do enough homework on their own to have a plan "B" if what they want isn't going to be available for an extended amount of time.

By the way, Dev, a close up of your slider doesn't count a a shop tour!!! (and you promised)

[Dev Emch]

Dev, I wouldn't tie your technical opinion about a given brand or model to the delivery schedules of that brand. The buyers need to do enough homework on their own to have a plan "B" if what they want isn't going to be available for an extended amount of time.

But that is part of the problem. These companies are now operating from a position of secrecracy and clandestine internal information. Us hard core types who used to follow this have been denied access to this. So how is Joe Consumer supposed to do homework when some of us with a bit of tenacity and focus cann't even get the information? How can I feel good about a recommendation when my own gut is unsure about the whole grand picture?

[Jim Becker]

I would suggest that the potential buyer look beyond Amazon as a source for the DJ-20, if that is what they really want. Otherwise, alternatives are out there...in many colors.

[tod evans]

But that is part of the problem. These companies are now operating from a position of secrecracy and clandestine internal information. Us hard core types who used to follow this have been denied access to this. So how is Joe Consumer supposed to do homework when some of us with a bit of tenacity and focus cann't even get the information? How can I feel good about a recommendation when my own gut is unsure about the whole grand picture?

plain and simple; you can`t........i must wonder if even the distributors know where their next batch is comming from? obviously low bid gets the contract so quite possibly one container of grey or green might come from factory x while the next a few weeks later might come from factory y. i find it frightening that we as comsumers can`t readily even determine what continent or island half this stuff comes from.........but don`t worry they`ll stand behind it when it breaks. :) ....02 tod

[Russ Massery]

My dilemma is I have three people ready to buy my old jointer.And the same wait as you. I'm going to wait for the Grizzly.But I don't have a business to run.I think if I were you start looking at your other choices.Seriously............

[Allen Bookout]

Well----General of Canada is no better answer as far as waiting in Southwest Florida. They listed Woodcraft as their dealer for this area and last year when I bought a new cabinet saw I wanted a General so that I would be assured quality but Woodcraft said that I would have to wait until they had a large order because General would not ship for such a small order. They had no idea how long that I would have to wait. I ended up buying a Uni and was not real happy with the tabletop quality but at least I got it and it works.

Now I need a new eight inch jointer and because I think that Delta's quality has deteriorated and I think that the DJ20 is overpriced I put in an order for a Grizzly GO490 which if the quality is there is a great price. I wanted a parallelogram design so that I would not have to use shims if the tables are out. When I ordered I was confident because of all the great things that many members on this forum had to say about Grizzly. But now, not knowing where the machine comes from and therefore not knowing what kind of quality to expect I am getting just a little bit worried. I suppose that for the price I just should sit back, quit worring and let the chips fall where they may.

Could be the best answer is ------------ well I can't think of a best answer.

By the way Dev, a lot of us respect your opinion very much. Just don't worry about it when things do not go as smooth as silk.

Allen

[Brian King]

Hello Guys,
Why not buy a nice used older machine? You know where most of the older stuff was made.
Almost everyone has cut corners to compete with Grizzly and other low cost (comparatively speaking) imports.
The quality of most machines now is not that different from one to another. A Delta from taiwan or a Grizzly from there or China. It's all close to the same shtuff. Our Global economy (read cheap imports, big corporate profits, and the end of middle class America) has put us where we are.
What flavor ice cream do you like? It's all coming from the same place.
Just my 2 cents.

[Reg Mitchell]

Even though he was a little batty sometimes Ross said it best, if they sign that free trade agreement you will have a vacume of this countries jobs leaving to go to other countries. I have a few pices mad in tiwaneesechina dut i am letting them go for older heaver stuff that is made in america. :)

[Allen Bookout]

Brian said "Our Global economy (real cheap imports, big corporate profits, and the end of middle class America) has put us where we are".

Brian, You hit that right on the head. And nothing we can do about it since our government does not seem to care. Wonder why. Ha!!!!!

Around here there is not much in the way of good stuff, new or used. If I could keep an eye out around the Tampa are there might be but I live far enough away that it is difficult to know whats available up there. It could be worth the effort though. Orlando would probably be better yet but even farther away.

[Shiraz Balolia]

I think that the DJ20 is overpriced I put in an order for a Grizzly GO490 which if the quality is there is a great price. I wanted a parallelogram design so that I would not have to use shims if the tables are out. When I ordered I was confident because of all the great things that many members on this forum had to say about Grizzly. But now, not knowing where the machine comes from and therefore not knowing what kind of quality to expect I am getting just a little bit worried. I suppose that for the price I just should sit back, quit worring and let the chips fall where they may.
Allen

Hi Allen,

First off, thank you for the order.
Secondly, these are supposed to start coming in around the beginning to mid February onwards.
Finally, country of origin is not as important as the company you are dealing with. You bought a GRIZZLY, and you have a staff of over 350 dedicated Americans (Grizzly Employees) and a large, local, American company to stand behind what you bought. If and when something goes wrong, you will turn to us to support you, not some foreign factory overseas. And, you will not need to learn Chinese to get a problem fixed, although we can accomodate that as well! :)

[Allen Bookout]

Mr. Balolia,

Thanks so much for your response! That is the type of service that I received when I had to change my order to a lift gate delivery. Your employees got right back to me and it was NO PROBLEM. I will have to say that I was impressed. I have made some small purchases from Grizzly but this is the first machine that I have ordered so I am looking forward to its arrival. I feel better already.

Thanks again for taking out some time from your busy schedule for the little guy!!!!

