Seeking advice: Sharpening kit and chisels

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

Hi everyone, I'm new here (first post) . I know this has come up a lot but I figured it's better to ask advice before I blow though my savings than after. So here it goes:

For about ten years now I've been dreaming about getting into real woodworking, in a few months I'll be out of medschool and finaly have a bit of time (and money) before residency to try and build a kit.

For sharpening I was looking at the Dia-flat 95 and shapton ceramic stones (korumako) grits 1000, 5000 and 12000. I definetly want a honing guide. I was thinking of buying the Lie Nielsen honing guide. Starting out I will need to sharpen lie Nielsen bench planes, and Veritas pmv-11 chisels. Moving forward I would (possible) in the future add Veritas skew block plane, large router and medium shoulder planes. I also plan on one fishtail chisel (blue spruce), and mortise chisels (Ray Iles). I realize the honing guide won't be usable with Veritas skewed planes.

TL: DR

1. What do you guys think of the sharpening stones as a set?
2. What do you think of the DMT DIA-FLAT 95?
3. Will the LN honing guide handle Veritas chisels? Blue Spruce Fishtail chisels? Ray Iles Mortise Chisels? If not is there a good alternative to considure?
4. What fishtail chisel size should I get?

All advise will be very welcome. At this stage I would rather not give up using a honing guide.

[Jerome Andrieux]

1. What do you guys think of the sharpening stones as a set?
2. What do you think of the DMT DIA-FLAT 95?
3. Will the LN honing guide handle Veritas chisels? Blue Spruce Fishtail chisels? Ray Iles Mortise Chisels? If not is there a good alternative to considure?
4. What fishtail chisel size should I get?


TLDR : you chose the "best in class" options, so you can’t really go wrong but it will be expensive.

1. 1000 shapton can be replaced with a good 1000-1200 diamond stone.
2. The dia flat is coarse and your 1000-1200 diamond stone will flatten your 5000 / 12000 shapton just fine.
3. Yes for veritas, no for the rest, because of thickness or lack of parallel flat sides. No alternative to recommend.
4. It depends on your dovetails size. 3/8 should be small enough for most cases.

I would recommend you only buy a good bench chisels set. Mortise and fishtail chisel are specialty tools. Less is more :)

I cut the dovetail shape on a regular 10mm chisel, which makes it easy to set on a guide. It doesn’t see much action and is rarely sharpened anyway.

[William Fretwell]

Welcome Assaf. I know lots of Doctors, they have little time for anything! One surgeon manages a painting now and then!

You can do some woodwork with very little so go slow and see how much time you have. I started many years back with one jack plane, two saws, a cheap set of chisels and a double sided stone. After many years of collecting and getting a decent bench, table saw etc all was stolen from a storage unit during a move (everything!). So I have some experience starting again!

Diamond stones wear out, we all have them but water stones give a fresh surface and last a long time (don’t buy double sided). A CBN plate will flatten your stones just fine, they are pricey however.

Having a huge variety of chisels I appreciate the benefits of each but a simple set will do a lot, not too thick for detail work. Ray Isles mortice chisels are productive, cutting the sides as they go but are rather specialised.

Look at simple bow saws, they do a lot and encourage your skill. A dovetail saw and you are good to go.

Yes sharpen with a guide for planes, chisels are less fussy.

Build a simple heavy bench, search on Moravian here, it’s moveable and efficient. You are young and will be moving!

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I purchased a lot of things that I do not use (or that sat for years before I used them) based on the projects I was working. I have heard people say that I should purchase the tools that I need for the job that I want to do when I need them.

I own the Ray Iles Mortise Chisels, I like mine, but I rarely cut mortises. I have never attempted to sharpen them using a guide so I cannot comment on how that works. But I guess I am taking things out of order.



For sharpening I was looking at the Dia-flat 95 and shapton ceramic stones (korumako) grits 1000, 5000 and 12000.

I have owned and used the DIA stones to flatten my water stones for years, I like them.

Sounds like a decent range for the Shapton stones. I could send you lots to read about the Shapton stones, not sure I should just fill this thread with pages of information.... :eek:

I am curious why the PRO stones and not the glass stones. I own both. I purchased some PRO stones to learn to sharpen kitchen knives and the logic was a larger stone should last longer.

