The gang that couldn't saw straight

[Bob Jones 5443]

Wow.

I need lots of practice. Today I marked several L-to-R pins on a scrap piece of poplar and set out to practice the cuts I did so poorly last time I worked on pins. Here's the end of the board after the cuts (including one R-to-L cut just for fun):

452169

Overall not horrible, but it's pretty clear some of the cuts are not parallel to the others. Let's call it Problem No. 1.

But wait, there's more. Look down the face:

452170


Augggggh. A much bigger problem.

They say, "buy this saw and you'll be doing perfect dovetails on your first try." Hah. One thing I can say is the saw cuts straight in the direction I point it in.

I need a coach. This is going to be a skill that is a challenge for me to adopt. I'm hoping to lessen Problem No. 1 by using Cosman's saw-tooth marking knife method, where the knife actually starts the kerf for you on the end of the pin board. But it's clear that will only take me part of the way. Until I can put Problem #2 behind me, there will be no actual dovetails cut in my shop.

[Joe A Faulkner]

Don’t despair. You only have to cut straight for 3/4 of an inch or so for most dove tails. Practice a few more times and you will get the hang of it. Years ago someone here, I think, suggested setting up a small mirror behind your work in order to see how the saw tracks on both sides of the cut. I am in need of much, much more practice so am in no position to coach. But I will encourage you, try again

[Jim Matthews]

How high do you mount the board, from the floor?

When you have your cutting hand parallel to the floor, with your elbow tucked in at 90 degrees (shake hands position) - how high is your hand off the floor?

While my dovetails aren't great, my best ones come when the board is a little higher than my neutral (shake hands) position.

****
I try to only cut lines I can see, first from the top rear corner down to the front baseline - then down the back side away from me.

My *best* dovetails still require paring.

It's not you, these are a fiddly PITA for the first hundred or so.

[Tom M King]

Do twenty more, before buying anything else.

[justin sherriff]

there is a lot to good sawing other than just a nice saw.
How are you standing?
the way your arm moves past your body.
how straight the saw is to the start of the cut.
But don't worry it is all simple things that you will learn and be sawing laser lines down a board.

This video was the most helpful bit of info that got me to being able to saw a good line
https://www.renaissancewoodworker.com/rww191-one-step-to-better-hand-sawing/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMKseOkhcqg&feature=emb_logo

[Prashun Patel]

Imho proper work holding and light and height comes before learning to saw straight. Can u describe your set up?

[Curt Putnam]

I believe that I have easily cut well over a thousand, maybe 2 thousand practice lines. I was getting better but that is couple of years in the past. Things that have helped me:

Kerf-Starter
If right handed then stand to the left of the cut line so the arm can swing freely. Exaggerate this until you get a feel for it. The arm must swing in a straight, unobstructed line.
Consciously lighten up on your grip.
A weel tuned saw will cut straight - let it.

[Bill Carey]

I've played pool my entire life, and it has given me a real edge when it comes to sawing straight. In a pool stroke the shoulder, the elbow, the hand, the dominant eye, bridge hand and the cue tip are all in the same vertical plane. If you think about keeping your shoulder and elbow and hand all in the same vertical plane when sawing, it will keep your elbow from flying out, which flexes your wrist and the saw will move in an arc. I know this for a fact - I have mis-cued thousands of times and it's always the elbow flying out of the plane. It's exactly the point of the video that Justin shared. Stop in mid stroke and look back and see where your elbow is. Watch your elbow and shoulder and hand while sawing. My 2 cents. And worth every penny.

452229

[Dennis Droege]

. . . and don't come up off the cue/shotgun stock/dovetail saw too fast.

[al heitz]

It helps if I tilt the board in the vise so that the series of cuts from one half of the lines are vertical. Cut all those lines that are vertical. Then reposition the board so that the lines for the other half of cuts are vertical. Always making vertical cuts - never making angle cuts. Eye, hand, arm, and stroke orientation never changes. Muscle memory takes hold.

[Derek Cohen]

Bob, and all those wanting to saw "straight" ...

Some might argue it is about developing a sense of plumb. To some extent this is correct, but then what about dovetail angles? I have read advice to angle the board so that the line is plumb. I consider that this misses the mark. Even Rob Cosman makes a big deal out of squaring the board to be sawn. I prefer that the board is square as well, but this will not help you in the important area.

