Update on saw stop

[Lee Schierer]

I didn't want this to get buried in the previous post, but I think that rumors are bad and their seemed to be more than the usual amount of trffic on a post. So I went right to the horse in this case and asked (Note: I asked them via e-mail this moring and received this response the sme afternoon.). The following is their lengthy response to my e-mail.

"Dear Mr. Schierer,

Thanks for your email and interest in our technology. Yes, there are a lot
of rumors floating around on the various woodworking forums regarding our
technology. When we begin shipping our saws later this year and around the
beginning of next year, hopefully a lot of those rumors will be put to rest.

Let me try to respond to your comments and answer your questions in the
order presented. First, I agree that in the past people have tended to
disconnect safety devices because they interfere with what they were doing,
but I believe SawStop will be different. Our technology does not interfere
with how the saw is used, so there will be no motivation to disconnect the
device. Also, our saws will have a self-test system that detects whether key
components are installed and functioning properly. If not, then the saw will
not run.

If you have an accident and our system is triggered, the user will have to
replace a brake cartridge ($59) and probably the saw blade. The process is
simple and takes about as much time as changing the blade. Hopefully, most
users will not have an accident and will not need to replace the brake
cartridge, but if they do, we do not think the cost of the cartridge and a
new blade will be a significant impediment when compared to the increased
safety of the saw.

Yes, we and around 350 other individuals jointly filed a petition with the
U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission to look at adopting new performance
based safety standards for table saws. You can see a copy of the petition at
http://www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/foia03/petition/Bladesawpt1.pdf.

We filed the petition because we think it will help make saws safer. Every
year in the U.S. there are over 30,000 serious injuries involving table
saws. About 10% of these are amputations, and about 1.5% are to teenagers
and young adults. These injuries come at a tremendous cost to society in
medical expenses, disability, worker's comp, and rehabilitation, not to
mention pain and suffering. These injuries can now be minimized, and we
believe they should be.

We recognize there is only a very small chance the petition will be granted,
mainly because our saws are not yet out in the field. Nevertheless, we
believe the petition is worthwhile because it will allow the CPSC to analyze
both the technology and the cost to society of table saw injuries. Society
will then have more information to decide whether to adopt new safety
standards after our technology has been in the field for a period of time.

We also hope that filing the petition will motivate other manufacturers to
adopt something like our technology sooner than they otherwise would. We
have spent the last two years talking with all of the major saw
manufacturers about our technology, but no manufacturer has adopted the
technology. They all agree the technology is great, but they would have to
redesign their saws and retool their manufacturing to adopt it, and none of
them want to incur that cost if they can avoid it. The result is that people
are being injured unnecessarily.

We recognize that requiring table saws to be manufactured with something
like SawStop will limit how manufacturers can make saws, and will limit what
saws people can buy, but when we weigh that against the benefit of
minimizing tens of thousands of severe injuries every year - many to
students and employees who do not choose what saw they work on - we come
down on the side of minimizing the injuries. It is the same rationale that
is behind the regulations that currently require blade guards on saws, and
seat belts in cars - the benefits outweigh the costs.

Thanks again for your email. Let us know if you have any other questions.

David Fanning

SawStop, LLC
22409 SW Newland Road 503-638-6201
Wilsonville, OR 97070 503-638-8601 fax
fanning@sawstop.com www.sawstop.com

"

[Ken Salisbury]

WOW - Sounds real familiar
Like somthing I heard from a new car salesman about a year ago :D

[Ron Meadows]

Doesn't sound like they are in it for the money at all does it? I'm not buying it (no pun intended). I don't see where the rumors that the response refer to are occurring. People are stating, one way or the other, their beliefs in the system. Setting aside my belief on the subject, there needs to be extensive testing to determine if the system actually works and works reliably. A few tests on a hot dog or two hardly make for unbiased test results. Take a look at the second link in the original post for the SawStop petition. Much of their technical data with regards to measured voltage induced on the spinning blade shows a widely varying result dependant on the material being cut (i.e. wood, wet wood, flesh, etc). How does the system measure accurately, especially in wet wood or with sudden entry of an object into the spinning blade, tell what is flesh and what isn't? Looks to me like it can't in some cases. If there is one condition where the device gets confused you are out a finger since you are now relying on this device, and not your brain, to save you. Not good.