Allen

[Russ Massery]

Check out this link:http://woodworker.com/cgi-bin/FULLPRES.exe?PARTNUM=37-350A

[Reg Mitchell]

Good evening Allen,
The goverments bussiness is bussiness. They, sorry to say, are only intrested in what is good for the government disguised as whats good for our country. There are things that can be done and that is buy american products.
As far as finding wood working equipment, there are plenty of places in fla to get things. A good friend gos to estate sales pretty regular and he tells me of things that go for cheep. If you really want good stuff you have to look for it it's not gonna fall in your lap.

[Allen Bookout]

What can I say Reg? You are right. I need to put out some effort to reap any rewards. Allen

[John Lucas]

Dev,
I think that if your advise were to be complete it would suggest buying from a reputable, servicing dealer. The DJ20 is a serious jointer at a serious cost. Why chance setup and delivery to Amazon/trucking.

[Barry O'Mahony]

Our Global economy (read cheap imports, big corporate profits, and the end of middle class America) has put us where we are. Rant on

Oh come on.

Every time I stop by Grizzly HQ (to use an example), the people in their seem distinctly middle class, and to like their jobs. I recognize some of the same folks from previous visits, so they must keep the employees happy enough for them to stay around.

IMHO, criticizing corporations for trying to make "big profits" is like criticizing fish for swimming. That's the whole reason corporations are formed in the first place - to increase shareholder value. If you think "excess profits" are being made, why don't you buy some stock and join the fun.

"cheap" imports improve consumer choice and standard of living. I ran across an old FWW article recently. The author commented that any hobby woodworker was nuts to buy a cabinet saw. His small shop agonized whether to get a 6" jointer, or make the "big commitment" to an 8". He ended up getting a 4". Bowsaws mean you don't need the huge expense of a bandsaw; eventually, his shop got a 14". Now when this article was written, machines were probably so expensive that there was some truth to this. But in the intervening years, the free market has worked its wonders to make an increasing selection of woodworking tools available to the public and ever more attractive prices. I don't consider that a bad thing.

I'd also like to add a personal perspective. My parents emigrated to this country when I was a toddler. Their main reason was because they knew that here, the opportunities for their children would be unlimited; if they took advantage of the educational opportunities here and worked hard, their success would be self-determined, rather than be pre-ordained by their socio-economic class like it would be in the country of our origin. Education was always stressed as the most important thing, like is was in many of the immigrant families I knew growing up in the Northeast.

It seems to me though, that the attitude in some native-born Americans is that, well, the world owes them a good life just by virture of them being Americans. Education and preparing yourself for life? Not important. High school is place to have the "time of your life", an attitude reinforced by countless movies and TV shows. Football players are idolized, students that work hard are villified as "nerds". All you need to do is show up for 4 years, and the you are entitled to be provided with a job with lifelong middle class employment when you graduate. The primary purpose of universities? To act as the semi-pro farm system for the NFL, in the minds of many.

Well guess what? The USA worker has competition now, whether or not alot of Americans acknowledge it, or think that it should be somehow prohibited. Educational accomplishment in other countries is admired rather than ridiculed. Families sacrifice both money and time to ensure their children are educated. People like Bill Gates are mobbed as celebrities at public appearances. Countries that used to see their best and brightest drawn to the USA to take advantage of opportunies are now developing the environment to keep them at home.

Rather than complaining that this is somehow "not right", we should change cultural attitudes, stop flushing our educational system down the tubes, and get off our butts and get to work.

Rant Off

[Dev Emch]

Barry...

Rant On

I dont really care if corporations make a profit but I think we all should understand who they are and why they do things the way they do.

For example, the emergence of china as an economic power has pushed up the cost of energy..... ALL engergy including coal. This has had the effect of bringing an dying industry back to life but in a new form. An envisonment of a wealthy investor who after steel plans to repeat his success with coal.

Alas, we witness the birth of INTERNATIONAL COAL GROUP or ICG.

Now explain to me why we as a country just had to live through the events of this week. A gut wrenching roller coaster that was not necessary. Yuppie snowboarders are equiped with avalanche beacons and GPS systems and walkie talkies that shot pictures. We watched as Neil Armstrong took those momentous first steps. We all held our breath when real americans like Neil Kranz brought our heros home from the back side of the moon. It takes more than three days of continous travel at way above the orbital escape velocity to get there. Radio transmissions are delayed by a few seconds. Yet it took the rescue crews 41 hours to find 12 men? Twelve men who had at most 1 to 1.5 hours of breathable air. Oh I understand now. This was the first time that ICG had ever experienced a coal mine explosion so no one had any idea of what to expect.

I dont think so. This is just another example of the greed of corporations run afoul. Its an architectual example of why we as a nation face the problems we do and the sooner we all wake up from our bliss, the sooner we can get to work to fix things. We have built ROVs to penetrate the deepest recesses of Titantic which is over 2 miles under water. So why does corporate america not avail themselves of this technology to improve mine safety? Give me a crew of layed off US high tech workers and a few engineers and a budget and I could have a whole new mine rescue system online in two years that can pinpoint a miner trapped in a mine in minutes. Maybe even seconds. What happened this week did not have to happen.

But it did. And as long as corporate america is allowed to pursue this twisted dream of outsourcing and global enslavement, any progress will only be backwards.

I say to my fellow americans, its time to wake up.

Rant Off

[Barry O'Mahony]

So why does corporate america not avail themselves of this technology to improve mine safety? Simple, because no one maked them do so.

