Riving Knife - How Important is it?

[peter lent]

I am (still) in the market for a table saw for my project of re-building my shop. My old table saw was a Ridgid 3612 and did not have a riving knife.

I am looking at a sub $700 budget for the table saw, so that leaves me a few options. A new Ridgid TS4520, new Delta 36-725T2 or buying a used TS. I have ruled out buying a JobSite saw (thanks for the feedback). I am a part time hobby WW, mainly doing house projects, shop projects, and making signs and cutting boards.

Most of the used TS I am looking at do NOT have a built in Riving Knife. As I get older, I want to ensure I am as safe as possible. I would love to buy a SS, but the budget is not there.

I know I can install a splitter, but that is not the same as a riving knife.

WWYD?

Thanks!

[Michael Drew]

I don't think splinters that tilt with the blade can be added, can they?

Personally, I'd take a good riving knife set up over any of the aftermarket anti-kickback devices you can buy. And yes, I probably own one of each.....include the Jessem fence mounted rollers. My next saw will most definitely have a riving knife.

[peter lent]

I don't think splinters that tilt with the blade can be added, can they?

Personally, I'd take a good riving knife set up over any of the aftermarket anti-kickback devices you can buy. And yes, I probably own one of each.....include the Jessem fence mounted rollers. My next saw will most definitely have a riving knife.

NO, I am not aware of any aftermarket Splitter jigs that will accomodate tilt.

[Robert Engel]

With our budget I wouldn't pass on a good used saw just b/c it doesn't have a riving knife.

Splitters work. I have microjig on both my saws, but you can also make them. They don't tilt, but that's <5% of what you do on a ts.

[Alan Schwabacher]

As long as you make sure it's there, a splitter works well. An older Delta saw like the 34-444 will let the splitter tilt with the blade. It just won't go up and down with the blade as a riving knife does.

[Larry Wilson]

Once you have had a kickback you'll understand how crucial a riving knife is for safety. I left mine off one time and proceeded to cut a bunch of plywood. Next thing I know there was a piece launched at my stomach. Big welt and major owie! Make sure the saw you buy has one. If you don't, you might reget it someday.

[roger wiegand]

Last I checked the Biesemeyer splitter on my PM66 tilts along with the blade. It doesn't go up and down with the blade so you do have to pop it off if you're not cutting all the way through your board, and the anti-kickback pawls hit the table when you tilt it too far. You can also bend it by tilting the blade with a zero clearance insert in place :rolleyes:. So, not perfect, but all in all a really good solution for a saw that didn't originally come with a riving knife. I'm not sure whether a similar product is still sold. I'm happy to have mine.

[peter lent]

The desire for a true/real Riving knife is one of the reasons I first considered a job site style saw with the budget I have. I really like the Dewalts DWE7491 and the Riving knife, but it is still a job site saw :-)

What to do, what to do....

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Peter, I have a Ridgid TS-3650 which has a stock "spitter" as part of the blade guard. One day ripping some white oak, I watched the oak pinch on the splitter and it made me grateful for splitters and riving knives! I can only imagine how hard that would come back into my body as quickly and as stiffly it was pinching that splitter! IF I ever have need to replace this saw, it's replacement will have a riving knife. BTW, I only remove my blade guard and thus the attached splitter when I am doing "non-through" cuts, an example of which would be using my dado set.

[David Stone (CT)]

What to do, what to do....

If I were you, I would look for a used Unisaw or other cabinet saw that is compatible with an aftermarket splitter like what Shark Guard sells, which you can buy and add separately.

I hear you on the desire to work safely:When I got started, basically nobody in hobby/craft woodworking used a splitter or riving knife (check out 1980s/1990s-era issues of Fine Woodworking to see what I mean), because the factory-supplied splitters were poorly-executed, a hassle to take on and off and attached to clunky guards that were borderline unusable, and the riving knife design did not exist on saws accessible to hobbyists. About 25 years ago, I realized I was tempting fate and being stupid, and bought an aftermarket splitter for the Delta contractor saw I had at the time. That worked well and I would never use a saw that did not have a splitter or riving knife installed now, even though that was the normal state of affairs when I learned.

As others have mentioned, the internal design of these older cabinet and contractor saws means that a splitter inherently sticks up above the blade and therefore must be removed for non-through cuts or (typically) use of a cross-cut sled, then put back for rips. The aftermarket ones, like the Biesemeyer I had or I assume the Shark Guard, have a good quick-release design that makes this on-and-off quick and easy and therefore feasible, whereas it was not with the OEM splitter/guard that came with the saw back in the bad old days. The riving knife design is definitely better and more practical still, in that that top of the riving knife can sit a hair below the top of the blade, meaning it never has to come off and therefore there's not a temptation to operate without it... but the functionality is similar and anyway I seriously doubt you are going to find a used saw with a riving knife in your price range.