What is the secret? Actually, it is quite simple, and it goes for tenon cheeks and shoulders as well. In fact, it goes for ALL sawing.

When we mark out Tails or cheeks (or whatever), we draw the line across the top and then down the sides. You will always saw straight if you saw two lines at the same time! Saw the top of the tail board lightly, and run the teeth over the side to the following line.

First this ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThroughDovetails3_html_1176da80.jpg


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThroughDovetails3_html_m65d19cc2.jpg


.. then drop the saw ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThroughDovetails3_html_m254d06bf.jpg

Curt's recommendation of the Kerf Starter is a good one (photos below from a review I wrote some years ago). I just score the line (or use a pencil), but eventually you will develop a sense of "square".

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/GlenDrakeJoinerySaw_html_m5bb70bfa.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/GlenDrakeJoinerySaw_html_592a4348.jpg

This can really help start a saw and reduce the concern that forces you to watch the top line and not both lines simultaneously.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/GlenDrakeJoinerySaw_html_5ac82f36.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[William Fretwell]

Derek, that’s exactly the same technique I just described a few days ago in my bookcase build!
:)

[Derek Cohen]

William, that underlines that it is the correct technique! :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

One item no one has mentioned through all of this......your ( in my case..Left) thumb.....why buy some fancy guide....when you were born with a guide. Thumbnail at the line, knuckle against the saw's plate....By adjusting how close or far from a 90 degree thumb goes....THAT will be the angle the saw will follow.....When you get the saw far enough down into the kerf, to where the plate will follow it, you can then move the thumb away.....Can't bend the knuckle far enough to the far side of 90 degrees....turn the board around. You can also easily tell when you go "off line"....you will start cutting into your thumb....hurts, don't it? Teaches you not to do that again....

Fingers of the "guide hand"? just wrap them over the board, to support the thumb...

Also, after the first one or two short "starter strokes" .....use the full length of the saw plate for the rest of the cut....be surprised how few strokes you will need to do ( 8 full strokes should get you to 3/4" depth)

You PAID for a 12-14" long saw....use the entire length....evens the wear out on those hard to see teeth....

back to saw work...
452245

I do cheat a bit, though...
452246
When doing an angled cut, like a 45 miter cut...
452247
Comes in handy, when doing Mitered Half Lap joints....
452248

At least the 2 beads will line up...YMMV

[Bob Jones 5443]

Love the Creek! What a trove of encouragement and actionable advice. If you'll indulge me, I'll try to reply to each of you. So scroll down to see yours.

First, though, thanks to Joe for the sincere pep talk. I know you're right, and I have every intention of busting through the learning curve.

Tom, for sage advice. It is not the tool but the user. Fortunately, as far as I can see, I'm more than set for gear. Twenty more, here I come.

Dennis, for the advice to follow through with the swing/shot/cut.

[Bob Jones 5443]

How high do you mount the board, from the floor?

When you have your cutting hand parallel to the floor, with your elbow tucked in at 90 degrees (shake hands position) - how high is your hand off the floor?

While my dovetails aren't great, my best ones come when the board is a little higher than my neutral (shake hands) position.

****
I try to only cut lines I can see, first from the top rear corner down to the front baseline - then down the back side away from me.

My *best* dovetails still require paring.

It's not you, these are a fiddly PITA for the first hundred or so.

Jim (you are also an encourager): My elbow is 46” off the floor. The top of my Moxon vise is 40 1/2" up. I put the board in 2 to 3 inches above the vise top, so that puts it 3 or 4 inches below my elbow. So according to your advice, I'd be better served by having the board about 4 to 5 inches higher. I have considered that and my plan has been to get to your recommended position by spreading my feet and leaning into the cut. At that position I think my arm is slightly below the top of the board.

This is wrapped up in the general topic of body position, also picked up by Justin and his video, Curt, Bill (especially), and William. I'll try to take these notions to heart: standing off to the left and keeping my elbow in plane. Sounds very useful, and I'm glad I paid my 2¢.

[Bob Jones 5443]

Imho proper work holding and light and height comes before learning to saw straight. Can u describe your set up?

Prashun, I hope I've said enough about my setup in the vise. I cut these in the daytime with full light streaming in from a window directly above the bench, but I also have dog-hole-mounted LED goosenecks on both sides at other times of the day. I also always use them for chiseling.

