Exterior Door with 1/2" Panels and 1/4" Glass?

[derek labian]

I've been looking at plans for doors and all rail/style cutters either cut a 1/4" or 1/2" tongue groove. I need to build a door with 1/2" panels that are not raised (so I need a 1/2" slot) and 1/4" laminated glass.

What would be the proper way to do this, because it seems like you have to cut the 1/2" groove all the way down the rails. The glass needs to start at the rail, so you would have to shim it by 1/8" on both sides of the glass? The other problem is, this won't allow for replacement of the glass.

I've been racking my brain trying to figure out the best way to approach this and haven't come up with any great ideas.

[Alex Zeller]

You will want to make a removable stop for the glass. The glass company supplying the glass will have 1/8" foam tape that's sticky on both sides that can make up the difference. If needed I guess you could just use a style and rail bit for glass and make a stop for both the glass and the wood panels.

[Jared Sankovich]

As mentioned glazing bead/stop. This is a cabinet door but the concept is the same.
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[Kevin Jenness]

You should allow for replacement of the glass. Some cope/stick cutter sets can be set up so the molding is formed on only one face of the door leaving a rabbet open to the other face for insertion of the glass and wood panels which are held in with removable stops. Otherwise you can remove the molding on one face at the glass openings with a flush trim bit.

[derek labian]

I guess my confusion is, the rail gets cut all the same time. It's suggested using a glass cutter to remove the lower part of the rail so you can use a glass stop instead. I don't understand how you can use a glass cutter for just half the door since you would only want to remove the section of wood with the glass.

To be more specific I included a picture of a door. Im going to run the rails through a shaper with a 1/2" cutter to create a groove. This will run the length of the rail A & B. The upper portion of the door (A) will have 1/4" laminated glass (C).

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When I run this through my shaper, I can add a glass cutter to allow a stop to be added for the glass (C) but that would also remove the material from rail B which I need. Also, while I could use the 1/8" tape suggested, I think it would look poor up close if the tape was just on rail A and not on the other 3 sides of the glass and It doesn't seem to make sense to cut 1/2" bead/stop in the center dividers and backfill with tape.

I have been looking at door plans, and youtube videos, but I always see 1/2" grooves and 1/2" glass used, or they just assemble the door and use a router to cut out the groove for the glass and use no T&G for the rails and styles.

For example:

http://woodarchivist.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/2923-Build-Front-Door-2.jpg

I can see in that plan they are using 1/2" glass, and they have a 1/2" groove with a stop on the right panel. Its not clear how they removed the excess material from the rails to add the stop so precisely.

Another example from Freud R&S set:

https://www.ptreeusa.com/PDF/EDMS-Instructions.pdf

They also cut 1/2" grooves and use 1/2" glass.

Thanks for the help!

[derek labian]

Hi Kevin,

Yeah, I have a glass cutter, but it would cut the entire rail, not just the glass portion. I was also considering a flush trim bit, but I expect you would assemble the door FIRST, and then flush trim the glass area after. Any thoughts on the 1/4" glass in the 1/2" groove?

Derek

[Jim Becker]

Get a double pane sealed window unit for the door...it will be typically .5" thick so can use the same groove as your .5" thick lower panel. Mixing the thicknesses makes for a huge amount of work for you and using the double glass panel is more energy efficient, too.

[Jared Sankovich]

The stop is sized to accommodate the thinner glass. Either way you have to remove 1/2 of the sticking to create a rabbit where the glass will be installed. There is no way to seal the glass (glazing tape or wet sealant) to the door otherwise.

Just assemble the door then remove the sticking and create the rabbit with a router.


Is this going to be a SDL Applied grid or real TDL?

[David Sochar]

Am I missing something? The rails and stiles are all profiled with full profile sticking. A plow is made at the same time, or before or after profiling. Then a straight cutter is mounted in the shaper and set so as to remove the sticking on what will be the inside of the door. The sticking is removed only in the upper 3/5 of the door stiles, with a cut that passes the sticking at the top rail, but removes said sticking down to the mid rail, where that cut stops just short of where the mid rail intersects the stile. Rails will get the same cut, but thru the length, no need to stop and start.
Assemble the door and measure for your glass. When setting the glass (in RTV sealant), apply the sealant around the perimeter, and allow squeezeout. Also apply a thin bead of sealant on the inside of the glass, just before you set the stops in place. Squeezeout allowed. Cleran it up in 36 hrs with a new, sharp razor blade.

Dave Sochar
www.acornwoodworks.com

[derek labian]

Get a double pane sealed window unit for the door...it will be typically .5" thick so can use the same groove as your .5" thick lower panel. Mixing the thicknesses makes for a huge amount of work for you and using the double glass panel is more energy efficient, too.

Hi Jim,

We were going to do that but the design of the door doesn't allow for that because those panes require 7/16th inch recess. Thats why we are going with single pane security glass.

[derek labian]

Is this going to be a SDL Applied grid or real TDL?

TDL, or at least that was the plan. The center dividers were going to be 1" wide, hence the problem with double pane windows needing to be recessed 7/16th inch.

The door also has some architectural glass that's curved around some curved styling.

Have you had luck with SDL having the same "aesthetic" as TDL?

[derek labian]

Am I missing something?

