Saw footprint & horsepower thoughts/questions...so I need opinions!!

[Ryan W Taylor]

I cannot get a slider. I have used them and I know the wonderful things about them...but I am very limited on space. So I am going to have to get a cabinet saw when I upgrade. I want to get a solid saw that is going to last me years. Period. Not something I am going to regret in 2 years if you know what I mean.

I have 110v service right now, but I have no issue upgrading to the 220/240v standard. Here is where I am really stumped.

I want a strong saw. Something that will cut easily through the hardest wood and not get bogged down, have a clean cut on the Dado Stack as well as when making normal cuts. I am thinking that a 5HP saw would be the way to go. What I am trying to figure out is, is there any use in looking at the 220v 3HP saw?

The saw I am looking at right now is the 10": 5HP 1023RLWX since...

1. Has a small footprint
2. Can have a mobile base for me to wheel it out and use in my driveway.
3. *insert Arnold voice* Lots of POWAAA

I like the feature on the Sawstop where you can add a slider attachment to the left side of the saw. Is there anything like that for other saws? My wife saw the price on the sawstop and literally said "That is insane...NO".

[Steve Coley]

I cannot get a slider. I have used them and I know the wonderful things about them...but I am very limited on space. So I am going to have to get a cabinet saw when I upgrade. I want to get a solid saw that is going to last me years. Period. Not something I am going to regret in 2 years if you know what I mean.

I have 110v service right now, but I have no issue upgrading to the 220/240v standard. Here is where I am really stumped.

I want a strong saw. Something that will cut easily through the hardest wood and not get bogged down, have a clean cut on the Dado Stack as well as when making normal cuts. I am thinking that a 5HP saw would be the way to go. What I am trying to figure out is, is there any use in looking at the 220v 3HP saw?

The saw I am looking at right now is the 10": 5HP 1023RLWX since...

1. Has a small footprint
2. Can have a mobile base for me to wheel it out and use in my driveway.
3. *insert Arnold voice* Lots of POWAAA

I like the feature on the Sawstop where you can add a slider attachment to the left side of the saw. Is there anything like that for other saws? My wife saw the price on the sawstop and literally said "That is insane...NO".
Others will jump in here, but you are unlikely to need 5HP. 3HP will likely be enough. Be advised there is a long delivery time on Grizzly 1023. You might want to call them and check on that. I have had one on order since December.

[Ryan W Taylor]

Talked to them yesterday. Sounds like they are getting in more in roughly ~ late March. Most have been accounted for.

As for 3 HP....how much does that bog down against eight quarter seasoned white oak?


Others will jump in here, but you are unlikely to need 5HP. 3HP will likely be enough. Be advised there is a long delivery time on Grizzly 1023. You might want to call them and check on that. I have had one on order since December.

[Erik Loza]

3hp should be fine. IME, the vast majority of "it bogged my saw down" is due to using the wrong blade for the job. Good luck in your search.

Erik

[Bill Space]

I love my G1023RLWX.

Only costs a bit more. In my case it was only 50 bucks or so. Back then.

I say go for it. You only use the extra HP when you need it. And the larger motor will run cooler because it has more mass. Buy once, enjoy for the long term.

You will need a 220 volt, 30 amp supply to the saw though...

[Lisa Starr]

I have a much older Grizzly 1023 and it does not bog down. Period. It is well over 15 years old and never needs repairs or re-aligning. 3HP should be fine for you.

As for extended lead times for saw and other woodworking equipment is that you want a particular item, there is no point in settling for something else. You've lived however long without it and a few more months isn't much in the big scheme. I just waited between 5 and 6 months for a piece of equipment.

[Carroll Courtney]

Well even if you are running a cabinet shop I still don't see the need in 5hp saw. Bigger is not always better, I know no one wants to go back to the old days before all these beauty saws but then the top guns of TS Unisaws and PM 66 which some were just 1 1/2 to 3hp. Like Eric said right blade is more important than hp.

[Ryan W Taylor]

Well, right now I am running a Tenyru Gold Medal blade on my current saw. It seems to do the trick pretty well.

[Rod Sheridan]

A small slider like mine takes up the same or less space than a cabinet saw, will crosscut a sheet of plywood, has a scoring saw and takes a dado.

I had a General 650 cabinet saw before the slider, and you couldn’t convince me to go backward to a cabinet saw again.

As for mobility mine uses the semi live skid format which I consider to be the best system.

The saw is 4HP, will take a 12” blade for 4” depth of cut although I mostly use 10 inch blades.....Regards, Rod

[Ryan W Taylor]

A small slider like mine takes up the same or less space than a cabinet saw, will crosscut a sheet of plywood, has a scoring saw and takes a dado.

I had a General 650 cabinet saw before the slider, and you couldn’t convince me to go backward to a cabinet saw again.

As for mobility mine uses the semi live skid format which I consider to be the best system.

The saw is 4HP, will take a 12” blade for 4” depth of cut although I mostly use 10 inch blades.....Regards, Rod


Which saw do you have? Can you send/post a photo?