There's no market mechanism that would incentivize a mining company to spend the big dollars on safety. While I believe in capitalism, unlike the Heritage Foundation types I don't believe is will magically solve all problems. OSHA is a wonderful thing and has saved many lives, whether people acknowledge it or not. Safety regulations must be mandatory and enforced, or companies will worry their competitors are getting unfair advantage. Unfortunatelty, the party currently in control of the government believes all government activity is bad, and is slowly working to return things to the "good ol' days" of the pre-New-Deal 1930's: a time when, among other things, lots of people used to die in workplace accidents.

[joe mclain]

Barry O'Mahony and Dev Emch ...

You are both (unfortunately) correct :mad:.<O:p</O:p

-jr-

[Rob Will]

First of all, I have no bone to pick with business. I am a business person myself. As a sole proprietor I alone am responsible for the activities, products, sucesses and failures of my business. Corporations on the other hand, take on a life of thier own where nobody is personally responsible for anything. That is why we incorporate is it not?... or perhaps we simply like those automated voice mail systems.

Yes it is all about making money. When I do it my house, my farm, my personal reputation is on the line. It takes a lifetime, sometimes several lifetimes of commitment. When a corporation makes money, it is all about quarterly earnings reports, layoffs, cutting corners etc.

It is my contention that the real backbone of the american economy is the mom and pop business, the privately held corporation, the people that take personal risk and put thier own reputations on the line. The "greatest generation", those that helped win WWII were of this stock.

The american innovators who started companies like Oliver, Powermatic etc. had thier butts on the line. Now that the innovators are gone and corporations took over, look where those companies are now.

Anybody can buy a few shares of WalMart, they'll even let you work there for minimum wage. Look how many jobs they have "created".

BTW, we used to have reasonable health care costs in this country.....corporations have really done wonders with that industry.

Hey.......didn't I get in trouble last week for talking about fosil fuels and the global economy? Barry and Dev started it.

I'm away from my desk right now but if you'll leave a message I'll get back with you. If you need immediate satisfaction press "0" for the automated operator.... or you can stay on the line and wonder if anybody is really here.

Rob

[Michael Charles]

Barry...

Rant On

I dont really care if corporations make a profit but I think we all should understand who they are and why they do things the way they do.

For example, the emergence of china as an economic power has pushed up the cost of energy..... ALL engergy including coal. This has had the effect of bringing an dying industry back to life but in a new form. An envisonment of a wealthy investor who after steel plans to repeat his success with coal.

Alas, we witness the birth of INTERNATIONAL COAL GROUP or ICG.

Now explain to me why we as a country just had to live through the events of this week. A gut wrenching roller coaster that was not necessary. Yuppie snowboarders are equiped with avalanche beacons and GPS systems and walkie talkies that shot pictures. We watched as Neil Armstrong took those momentous first steps. We all held our breath when real americans like Neil Kranz brought our heros home from the back side of the moon. It takes more than three days of continous travel at way above the orbital escape velocity to get there. Radio transmissions are delayed by a few seconds. Yet it took the rescue crews 41 hours to find 12 men? Twelve men who had at most 1 to 1.5 hours of breathable air. Oh I understand now. This was the first time that ICG had ever experienced a coal mine explosion so no one had any idea of what to expect.

I dont think so. This is just another example of the greed of corporations run afoul. Its an architectual example of why we as a nation face the problems we do and the sooner we all wake up from our bliss, the sooner we can get to work to fix things. We have built ROVs to penetrate the deepest recesses of Titantic which is over 2 miles under water. So why does corporate america not avail themselves of this technology to improve mine safety? Give me a crew of layed off US high tech workers and a few engineers and a budget and I could have a whole new mine rescue system online in two years that can pinpoint a miner trapped in a mine in minutes. Maybe even seconds. What happened this week did not have to happen.

But it did. And as long as corporate america is allowed to pursue this twisted dream of outsourcing and global enslavement, any progress will only be backwards.

I say to my fellow americans, its time to wake up.

Rant Off

Dev,
I agree with part of what you are saying, however I wanted to clearify a few facts for you.

1. Coal was not a dying industry. I know a little about what I am talking about here. I once was a coal miner in East KY before moving to sunny FL. I still have family members(one of which is my brother) who work in and around coal mines. I myself was injured in a mining accident, my father, several uncles have been injuried as well. I had an uncle and a grandfather die inside a mines due to seperate rock falls. It is a dangerous profession. Always has been, always will be. Everyone working in this profession are aware of the risks. Ref the explosion, there is still info we dont know. They speculate a lighting strike could have hit an abandon well to cause the explosion. We know this was the first shift back to work since the holidays. What we dont know is if the fans were off for the entire vacation break. If so that was asking for trouble. Methane gas would build up to deadly levels, quickly. If the fans were turned off they should have been turned on at least 24 hours in advance to circulate the gas out of the mines. Also, not sure if this happened or not, but it use to be law that 1 hour before shift was suppose to start the mine forman was suppose to be inside the mines taking air/methane readings. We dont know if this happened. We have been told that the mines had several infractions over the years, most of which occured before ICG took over. Let me tell you, no mines will get through an inspection without getting at least several infractions.
2. After the explosion took place, ICG was no longer in charge of the scene. MSHA (Mine Safety and Health Administration) was in charge to getting the drilling rig there to start drilling holes to get fresh air circulating to where they thought the trapped miners were, and it was MSHA who was in charge of getting properly trained rescue worker on scene to safely walk into the mines to try to locate the trapped miners. This takes time to get all this lined up. For the safty of the rescuers, they do not rush in, because there is no telling what will happen. They have to proceed with caution, testing the levels of methane and checking roof supports as they go in.
I hope this does not upset you, that was not my intention, I just wanted to give sorta an inside look at what appears to be a very slow response to try to save these trapped miners. I am sure I am missing a few points but I seem to forget things as I am typing.