The Shapton Pro stones are Harder and release abrasive slower, they are formulated for more basic alloy blends of stainless and carbon steel. The Pro line is special in that each stone is formulated for a specific task that I first found on the jende industries web site. No idea if it is still there. (https://jendeindustries.wpcomstaging.com/2009/10/21/shapton-stone-tutorial-part-1-introduction-to-the-shapton-pro-and-glass-series/ and https://jendeindustries.wpcomstaging.com/2010/05/06/shapton-traditional-hc-and-hr-series-glass-stones-aka-pro-jp-and-glass-stones/)
The Glass series is considered Softer and releases abrasive faster allowing them to cut faster. This is where the density difference comes in, the Glass stones are more dense than the pro stones making them seem harder yet still called "softer" because they wear quicker.
The Glass stones don't have the same specific stone to steel formulation as the Pro's, they are simply made to be able to sharpen very hard and highly alloyed steels. These stones were originally made for the specific purpose of sharpening high end wood working chisels and that is why they are hard and promote flatness so much in the advertising. There is a recommendation chart for different Glass stones that I can send you if you want (if you do not find one online).
GlassStones were developed specifically for the US market based upon experience gained from the Pro Series. GlassStones differ in that they cut more quickly in the tougher steels such as cryogenically treated A2 common in Lie-Nielsen and Hock and Veritas blades. They are also engineered to be more economical by employing a glass base.
On the other hand, the Shapton Pro Stones feel more like traditional waterstones in use and are more tolerant of coarse flattening plates like the DMT DiaFlat-95 product which produces excellent results.
So, I purchased my PRO stones for my knives and my Glass stones for my wood working tools. And then I just use whatever I have near by; well, mostly. I own a lot of stones.

If you want to sharpen coarser than the 1000 stone, you can always use sandpaper on glass (scary sharp), that is how I started sharpening. I don't think that I have ever used a guide on a water stone, I would need to think about that. I used the guide often with sand paper and the larger surface. I think lots of people use guides on water stones though.

This is what my notes say about the PRO stones.

The Orange #1000 is a very popular intermediate stone. Great for moderate stock removal. This stone is good to use prior to polishing. This stone is labeled Coarse/Medium, and is formulated for stainless steel.

The Wine #5000 stone is the first polishing stone. It can still remove some metal but is primary a polishing stone. It is more dense than most stones. This stone is pivotal in the Shapton pro series. It is a dense stone that produces the first mirror finish. It sets the stage for the finer polishing stones while producing an excellent edge for most conventional knives and tools. Some people do not like the feel of the 5000 PRO. It was one of my first stones for knife sharpening and I have sharpened a lot of blades on it.


The Yellow #12000 was originally designed for fine woodworking tools requiring an extremely fine edge. It will leave a bright mirror finish. It is a serious polishing stone. This stone takes everything even further. It is a “softer” stone and really puts a wonderful finish on an edge. (The Japanese version of this stone is the 12K. The only difference seems to be the packaging.

I own the 16000 Glass stone and I love it, but I would probably not get both the 12K PRO and the 16K Glass. The 16K glass is not listed as great for chisels, but I used it well for years before I read that.

If you live near someone who can let you try them, that would be preferred.

I like to put a hollow grind on my tools (Tormek is what i use) and then free hand the blade. It is much easier to free hand with a hollow grind on the edge. I have a friend who comes over a couple of times a year and we touch up his edges so that he can then go home and free hand to keep them there.



I definitely want a honing guide. I was thinking of buying the Lie Nielsen honing guide.

I have owned the Lee valley guide for years. I expect the Lie Nielsen guide will server you well.





Starting out I will need to sharpen lie Nielsen bench planes, and Veritas pmv-11 chisels. Moving forward I would (possible) in the future add Veritas skew block plane, large router and medium shoulder planes. I also plan on one fishtail chisel (blue spruce), and mortise chisels (Ray Iles). I realize the honing guide won't be usable with Veritas skewed planes.

I really like my Veritas PMV-11 chisels. You will likely be happy with your Veritas or Lie Nielsen planes. Blue Spruce makes great stuff.

The chisels I purchased as a set. My planes I purchased mostly one at a time. What will you do with them? Use that to determine what to purchase first. On the plus side, everything you mention here is easy to resell if you find that you will not use them. Will you start by dimensioning wood wood by hand? If so, do you need a #40 scrub plane? Have you ever dimensioned wood by hand? Will you purchase already dimensioned wood? I still remember that first block of wood that I figured I wanted to make flat. Wow, what a lot of work. And I needed a work bench to be able to do it.

If you just want to clean up some joints, then you do not need a bunch of hand planes, perhaps just a few.

I own a butt mortise plane that I use for hinges (https://www.lie-nielsen.com/products/butt-mortise-plane) but I can probably as easily use a router plane. I only recently purchased a router plane so I have not used it for hinges yet.

I still do not own a fishtail chisel. I use my smaller chisels to get into corners.

What do I not see here?