I'm sure its me thats missing something :)


The sticking is removed only in the upper 3/5 of the door stiles, with a cut that passes the sticking at the top rail, but removes said sticking down to the mid rail, where that cut stops just short of where the mid rail intersects the stile.

I'm not sure how this is done, so I guess thats part of my question. How do you make a cut that "passes" part of the rail but removes it from the rest? When I pass the rail through the shaper, it will cut the entire rail the same.

[Jim Becker]

Hi Jim,

We were going to do that but the design of the door doesn't allow for that because those panes require 7/16th inch recess. Thats why we are going with single pane security glass.

I recently used five of these panels...one in a door and four in fixed windows and they were pretty much spot on .5" thick which is what you indicated you needed for your fixed panels. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something and I apologize for that.

[Jared Sankovich]

Its a stopped cut. You would plunge the work into the cut and pull it out of the cut at a specific point

Rather than try to explain, its outlined here
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?276895-quot-Drop-cutting-quot-on-a-shaper

[Kevin Jenness]

Hi Kevin,

Yeah, I have a glass cutter, but it would cut the entire rail, not just the glass portion. I was also considering a flush trim bit, but I expect you would assemble the door FIRST, and then flush trim the glass area after. Any thoughts on the 1/4" glass in the 1/2" groove?

Derek

If you were to machine the door using the glass cutter both the panels and glass would be secured with loose stops. To use the same depth molding on both as stops, use 1/2" glass or pad out the glass with glazing tape. You can also use stops of a different depth for the two materials.

If using a flush trim bit you would assemble the door first then waste the molding where needed. The joint will look "wrong" because there is a section of short grain between the sash bar end and the rabbet which would not be there if using the glass cutter. David and Jared explained another way to confine the loose stops to the glazed area.

For true divided lights with insulated units you typically need a wide muntin. There is one outfit here in VT that does narrow sightline IGU's for traditional appearance fenestration. https://www.greenmtninsulatedglass.com/

For SDL's, a loose sash bar is typically adhered to the glass over the internal divider using glazing tape. The cost is less, but the look is different. If you are in a cold winter location, insulated glass is a better choice than single pane.

[derek labian]

I recently used five of these panels...one in a door and four in fixed windows and they were pretty much spot on .5" thick which is what you indicated you needed for your fixed panels. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something and I apologize for that.

Hi Jim,

The double pane panels are 1/2" thick, however they need to be recessed 7/16" on both sides, so an 8" wide window needs to be 8 7/8" wide. That is a real problem for center dividers in a TDL window that are only 1" wide.

[derek labian]

Hi Kevin,


You can also use stops of a different depth for the two materials.

I considered that, but I couldn't find anyone building that way, so I thought it wasn't terribly acceptable. Thanks for clarifying.


If you are in a cold winter location

I looked at the temp differential, its extreme between single pane up to double pane argon filled Low-E glass. But we are in Texas and there is no direct light. I think the Single pane laminated will be ok.


The cost is less, but the look is different.

Thank you for clarifying the look.

[derek labian]

Its a stopped cut. You would plunge the work into the cut and pull it out of the cut at a specific point

Rather than try to explain, its outlined here
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?276895-quot-Drop-cutting-quot-on-a-shaper

Hi Jared,

Thanks for the tip. This was very helpful (at 19min):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n6yTHMBX54

Seems like it could be hard to this well with an 8' rail but it's certainly an option. Thank you!

[Kevin Jenness]

If you do a stopped cut starting in the middle of a workpiece it is a good idea to have a fence extension with a stop for the heel of the piece to forestall kickback.

[Jim Becker]

Hi Jim,

The double pane panels are 1/2" thick, however they need to be recessed 7/16" on both sides, so an 8" wide window needs to be 8 7/8" wide. That is a real problem for center dividers in a TDL window that are only 1" wide.
I did applied grids...one pane of glass for the entire width required for the door (and windows).

[lowell holmes]

Just a thought.
When facing an issue like this, I experiment with scrap wood. After two or three tries, I know what to do.

[derek labian]

Thanks Kevin & Lowell.

[lowell holmes]

Also, consider using high strength glass.

https://www.google.com/search?q=high+strength+window+glass&oq=high+strength+window+glass&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i22i30j0i390l3.18849j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

[Bradley Gray]

Resource Conservation sells self adhesive foam for mounting glass that compresses to 1/8".

Mount glass between 2 strips and you have 1/2".

[Kevin Jenness]

Also, consider using high strength glass.

https://www.google.com/search?q=high+strength+window+glass&oq=high+strength+window+glass&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i22i30j0i390l3.18849j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Lowell makes a good point, although you shouldn't just consider using tempered or laminated glass- it's required by code.

[derek labian]

To wrap up this thread, I finished the doors some time ago, just haven't had time to circle back. Thank you for all the help with questions I had in making these doors.

After a lot of research and design, I ended up going with SIPO dominos for the joinery for both rails/styles and muntins and mullions. (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?289297-Replacing-Short-Tenons-with-Dominos-on-an-Entry-Door)

The white oak that warped (another thread) never did straiten out. I had to start over with two other pieces.

I also decided on 1/4" security glass. 24 panes, 22 rectangles and 2 architectural.

I used a poor sealer and marine spar varnish (clear).

Here are some pics of the final product. :) I included my plan for anyone interested.

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