[Allen Bookout]

Barry O'Mahony,

I read your "Rant on" post with total amazement. Most of it does not even warrant a response. I think that you would feel better if you really got out and took a close look at America. Check your visa first and make sure that it is still current.

Have you been to any of those countries that you are talking about? You should go to some of those countries and take a look at their "middle class" and then make a judgment. I think that your perspective would change and that should make you feel better also.

Why do you think that so many thousands of people try to get into this country to live?

Allen Bookout
Degree from major United States University. (One of those semi-pro NFL places that you talk about. The sports in reality only accounts for a minor part of any major university.)
Thirty one years working for a major world wide transporation corporation. (Made up of Americans believe it or not)
NATIVE BORN AMERICAN (One of those with a bad attitude that you talk about)

[tod evans]

i fit the "bad attitude" catagory to a "t". i`d also like to get this thread back on course because i feel that shiraz has made a very interesting statement..... that it doesn`t matter where tools are produced........ i for one would like to know that what i buy is made by folks who have enough pride in their craft that they display their logo prominantly on the front of their factory even if it is in pakastan.......i think all of us allready know the answer to this question but i`ll ask it anyway......is there a delta factory somewhere? or a griz? or powermatic or even general int? or are these "consumer goods" run down the same assembly line as the honda and kawasaki motorcycles? does it matter to anyone but me?????
yes i was born here
i drive old chevies
ride american iron
and am ashamed at our country for the wal-mart mentality....02 tod

[Jim Becker]

Careful, folks...this thread is straying and Uncle Ken is gonna bare his teeth! ;)

[Tim Marks]

Yuppie snowboarders are equiped with avalanche beacons and GPS systems and walkie talkies ... Yet it took the rescue crews 41 hours to find 12 men? ... Give me a crew of layed off US high tech workers and a few engineers and a budget and I could have a whole new mine rescue system online in two years that can pinpoint a miner trapped in a mine in minutes.

You are drawing some parallels which do not exist.

Do you think miners will be able to communicate from deep in the earth with a radio? Hand held communication devices cannot operate on a wavelength which can penetrate the earth. For ELF transmissions, you need antennas which are thousands of feet long.

Phone cables already exist in mine shafts for communications, and are not reliable source of communications when a cave-in occurs.

Smart men have spent alot of time and companies alot of money devleoping safety gear. Unfortunately, the communications systems that you envision are the stuff of science fiction, which would require a scientific breakthrough to build, not just good engineering.

What do you propose?

[Steve Clardy]

From machinery to:confused: :confused: :confused: :rolleyes:

[Allen Bookout]

When shopping for a jointer here is what I ran across.

Grizzly: Makes no bones about it. Most of their machinery is made overseas. When they do have a product made in the USA, such as Jorgensen clamps, they have a symbol at the top of the page so that you will know. Thumbs up for their system. They let the consumer decide.

Wilke: Saw a USA symbol at one of their jointers and clicked on it. Said motor made in the United States. Misleading. Thumbs down.

General: Split into two devisions - General made in Canada. General International made overseas. Very clear. Thumbs up.

Delta: Says nothing. Tries to live on reputation. The only way to know is to order it and see if it says "Proudly mad e in USA". Customer kept in the dark. Thumbs down.

I know that there are hundreds and hundres of other companies and no one knows where there stuff is made unless you are really in the know. I prefer do deal with a company that is straight forward about their product.

I may be wrong but I do not think that there are many non production class power tools that are made in this country. It would be interesting to see a list of Companies, their products and place of manufacture and at what price point they are split off. Very few people would have the knowledge to do that. It would take the companies themselves to pull it off and most of them would have no inclination to do so. I did see the list of consumer grade jointers provided by one of the members here on another thread that was a help. Thanks a lot.

I suppose that this post has no real value except for me. When I am looking for a large power tool from now on I will look at General and Grizzly because of their apparent honesty. If I had a production business the list would of course increase.

[Scott Parks]

You bought a GRIZZLY, and you have a staff of over 350 dedicated Americans (Grizzly Employees) and a large, local, American company to stand behind what you bought. If and when something goes wrong, you will turn to us to support you, not some foreign factory overseas. And, you will not need to learn Chinese to get a problem fixed, although we can accomodate that as well! :)

Papa G is true to his word... They worked with me to get it right, even though it took a year of trial and error...:) Thank you.

[Allen Bookout]

What happened? I know that I saw post 31 and it just disappeared. Oh well!

What a great thread! So many different subjects--- jointers, mineing, communication technology, free trade, American attitudes and corperate policies. Doesn't get any better than that!!!!!

Allen

[tod evans]

Papa G is true to his word... They worked with me to get it right, even though it took a year of trial and error...:) Thank you.

scott, just what left you without equipment for a year? tod

[Tim Marks]

General: Split into two devisions - General made in Canada. General International made overseas. Very clear. Thumbs up

Of course, the General machines say "Powerful North American designed T.E.F.C. motor", which screams to me "made in China".

[Allen Bookout]

Tim, I though that I had it figured out but may be not. Will look into it some more. Allen

I went to the General/General International web site and I see that all of the General products have a Canadian flag which I assumed meant that they were produced in Canada like Delta's "Proudly Made in the USA" sticker. But I stress that it is an ASSUMPTION and not a known fact. None of the General Internationals had a Canadian flag.