Saw. I don't know if you need to break-down wood, if you have a table saw, a chop saw, or what. If you want to do dovetails or mortises, for certain you need a saw to do that. I own some high end saws, but the Lee Valley is a great saw for the money, I like mine.

I do not see a marking knife. I own one from Blue Spruce (very nice) and some from Lee Valley (not as nice, but way cheaper and I use them all the time).

Do you have a square? How will you mark dovetails if you want to cut them? I use a cheap gauge from Lee Valley, but you can use lots of things to do it.

If you want to ponder the sharpening stones, I started with sand paper on a granite block. Not expensive, but long term, stones are cheaper. I did not try power assist for sharpening until I needed to sharpen a large batch of chisels, and it was taking forever to do it by hand. New chisels from Lee Valley will not take long to get going, I was tuning old chisels in bad shape.

After I got my Tormek, I was able to set my angles and I mostly stopped using my angle guide. I still use sand paper to flatten backs that are not great from the start (old blades, not new Lie Nielsen of Lee Valley). I was given a new plane from a different company and that was really bad on the back.

Hope this helps at least a little.

And you do not list your location, if you are near the center of Ohio, I have some stuff that you can try!

Andrew

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

Thank you both, I've been on this site as a visitor for more than a year, so it is a pleasure to finally participate (and even more so to get help). I feel like I need to clarify a few things:

1) I live in Israel, a country with no natural forestry and almost no interest in woodworking - this means everything needs to be imported and takes weeks to get here. I usually don't get to test things at a store or with woodworking friends. My mindset is to buy something once and not "upgrade" as I go forward.

2) In Israel, after med school, in order to get into a residency you need to complete an internship year. only after that year do I get a my license. That year is usually more relaxed (50 hour work week). That is what I meant by finally having time. in a year an a half I will start a residency and wont see home for the next 6 years. I really wanted to build a Roubo Split top workbench as my first project so that I would have the space to do my second project.

3) The list I posted isn't what I'm buying right now - I posted the various items to learn more for futureproofing. I completely agree that I can do a little with a lot. in fact what I am buying right now are 2 chisels (3/4 and 1/4) ,1 fishtail chisel for the half blind dovetails, and a L-N Low angle Jack plane. what I want to do is make sure I can get the best edge on the tools I have, that is a place I feel is worth spending the money.

Jerome mentioned that the DIA-FLAT 95 is too coarse for the Shaptons I want - should I order an atoma 400? I've seen them mentioned online but haven't seen any information on there flatness (which is the reason I was inclined to go with the DMT DIA-FLAT).

cheers,
Assaf

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

LOL I think I was writing my reply to the other contributors while you wrote yours. I really appreciate the offer but sadly its been 5-6 years since I've been in Ohio and I don't see flying internationally an option in the next year or so :( . I didn't mention the gear you listed because I have already taken care of it. I have loaner hand saws and a circular saw. I just bought the basic Veritas marking knife and a Veritas marking gauge. I own a starett 6" combination square and a 4" 6" and 12" machinist squares as well as a 50" straight edge. I have a Shinwa sliding bevel gauges. I managed to get clamps as a loan for the project too.

I just updated my profile - couldn't figure out how to add the info from my phone.
I really do appreciate the input I've been getting.

Assaf

[Warren Mickley]

. My mindset is to buy something once and not "upgrade" as I go forward.


I think the biggest mistake you make is the notion that you can discern the best tools and not have to upgrade.

I have been doing hand woodworking seriously for over fifty years. I have only one of the tools on your list, the LV router plane, which I won in a planing contest in 2006. I think for a beginner a plow plane and a moving fillister are a higher priority than a router.

The other tools and stones on your list do not impress me. So I recommend going easy and not assume you are making a lifetime purchase.

For a young doctor, I would expect you to have the facility with your hands to avoid a sharpening jig. If you were 65 and had never done any hand work, I might think differently.

Welcome to the forum!

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

The other tools and stones on your list do not impress me. So I recommend going easy and not assume you are making a lifetime purchase.

For a young doctor, I would expect you to have the facility with your hands to avoid a sharpening jig. If you were 65 and had never done any hand work, I might think differently.

Welcome to the forum!


thanks for the input, honestly I'm trying to get into woodworking, definitely not trying to impress anyone! the reason I am gung ho on a sharpening jig is the lack of experience - I don't know anyone who can let me experience a truly sharp tool - I figured the best way to develop a high standard is to experience one. also - not a doctor (3 months and a whole bunch of tests left to go for that :) )

[Aaron Rosenthal]

Assaf, here’s a different idea to think about.
I agree with lots of your ideas but in Israel there’s a lot of used, older European equipment hand tools. Many of the older people came as skilled tradesmen and their tools are available if you look for them - especially on some of the moshavim.
They aren’t shiney and metal; many are the wooden planes and gauges, bow saws and things like that, but they’ll be cheaper and faster to get.
Ask some of your grandfathers aged friends.