I believe that the implementation of this device would yield more trips to the emergency room and not a decrease as the inventors would hope. Users of a saw equipped with it couldn't help but be a little less afraid of the saw which could lead to more risky behavior while using it.

That's my $0.05

Ron

[Steve Jenkins]

If these guys live to make saws safer and that is their reason for trying to make it govt. mandated let them donate the technology and not make a profit from it. Steve

[Howard Norman]

It will be interesting to see if they actually get a saw to market. I, for one, will never buy any product manufactured by this group. I do not like their tactics and will not support those tactics in the market place.

Howard

[Phil Phelps]

What a marketing genius. Invent a procuct with the guise to protect the consumer against any fault. Buy a politician to pass a law mandating the use of such a devise on all saws sold. What's wrong with that? You already bought into air bags and saftey seats for our chillin'. It's the American way........love it or leave it!!!!

[George Summers]

I know it's been said before, but I'll say it again. I just don't like "do-gooders" telling me what is good for me "in their opinion" and then trying to force me to act as they want me to act.

George

[Dan Stuewe]

Just curious. Has there ever been such a hot topic in woodworking discussion groups that has only discussed one opinion?

I haven't read all the posts, but those that I have all dislike (bordering on hate) this product. Harbor Freight has more fans.

Just an observation.

[Jim Fuller]

:mad: I am not buying their concern for safety: I think they have sensationalized the issue by showing damaged hands and fingers. Sure we have this happen and it's tramatic for anyone who has an accident.
I have had several scares with a table saw, all from kickbacks, and am extremely cautious. But showing lots of blood and gore so you can get your product on the market is unethical, to say the least.
I agree with Steve, if they really want this to be about safety, donate it and not profit.
One thing that really stands out in all this, is the only source quoted is from sawstop. If there really are 30,000 serious injuries on table saws, (1)where did they get their info,
(2) who decided what was serious,
(3) and how many of these were cuts?
Any back injuries from moving the saws?

Also of the young adults, how many were in schools, where training and supervision should have been in place?
Lots of unanswered questions I think we need more sources to answer these than the folks we are questioning.

my $.02

[Noah Alkinburgh]

...but those that I have all dislike (bordering on hate) this product. Harbor Freight has more fans.

Just an observation.


Dan,

I think there are some that don't like the product...but most think its an ok idea or concept...what we don't like is being forced to use it.

My .02

Noah


PS I liked the Harbor Freight thing...funny :)

[Paul Geer]

Sound to much like a politician!

Thanks Lee; for posting the letter, I think it shows enough what their true motives are, monetarily speaking.

Anyway we'll see how far they'll get, not too far, I hope!

[Dennis Peacock]

OK....my turn....

1. If their product is so good....then which one of THEM is going to stick their hand in a running saw to test the device?

2. Each person carries different amounts of electrical current, meaning not the same for every person.....what if I don't have enough current in my body to trip the device?

3. I am in 100% agreement with Steve....if it's for safety and not for profit, then donate the technology.

4. It's all a marketing scheme any way and if teeny-bopers are getting hurt while in the school shop?.....then it is just like it was when I was in shop....the instructor was on break or in the instructors office and nowhere to be found inside the actual shop.

5. What about spinning router bits, spinning skillsaw blades, drill bits, poking your hand with a screwdriver?

Let's face it....some people will be more carefull than others, i.e. some woodworks I know do NOT have all their digits any longer. With a suposedly grand safety device....many will be too relaxed when working with the tools and injury's will abound.

<B>The best safety device ever?</B>

<font size="+1" color="blue"><B>Education, Education, Training and care enough about yourself to "think" before the cut.</B></font>

'nuff said......

[Dave Avery]

My $.04, slightly different take......

Regarding motives, 1. money, 2. safety, 3. desire to solve problems - they're engineers, remember. How much of each, only the inventors know - we can only suspect.

The engineers really BLEW IT with their marketing tactics. [I'll start a fight by saying that MOST (not all) engineers are great engineers, and poor marketeers becuase the skill sets for these disciplies are so different]. Mistake #1 - approach the current manufacturers of table saws (commodities) who compete mostly on price and where product innovation is low in terms of purchase decision criteria. Predicatably, they got nowhere. None of the manufactueres wants to tackle a major redesign on the hope of increased sales. Margins are thin enough as it is. Mistake #2 - try to force your way into the marketplace. Woodworkers share only one trait - they don't want to be told that to do. We are a fairly independent lot. Mistake #3 - wait too long before offering your own equipment with the proposed safety device.