[David Stone (CT)]

What to do, what to do....

If I were you, I would look for a used Unisaw or other cabinet saw that is compatible with an aftermarket splitter like what Shark Guard sells, which you can buy and add separately.

I hear you on the desire to work safely:When I got started, basically nobody in hobby/craft woodworking used a splitter or riving knife (check out 1980s/1990s-era issues of Fine Woodworking to see what I mean), because the factory-supplied splitters were poorly-executed, a hassle to take on and off and attached to clunky guards that were borderline unusable, and the riving knife design did not exist on saws accessible to hobbyists. About 25 years ago, I realized I was tempting fate and being stupid, and bought an aftermarket splitter for the Delta contractor saw I had at the time. That worked well and I would never use a saw that did not have a splitter or riving knife now, even though that was the normal state of affairs when I learned.

As others have mentioned, the internal design of these older cabinet and contractor saws means that a splitter inherently sticks up above the blade and therefore must be removed for non-through cuts or use of a cross-cut sled, then put back for rips. The aftermarket ones, like the Biesemeyer I had or I assume the Shark Guard, have a good quick-release design that makes this on-and-off feasible, whereas it was not with the OEM splitter/guard that came with the saw back in the bad old days. The riving knife design is better and more practical still, in that it never has to come off and therefore there's not a temptation to operate without it... but the functionality is similar and anyway I seriously doubt you are going to find a used saw with a riving knife in your price range.

[Mike Henderson]

It's only newer saws that have true riving knives. If you feel strongly that you want a true riving knife, you may have to go with a jobsite saw.

But splitters also work. They're not as good as a riving knife because you have to remove them for certain types of cuts but you CAN use them for the vase majority of cuts.

At your price range, I'd buy used and make sure you can put a good splitter on your saw. Maybe in the future you'll be able to purchase a SS.

Mike

[Also, indicate your location. Someone may have a saw they could sell you.]

[glenn bradley]

The desire for a true/real Riving knife is one of the reasons I first considered a job site style saw with the budget I have. I really like the Dewalts DWE7491 and the Riving knife, but it is still a job site saw :-)

What to do, what to do....

I feel reasonably safe with a splitter in place. Certainly a riving knife that stays a set amount of distance from the blade is better. My Saw Stop has an RK, my hybrid does not. I am just as careful on either saw ;-) I would feel fine with a better quality used saw than with a shiny new cheap-o saw. The current requirement for riving knives on tablesaws is a little light on specs. The RK's I've seen on jobsite saws wouldn't stop much if things went sideways.

[peter lent]

Thanks for the feedback. I have found a couple used Ridgid 4512/4520 in my area for sale for around $500, and they include a true Riving Knife. I think I would prefer a used Ridgid over the new Delta, just due to all the motor issues with the Delta.

I am located in So Cal (Temecula)

Thanks!


It's only newer saws that have true riving knives. If you feel strongly that you want a true riving knife, you may have to go with a jobsite saw.

But splitters also work. They're not as good as a riving knife because you have to remove them for certain types of cuts but you CAN use them for the vase majority of cuts.

At your price range, I'd buy used and make sure you can put a good splitter on your saw. Maybe in the future you'll be able to purchase a SS.

Mike

[Also, indicate your location. Someone may have a saw they could sell you.]

[Michael Drew]

I have a mid 90's Unisaw. I had a Rigid contractor's saw before that. The Rigid was a descent saw, but the cabinet saw is so much nicer.... David Stone's comments reminded me why I installed the Biesemeyer splitter. The guard was a PITA to use, so I pitched it into the dumpster. It didn't take long before I installed the splitter though. A couple kickbacks with a 3HP saw will wake you up and drive the need to prevent that act of violence from occurring again, real quick. The Biesemeyer splitter is pretty convenient, and it tilts with the blade, but it does not raise/lower. It just snaps into place, but you have to remove the blade insert to release it. It also has hanging paws as an extra anti-kickback device. They don't work work a crap with the blade tilted, or if ripping narrow pieces. I ended up cutting them off..... Feather boards are helpful, but do not work as well as the splitter. I dunno.....I empathize with your predicament, but if you can find a used cabinet saw with a riving knife set up, I'd go that route over your other options. Even if you have to move your budget upwards a bit. I bet you can find something in the $1000 range, if willing to spend a day driving to get it.