I think that I got that idea from other post in the past and in talking with them last year when I was trying to buy one of their table saws. To bad that I could not get one when I needed it. I would have loved to try it out.

If it was not the weekend I would call them and get the real scoop. May be one of the Canadians will see this post and they should know for sure.

Allen

[Scott Parks]

scott, just what left you without equipment for a year? tod
I wasn't without equipment. I was just far too busy to remedy it. I had a cabinet saw suffering from some sort of blade deflection. I was getting a wavy/scored cut. We tried several arbor assemblies on it. I think the problem was due to having flex on the trunnion ways. It may have been a cracked casting in a spot I couldn't see, but I don't know. I wasn't without a saw, still used the bad one while trouble shooting. Plus, I was in the middle of a fix/flip house project and didn't need the 'fine woodworking' accuracy. After I made a major cross country move, I had the time to swap out the saw. They sent me a replacement first, and I sent the old one back in the same crate.... I guess that my point was even a year after the original purchase, they still had excellent support for me.

[tod evans]

I wasn't without equipment. I was just far too busy to remedy it. I had a cabinet saw suffering from some sort of blade deflection. I was getting a wavy/scored cut. We tried several arbor assemblies on it. I think the problem was due to having flex on the trunnion ways. It may have been a cracked casting in a spot I couldn't see, but I don't know. I wasn't without a saw, still used the bad one while trouble shooting. Plus, I was in the middle of a fix/flip house project and didn't need the 'fine woodworking' accuracy. After I made a major cross country move, I had the time to swap out the saw. They sent me a replacement first, and I sent the old one back in the same crate.... I guess that my point was even a year after the original purchase, they still had excellent support for me.

that speaks pretty highly of griz!

[Tim Marks]

I went to the General/General International web site and I see that all of the General products have a Canadian flag which I assumed meant that they were produced in Canada

The dorgings/casting and most of the parts are made in Canada, but I suspect that the motors probably are made in China or Taiwan (since their website claims credit for manufacturing stuff in Canada, but doesn't make the same claim about the motor).

[Glen Gunderson]

For their table saws at least, they use an American made Baldor motor. Everything else on the General saws is made in Canada. General International saws are made entirely in Taiwan except for the fences which are Canadian made (and hence have the Canadian flag on them).

[Allen Bookout]

Thanks guys! That is what I thought but was not sure enough to bet on it. Allen

[Jay Knoll]

Well, I will jump in here and say that I'm the guy that asked Dev for his continuing advice.

I spent a lot of time reading/thinking/ checking out stuff and then waited and saved to buy a DJ20. Amazon had the best price and there isn't a Delta dealer in this little town so I'm out on my own on setup etc.

I ordered it in early October, got a notice it would arrive exactly when I would be out of town on business. Called Amazon and asked them to delay shipping a week, they said they couldn't do that "it was in the system" so I would have to cancel and re order. I did that in November, was told it would arrive December 1, then it was delayed to "between Christmas and January 5th" then on the Jan 6th I was told that it would ship sometime in late February. As an aside, Katrina was cited as a reason that their shipments were delayed -- "all resources are being used to provide emergency aid" or something to that effect was mentioned!

By the way, it was indicated that it was "in stock" when I ordered it, so I'm not ranting about something that wasn't there when I wanted it.

So then I'm waiting and watching all the jointer wars here on the Creek, and still thinking that I have made the right decision, then Grizzly comes out with their new 8" model -- at a significantly lower price.

I've been burned before by being an "early adapter" and buying a hot off the press item, so frankly I am a bit taken aback by the prospect of buying a totally new machine even though you guys seem to be very happy with Grizzly quality/customer service.

So there you have it, I'm sitting here with a paid for mobile DJ20 base, I am aware of the Woodworker.com offering (found it this afternoon) and am wondering if I should take the leap, cancel the Amazon order, put the base up on Ebay and here in the classifieds, and order the Griz. Or, cancel Amazon and buy the unit from Woodworker.

Like many others here I am "out on my own" without the ability to take a short drive and find other woodworkers. And coming up the learning curve on machinery is real tough when you've make your livelihood pushing paper and ideas. I really depend up the opinions I find here, and lean more heavily toward those expressed by people who actually have their hands on the products they are talking about.

So that is where I am at the present time. Frankly, I think Amazon has done a terrible job of customer follow through and I doubt if I will ever buy something "big" from them again.

Jay

[Jay Knoll]

I forgot to mention that I don't hold Dev in any way responsibile for the "quandry" I find myself in. He (and others) provided great information and helped me learn about the pros/cons of the various jointers. I made the buying decision and don't blame him at all. My followup questions were more about helping me make an ongoing decision. I am most appreciative of his onging advice and I hope he continues to post his views!

Jay

[Jim Becker]

Jay, ask International Tool in Davie if they have it available...

[Jay Knoll]

Thanks Jim I'll check with them on Monday

[Jeff Singleton]

Dev, I have never cared for Grizzly but they do have a neat catalog, don't own any Grizzly and probably never will. Delta has been going down hill for years. Had a Unisaw and traded up to a PM66 and that was only because I could not afford a Northfield. You would be much farther ahead and better off by trying to find a used Northfield 12", Oliver 12", Porter 12". These are all cast iron and USA cast iron at that but be warned that just because it's cast iron that it's good. Cast iron is only as good as the patternmaker, foundry worker, and machinist make it and nobody does it any better then the US workforce. You can actually call Northfield and talk to Jeff M. on the phone, he is the plant manager and he will help you any way he can. Let's see if you can get Grizzly's or Delta's plant managers on the phone and if by chance you do I wonder what language he would be speaking. If you need a 12" Northfield I know a guy that has one for sale for less then the Delta. If you want his number let me know and you can talk to him yourself. I think anything smaller then a 12" is worthless and I prefer a 16" or 24". The only way to get a board flat is to face joint it before sending it through the planer. Those are my thoughts only from a patternmaker and woodworkers point of view. Happy splinters.
Jeff Singleton;)

[Jay Knoll]

. I think anything smaller then a 12" is worthless and I prefer a 16" or 24". The only way to get a board flat is to face joint it before sending it through the planer. Those are my thoughts only from a patternmaker and woodworkers point of view. Happy splinters.
Jeff Singleton;)


Jeff, glad you have the shop space for that kind of Iron. I"m struggling to find a place to move around the DJ20 in my shared garage space! Can't imagine what I would do with a 96" bed.