[Rod Sheridan]

Which saw do you have? Can you send/post a photo?

Hi Ryan, I have a Hammer B3 Winner with a 51" sliding table. It's a saw/shaper, if you only want a saw it's a K3 model.451902451903

[Rod Sheridan]

Ryan, here's the drawing of the machine.451904451905451906451907

I've also included a photo of the outrigger support arm deployed and stowed.

Normally I don't have the outrigger on the saw, when I have to crosscut something big I put it on, takes a couple minutes, no tools required. Calibration is not affected by removing or installing the outrigger........Rod.

[Dave Cav]

As other folks have mentioned, 3 HP would probably be plenty for a 10" cabinet saw. I have run a number of Unisaws and Powermatic 66s with 1.5 to 3 HP motors with no problems.

You might check on CL or other online sales venues for a used Unisaw or PM66. They are generally pretty reasonably priced and are all iron and steel construction. They're easy to rebuild and parts are available either on Ebay or OWWM. Everything you need to know about rebuilding one is available at either OWWM dot com or at the Vintage Machinery dot org site. Plus, the footprint of either saw isn't any bigger than a contractor saw.

That being said, I made room in my shop for a slider. I had a big Rockwell 12/14 grouped with a Delta shaper and a Powermatic cabinet saw. I sold the 12/14, the shaper, the adjacent RAS and shoehorned in a Minimax SC4E and I couldn't be happier.

[Ryan W Taylor]

That's.....surprisingly....small.


Ryan, here's the drawing of the machine.451904451905451906451907

I've also included a photo of the outrigger support arm deployed and stowed.

Normally I don't have the outrigger on the saw, when I have to crosscut something big I put it on, takes a couple minutes, no tools required. Calibration is not affected by removing or installing the outrigger........Rod.

[Michael W. Clark]

Unless I’m missing something, it’s only a $100 more for the 5hp model so why not? Unless you are limited with power supply, it will take bigger circuit.

I have a 5hp older G1023, it will change sound when doing deep 3/4” dados, never had a problem ripping. Mine is 3ph and on a static converter so not even getting full HP.

The Hammer is a different style and class IMO, but different money too. Grizzly makes a short stroke slider, but Hammer gets mostly great reviews. I haven’t seen much on the Grizzly sliders but haven’t looked either.

[Ben Grefe]

For $100 more I see no reason *not* to get a 5HP upgrade, but at the same time I've never had a problem bogging down my 3HP cabinet saw unless the blade was missing teeth. If I were looking for a new cabinet saw and not considering a SawStop then I'd look awfully close at 12 inch blade models. In that case I'd want a 5HP motor.

[Cary Falk]

I have a 3hp G01023RL. It is fine. I cut a lot of 4/4 hard maple without issue. I don't cut a lot of 8/4 but the right blade will make a difference. I didn't have a 30A circuit when I bought it but I have several other 5hp now. so I had to run it eventually. You can attach the Saw Stop slider to the Grizzly. Wort thing that can happen is you might have to drill a few holes that match up but I am guessing it is a universal fit. Grizzly used to offer a sliding attachment but I don't see it anymore. It looks like it is still marketed under the Shop Fox name(W1822). I have the JessEm Mast-R-Slide on mine. I love mine but they no longer make it.

[Jim Dwight]

I cannot imagine a 3hp not being enough - especially if you are willing to change blades for deep rips. I use a 1.75hp PCS and I need a thin kerf blade but I can use an all around blade for 3 inch deep rips in softwood. Hardwood will probably require the ripping blade, haven't done deep rips in hardwood yet. Inch to inch and a half are fine with all around. I have zero desire to "upgrade".

With respect to cost, it is wise to consider what one incident will cost. I had used table saws for literally decades until a dumb decision last year led to a broken bone and six stitches - despite using a sawstop. I would have lost the end of a finger, at least, with a Grizzly. I mentioned that I was still injured deliberately, I think SS oversells a little with their claim of no serious injury but it is factual that they help a lot if you touch the blade. The difference in medical cost of my mistake was easily greater than the difference in cost of the saws. I'm not trying to talk you into anything, just providing a point to consider.

[Patrick Kane]

OP, i see you mention 8/4, but if you work with 8/4+ very often then i would definitely go 5hp+ and possibly a 12/14" format. I know you are limited in footprint, but there isnt much practical size difference between a 10" saw and a small slider like Rod, or a 12" saw. They tend to be deeper machines, which you will probably have on a smaller machine in the form of outfeed support. However, the width is predicated on the rip fence you choose, and so they often occupy a similar footprint as a 10" saw, but are significantly heftier. As an example, my old unisaw's footprint was very close to the footprint of my Felder KF700 without the outrigger. Possibly 8" shallower than a PM72, and about 12" less than my Martin T17(also minus the outrigger/sliding table). At the end of the day, if those extra 8-12" arent critical to your shop, then i think you can fit a lot more machine than you think. There are a lot of options between the footprint of a 10" cabinet saw and a large format slider.