[Michael Drew]

Last I checked the Biesemeyer splitter on my PM66 tilts along with the blade. It doesn't go up and down with the blade so you do have to pop it off if you're not cutting all the way through your board, and the anti-kickback pawls hit the table when you tilt it too far. You can also bend it by tilting the blade with a zero clearance insert in place :rolleyes:. So, not perfect, but all in all a really good solution for a saw that didn't originally come with a riving knife. I'm not sure whether a similar product is still sold. I'm happy to have mine.

I have the Biesemeyer on my Unisaw. It just donned on me that it's a splitter, and not a riving knife. I guess the distinction is that the true riving knife stays with the blade, up/down and tilt?

[Michael W. Clark]

I have an older Grizzly 1023, I think it is a very similar design to the Unisaw. The shark guard splitter attaches to the place where the OEM splitter attaches. It tilts with the blade but doesn’t go up and down. It sits just above the table and is easy to remove and replace.

The anti kickback pawls are cumbersome, I don’t use those. I prefer feather boards.

[Vince Shriver]

Peter, I have a Ridgid TS-3650 which has a stock "spitter" as part of the blade guard. One day ripping some white oak, I watched the oak pinch on the splitter and it made me grateful for splitters and riving knives! I can only imagine how hard that would come back into my body as quickly and as stiffly it was pinching that splitter! IF I ever have need to replace this saw, it's replacement will have a riving knife. BTW, I only remove my blade guard and thus the attached splitter when I am doing "non-through" cuts, an example of which would be using my dado set.

I had the RK that came with my new T/S cut down so it elevates below the height of the 10" blade. I also use another unmodified RK from replacement parts which supports the blade guard for normal cuts.

[Marc Fenneuff]

I have the Biesemeyer on my Unisaw. It just donned on me that it's a splitter, and not a riving knife. I guess the distinction is that the true riving knife stays with the blade, up/down and tilt?

Correct. Besides hugging the backside of the blade to make it even more effective than a splitter, since it travels with the blade there's less of a reason for the operator to remove it for certain cuts. I have a Shark Guard on my old cabinet saw and make every cut that I can with it in place.

I too would recommend to the OP that if a SawStop is not in the budget, research and find a good-condition vintage saw and put a splitter on it. Thats what I did last year.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Good grief, threads like this make me wonder how any of us older guys ever lived through the near 100% mortality rate of using a saw without a riving knife and hot dog saving features. It's even more shocking that the ones who did, have enough digits left to type.

Based on my extensive research on the subject by way of tablesaw time measured in 100's of miles, I can offer a few real world observations that most of you will promptly ignore as rantings of an angry old man. First, when a kerf closes on a blade that does not have a riving knife, it generally just locks up the blade and stops the saw. If you are holding the stock down, nothing happens. Second, when an off cut hits a spinning blade from the back, it can take flight, unless you are holding the stock down. Third, when a cut jambs because of an alignment issue, the stock can climb the blade and take flight, unless you are holding the stock down. Note the common cure, hold the dang stock down. Woods heavy, and generally it does this fine on its own unless you are doing something stupid with your tablesaw operating form. If you are, you probably need to pay the stupid fine and buy a SS or get a different hobby that does not include sharp objects.

If you think you need a SS, then you will be unhappy and whiney about anything else. For us few survivors of the pre SS/riving knife era left, we will happily enjoy the cheap second hand used tools being sold by you. Oh, I highly recommend one of you looking to discard a PM66 to make way for your new SS get a hold of me, I'll be happy to get it out of your shop for a nominal fee.

[Jim Becker]

Steve, while it's very true that many of us have survived over the years and taking care helps to prevent accidents, I can absolutely appreciate the desire for something that adds some safety and a riving knife really does that. It can stay on the saw for non-through cuts as well as tilted cuts, leaves little or no room for something to get caught between it and the blade and because of these things, the most important feature is that folks actually are more inclined to leave them on the saw which reduces the chance of kickback/pinching, etc.. The splitters that predated were cumbersome so a "large percentage" of them likely landed in the trash. So yea...it's ok for someone to want that.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Jim, nothing against riving knives, they are the least obnoxious of the type. What I'm railing against is the thought that all saws without them or SS are in some way not capable tools. That mindset is hooey.

[Kevin Jenness]

What I'm railing against is the thought that all saws without them or SS are in some way not capable tools. That mindset is hooey.

