I am looking for Patent drawing advice

[Mark Hennebury]

Does anyone have any experience with turning 3D CAD models into drawings acceptable for a patent application?

[Mike Henderson]

Your patent attorney will have the ability to create the drawings required for your patent application. They do it with almost every patent. Not that they draw it themselves but they can have someone do it.

And you do need a patent attorney to file a patent.

Mike

[Mark Hennebury]

Hi Mike,

After looking around online, i had been considering doing the drawings myself, but have not seen any easy solution for it, so maybe it is best to leave it up to the professionals.

Thanks for your reply and advice.

[roger wiegand]

I've never written a mechanical patent, but have done many on chemical compositions and uses. The drawings for those (genetic constructs, sequences, chemical structures, and biological data) are just the same as we would prepare for a journal publication. I don't ever remember any special requirements. We'd provide them in Powerpoint or Excel tables and the lawyers would insert them into the documents as they prepared them.

Ask your lawyer what they need.

[Mark Hennebury]

Hi Roger,

Mechanical drawings from what i can find, need to have line drawn shading as in the photo. The Cad program can produce an outline drawing or fully shaded photo realistic image but not the line drawn shading.

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[Malcolm McLeod]

I've filed 3 patents in USA; no attorney required; used CAD-shaded dwgs. Canada may have other requirements?

[Mark Hennebury]

Thanks Malcolm,

I would probably file for a US patent anyway.

I have spoken to an attorney some time back, and the cost was a big factor in considering doing the drawings and filing myself. One idea would require quite a few drawings to cover many variations, so it was looking quite expensive, and that made me back off. I would like to go ahead and that's why i was looking into the possibility of filing myself or at least doing as much of the work as possible.



I've filed 3 patents in USA; no attorney required; used CAD-shaded dwgs. Canada may have other requirements?

[John K Jordan]

Hi Roger,

Mechanical drawings from what i can find, need to have line drawn shading as in the photo. The Cad program can produce an outline drawing or fully shaded photo realistic image but not the line drawn shading.

452441


Does anyone have any experience with turning 3D CAD models into drawings acceptable for a patent application?

We sent drawings and details to the patent attorneys and they wrote up everything. When the patents were issued someone, probably in the attorney group, had redrawn them. (I thought mine were better but hey, theirs worked. :)) They were always line drawings similar to one you showed, sometimes cruder.

If your cad program won't produce line drawings you could trace a rendering with Illustrator or something, or get a graphics person to do it. You might contact the company that created your cad software or ask on a forum/user group. There may be a solution or a plugin that will do it. Also, I did a quick google search and got a bunch of hits including videos - at first glance it looked like they were all specific to certain programs. Maybe include the name of your software in the search. Or ask an architect - they do this all the time. I could ask my son if I can catch him with a free moment.

JKJ

[Mike Henderson]

I've filed 3 patents in USA; no attorney required; used CAD-shaded dwgs. Canada may have other requirements?

The important part of a patent is the claims section. Drafting those takes someone who is trained and is skilled in writing claims. They need to be able to stand up to a court challenge (if it comes to that).

I certainly would not want to draft claims myself.

Mike

[Mark Hennebury]

The important part of a patent is the claims section. Drafting those takes someone who is trained and is skilled in writing claims. They need to be able to stand up to a court challenge (if it comes to that).

I certainly would not want to draft claims myself.

Mike

I have a bunch of designs for various things over the years, some very simple, maybe one or two parts, which i would be okay filing myself; some very complicated with hundreds of parts and dozens of variations and possible could be a big deal, for which i wouldn't be able to write the claims, only supply the drawings and info to the attorney. So i was thinking of getting my feet wet with a very simple tool idea, two parts, nothing complicated. Every time that I have looked at getting patents it got quite overwhelming and i just put it on the back burner. I am at a point in my life, where it is time to do it, cant put it off any longer. So i just have to figure out the way ahead, and I know that a few people on the forum have got patents, so was hoping to find some direction to get going.