All that said, I empathize with their plight. He's a group of guys who think they have a good idea that happens to improve safety (and make money), and they can't get any of the manufacturers interested in buying it. Let's remember that the saw industry is an oligarchy at best (Delta, Jet/Powermatic, Grizz/Taiwan factories must have 80% of the market). As such, it's hard to penetrate a market with new ideas.

The sad fact is that their poor marketing skills will cost them in the end. They've aliented enough people such that the baby will end up getting thrown out with the bath water. And while the current cost of the device is $500, this is at extremely small volumes. Mass produced, I bet the device would add a relatively samll amount to the cost of a saw. For my money - given that I have a 12 year old who shows some interest in woddworking in the future - I'd pay a $200 for a little piece of mind. Would it be a replacement for proper instruction, experience, and other safety precautions, of course not, but it would be worth my money.

With respect to the patent(s) and licensing the technology for free, well.... those suggestions are (you saw it coming, didn't you) patently ridiculous. Of course these guys want to make money. Did they ever say they didn't. Should they be expected to donate hundreds (more likely many thousands) of hours of their time for free. Of course not. Did they choose their marketing strategy poorly, yep.

Hoping this isn't misinterpreted........ Dave.

[David Blangger]

From reading the above it says that the blade will most likely have to be replaced. Does this mean that the blade has become warped and if so to what degree?

Is it possible that a woodworker could possibly become more injured by failing to replace his/her weakened. warped blade?

For some reason I have a picture of a woodworker that has just saved a finger or two having to plop more money down on a safety device on his cabinet saw....ooops I mean contractors saw because with the safety device he couldn't afford the cabinet saw.

Then trying to save his WWII blade to cut expenses and get an ultimate kickback on the first slice of wood.

David

[Dave Anderson]

I know it's been said before, but I'll say it again. I just don't like "do-gooders" telling me what is good for me "in their opinion" and then trying to force me to act as they want me to act.

George

Golly George, it sounds like you might have spent a long vacation in California and some of our tree-huggin' ways were experienced first-hand.
;)

First, spend the money, then pass the law, then MUCH LATER figure out how to actually pay for it... all done because "they" know what "we" need! :mad:

[Paul Downes]

Just to add to the fire. Ron meadows raises some good questions. I work as an engineer and we get vendors trying to sell their amazing and glorious devices to us on a regular basis. Sometimes they actually have a good product! Many times we destroy their 'cash cow idea' just by looking at blueprints. What works in pristine lab conditions often fails miseably on the shop floor. I also wonder what their testing criteria was. Given that my electrical engineer partner has weird ;) body circuitry from getting juiced a time or two I doubt this device would do him any good. :)
It sounds as if the saw stop has a plunger that rams into the blade on edge? Because bio-voltages are very small, I wonder how they isolate the acuator from inducted current, stray voltage etc., etc? How well does it stand up to vibration and saw dust/moisture contamination? While the brake on my circular saw still works, I've had others ask if it was working 'cause theirs quit a while ago'. Like most everyone else here, I don't want more regulations and "saftey" equipment mandated by good intentions or unscrupulous, money oriented "do-gooders". Did anyone notice that the hole in the ozone layer was closeing up. :p Just a couple 'O points.

[Paul Downes]

Just to add to the fire. Ron Meadows raises some good questions. I work as an engineer and we get vendors trying to sell their amazing and glorious devices to us on a regular basis. Sometimes they actually have a good product! Many times we destroy their 'cash cow idea' just by looking at blueprints. What works in pristine lab conditions often fails miseably on the shop floor. I also wonder what their testing criteria was. Given that my electrical engineer partner has weird ;) body circuitry from getting juiced a time or two I doubt this device would do him any good. :)
It sounds as if the saw stop has a plunger that rams into the blade on edge? Because bio-voltages are very small, I wonder how they isolate the acuator from inducted current, stray voltage etc., etc? How well does it stand up to vibration and saw dust/moisture contamination? While the brake on my circular saw still works, I've had others ask if it was working 'cause theirs quit a while ago'. Like most everyone else here, I don't want more regulations and "saftey" equipment mandated by good intentions or unscrupulous, money oriented "do-gooders". Did anyone notice that the hole in the ozone layer was closeing up. :p Just a couple 'O points.