I understand that guys that make their living need big iron, but as a learning hobbyist I am hoping that the 8" will do the job for me. No, let me put it another way, it has to do the job for me because there isn't any way that I'm going to get a bigger machine in the shop, er....... garage that sometimes gets a car in it when a hurricane is coming.

In fact that is why I didn't include the PM in my list, it is just "plane" too long!

Jay

[Allen Bookout]

You have to be going crazy Jay. I had a simular problem in a different way when trying to buy a cabinet saw last year. It's no fun.

Jeff was talking about a 12" Northfield, Oliver or Porter. I did some looking around on the web and I see several problems with that prospect. As you said one is space. Weighing in at 1400 lbs, even with a robust mobil base, it might be a little much to move it around much considering the room much of us have. Room is at a premium for me also. The other thing that concerns me is Dev talking about the cost of bearings on that type of machine costing between $400 and $600 apiece. A couple of bearings going out would be a real disaster considering the cost of the used machine to start with. If you were a real expert at evaluating the machine to start with and you had the room for a somewhat large stationary jointer I can see that they must be magnificant machines to own.

Now, unfortunately, back to reality for Jay and myself. The only place that I can think of that is near you for the DJ20 is Utterguys. I looked at their site and they have it listed for $1599. Now you have to pay tax, another $112 or so. Now we are at $1711. Sounds very high to me for what you get. And you know what---it is still not at your house. Add on to the $1711 either freight or cost of going to pick it up. What are we up to now? $1800 or $1900? That is why I did not pursue buying from them. The link showing Woodworkers Supply in this thread showed a price of $1449.99 (can add a mobil base for $95.99 for a total price of $1545.98). I do not know about shipping charges. They shipped my Uni free.

The figures above are why when I saw the Grizzly GO490 for an introductory price of $750 I jumped on it that very minute. I have waited on better deals before and have been burned. I could be wrong but I expect it to be an exact copy of the DJ20. They are both improrts. Who knows about the quality compairson but I do not think that Grizzly would risk a bad quality machine with their reputation zooming up the charts.

Just some things to think about.

I do not expect mine for four to six weeks but if you have not done anything by then you are welcome to come over and take a look for yourself.

I hope that you are able to resolve your situation soon!

Let us know what you decide to do. I will be real interested.

Allen Bookout from the other coast of Florida.

[Dev Emch]

Dev, I have never cared for Grizzly but they do have a neat catalog, don't own any Grizzly and probably never will. Delta has been going down hill for years. Had a Unisaw and traded up to a PM66 and that was only because I could not afford a Northfield. You would be much farther ahead and better off by trying to find a used Northfield 12", Oliver 12", Porter 12". These are all cast iron and USA cast iron at that but be warned that just because it's cast iron that it's good. Cast iron is only as good as the patternmaker, foundry worker, and machinist make it and nobody does it any better then the US workforce. You can actually call Northfield and talk to Jeff M. on the phone, he is the plant manager and he will help you any way he can. Let's see if you can get Grizzly's or Delta's plant managers on the phone and if by chance you do I wonder what language he would be speaking. If you need a 12" Northfield I know a guy that has one for sale for less then the Delta. If you want his number let me know and you can talk to him yourself. I think anything smaller then a 12" is worthless and I prefer a 16" or 24". The only way to get a board flat is to face joint it before sending it through the planer. Those are my thoughts only from a patternmaker and woodworkers point of view. Happy splinters.
Jeff Singleton;)

I have to agree with Jeff S. on these points. Furthermore, Jeff Mahajek (sp?) is the plant manager but his grandfather designed most of these machines as this family owns Northfield. Jeff M. is down to earth and extremely helpful and usually humbled that folks wish to rebuild his grandpa's creation. Also note that the northfield HD is the only jointer with BOX CORE tables. This is the absolute most stable table you can build for a jointer. Period. End of Story. They also use those balmy Minnosota winters to properly season all castings prior to machining. Northfields are not the best jointers out there but they as massively leaps and bounds ahead of most jointers.

[Allen Bookout]

Dev and Jeff, Do not think that your information is not being absorbed and that it is wasted. I am certainly keeping it in reserve for the time that my shop space increases. I would love to have a machine like that!!!! Allen

[tod evans]

jay, my opinions on taiwan tools are pretty well known:) but given that a dj20 or one of its clones is all that will fit in your shop i think you may be money ahead to purchase from shiraz.....although i haven`t been able to get a straight answer from anybody as to where these machines are assembled i`m betting the assembly line only splits at the paint booth...when you combine this with the numerous glowing reports of griz service on this forum alone i honestly think this is the wisest choice for you.......just for kicks ask if anybody has had good or even fair service from delta in the last 10yrs??.............02 tod

[Allen Bookout]

Jay, I happened to be looking at some stuff at Redmond and Son and noticed that they show a DJ20 reconditioned jointer for $1305. Of course no tax but you have shipping. I do not know what the shipping charge would be but I got a 14" Delta bandsaw upper only from them and I think that it was about $130 and it certainly weighs less than a jointer by a fair amount. I did have to pick it up at the shippers terminal though. You may not be interested but if you are here is the link.

http://www.redmond-machinery.com/delta_37-350a.htm

I am sticking with the Grizzly.