You are railing against a straw man. None of the posters on this thread said anything like that. Injuries can happen even to non-stupid people. A saw with a splitter, or better a riving knife, is safer than without- in my opinion. No-one is going to make you use one in your own shop. Remain calm, all is well.

[Tom M King]

I stayed out of the conversation because I've been using table saws since 1965, and have never used one with any kind of safety device on it. Still have all ten fingers, and never had a close call. I don't want that to influence anyone else's decision, but some of us have managed to get by.

[Michael W. Clark]

I don't have near the mileage Steve does but I have seen similar with hard maple on a 5HP cabinet saw. It starts closing after the blade and saw changes sound, it cuts through it if you keep it on the table.

I keep a splitter on mine when I'm not doing through cuts. A non-through cut would have minimal kickback chance anyway.

The one time I got hit by a piece was using a sled for cross cutting and the small offcut got over in the back of blade, went airborne and hit me in the lip. Now I hold down the offcut or stand to the side.

I can't stand to watch the guys using the birds-mouth long push sticks, especially one in each hand. It looks like they are not holding the board down and it could be shot back in their face at any second.

[Mike Henderson]

If you Google for "table saw accidents per year in the US" you'll get numbers between 20,000 and 40,000. I guess it depends on how the data are collected. Anyway, it's a big number.

Any safety device on a saw can help to reduce that number. I chose the SawStop to get both the riving knife and the flesh sensing technology, but a saw with a riving knife is better than one with nothing.

It's easy to say "Just be careful" but even experienced people make mistakes.

Here's one fairly detailed data report:

Table 2

Table saw-attributable injuries sustained by adult and minor patients




Total
Minors
Adults



n
%
n
%
n
%


Finger/Thumb Injuries
10,338
100%
322
3.1%
10,016
96.9%


 Laceration
6,593
63.8%
198
65.1%
6,395
63.9%


 Fracture/Dislocation
1,304
12.6%
47
14.6%
1,257
12.6%


 Amputation
1,442
13.9%
40
12.4%
1,402
14.2%


 Other*
999
9.7%
37
11.5%
962
9.6%



*Other injuries include abrasion, contusion, foreign body, burn, and electrical shock

Mike

[Michael Drew]

Correct. Besides hugging the backside of the blade to make it even more effective than a splitter, since it travels with the blade there's less of a reason for the operator to remove it for certain cuts. I have a Shark Guard on my old cabinet saw and make every cut that I can with it in place.

I too would recommend to the OP that if a SawStop is not in the budget, research and find a good-condition vintage saw and put a splitter on it. Thats what I did last year.

Thanks for the clarification.

This splitter I have on my saw does work well, but I often wish it would travel up/down with the blade. It would stay on the machine.

I haven't bothered to look, as I'm not in the market for a new TS.... But is SS the only company making a 10" cabinet saw with a riving knife? I just assumed all manufactures had them nowadays, no??

[Bob Jones 5443]

20 years with a 1990s Unisaw here. Reading this thread actually did make we want to get a riving knife. Then I (re)discovered that my saw won't accommodate one. Oh well.

I took off the blade guard/anti-kickback pawls 19 years ago because I couldn't make narrow cuts, crosscuts, or dados with it.

Since then I have had one kickback with a bad outcome, due 100% to my unnecessary and unthinking move. I won't bore you with it here. At exactly one other time, a board I thought was ready for the saw was actually warped and closed in on itself behind the blade, so the back of the blade wanted to kick it back at me. It didn't; it just whined and groaned and I kneed the saw off. This taught me the importance of four-square stock.

Those two events made me a different table saw operator. More often than not if I'm about to try an unusual operation, a little silent alarm goes off that triggers several minutes of operation redesign. I absolutely never proceed with a cut that I don't know with certainty is safe. That goes for the router table, band saw, jointer, and even the drill press. As a hobbyist I can afford the time for reflection. Several times I've taken the opportunity to make a jig customized for the cut. Measure twice, spend "all day" on the jig, and make the cut in ten seconds. I find more gratification than frustration in that.

I made a splitter that bolts into the boss behind the blade. It's a mild pain to put in and take out, but it's stored right at arm's length. I'll use it for long, narrow rips when using a feather board. Feather board in front keeps the board entering the blade correctly; splitter behind keeps it from bending inward. I use the splitter maybe 2% of the time. The rest of the time I'm in Tom's camp, and in the polite corner of Steve's.