[Brad Schafer]

i just went to their website and indulged in all the marketeze & videos (T3 is sure nice!) :)

knee jerk reaction (right leg) - the product is really slick. i don't see why the thing couldn't be modified somewhat to be a retrofit or an add-on; it's not like it would have to take up that much room (or work by dropping the blade; a simple stall would do just dandy).

(BTW - i got to witness 1st hand my grandpa losing the ends of 2 of his fingers in a TS accident years ago; this product could have prevented that ... but, so could have a little more caution, better lighting, and a lot less crap laying around the shop.)

knee jerk reaction (left leg) - agree with earlier posts that the marketing is lousy. using legislation to make a buck is a (liberal) crock (sorry - strong opinion held here). even if they really are being altruistic with their safety claim, there's an old saying about the folly of idiot-proofing, as the Universe is always building better idiots. and somewhere, someday, a better idiot will be built that will manage to whipsaw himself in spite of this product.

my advice (not that anyone listens) - give up trying to legislate profit and work on building a workable retrofit. i won't run out to buy a new saw, but i might drop $100 on a safety device.

my 2 centavos,


b

[Steve Clardy]

I still think its a great idea. I have followed the reviews for a year or so.
But I still disagree with it being shoved down my throat. Steve

[Lee Schierer]

I wrote back to them voicing some of the concerns. Here is my email to them and their response:

Thanks for the response. I posted it on one of the woodworking forums. However, I don't agree with your degree of confidence in American consumers.

If a typical contractor is using a saw with Saw Stop installed and it is triggered by his finger, he will most likely shrug it off, change blades and find a way to bypass it so he can get back to work and finish his project on time. The same is likely to happen with the consumers who buy the low end table saws.

Also, having a device such as saw stop on a saw will make people less cautious around the blade, after all they are protected. Less caution is not a good thing around a table saw.
Many newer blades are coated with teflon which is a pretty good insulator. While the teeth are exposed, the arbor and arbor washers may not be making a metal to metal contact with the blade. Does your device still work reliably under those conditions?

Mandating safety is a poor marketing approach. It has been tried with seat belts, air bags, lawnmowers and hasn't worked there. Take a walk through your neighborhood and see how many lawn mowers still have functional factory installed safety devices. Watch the next 10 cars you pass and see if all the occupants are wearing seat belts.

Good luck with your device, I think you are paddling up the wrong stream in your approach to legislate its use. Make a saw and get it on the market. If it is a good saw and the price is competitive, you will make your fortune and still save accidents. If you're not after fortune, then make your patents public domain so anyone can use the idea.



"Thanks for the email.

We agree that consumers may try to bypass the system if it is triggered and
a new cartridge in unavailable. We are doing what we can to make sure the
saw only works when the safety system is functioning.

We think people will still be cautious with their table saws because our
system detects contact with the blade, and it is hard to touch a spinning
blade even when you know the saw has SawStop. Believe me, I have done it.

The Teflon coating may prevent the arbor and washers from making conductive
contact with the blade, but there will still be capacitive coupling, and
that is what we use. So yes, our saw will work reliably under that
condition. Nevertheless, we test for a signal on the blade, and if we do not
see it for whatever reason, then our saw will not start.

Thanks again for your comments. Despite what some people may think, our
number one goal is to do exactly what you recommend, make and sell a top
quality saw. We agree that is the best way to make our technology available.

David Fanning"




They seem like they will respond to your questions, so I suggest those of you that have questions or concerns direct them to the source instead of asking others that know little of the product or the amount of testing and development that has gone into it. Their direct email is: info@sawstop.com

[Paul Geer]

David Fanning of the makers SawStop said:

"We agree that consumers may try to bypass the system if it is triggered and
a new cartridge in unavailable. We are doing what we can to make sure the
saw only works when the safety system is functioning."


So you need a new cartridge for every "trigger", Right?

I don't like the sound of that :( Here we go again, like they tried to do with seat belts the first time out :mad: except the auto once the seat belts are "clicked" will run.

[Ed Weiser]

I find it difficult to remain open minded about SawStop's motives in their petition of the CPSC. Now that their saws are nearly in production, a successful CPSC petition requiring the technology on all new TS sold would put them at least 2 year or more ahead of the major manufacturers. Their's would be a "market-proven" product. If the CPSC approves this petition I would not be surprised to see a flurry of lawsuits. On the other hand where are Delta and Jet/Powermatic in voicing their objections to the petition (unless they already know the outcome)? Almost a plot for a suspense novel...