We are all waiting to see what you are going to do. Do not feel any pressure though.

Allen

[Jay Knoll]

Alan

Thanks for the heads up, but the machine is gone. It will cost $285 to ship the thing to Vero so the price is mounting up!

Still thinking and waiting for a contact from Amazon "customer service"

[Peter Gavin]

I personally don't care where a machine is manufactured or who gets the job of doing it. China has just as much rights to energy resources as we do, in fact since we use 80% of the energy resouces of the world with about 10% of the population, I guess the argument could be made that they have a better right to them. My complaint is dishonesty and unfair competition. If companies in the USA have to comply with environmental, safety, compliance etc regulations and companies in other countries don't, then our costs of business are going to be higher. Also, because of our peculiar system of Health Insurance, most of our competitors have another huge cost that they don't have to pay. The only way we are going to level these playing fields are to stress Fair competition over Free competition. If we have to impose import tariffs or duties to make foreign companies pay their fair share of worldwide production costs that are not reflected in operating costs, then so be it. I do not believe we should sacrifice the safety et al regulations that generations of workers have fought for and achieved in these areas. My other pet peeve is corporations that are so focused on quarterly performance that they ignore the long term consequesnces of there actions. I belive that companies (like Delta) figured that they could move manufacturing overseas and lower their costs and that no one would notice the quality difference for 'a few quarters' at least so they could maintain thier price level and margins. Well, they got away with it, but now the chickens are coming home to roost. People are noticing the quality decline and demanding the same price levels that the more honest companies (like Grizzly) have been offering. I believe that companies like Lee Valley and Lee Niesen have demonstrated that people are willing to pay a premum for higher quality and you can get that quality using Made in America (or Canada) labor. Unfortunately, as the US Auto Industry proved, once you forget how to build quality, it may take a long time ( or be impossible) to regain. In an ideal world, why can't we have different levels of quality (and bells and whistles) offered at different price levels, made whereever but the facts honestly presented?

Sorry, I hope I didn't get myself banned from the board

Peter

[Allen Bookout]

Good points Peter. I vote against banning you! Allen

[Jay Knoll]

Well guys, let's put this thread to sleep for a month or so until the new shop addition arrives.

Thanks to everyone for your advice and guidance, I"ll let you know more when the unit arrives.

[Allen Bookout]

Jay, I am glad that you got things worked out so that you could get something on the way. I could be wrong but I just have a very good feeling about this unit. Time will tell.

Allen

[Donnie Raines]

Seems as though I have seen this conversation here before. Hmmmm:rolleyes:

[Barry O'Mahony]

Barry O'Mahony,

I read your "Rant on" post with total amazement. Most of it does not even warrant a response. I think that you would feel better if you really got out and took a close look at America. Check your visa first and make sure that it is still current. ...
Allan,
Apparently you thought I was disparaging the country, rather than the attitude that has been developing amongst some of its residents. Nothing could be further from the truth.

No visa here; ‘sounds like I’ve been a citizen about as long as you have. And while my passport is only two years old, it’s well worn from international travel.

People are trying to get into this country because the opportunities are here. But that shouldn’t blind us to the fact that we’re in intense global competition, and we need to work hard to stay ahead. If you went to a university you're not part of the problem. Maybe you don't realize how many Americans don’t, or how many don't even graduate high school.

Like the folks in the small town I live near. For some of them, it's OK that their daughters drop out at 16 to get married, and they proudly display their "My kid can beat up your honor student" bumper sticker on their trucks. They always vote against the school bond measure, but see nothing wrong with the football coach at the state university earning about $1 million a year, while 60% of his players fail to graduate and face a grim future. Now in the past they could count on getting a decent job at the mill, in the woods, or even stuffing circuit boards at a local assembly plant. But those jobs are gone and spending the day in the pool hall complaining about outsourcing, and about how corporate America is screwing them by not providing jobs for their minimally-qualified selves, won’t bring them back.

Or the big urban high school in Portland some of my relatives sent their kids to. Getting an “A” can be dangerous to your health. The student body president was arrested for armed robbery, and was a hero to the students. They eventually decided it was pointless to continue to send their kids there, pulled them out, and sent them early to the community college.

Even some of our colleges are not immune. From "Beer and Circus", a book by English professor Murray Sperber of Indiana University: "About 40 per cent of college grads take no courses in English or American literature and nearly 31 per cent have never taken a math course. More than 56 per cent can't calculate the change from $3 after buying a bowl of soup for 60 cents and a sandwich for $1.95. Many cannot read and understand a simple set of directions. College kids are being fed a junk diet of alcohol, spectator sports and partying”

I think just blindly shouting “We’re #1!!” over and over without facing up to these issues will lead to us squandering the prosperity the “Greatest Generation” built up for us post-WWII.

More On Topic, Taiwan is a manufacturing power house; it’s no surprise they are a prolific source of power tools. Taiwan has some of the most advanced, multi-billion-dollar factories in the world; it is a mischaracterization to say that they are strictly a low-tech manufacturing source. For example, unbeknownst to many, some of the most prominent U.S. hi-tech silicon chips companies are only design houses, and depend on Taiwanese companies TSMC and UMC for their manufacturing.