[Jim Koepke]

Hi Assaf and welcome to the Creek.

My preferences are on the other end of the spectrum from yours. Not much of my basic tooling was purchased new.

For me, restoring old tools is as much fun as using them, sometimes more fun.

What is or isn't the best tool depends on the person using the tool. It all comes down to personal taste and what we are doing. What works best will likely be different for you, me and everyone else.

It appears you have done a lot of reading and made your choices from what you have learned from other people's experience. That is as good a starting point as any.

Otherwise you will find almost everyone enjoys spending other people's money.

Enjoy your free time while you can. Throughout life there just doesn't seem to be enough free time. Even now in retirement my free time passes too fast.

jtk

[William Fretwell]

Yes Assaf, the buy it once, properly, is something most of us aspire to. For sharpening this clearly works as it will be used very frequently and impacts the quality and ease of work. The low angle jack definitely has uses but the chip breaker planes are a necessity. The number 4 with its short footprint will follow wood variations very well and properly tuned will put the best finish possible on your work.

The Roubo is an ‘in fashion’ workbench with limitations, not least is moving it! Do take a good look at Ken’s Moravian design on here. The classic Scandinavian bench need not be huge but is very versatile. They were built by the Danes for Scandinavians who then built furniture. This was THE bench at schools in Europe many years ago and the gorgeous furniture school in British Columbia I visited has the students build one as their first project.

Much as we all like to get tools right the first time, it is a journey and your preferences will change and as many discover that ‘essential’ tool is next to useless.

Building furniture in a ‘treeless’ country will make you a novelty, but no doubt have challenges. Finding a few reliable suppliers is essential.

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

Thank you,

I have found some suppliers, its just... expensive - Maple is almost $11 a board foot (no grades here either)!
I did buy a used Stanley no. 4 1/2 (made in the UK) when I managed to find one for sale that I could see before I bought it (it needs sharpening).
The Roubo I am trying to build is a much shorter bench - 64" - due to space constrictions and it will be knock down. I think I could move it in pieces in a car...
what limitations do you feel are in the Roubo design?

[Jack Frederick]

Welcome aboard and congratulations on finishing one part of your education;) I recently watched the Rob Cosman videos and purchased the Trend Diamond stone and the 16k Shapton. I am using my 4 & 8k water stones but will over time get the intermediate Shaptons to replace them. I have found his method effective for me and would suggest watching the videos. My planes and chisels are LN. I am using the RC method on the new chisels with very good affect. I also use the LN honing gauge and very much appreciate the consistency it offers me.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

LOL I think I was writing my reply to the other contributors while you wrote yours. I really appreciate the offer but sadly its been 5-6 years since I've been in Ohio and I don't see flying internationally an option in the next year or so :( . I didn't mention the gear you listed because I have already taken care of it. I have loaner hand saws and a circular saw. I just bought the basic Veritas marking knife and a Veritas marking gauge. I own a starett 6" combination square and a 4" 6" and 12" machinist squares as well as a 50" straight edge. I have a Shinwa sliding bevel gauges. I managed to get clamps as a loan for the project too.

I just updated my profile - couldn't figure out how to add the info from my phone.
I really do appreciate the input I've been getting.

Assaf

It has been a long time since I have been in Isreal; over 20 years! Fun times. I made a snowman near Jerusalem, and before that it was a sand storm.

If you make it back to Ohio, let me know.

[William Fretwell]

The typical Roubo legs are permanently attached, it’s a feature of the design. The front vise is a disaster, it has very little down space for a board when cutting dovetails or anything else. The front vise hardware is large, cumbersome and often expensive. The end vise is just a travelling dog, often just a round peg. The dog holes are often round. It is designed to look impressive but the functionality is limited.

[Dean Arthur]

Sharpening is a journey so you'll ultimately have to go on yours. That said, after several different sharpening setups I ended up with that exact shapton set - 1k, 5k, 12k. Love it.

I'm sure the DMT flattening plate is great, but I would use an Atoma 400.

A CBN wheel on a grinder is your ultimate 'coarse' stone. Life is too short to re-bevel modern steels on a coarse stone.

Just get the Lie Nielsen honing guide. You 'saved' $160 on getting the Atoma instead of the DMT flattening plate so might as well :)

[David Bassett]

Hi everyone, I'm new here (first post) ...

Welcome!