Ed Weiser

[Howard Barlow]

I emailed my opinion and got pretty much the same response. My opinion was not supportive of their quest.

[Guy Kowalski]

OK....my turn....

1. If their product is so good....then which one of THEM is going to stick their hand in a running saw to test the device?

2. Each person carries different amounts of electrical current, meaning not the same for every person.....what if I don't have enough current in my body to trip the device?

3. I am in 100% agreement with Steve....if it's for safety and not for profit, then donate the technology.

4. It's all a marketing scheme any way and if teeny-bopers are getting hurt while in the school shop?.....then it is just like it was when I was in shop....the instructor was on break or in the instructors office and nowhere to be found inside the actual shop.

5. What about spinning router bits, spinning skillsaw blades, drill bits, poking your hand with a screwdriver?

Let's face it....some people will be more carefull than others, i.e. some woodworks I know do NOT have all their digits any longer. With a suposedly grand safety device....many will be too relaxed when working with the tools and injury's will abound.

<B>The best safety device ever?</B>

<font size="+1" color="blue"><B>Education, Education, Training and care enough about yourself to "think" before the cut.</B></font>

'nuff said......


I have seen them do exactly that at a woodworking show in New Jersey. As stupid as it seems the rep jammed his hand into the spinning blade and came out with just a small cut, more like a scratch. You also have no understanding on how the thing works. You seem to be okay with someone loosing a digit. I am sorry but I am not. I could think of worse things that could be forced on us. Tell it to the guy on Woodnet that may loose some function in his hand due to nerve damage when his hand contacted the saw blade. Sure education and thought are very important but then there are also accidents. Let me tell ya buddy, if you think this device is a bad thing.....well, I don't want to say anything I am sorry for so I will keep my mouth shut.

[Howard Barlow]

Let me tell ya buddy, if you think this device is a bad thing.....well, I don't want to say anything I am sorry for so I will keep my mouth shut.

Guy,
Nobody thinks this is a bad device. This is simply a manufacturer who couldn't get the public, or manufacturers, to run to them with cash. Now they will try to get the government to force it on us. They aren't trying to save fingers, they are trying to sell sawstops.

[Ed Falis]

Guy,
Nobody thinks this is a bad device. This is simply a manufacturer who couldn't get the public, or manufacturers, to run to them with cash. Now they will try to get the government to force it on us. They aren't trying to save fingers, they are trying to sell sawstops.

Hi Howard,

I still find myself wondering whether this move by the SawStop people wasn't a desperation move in reaction to being locked out by the big boys, because it isn't good for their bottom line.

This isn't quite the conspiracy theory some have alluded to, where the manufacturers are explicitly colluding, but they could all decide independently that this particular piece of equipment isn't good for their profits, especially wrt liability. The device may still be good for users of saws and other power equipment.

So, this could be one of those classic cases where something good doesn't happen because the "free market" doesn't have infinite wisdom, especially when quarterly performance is what executives are evaluated on. That's the kind of situation that has typically brought in government intervention if the situation was "serious" enough.

There are a range of philosophies about the exact tradeoff on where government intervention is a good or bad thing. But contrary to what seems to be the prevailing attitude these days (and which plays right into the hands of corporations that do abuse the public), it's not always a bad thing in and of itself. Each situation needs to be evaluated on its own terms.

Personally, I don't think what these people did is such a bad thing, as you can probably tell from this rant. I've seen some mightily snakey business practices in my 25 years in the software business. So, I'm willing to give these guys the benefit of the doubt for now.

Just some different thoughts, while still respecting your point of view on this.

- Ed

[Bill Esposito]

Hi Howard,
I still find myself wondering whether this move by the SawStop people wasn't a desperation move in reaction to being locked out by the big boys, because it isn't good for their bottom line.
- Ed Ed,

I have to respectively dissagree with you :) This device, while pretty cool, is just impractical. We are not talking about simply adding seat belts as some have alluded to. We are talking about a device which completly redesigns the most complex and costly part of a table saw. There are plenty of inventions which just arent practical or marketable and this is one of them. These guys are trying to compensate for the fact that they havent built the better mousetrap by trying to get it legislated into the marketplace.