[Mike Henderson]

The problem with patents is that you have to enforce them and that's very expensive. When I was at AT&T, we would occasionally have some individual claim that we were infringing his/her patent. I remember one time the chief patent attorney told the person, "I have 250 attorneys on staff. I'll assign one of them to your case and he'll drag the case out for at least ten years. Can you afford to pursue your case that long? If not, why don't we make a reasonable deal?" In this case, "reasonable" didn't cost us very much.

It's different when two companies sue each other, but they're very reluctant to do so because juries don't understand patents and patent law so you never know how the case will come out. Most claims between companies are settled out of court, perhaps with a cross license agreement.

Mike

[I have a number of patents but they're all assigned to the company I was working for at the time.]

[Mark Hennebury]

The problem with patents is that you have to enforce them and that's very expensive. When I was at AT&T, we would occasionally have some individual claim that we were infringing his/her patent. I remember one time the chief patent attorney told the person, "I have 250 attorneys on staff. I'll assign one of them to your case and he'll drag the case out for at least ten years. Can you afford to pursue your case that long? If not, why don't we make a reasonable deal?" In this case, "reasonable" didn't cost us very much.

It's different when two companies sue each other, but they're very reluctant to do so because juries don't understand patents and patent law so you never know how the case will come out. Most claims between companies are settled out of court, perhaps with a cross license agreement.

Mike

[I have a number of patents but they're all assigned to the company I was working for at the time.]

I did speak to a lawyer a few years back that had done some work for me on a different matter; he said similar thing in that, if you idea is a big deal, you would have no chance of defending it against a large corporation. He said that you wouldn't find a law firm to defend it; they would be risking going bankrupt by going up against a large corporation.
Which is a little disheartening to say the least. I did see the movie about the intermittent wiper "Flash of Genius" where the inventor took Ford to court over infringing on his patents.

[Mike Henderson]

I did see the movie about the intermittent wiper "Flash of Genius" where the inventor took Ford to court over infringing on his patents.

Yes, it's so unusual that they made a movie out of it.

Mike

[Grant Wilkinson]

Do you have a higher resolution graphic? This one is only 72dpi.

I've sent you a PM>

[Malcolm McLeod]

The problem with patents is that you have to enforce them...

Agreed. The ones I filed - years ago - were for another's inventions and in their names (I just adjusted the design slightly to improve manufacturability), and to the best of my knowledge never earned a dime. I guess the upside is that no one had to attempt enforcement?

Often inventions that seem to be the PERFECT solution to your problem, are just that. Your problem. No one else knows or cares.

Aside: I wonder what percentage of patents issued - forget those not issued - ever earn any money? ...I've never seen statistics.

[Mark Hennebury]

Yes, it's so unusual that they made a movie out of it.

Mike


Yeah, having had claims against a few big businesses over the years, I understand how they play; Deny, Delay, Delay, Delay...settle out of court.

[Anuj Prateek]

Does anyone have any experience with turning 3D CAD models into drawings acceptable for a patent application?


I have been part of 2-3 software related patents. Based on that limited experience, I would suggest hiring a lawyer.
We would not have been able to write the application the way lawyer did - specially claims part (which is important).
They converted all our architecture design/diagrams into drawings using there own software.

[Mark Hennebury]

Agreed. The ones I filed - years ago - were for another's inventions and in their names (I just adjusted the design slightly to improve manufacturability), and to the best of my knowledge never earned a dime. I guess the upside is that no one had to attempt enforcement?

Often inventions that seem to be the PERFECT solution to your problem, are just that. Your problem. No one else knows or cares.

Aside: I wonder what percentage of patents issued - forget those not issued - ever earn any money? ...I've never seen statistics.

Obviously there are no guarantees that you will make a penny. But what are the options? If you come up with an idea for a new/ improved gadget and start making it in your shop to sell, if it's any good at all, everyone else will just copy it; at least if you have a patent it shows who invented it and gives you a chance of protection. You can always sell the patents or license a larger company to use them, they would be better able to defend them, than an individual.

