PayPal burn

[John Terefenko]

Well I got scammed for the first time in my life. I try to be as vigilant as possible but been burned. I was schooled too. I placed an ad in various woodworking forums including this one looking for a Byrnes mini thickness drum sander. Someone on another forum PMed me that they know a person who has "them." This should have been my first clue. No one has more than one. My second mistake was not to check this persons on line record on that forum. He was new and just joined 2 weeks ago. I was too anxious because these are hard to come by used. Anyway I got in touch with the person and he showed me a photo of one that was used from the sawdust all over it. OK we set on a price and he said it included shipping. Great. My third clue and this was a hair on the neck tingle thing, he answered some questions and with one word all the time. No details. But still proceding on and he requests for me to send money through PayPal through Family and Friends so he does not have to pay fee. I have done this in the past and figured I am protected by PayPal so I agreed. He said as soon as deal pending clears he will send. Well 4 then 5 days go by and I keep emailing him to send me shipping number and carrier and no reply. Well fast forward 9 days and he finally answers my email and says FedX wants $100 for shipping. Now I knew I was had right there and told him no way and that I want a refund. He emails back and says he will take $50 and send tomorrow. I again refused and demanded my money back and threatened him to tell PayPal. Well I did call PayPal and they tell me that I sent money through F&F there is no recourse for them to take and I was out the money. Now this was the lesson I learned because I never knew that. From now on I will never ever do F&F unless my own family. I know where they live. This is just a warning for anyone that deals with PP and doing any deals. Be careful. I can not even fight this through my credit card because it was not a card that was used.

It is just ashame how people do things like this. Be careful when buying on line weather through this site or any site.

Just to clear something, this person was operating under the guise of PM messages in the classified section. Again did not happen on this site but my message is for any site you go to. This guy had multiple addresses and was from Nigeria as I found out.

[Chuck Wintle]

Well I got scammed for the first time in my life. I try to be as vigilant as possible but been burned. I was schooled too. I placed an ad in various woodworking forums including this one looking for a Byrnes mini thickness drum sander. Someone on another forum PMed me that they know a person who has "them." This should have been my first clue. No one has more than one. My second mistake was not to check this persons on line record on that forum. He was new and just joined 2 weeks ago. I was too anxious because these are hard to come by used. Anyway I got in touch with the person and he showed me a photo of one that was used from the sawdust all over it. OK we set on a price and he said it included shipping. Great. My third clue and this was a hair on the neck tingle thing, he answered some questions and with one word all the time. No details. But still proceding on and he requests for me to send money through PayPal through Family and Friends so he does not have to pay fee. I have done this in the past and figured I am protected by PayPal so I agreed. He said as soon as deal pending clears he will send. Well 4 then 5 days go by and I keep emailing him to send me shipping number and carrier and no reply. Well fast forward 9 days and he finally answers my email and says FedX wants $100 for shipping. Now I knew I was had right there and told him no way and that I want a refund. He emails back and says he will take $50 and send tomorrow. I again refused and demanded my money back and threatened him to tell PayPal. Well I did call PayPal and they tell me that I sent money through F&F there is no recourse for them to take and I was out the money. Now this was the lesson I learned because I never knew that. From now on I will never ever do F&F unless my own family. I know where they live. This is just a warning for anyone that deals with PP and doing any deals. Be careful. I can not even fight this through my credit card because it was not a card that was used.

It is just ashame how people do things like this. Be careful when buying on line weather through this site or any site.

Just to clear something, this person was operating under the guise of PM messages in the classified section. Again did not happen on this site but my message is for any site you go to. This guy had multiple addresses and was from Nigeria as I found out.

Wow....you fell into the trap hook , line and sinker. As you said all the warning signs were there but something made you ignore them. That would worry me more than anything.

[Ron Citerone]

Glad you posted this so others can be more savvy and hopefully learn from your experience. I never knew about the Family and Friends thing but now I do.
My aunt got scammed with the Grandson in jail scam some years ago. She was older. Instead of staying quiet like many who have been scammed might have, she went to the local paper and shared her story so others would not fall onto the same scam.

[Zachary Hoyt]

Family and Friends is supposed to be used only for people you actually know and trust (though even this can be scammed by someone pretending to be someone you know, it's a lot harder). There are a lot of people who say you (the buyer) have to use F&F, or that you have to pay the PayPal fee. Both of these are clear and obvious violations of the PayPal terms of service, and I would not trust anyone who asked for these things to be honest about what they are selling, nor would I do business with them. Most of my income is derived from PayPal sales, and I pay the fees, it is one of the expenses of doing business.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

There was something here about a year ago for the same thing. Guy screwed himself doing F&F I'll tell the seller I will pay the extra for the protection and goes as a purchase. I have ordered many things from all over the world through pay pal and not been burned yet on International. Australia, China, Russia, India, Philippines. Got one right now on mis representation of items on ebay. Should hear from ebay today. The pay pal payment is pending ebay's decision.