I was thinking, from the length of the thread, you'd already gotten every possible opinion, but skimming through it I see several factions haven't been heard from and some of the length comes from a detour into benches. Welcome to the Creek. TMI is our specialty. :)




...

For sharpening I was looking at the Dia-flat 95 and shapton ceramic stones (korumako) grits 1000, 5000 and 12000. I definetly want a honing guide. I was thinking of buying the Lie Nielsen honing guide. Starting out I will need to sharpen lie Nielsen bench planes, and Veritas pmv-11 chisels. Moving forward I would (possible) in the future add Veritas skew block plane, large router and medium shoulder planes. I also plan on one fishtail chisel (blue spruce), and mortise chisels (Ray Iles). I realize the honing guide won't be usable with Veritas skewed planes.

TL: DR

1. What do you guys think of the sharpening stones as a set?
2. What do you think of the DMT DIA-FLAT 95?
3. Will the LN honing guide handle Veritas chisels? Blue Spruce Fishtail chisels? Ray Iles Mortise Chisels? If not is there a good alternative to considure?
4. What fishtail chisel size should I get?

All advise will be very welcome. At this stage I would rather not give up using a honing guide.

The Shapton Korumako stones are labeled Shapton Pro in the US, and often abbreviated SP on forums, and have been pretty widely reviewed under the Pro name. I'm sure you would be satisfied with them. Certainly you can do worse! Much worse. I don't recall any opinion on the 12K stone, I expect it'd work fine for you. I can note a big proponent of the SP stones is Christopher Schwarz and he recommends the 1000, 5000, & 8000. I have soaking stones, which work well, but I'm often tempted to try the SP stones since they are true splash & go.

Given US pricing, I don't like the DIA-FLAT at all. I'm sure it's wonderful, but I feel it is a very poor value. As woodworkers we need a different version flat than say a precision machinist and the Dia-Sharp plates, the Atoma plates, and even (often, but not always!,) the cheap no name diamond plates are enough for our purposes flattening stones. (Side note on CBN. It tends to be more expensive than diamond here and except for grinding wheels where significant heat is generated diamond works as well or better.)

I know the LN honing guide is well respected. However no guide will hold every possible blade and instead of chasing the next jig or adapter for each new tool I chose to learn to sharpen to freehand. It is a process and I'm far from perfect, but if you set your expectations correctly it doesn't get too frustrating. (I think "less dull", instead of "sharp", and it really helps both my outlook and my performance.) Chisels are pretty easy, plane irons with camber are a little more challenging, and knife blades & carving gouges with their complex curves are an even bigger one. But even the hard cases are pretty easy to get less dull. :)

I too keep thinking a fishtail chisel would be good to have. I haven't actually needed one enough to get around to buying one. I think if I ever do I'd give Pfeil a close look. I'd guess you have better access to European brands we don't regularly see here in the US many of which might offer you better value. Not that Blue Spruce aren't works of art!

Good luck & have fun!

[Dean Arthur]

I use the LN honing guide as a jig to hollow grind my plane irons (and occasionally chisels). Ian Kirby published a book called "Sharpening with Waterstones" and had this tool rest design in it. Setup blocks under the grinder let me set the property distance for the 25 degree primary bevel and off you go - perfect every time. The subtle thing you can often miss is how hard modern steels (like pm-v11 or a2) are. Establishing a bevel on an old Stanley plane iron isn't really that much work. But with LV or LN irons it's another story. In my opinion a grinder is almost a necessity with these modern irons if you value your time at all.

Have to learn to freehand, of course. It's quick, effective and eventually second nature. And for a lot of tools the only way to really get them sharpened. But for establishing primary bevel or dialing in the angle of bevel up plane blades the LN guide is certainly a gem and, considering how much it gets used, a good value.

https://f001.backblazeb2.com/file/dc-share/20210215_151316.jpg


https://f001.backblazeb2.com/file/dc-share/20210215_151335.jpg

https://f001.backblazeb2.com/file/dc-share/20210215_151357.jpg

[Jim Matthews]

I use an Atoma 400 to flatten my stones (both oil stones and water stones) cleaning it with Simple Green and a brass wire brush.

Be advised that the modern sintered steels like PM V-11 can "hold" a wire edge that only stropping or power buffing can remove.

Not mentioned in your pick list is handle style.
If possible, taking an introduction course (I know, *more school*) can offer a chance to try things out.

While many top shelf tools hold value - there are many that sound useful but might just gather dust.

I regularly refer to Derek Cohen's excellent compendium for us and it's worthwhile to have a browse as he's documented both his struggle and success.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/

[Tim Best]

the reason I am gung ho on a sharpening jig is the lack of experience - I don't know anyone who can let me experience a truly sharp tool - I figured the best way to develop a high standard is to experience one.