[John K Jordan]

Obviously there are no guarantees that you will make a penny. But what are the options? If you come up with an idea for a new/ improved gadget and start making it in your shop to sell, if it's any good at all, everyone else will just copy it; at least if you have a patent it shows who invented it and gives you a chance of protection. You can always sell the patents or license a larger company to use them, they would be better able to defend them, than an individual.

I know someone who invented something that was very useful to the woodturning world. She built a business out of making and selling them but never patented the design. Then someone copied/stole her design and is now in competition. She continues to develop new variations of the design and now patents every one before they are marketed!

The biggest problem with patenting is what the patent attorneys get paid to to eliminate - some other patent may exist that covers even a small part of your design and prevent it from being awarded a patent. Some of these can be obscure. We spent years on one patent refining and reducing the scope of the claims before getting approval from the patent office, and that was with the team of lawyers researching what was already out there. I met friend of the family who works as a patent examiner - he has some fascinating stories!

JKJ

[Mike Henderson]

Agreed. The ones I filed - years ago - were for another's inventions and in their names (I just adjusted the design slightly to improve manufacturability), and to the best of my knowledge never earned a dime. I guess the upside is that no one had to attempt enforcement?

Often inventions that seem to be the PERFECT solution to your problem, are just that. Your problem. No one else knows or cares.

Aside: I wonder what percentage of patents issued - forget those not issued - ever earn any money? ...I've never seen statistics.

In the communications industry (which I was a part of) it was important to have a lot of patents. When you entered negotiations with another company for a cross license agreement if you didn't have many patents, you would have to pay a fair amount of money to equalize the deal. If both of you have about the same number of active patents you're more likely to get a no-money deal. Some of the patents we had were about things that would probably never be used but we patented them anyway just to build up our patent portfolio.

It's not as simple as just counting patents but that was part of the negotiations.

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

I know someone who invented something that was very useful to the woodturning world. She built a business out of making and selling them but never patented the design. Then someone copied/stole her design and is now in competition. She continues to develop new variations of the design and now patents every one before they are marketed! JKJ

There are ways to protect your inventions but if you don't use any of them, you're essentially giving your design away to anyone who wants to use it. Without some legal protection, the law considers that you put your design into the public domain.

Mike

[Ole Anderson]

I filed for and got a patent in 1991, U.S. Patent 5,000,109 ( just missed that magic number). While I could have done the sketch, I let the attorney handle it. A patent is like a padlock, it keeps the honest people honest. But if you want to challenge someone who is ripping you off, you may spend more in attorney fees than you will ever recover. For me a simple letter from my attorney to a competitor resulted in an informal licensing agreement and small royalties for over 10 years. BTW I revised the clamp from the patent sketch to use a cam/lever closing mechanism. All custom aluminum extrusions. Sold the company ten years later, new owner let it die. Sad for me.

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[Jay Rasmussen]

Obviously there are no guarantees that you will make a penny. But what are the options? If you come up with an idea for a new/ improved gadget and start making it in your shop to sell, if it's any good at all, everyone else will just copy it; at least if you have a patent it shows who invented it and gives you a chance of protection. You can always sell the patents or license a larger company to use them, they would be better able to defend them, than an individual.

Hi Mark,
I’ll share my story. I came up with a device that is an accessory for another product. Went through the prototype process, polled several folks I know that use the same device and asked what their solution was to solve this problem. None were very good in my opinion so I went forward. Spent about $12K investing in some metal working equipment to put in my garage. I built an injection mold and ran some parts at a local molder. That was 16 years ago, today I’ve sold 40,000 of them. No big money but fun.

I was awarded a Provisional patent (Pat Pending). Thought I would go for a design patent but after lots of research, like the other folks have stated – you need a lot of cash to defend one. When I did mine a provisional patent will protect you for 1 year, don’t know if that still true. A good way to start, I think it was less than $500.00. No one has tried to knock it off yet.