[Bob Jones 5443]

This surges onward between Al and Derek. In my case I do set the pin board at the vertical. (A lot of good it's done me so far!)

For tails (I confess) I use a magnetic guide for the right sides (I'm right handed), and the board is approximately vertical. For the left sides of the tails I flip the board so the other cuts are done from the right side of the guide. I haven't had trouble with tail cuts, because I carve deep into the end with my marking knife, the guide is my crutch, my fancy-schmancy saw does cut straight, and the actual angle just gets transferred to the pins anyway.

Now onward through the advice. I saved the best two for last (no criticism intended for the others).

[Bob Jones 5443]

Bob, and all those wanting to saw "straight" ...

Some might argue it is about developing a sense of plumb. To some extent this is correct, but then what about dovetail angles? I have read advice to angle the board so that the line is plumb. I consider that this misses the mark. Even Rob Cosman makes a big deal out of squaring the board to be sawn. I prefer that the board is square as well, but this will not help you in the important area.

What is the secret? Actually, it is quite simple, and it goes for tenon cheeks and shoulders as well. In fact, it goes for ALL sawing.

When we mark out Tails or cheeks (or whatever), we draw the line across the top and then down the sides. You will always saw straight if you saw two lines at the same time! Saw the top of the tail board lightly, and run the teeth over the side to the following line.

First this ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThroughDovetails3_html_1176da80.jpg


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThroughDovetails3_html_m65d19cc2.jpg


.. then drop the saw ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThroughDovetails3_html_m254d06bf.jpg

Curt's recommendation of the Kerf Starter is a good one (photos below from a review I wrote some years ago). I just score the line (or use a pencil), but eventually you will develop a sense of "square".

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/GlenDrakeJoinerySaw_html_m5bb70bfa.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/GlenDrakeJoinerySaw_html_592a4348.jpg

This can really help start a saw and reduce the concern that forces you to watch the top line and not both lines simultaneously.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/GlenDrakeJoinerySaw_html_5ac82f36.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

Ever reliable with trenchant technique wisdom, here comes Derek in my hour of need.

Cut along two lines! While this plays mischief with the height-of-arm-off-the-floor concept, it seems a logical way to avoid my Problem No. 2. That will be running through my mind in the next set of practice cuts.

[Bob Jones 5443]

One item no one has mentioned through all of this......your ( in my case..Left) thumb.....why buy some fancy guide....when you were born with a guide. Thumbnail at the line, knuckle against the saw's plate....By adjusting how close or far from a 90 degree thumb goes....THAT will be the angle the saw will follow.....When you get the saw far enough down into the kerf, to where the plate will follow it, you can then move the thumb away.....Can't bend the knuckle far enough to the far side of 90 degrees....turn the board around. You can also easily tell when you go "off line"....you will start cutting into your thumb....hurts, don't it? Teaches you not to do that again....

Fingers of the "guide hand"? just wrap them over the board, to support the thumb...

Also, after the first one or two short "starter strokes" .....use the full length of the saw plate for the rest of the cut....be surprised how few strokes you will need to do ( 8 full strokes should get you to 3/4" depth)

You PAID for a 12-14" long saw....use the entire length....evens the wear out on those hard to see teeth....

back to saw work...
452245

I do cheat a bit, though...
452246
When doing an angled cut, like a 45 miter cut...
452247
Comes in handy, when doing Mitered Half Lap joints....
452248

At least the 2 beads will line up...YMMV

Gotta say, that thumbnail/knuckle talk hits home. I'll carry this into the shop for sure.

[Jim Matthews]

Gotta say, that thumbnail/knuckle talk hits home. I'll carry this into the shop for sure.

Any progress?
What works (and what dinnit) might be good for the next shmoe with similar struggles.

[Tim Best]

Steven’s thumbnail/knuckle approach seemed to work for me yesterday, especially when starting the cut. I cut 12 dovetails and ended up with a decent looking box. A box was not my intention, but some days, I just need to build a box.

[Bob Jones 5443]

Any progress?
What works (and what dinnit) might be good for the next shmoe with similar struggles.

Jim (and others), I appreciate the interest. This week I had to clear the deck for a trip out of state to visit my son. Four clients crammed into yesterday and flight today. Alas, I’ll be out of the shop until next week. I’ll regenerate this thread with feedback on Steven’s and Derek’s suggestions once I have results.