As to power, i actually consider 3hp to be pretty light when it comes to 2"+ hardwood. Sharp and clean blades definitely help, but i stalled my 3hp unisaw all the time. Sometimes wood has tension in it from growth or case hardening, and you simply need power to muscle through those forces. Ive had wood clamp firmly down on a riving knife/splitter many times, and more power is actually your ally there. Ive found a saw to be more of a kickback hazard when its underpowered. Same with my 5hp pm72. Tripped the VFD half a dozen times in a year of ownership.

[Alex Zeller]

I have a PM66 with a 3hp Baldor (not that it should make a difference). I've yet to bog it down. That includes cutting 8/4 hard maple at a 45 to make some curved boxes. That was with a full kerf 50 tpi blade. If given a choice for a small upgrade price I would go with 5hp but if it came down to getting a 3hp saw now vs waiting months for the 5hp I don't think I would wait. Is there a reason why you aren't think about a Sawstop? Not that I'm pushing you toward one and not wanting to get into the safety aspect debate but I have yet to hear anyone complain about fit or finish. If a slider is not an option and you're looking at a "lifetime" saw I would put them on my list. Is used out of the question? I bought my PM66 used and spent some time to clean up the internals and replace the bearings in the arbor and motor. Just refreshed it, not a restoration with new paint.

[Erik Loza]

The vast majority of our sliding table saws ship with 4hp (S6/40%) motors and I've never bogged one down. Not even close, in fact.

Erik

[ray grundhoefer]

I have an old delta unisaw with a 2hp RI motor in it . Cuts anything I run through it . A 3 hp motor would be fine

[Alan Lightstone]

Using the wrong blade, I have actually bogged down a 5HP Sawstop ICS. So it is possible. With the correct rip blade, it powered through like butter.

[Brian Holcombe]

5hp, no question.

More horsepower provided very little downside outside of the need to use a different size for leads.

In industrial applications there is a tendency toward more HP even if the application could do with less becuase a larger motor with a lower strain will live longer than a lower Hp under strain closer to its full output.

[Derek Cohen]

Ryan, my Hammer K3 Winner is 4 hp and cuts through very hard West Australian timber with ease. All up it has a smaller footprint than the contract saw it replaced. The 1350mm long slider can also be locked down to become a cabinet saw with a 31” wide rip. The micro adjustable rip fence may be used high or low.

https://i.postimg.cc/XJTP8ySS/1.jpg

This saw meets all my needs. I have no desire to upgrade.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Ryan W Taylor]

Update:

Did a lot of thinking after making a TON of calls. Checked out some stuff and watched a ton of video's and I listened to you guys. One thing stuck in my head though...and that was the thought of cutting of my fingers. I made it through the Army alive, and I prefer to make it through woodworking with all of my digits and this ugly mug intact. Fast forward to today and I was able to see a sawstop in person that is used all the time and I was impressed.

So long story short, I have tenatively decided on the 36" PCS 3HP. I am going to have to run a new drop out to my tiny garage for it, but I think it will be well worth it. I even told my wife that I would sell one of my service rifle scopes, a mount for it as well as my annealer that I never use to compensate for the cost I will be incurring.

So time shall tell and we shall see what transpires.


Oh...and that big 14" Rikon band saw is nice.... :)

[David Publicover]

Congratulations! It’s a nice saw with some great features. Enjoy!

[Larry Frank]

It seems that every thread on table saws has someone mentioning the K3 but does not mention the price. I just looked up the price on it and was close to $8400! Wow...very nice saws but much more than a very good table saw.

[David Publicover]

Hi Larry,
I just made a similar comment on a different Sawstop thread. I wasn’t sure of the actual price but suspected it was a serious upcharge over the PCS that was being discussed. Thanks for enlightening me. That is a significant amount of money.
Best regards,
David

[Rod Sheridan]

It seems that every thread on table saws has someone mentioning the K3 but does not mention the price. I just looked up the price on it and was close to $8400! Wow...very nice saws but much more than a very good table saw.

That must be for the largest model...........Rod.

[Joe Jensen]

I had a 3HP Unisaw and in 1990 I upgraded to a 3HP PM66. In 2005 I moved to a 5HP Sawstop ICS. I had only bogged down the 3HP saws twice. Both when ripping 2.5" deep in red oak. Using a 30 TPI Forrest blade if I slowed down the wood would burn and faster and the saw would bog. I didn't have a true rip blade at the time. If I had I doubt I would have bogged the saw down. That said, the upcharge for 5HP over 3HP on the ICS was only $200 so I went with 5HP.

IMHO if you want to buy a cabinet saw once get a 5HP Sawstop ICS. I upgraded to get to a slider and if I had to downside I'd be back with the 5HP ICS.

[Warren Lake]

Paid 1,200.00 Canadian so 900.00 US for a used SCM off a forum.

9hp, outstanding dust collection, can take a 16" blade for 5 1/4" or more cut, 14" blade if scoring saw, 1,300 lbs or very close, not substitue for lack of mass. You pay more in tax. I could have got the saw for less as well.