[Steve Demuth]

Man, that's tough.

PayPal is not as clear as they could be on the F & F transfer. Once people hear it, of course, it makes sense: no fees from the recipient means no way to underwrite losses for PayPal, so it's a one-way transaction.

I was similarly scammed in my first ever effort to book an AirB&B some years ago. I booked a place (that in retrospect had plenty of signs it might be "too good to be true,") and the supposed landlord subsequently asked me to cancel, as they had "something come up" that prevented them renting the property out when I needed it, but rather than them backing it out and paying AirB&B's cancellation fee, could I just cancel my booking and they'd refund all the money via PayPal? So I did, and of course never saw my deposit refunded. It took me a several dumb emails to the supposed landlord before it sunk in to me that I'd been scammed.

New rule at that point: any time anyone asks for anything other than a fully protected, vendor-in-the-loop, channel for money, the answer is no. The ONLY exception is when I'm standing in someone's yard paying cash for something listed on Craigslist, and the tool is already in my truck.

The scams still work often enough to be worthwhile, though. Everybody is subject to the occasional lapse in judgment. I know someone here - nobody's fool by any measure - who got burned a pretty large sum on a Craigslist scam for a tractor.

[Jim Becker]

John, that particular scam type has been virulent in forums lately. Those of us who moderate at various places are constantly dealing with the posts that follow the pattern you describe..."so-and-so has the item available and you can contact them at this number/email". And it doesn't end well for folks who bite. Very sad you got taken, but know that you are not alone out there.

BTW, F&F has zero protection. None. That's why they ask for that payment method because they know they cannot get back-charged once the scam is complete. It's pretty much the same as wiring money via any kind of instant transfer method, both with traditional means like Western Union as well as more recent ones like Venemo.

[John Terefenko]

YES to Jim and to all. A big yes. I was taken in by humanity and being an honest person. This is how these people prey on us. Not using PP often enough to I guess follow their plans is what got me. I was schooled though so it will not happen again. Yes there were many telltale signs and the hairs on the back of my neck did tingle but I had just made a purchase of the Byrnes mini tablesaw a week prior and everything went so smooth and I was giddy to think I now even found the sander. They sent me photos and all. The main reason I posted is to tell you all how it was done through PM's and they never even posted on the forum. As Jim said it is a constant battle to moderate these people. I was a moderator on another forum many years ago and back then it was tough. Now a days they are so much smarter and have all the weapons. They did know about the F&F thing and thus why they chose that route. Thankfully it was only $200 but I shut down when they came back for more and that is when it all hit. Brazen they were. I am sure we all have stories of either people we know or family members who have been scammed in some way. Hopefully when all said and done the Good Lord will sort them all out.

Will say this I went to bank today to file a claim and who knows if anything will become of it but it was my last ditch effort. If just one person here learned from my mistake then posting this did some good. Thanks all.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Sorry to hear of you misadventure John.

Another one to worry about is buying something via a corporate "marketplace". In December 2019 I ordered a "rebuilt" combination DVD/VCR player via either Sears or Penny's marketplace. I can't remember which one. It arrived from a source in Louisville, KY. It wouldn't accept DVDs. Multiple emails to the seller either didn't get a response or a delay but no action. Finally I went to the corporation that hosted this marketplace. I hounded them for nearly 2 months and finally got my $225 refund from the corporation because they couldn't any more response from the seller than I was getting.

[Jim Becker]

Most of the time, these "I know a person who has one" scams happen by private message...so that makes it even harder to moderate because unless someone reports the message, it's never seen.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Glad you posted this so others can be more savvy and hopefully learn from your experience. I never knew about the Family and Friends thing but now I do.
My aunt got scammed with the Grandson in jail scam some years ago. She was older. Instead of staying quiet like many who have been scammed might have, she went to the local paper and shared her story so others would not fall onto the same scam.


Sister got the same call, telling her grandson was in jail, and needed bail. After supposed GS talked to her, she led them on for a little while. Lots of questions about reason for him being in jail. It was a traffic offense, for which his insurance would have posted his bail. After a few more minutes, the caller was getting more demanding, sister dropped the hammer on them. Her grandson was sitting in the room, all the time listening to call on speaker phone. BUZZ!!!!

[John Terefenko]

Most of the time, these "I know a person who has one" scams happen by private message...so that makes it even harder to moderate because unless someone reports the message, it's never seen.


My point exactly JIM. That is what happened and that is why I am putting the warning out. Now I used PayPal in the title because I know many people use it and they just were part of my story and within it there is the F&F avenue too. Just got another message from the moderator on the site it happened and he told me this guy had 17 different addresses and yes he is banning him for life but as I said they are smart and will find ways around. He went ahead and posted a warning about just what you said Jim on his site.

[Dick Strauss]

This situation is part of the reason I flag messages from folks with less than 10 posts that include links to products. Are they a scammer? Are they earning money from links because it is their product or are they earning a referral fee?