Hi Assaf,

You have received some great advice from some awesome, experienced wood workers--I will add my .02 cents as a relative newcomer that is neither. I like water stones for free hand sharpening.

Stones and honing guides:
I started out with an eclipse-style honing guide, but quickly ditched it. There was nothing wrong with it, but it did not play nicely with my water stones and it was kind of "fiddly." For my antique Stanley irons, I sharpen the entire bevel (3000, 6000, 8000). 8000 is a King Ice Bear (I like it a lot. The other two are no-name stones, but they do a great job). After the 8000, I strop for a spectacular edge. I flatten the water stones on a 400 grit diamond stone that I picked up somewhere.

My point is that you can get a great edge on 01 steel without a Shapton or a honing guide. Bigger point: Get a piece of horse butt leather for a strop and some honing compound. It will take your edge to another level. (Coincidentally, stropping will also occasionally cause bald spots to appear on your forearm:))

I fully understand your point about developing a high standard of sharp and actually knowing what sharp is/feels like. I cannot sharpen as fast or as well as some, but I can get the sharpness I need for the task at hand. Trust me, you will know what sharp(er) is every time you sharpen and take your chisels/edge tools to the wood. Initially, when in doubt, freed hand a chisel and pare some end grain. Rinse and repeat for a bit and it becomes obvious pretty quickly. Get a honing guide and be prepared to outgrow it pretty fast.

Chisels:

Along with the ones you mention, I would suggest buying some cheap ones with wood handles. They are fun to experiment with when learning how to sharpen. Also, if you butcher the cheap ones, no harm is really done. Cheap also make great candidates for "unicorning."

I am sure Veritas and Blue Spruce are great chisels, but I do not own any...yet. I recently purchase a couple of Narex Richter chisels. I really like them. They sharpen well and hold an edge. I also like the handles (some do not, but they fit my hand well.) Narex may be easier to get in Israel because they are of European origin. At the very least, they may get to you faster than the others you mentioned. Main point: No matter what you end up with, get one from each manufacturer (LN, LV, Narex, antique vintage, etc.). You will probably stumble on something you really like and things you do not.

Last thing: I really enjoy using my router plane. Mine is a Record 071. I had the opportunity to work/play with a Veritas router plane a few weeks ago. It is a great tool with some obvious refinements to the traditional Stanley/Record pattern. That said, I would not trade mine for the LV version.

Ok, really last thing...mazel tov!

Tim

[George Wall]

I found the Lie Nielsen honing guide helpful for sharpening plane irons when I was trying to figure out the whole sharpening thing. However, I quickly learned to ditch it when doing chisels in favor of freehand sharpening. Within reason, the angle at which you sharpen chisels does not make a huge difference; being off by a couple or few degrees from 25 or 30 is not that big of a deal. You'll find yourself getting more consistent as you gain practice. I still use my guide for bevel up planes and my fine smoothing plane blade.

I like diamond stones; no flattening required. But if you already have the water stones, they'll do fine. One of these days I will try oilstones because they seem really cool.

[Jim Koepke]

The great thing about inexpensive chisels is there is no remorse when experimenting.

This chisel cost me a buck or two. It was given a 90º bevel as seen on a Youtube video:

452432

It works like a one tooth float.

Others have made fistail chisels. A pair eacy of my spare 1/2" & 1/4" chisels were given skewed edges for use when paring, especially half blind dovetails.

A one inch chisel purchase in a lot of chisels came with a rounded edge. It works great for cutting finger catches on sliding box tops and can also cut a flute with a little care.

Lots of uses for spare chisels including a set for working on dirty wood or out side.

jtk

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

Thank you everyone for the Valuable input (capital V intended)!

I spent 6 months as a visitor before I decided to pay to be a contributor - and it was totally worth it. the support I've gotten here has been very helpful. I think I will end up using the Atoma 400 Diamond Stone instead of the DMT DIA-FLAT.


It has been a long time since I have been in Isreal; over 20 years! Fun times. I made a snowman near Jerusalem, and before that it was a sand storm.

If you make it back to Ohio, let me know.

Andrew - you came at a crazy time. I don't live in Jerusalem, but I can count only a relatively few times where we had decent snow over there. When I get back Stateside I will definitely see who I get to meet.


I use an Atoma 400 to flatten my stones (both oil stones and water stones) cleaning it with Simple Green and a brass wire brush.

Be advised that the modern sintered steels like PM V-11 can "hold" a wire edge that only stropping or power buffing can remove.