The free market has responded to the desire of hundreds of thousands of hobbyists to acquire woodworking tools. They represent a customer base that will support high-volume manufacturing of products designed for customers that don’t use the tools all day, every day, don’t get to depreciate the purchase on their taxes; tools that can be purchased with the average person’s discretionary spending. High-volume manufacturing typically takes advantage of a complex, multiply-sourced global supply chain; as opposed to low-volume, high margin industrial manufacturing done on non-dedicated production lines. Can you name the people who manufactured your last loaf of bread, or where it was located? Probably not.

Maybe one can lament the fact that hobbyists can now afford something besides 4” jointers and hand tools, or that formerly industrial-only manufacturers now use their brand to sell products to the broad market. But such “churn” happens in every market. If the Delta brand is no longer a guarantee of a certain performance level, one needs to look then at other, still-industrial-oriented suppliers. 'just don't expect to pay the same price as what you pay for tools from the "new Delta".

Given that we want other countries to develop healthy economies, and that international trade contributes to stability and peace, I think it’s a bit disingenuous to be flatly opposed to buying non-U.S. manufactured goods, but not be opposed to buying raw materials from them. Either trade is good, or it isn’t. I’m sure holders of U.S. oil fields that would only be profitable it the prices hit $120/barrel would be real happy if we decided not to “outsource” some of our oil production. But we’d all be poorer as a result.

Finally, when people criticize “cheap” Taiwanese tools, why is it that it is often based on a comparison with a much-more expensive domestic tools? I hardly ever read about a $7K domestic tool being compared to a $7K Taiwanese tool; it’s always compared with the $1K Taiwanese model.

[Allen Bookout]

Barry O'Mahony,

Well, you do make some very good points which would be very difficult to argue against.

I must have been in a crummy mood when I read your post that I responded to.

My most sincere apology!!!!! Allen Bookout

[tod evans]

barry, i agree with your statements about our educational system. but i dissagree with the policies that allow such a vast majority of our consumer goods to be produced overseas and priced where the blue collar american workforce is unable to compete. the bubbas of this country are being forced to sit on their duffs and drain money from the coffers we all complain about filling on april 15th. i don`t have the foggiest idea how to address this issue but i can say with certainty that it will have to be addressed sooner than later. the blue collar jobs are being farmed out at an alarming rate and if those of us who are able don`t do something about it parts of america won`t be safe for the business owner or executive. the bubbas with their bumper stickers and 12ga shotguns will simply do what our forefathers did and take what they want....either that or we as a collected group of educated men must figure a way to keep more of our manufacturing at home. a hillbillies perspective on world economics....02 tod

[Jay Knoll]

[QUOTE=tod evans]barry, i agree with your statements about our educational system. but i dissagree with the policies that allow such a vast majority of our consumer goods to be produced overseas and priced where the blue collar american workforce is unable to compete.

Todd

I don't really know if there are "policies" unless you are referring to Free Trade in general. No CEO says it is our policy to produce offshore -- he/she is forced to do that to compete against others that have lower costs.

I strongly urge everyone to read "The World is Flat" by Thomas Friedman (he writes for the New York Times) In fact, if you have kids, and they are in the 8th grade or above, read it with them!

Meanwhile, I'm waiting for the jointer! March , come on, March!

Jay

[John Bailey]

I try not to get into these type threads, however, I must endorse the reading of "The World Is Flat" by Thomas Friedman. Good book!!

John

[Barry O'Mahony]

Barry O'Mahony,

Well, you do make some very good points which would be very difficult to argue against.

I must have been in a crummy mood when I read your post that I responded to.

My most sincere apology!!!!! Allen BookoutAllen,

No apology really necessary; I always assume you need to have a thick skin to participate in these forums and if I can't stand the heat, I should stay out of the fire. The thoughts are most appreciated though.

In any case, multiple endorsements of the Thomas Friedman book seems an appropriate way to wind down this thread.

[Jay T. Marlin]

"The product is not in stock and won't be shipped for a few months" is just a verbose way of saying "upgrade time".

HTH.

[Allen Bookout]

"The product is not in stock and won't be shipped for a few months" is just a verbose way of saying "upgrade time".

HTH.
Jay, Where did you get your information? Are you talking about the Grizzly GO490? I have not been keeping up but I ordered mine (GO490) Jan the 5th and expected it somewhere between the first and middle of Feb. Is this not correct now? I would like to know as I need to sell my 6" but may be I should hold off for a while.

Allen

[Jay Knoll]

Jay, Where did you get your information? Are you talking about the Grizzly GO490? I have not been keeping up but I ordered mine (GO490) Jan the 5th and expected it somewhere between the first and middle of Feb. Is this not correct now? I would like to know as I need to sell my 6" but may be I should hold off for a while.

Allen


Allen

I got that information from the customer service rep when I placed the order, I don't know if that applies to you since you ordered earlier than I did. So......... maybe I'm getting something from the second wave of shipments.

Why not call them to check on the status?

Jay

[Allen Bookout]

For anyone that is waiting for the GO490 I just called Grizzly and they did confirm that the units should be shipped at the last of February or the first part of March. They said that time frame has been confirmed and that they should have enough units to supply all customers that have ordered so far. Jay Marlin (see above) had me a little concerned but if what they told me holds up it will not be several months. Allen

[Russ Massery]

Allan, I P.M.'d Shriaz He told me they expect them the 3rd week of Feb. shipping soon after that. He did say there were a lot of Backorders on them.

[Allen Bookout]

Thanks Russ! Allen