My wife thought I was a little crazy but my little investment has paid for itself many times over with no patent.

I can probably help you on the drawing side, send me an email if you are interested.
Jay

[Mark Hennebury]

I filed for and got a patent in 1991, U.S. Patent 5,000,109 ( just missed that magic number). While I could have done the sketch, I let the attorney handle it. A patent is like a padlock, it keeps the honest people honest. But if you want to challenge someone who is ripping you off, you may spend more in attorney fees than you will ever recover. For me a simple letter from my attorney to a competitor resulted in an informal licensing agreement and small royalties for over 10 years. BTW I revised the clamp from the patent sketch to use a cam/lever closing mechanism. All custom aluminum extrusions. Sold the company ten years later, new owner let it die. Sad for me.

452571

Thanks Ole, that's all good info.

[Mark Hennebury]

Hi Mark,
I’ll share my story. I came up with a device that is an accessory for another product. Went through the prototype process, polled several folks I know that use the same device and asked what their solution was to solve this problem. None were very good in my opinion so I went forward. Spent about $12K investing in some metal working equipment to put in my garage. I built an injection mold and ran some parts at a local molder. That was 16 years ago, today I’ve sold 40,000 of them. No big money but fun.

I was awarded a Provisional patent (Pat Pending). Thought I would go for a design patent but after lots of research, like the other folks have stated – you need a lot of cash to defend one. When I did mine a provisional patent will protect you for 1 year, don’t know if that still true. A good way to start, I think it was less than $500.00. No one has tried to knock it off yet.

My wife thought I was a little crazy but my little investment has paid for itself many times over with no patent.

I can probably help you on the drawing side, send me an email if you are interested.
Jay

Thanks Jay, I will look into the provisional patent. Sounds like it worked out well for you. And thanks for the offer, I may take you up on it.

[Mel Fulks]

Ole, Yes it’s sad they let go of it. But maybe LEGO wil pick it up...might be easier than getting kids to pick up LEGOS !

[Bradley Gray]

No information about filing for a patent but I have read about the Creative Commons alternative.

here is a short video by creator Lawrence Lessig:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMdsLGmmVkU

[George Wall]

Thanks Jay, I will look into the provisional patent. Sounds like it worked out well for you. And thanks for the offer, I may take you up on it.
A provisional patent application is simply a placeholder; it is not even examined by the patent office. You could file a provisional for a perpetual motion machine or a peanut butter sandwich and nobody would notice. By itself, it has no ability to exclude copycat inventions unless you turn it into a full patent. You have one year to convert the provisional to a full patent application, or the provisional simply expires.

The benefit of the provisional is that it gives you a filing date, which is critical for establishing the date of invention. While the US is still technically "first to invent" rather than "first to file", the filing date is often used as the invention date unless you have really solid evidence to establish an earlier invention date, which is not easy.

[Mark Hennebury]

No information about filing for a patent but I have read about the Creative Commons alternative.

here is a short video by creator Lawrence Lessig:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMdsLGmmVkU

I watched the video, seems like an interesting variation; mostly geared towards the music industry, although that video was from 2010 ( i think) might be interesting to see where it is today. Thanks for posting it.

[Mark Hennebury]

A provisional patent application is simply a placeholder; it is not even examined by the patent office. You could file a provisional for a perpetual motion machine or a peanut butter sandwich and nobody would notice. By itself, it has no ability to exclude copycat inventions unless you turn it into a full patent. You have one year to convert the provisional to a full patent application, or the provisional simply expires.

The benefit of the provisional is that it gives you a filing date, which is critical for establishing the date of invention. While the US is still technically "first to invent" rather than "first to file", the filing date is often used as the invention date unless you have really solid evidence to establish an earlier invention date, which is not easy.

A provisional patent might help in securing your filing date and give you the time to prepare a patent application without letting someone jump ahead of you. Lot's to consider. thanks.