Not mentioned in your pick list is handle style.
If possible, taking an introduction course (I know, *more school*) can offer a chance to try things out.

While many top shelf tools hold value - there are many that sound useful but might just gather dust.

I regularly refer to Derek Cohen's excellent compendium for us and it's worthwhile to have a browse as he's documented both his struggle and success.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/


Jim - I am a student. I can tell you that *School* wont ever end for me. you won't here me give a lot of medical advice (especially at this point of my career) but here is one: if you ever meet a doctor who thinks they are is done learning - find another one!
we do have a couple of schools, but they are expensive and my work doesn't give me that kind of flexibility.
I actually wanted to ask about handle style (specifically because Blue Spruce offers so many) but felt I already overloaded the thread with requests.

I am familiar with Derek Cohen's Blog for a while now. His continued presence here was part of why I joined the Creek!

I would love for your input on handle shape, as I have virtually no experience on the matter - I know that Derek seems to like long handles in general. My intuition says that paring chisels that shouldn't be hit by a mallet would do better with the round ones, better feedback from the base of the hand?

[Jim Koepke]

I actually wanted to ask about handle style (specifically because Blue Spruce offers so many) but felt I already overloaded the thread with requests.

I am familiar with Derek Cohen's Blog for a while now. His continued presence here was part of why I joined the Creek!

I would love for your input on handle shape, as I have virtually no experience on the matter - I know that Derek seems to like long handles in general. My intuition says that paring chisels that shouldn't be hit by a mallet would do better with the round ones, better feedback from the base of the hand?

Don't worry about overloading the thread. Future readers will treasure the information. One of my reasons for prefering socket chisels is the ease of fitting a handle:

452477

A few handle designs were blended to make these to fit my hands and to be comfortable using with an old injury to my right hand. These and slight variations of these work well for me.

Anyone interested in the 'perfect' handle may want to find a lathe and turn their own.

jtk

[Scott Winners]

Doc, I am confident you will pass all your tests based on your responses in this thread; so maybe early congratulations, but as a 24 year RN I can usually tell who is and isn't going to make it. Congratulations.

One question I haven't seen asked is what wood working is it that you want do? "I am not sure yet" is a perfectly fine and appropriate answer. The internet is awash with information for beginners. Flooded. Overwhelmingly saturated. I was where you are now about 2, 2.5 years ago, just information overload and no wood working getting done.

I personally settled on a book by Paul Sellers. Here is some projects, with pictures and step by step instructions, and here is an illustrated list of all the tools you need to make all the projects in this book. By choosing that path (may not work for you) I was able to focus my tool purchases and start making stuff. Now I design my own stuff and have quite a few other tools. Paul also has about a gazillion hours of video on youtube if you get stuck. His is not the only path to critical mass, but it was effective for me.

When you buy from Lee Valley or Lie-Neilsen, your tools are going to have significant resale value. If you don't like them you will be able to get most of your money back out, minus shipping.

I can't help with water stones. My shop gets below freezing with depressing regularity, so water stones aren't an option for me. My honing guides work fine on my diamond stones.

I do have both a generic Eclipse style honing guide, and a L-N honing guide with a couple extra sets of guide blocks. If you have the money, skip the generic Eclipse style, start with the LN and be prepared to add on other stuff later. I thought I was able to freehand my chisels once upon a time, but I ended up confessing and repenting of that blindspot in a thread here. Note Bene: If you have the long jaws for your LN honing guide a (regular, flat) Veritas spoke shave iron will snuggle right in there no problem.

FWIW my sharpening regimen starts with a powered grinding wheel for changing bevels or serious clean up, and then 300 grit and 600 grit before I get to 1000. If you are sure you will never drop an iron onto a concrete floor you can probably get away with a 1000 stone as your "coarse." I am kinda thinking about picking up an Atoma at 240 grit for those times when 300 isn't coarse enough but I don't want to go to the grinder. No experience with water stones.

My honest answer to your item three is I have no idea. I have the L-N guide, but no chisels by any of Ray Isles, Blue Spruce or Veritas. All my chisels are either L-N or vintage with parallel sides that work in the LN guide.

For item four, I don't own one. Dovetails are still some kind of sorcery to me. I mean I can make the regular ones good enough to be stout, but I lay mine out big enough to get into the corners with a regular chisel. My inclination would be to get one fairly small one and keep it wicked sharp. In a wooden box of it's own with a velvet lining to protect it between uses. Maybe a mysterious symbol carved into the lid. Wax seal. Incense.

You must have some kind of plan if you are going for a skew block plane and a medium shoulder plane and a full sized router plane right off the starting line. I have a medium shoulder plane for making those fussy joints at the bow of lapstrake boats where each strake comes into the cutwater named after I don't remember what. Skew planes require precision you are capable of, but a high maintenance path if there is some other tool that can do the job.