Maybe forums should prevent links for folks with less than X posts to make it harder for them to scam/earn money.

[Jim Koepke]

YES to Jim and to all. A big yes. I was taken in by humanity and being an honest person. This is how these people prey on us. Not using PP often enough to I guess follow their plans is what got me.

The seller was asking you to be less than honest to use the F&F method to pay.

Maybe sometimes that is okay, for me paying an extra 3% isn't that big of a deal breaker.

jtk

[Jim Becker]

Jim, it's the seller that gets hit with the 3% service fee. Sellers are not supposed to actually ask for 3% more, too, per PayPal's policies...if they want to cover it behind the scenes, they are supposed to price accordingly. But most importantly in this case, the scammers are asking for F&F specifically because they know that it's a one way deal that the buyer cannot recover from...it's the equivalent of cash and possession of the "cash" is final.

[Kev Williams]

So John, how did you "actually" pay? As in, does Paypal source money from your bank account, debit card, credit card-? If credit card, you still may be able to do a chargeback by dealing directly your card company. I don't know this for sure, but maybe worth a try?

[John Terefenko]

So John, how did you "actually" pay? As in, does Paypal source money from your bank account, debit card, credit card-? If credit card, you still may be able to do a chargeback by dealing directly your card company. I don't know this for sure, but maybe worth a try?

This is what I am doing with my bank now. Was there Fri and they will let me know in 10 days. I hope they just do a good faith return of funds and they write off on their insurance. As I said numerous times here. I was schooled and learned about the F&F policy. I have done that with a few people before on another site but was more friendly with them. This was a knee jerk reaction to maybe actually getting this sander for the price and when they showed photos of a used sander with saw dust all around it just made me giddy. Probably was a photo they got off pintrest or somewhere. I guess I am too honest and trusting. This was a first and will hopefully be the last. I learned from this and all the info I got from here and other sites. I thank everyone and will let you know how it turns out.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

This is what I am doing with my bank now. Was there Fri and they will let me know in 10 days. I hope they just do a good faith return of funds and they write off on their insurance. As I said numerous times here. I was schooled and learned about the F&F policy. I have done that with a few people before on another site but was more friendly with them. This was a knee jerk reaction to maybe actually getting this sander for the price and when they showed photos of a used sander with saw dust all around it just made me giddy. Probably was a photo they got off pintrest or somewhere. I guess I am too honest and trusting. This was a first and will hopefully be the last. I learned from this and all the info I got from here and other sites. I thank everyone and will let you know how it turns out.

If you are made whole, great. About a decade ago, I represented a guy that got caught in a deal over part for a corvette on ebay. The part never showed up. We sued in small claims court on the grounds that payment included delivery to him at his residence. Since performance was to be completed in his home state, his home state had "long arm" jurisdiction over the Florida seller. We even had service of process by a Florida Sherriff dept.
We got judgment under his states, consumer protection statute of three times the value plus attorney's fees. Waited for the judgment to be at least 30 days old (past the period for appeals) So instead of a judgment for $900 dollars he got a judgment for $3,100 plus costs. We filed the judgment in the county where the seller lived and it became a lien on his property. Apparently, the judgment affected his credit and when he found out his loan was turned down, he was livid. It took another month, but the guy ended up paying. Ironically, I ended up representing the seller who was similarly burned by a parson in the same town as my office. He got a small claim judgment in Fla, and I handled the collection of the judgment here in PA. Such procedures will not work in every state, but work in about half.

[Jim Koepke]

Jim, it's the seller that gets hit with the 3% service fee. Sellers are not supposed to actually ask for 3% more, too, per PayPal's policies...if they want to cover it behind the scenes, they are supposed to price accordingly. But most importantly in this case, the scammers are asking for F&F specifically because they know that it's a one way deal that the buyer cannot recover from...it's the equivalent of cash and possession of the "cash" is final.

"Sellers are not supposed to actually ask for 3% more," but they occasionally do.

Having been a seller and buyer using Paypal my items on ebay not only calculate the Paypal fees they usually include shipping to US locations in the starting price.

Paypal offers a secure service. To me it usually doesn't bother me to pay the extra 3%. Some have asked me to use F&F payment. That is also okay with me.

jtk

[John Terefenko]

I did mention that I would let you know the outcome. Well the bank has reimbursed me the $200 to my account. Had to go in and clear up with PayPal because they froze my account after Bank informed them of the scam. But all is good again.

[Dave Zellers]

Very glad to get this update. Thank you.

[Matt Day]

About 20 years ago I got scammed. This was very early on in the old scam where they’d send you a cashiers check for more than the asking price. I didn’t know any better and brought the CC to my bank and told them the deal and they said it was good to go. Money appeared in my account and everything. I too my money and sent the rest back. Obviously it was a scam. Thing that really irks me is the money cleared and not until a couple weeks later did the fraud dept from the bank call saying it was forged. Learned from that one. And if happened to me today I’d be a lot More cautious.