[Dave Anderson]

I can't help myself...

Look folks - I'm all for safety but this whole scenario reeks.

First, I'm convinced that they are attempting to force Draconian measures upon us via Federal Mandate. I have read <b>all</b> the sawstop threads on ALL the forums and most agree that they have a good idea but don't like their shenanigans.

However, I'm not sure I even like their product, safety or no. Will their devise prevent injury - yes - at least we hope so. But look at it this way: Their devise will self-destruct, destroy your saw blade OR MORE (arbor, trunion, etc.) costing you potentially HUNDREDS of dollars to fix and get back to your profession or hobby. Think about what happens to a car going 100 mph and hits a 30ft thick wall. That wall aint movin! The sawstop does the same thing to your tablesaw. A beefier saw like a Uni or 66 will likely suffer less damage than a contractor saw but damage will be done, rest assured.

I'm not willing to pay that price - and don't bother with the "your finger (hand, arm) is surely worth a hundred bucks or so" argument. Of course it is but that's not the point here.

I wouldn't use their product if they paid ME.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Ed Falis]

Respectfully acknowledged, Bill

- Ed

[Charlie Kocourek]

I've seen the saw, I've seen a demo, I've read reviews written by people who have actually used this saw, and then I ordered one for myself.

My #1 criteria was "is it a high quality piece of equipment?" I have never heard a bad word about the quality of the saw. In fact, everything I have heard is that this is an exceptionally high quality and well built machine.

My #2 criteria was safety. Well, the gadget does seem to work and it does come with a very well designed riving knife.

Criteria #3 Does the company stand by it's product. So far they do. It does concern me that this is a very small and very new company, but so far so good.

Criteria #4 Dust collection. Sounds like it is as good or better than other saws on the market today.

Finally, way way down my list is politics. I am more concerned about the quality of the saw and the safety of my family (who will also use this saw) than I am about politics.

I am not here to offend anyone and you guys have a right to your opinion. In fact, these guys may very well be as profit oriented as you say. I just enjoy woodworking.

[Michael Ballent]

I am glad to see that they keep these posts for so long :) Everyone that I have talked to seems to love their SawStop, and I have just plunked my dollars to buy one... It will be here on Monday... I should have ordered it sooner so I could begin assembling it over the weekend :D

[Chris Padilla]

Wow, that thread was REALLY dug up from the past! :) It was interesting to read it, Charlie so I thank you. There is a really long one going that I started last year.

However, if I were in the market for a new TS, I wouldn't even hesitate to get the SS. Forget about the safety feature, it appears to be one heckuva saw and addresses many of the shortcomings on existing saws.

I'm sure we'll soon see the Grizzlies, Deltas, Jets, Powermatics, Generals, and Bridgewoods step up to the plate and try to outclass Mr. Gass' fine creation...but they won't have SS's blade brake on 'em for sure!

[Joe Spear]

It will be interesting to see if they actually get a saw to market. I, for one, will never buy any product manufactured by this group. I do not like their tactics and will not support those tactics in the market place.

Howard
Their cabinet saw has actually been produced for a while now, and many people have bought the things and are using them happily. Another person questioned the blade having to be replaced. The safety device grabs the blade to brake it, and the while thing drops down below the table instantaneously. That could very well ruin a blade. However, that is a price I would have gladly paid last September when I accidently stuck four of my fingers into my saw blade and lacerated them badly. Fortunately I got a excellent surgeon at Mass. General Hospital who reassembled one of my nerves under a microscope, screwed part of my knuckle bone to the rest of the knuckle, and stitched up everything. My hand is now fully functional, but I wish I had had a Sawstop and avoided the whole experience. Whether or not you think it's a good idea to lobby for legislation to mandate the device is another issue. And whether or not there are many other sources of danger in the shop (I normally cut myself with chisels and handsaws.), the Sawstop is a good idea, and it works.

[Charlie Kocourek]

:p I didn't even notice the date on that thread

[Keith Burns]

My nickle's worth. If you don't like it don't buy it ! Even they admit they probably won't get the government to mandate it's use. What's wrong with trying to make a profit ? We all do it in one fashion or another. I for one am very cautious and careful with my tools but accidents happen regardless ( I've had my share) and anything that will prevent injury is worth the money. I'd spend $500.00 today for a retrofit kit if one was available.

"Some days it's not even worth chewing through the restraints."