Look forward to hearing what your goals are.

You will need a bench. It won't be your last bench. Just figure out what bench you need to meet your current needs, and build it as a means to finishing current and foreseen projects knowing in advance you will be building another work bench in the future.

[Jim Matthews]

I would love for your input on handle shape, as I have virtually no experience on the matter - I know that Derek seems to like long handles in general. My intuition says that paring chisels that shouldn't be hit by a mallet would do better with the round ones, better feedback from the base of the hand?

I'm older, and my hands show signs of arthritis.
My choice for handles is based mainly on this.

In my opinion, it's down to preference and there's (unfortunately) no way to know without handling one.

I think the simpler designs are better.

If grip is a concern, the finish of plain wooden handles may be modified. Plasticized, acrylic infused or polymer handles will always be smooth - and slippery.

I just purchased a new set of Narex "stubby" chisels for rough use on my bench because of the doorknob shaped wooden handles.

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?288445-Quick-review-Narex-quot-stubbies-quot&p=3085712&highlight=

[Tom M King]

Thank you,

I have found some suppliers, its just... expensive - Maple is almost $11 a board foot (no grades here either)!
I did buy a used Stanley no. 4 1/2 (made in the UK) when I managed to find one for sale that I could see before I bought it (it needs sharpening).
The Roubo I am trying to build is a much shorter bench - 64" - due to space constrictions and it will be knock down. I think I could move it in pieces in a car...
what limitations do you feel are in the Roubo design?

If you will send me the plane iron, and chipbreaker to your 4-1/2, I'll sharpen, and prepare them for you, and send them back to you for no charge, including shipping. That way, you can experience what a sharp tool can do. If interested, PM me, and I'll give you my shipping address.

[Kevin Adams]

If you will send me the plane iron, and chipbreaker to your 4-1/2, I'll sharpen, and prepare them for you, and send them back to you for no charge, including shipping. That way, you can experience what a sharp tool can do. If interested, PM me, and I'll give you my shipping address.

What a great community this is and I mean community in the true sense! We learn from each other, support each other, and want the best for each other. You’re a good man, Tom.

Thanks.
Kevin

[Jeff Bartley]

The typical Roubo legs are permanently attached, it’s a feature of the design. The front vise is a disaster, it has very little down space for a board when cutting dovetails or anything else. The front vise hardware is large, cumbersome and often expensive. The end vise is just a travelling dog, often just a round peg. The dog holes are often round. It is designed to look impressive but the functionality is limited.

William, with respect, I will disagree with most of the above. There are so many different types of vises and so many ways to build a roubo style bench, generalized statements about functionality and cost do not apply.

In this discussion we have a new woodworker seeking advise (welcome Assaf!) and I don’t want him to get the wrong idea about a bench. It would be helpful to say that there are a hundred ways to hold work and a hundred ways to build a bench. What a bench needs is to be stable and unmovable under normal operations. Any big bench can do that.

To speak about the functionality of front vises I will say that the leg vise on my bench was built with a $40 screw from Lee Valley. It’s held small work up to full size exterior doors. Lined with leather it will not let go. My only regret is that I didn’t spring for the Benchcrafted hardware like I did for the wagon vise. At some point I plan to upgrade my front vise to the Benchcrafted leg vise with the criss-cross.

[Matt Lau]

What a great community this is and I mean community in the true sense! We learn from each other, support each other, and want the best for each other. You’re a good man, Tom.

Thanks.
Kevin


Yup. Hope all is well for everyone

[John Dougherty]

You will get little consensus because there's no "right way." You will be tempted to buy lots of gear without fully knowing when or even if you'll use it. So I would strongly recommended buying as you plan a project. One thing that will be true is that you will develop your own set of methods, which for whatever reason suit you personally. You'll discover that many tools you thought you would need are rarely or never used. So start small and go easy on the costs.

As far as sharpening goes, I use a really flat hard surface, granite or glass, to get chisels and plane blades ready for use, with coarse 80 or 120 grit wet dry paper. It's easy to maintain a bevel with a diamond or a water stone, finish with a strop. Make your own strop. Paul Sellers has a nice video about making a strop. As far as bench chisels go, I would suggest the Veritas O1s, or the Narex Richters (about half the price). The Veritas have no "lands" or flats between the tapers and the sides of the blades, so they slide into angles easily, eliminating the need for a fishtail. You probably only want one or two mortise chisels, and you can always add to your collection if you want to. A 5/16" or 1/4" are good and will probably see the most use unless you take up timber framing.