Stay safe, everyone. I got lucky and still have 9.98 fingers and holding.

[Tom Trees]

If you're using a shoe instead, then make sure it's long enough for the job.
The European HSE guidelines on this side of the drink, state one of those shoe style types, need to be 400mm long, so you don't end up with your hand over the blade.
I don't know if it is for all saws, like for instance a smaller job site machine, but I'd sooner use two pushsticks for a machine like that.

One can always make an overarm guard like the Excalibur, if worried about the work flinging back at you.
Keep safe people, no-ones perfect, we all make mistakes, hopefully we never do with the TS.
Can't guarantee that we never will though.
Complacency is as dangerous as the tool is itself.

All the best

Tom

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I may have forgotten some meds this morning.... Not backing off the jist of it, but the tact was a little wanting.

Mike H, forgive me for being dubious about statistics, seems that the only people paying for the compiling also have an angle working. The dizzying swarm of statistics surrounding a recent virus comes to mind. I have another reason, I've personally seen a workers comp claim get miscatagorized. The guy stepped off a roof that we were building on the ground ( fun job to be moved and craned into place) it was 10" high and he messed his ankle up. The injury was coded as a fall off a roof, which I guess it technically was, but it wasn't too. Falling off a roof raises our rates more than tripping does though, so this way the insurance company gets to charge us more premium. Statistics....

[Mike Henderson]

I may have forgotten some meds this morning.... Not backing off the jist of it, but the tact was a little wanting.

Mike H, forgive me for being dubious about statistics, seems that the only people paying for the compiling also have an angle working. The dizzying swarm of statistics surrounding a recent virus comes to mind. I have another reason, I've personally seen a workers comp claim get miscatagorized. The guy stepped off a roof that we were building on the ground ( fun job to be moved and craned into place) it was 10" high and he messed his ankle up. The injury was coded as a fall off a roof, which I guess it technically was, but it wasn't too. Falling off a roof raises our rates more than tripping does though, so this way the insurance company gets to charge us more premium. Statistics....

Statistics on table saw accidents have been collected, categorized and published for a good many years. If they're being faked in some way, it's consistent year-to-year.

And in any case, let's say that it's not 30,000 table saw accidents per year. Let's say it's half that. That's still a lot of people injured and a lot of money spent to treat and rehabilitate the injured. The change to force table saw manufacturers to add a riving knife was a good policy - should have been done years ago.

I expect that some time soon table saws will be required to have flesh sensing technology. If we could get that 20,000 to 40,000 injuries down to even 1,000 injuries per year it would be a substantial accomplishment.

Although a finger can sometimes be reattached, the mobility and feeling in that finger is usually impaired. And the cost to do the reattachment is quite expensive.

Mike

[peter lent]

Wow, I had no idea my question would spark such a great conversation. I really appreciate all the feedback and opinions. For many years, I cut on my dads 1970's Craftsman saw without a single safety device and never had an issue. On my old Ridgid is had a splitter on the back and blade guard, which I never used for the reasons mentioned already many times.

Another big obstacle I have is space. I am very limited in my garage as I share space with existing cabinets, and of course the wife's car. At night the saw will need to be put away, back against the wall.

I think I have narrowed my options. Find a used saw with a splitter in my price range (around $500) like a used Ridgid or Delta Contractor saw (newer model w/Riving Knife), buy the new Delta 36-375T2 or buy the (dont cringe) Dewalt DWE7491 Job Site Saw. the ONLY reason I am even considering the Dewalt is my space limitations. I would build it into a mobile cart to support outfeed, etc. I have a space about 4x6 or so for the saw.
(Like This) 450848

If I get the Delta or a used Contractor Style Saw, I am looking at a set-up like this
450849


Thanks again for the all feedback!

Pete

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Wow, I had no idea my question would spark such a great conversation. I really appreciate all the feedback and opinions. For many years, I cut on my dads 1970's Craftsman saw without a single safety device and never had an issue. On my old Ridgid is had a splitter on the back and blade guard, which I never used for the reasons mentioned already many times.

Another big obstacle I have is space. I am very limited in my garage as I share space with existing cabinets, and of course the wife's car. At night the saw will need to be put away, back against the wall.

I think I have narrowed my options. Find a used saw with a splitter in my price range (around $500) like a used Ridgid or Delta Contractor saw (newer model w/Riving Knife), buy the new Delta 36-375T2 or buy the (dont cringe) Dewalt DWE7491 Job Site Saw. the ONLY reason I am even considering the Dewalt is my space limitations. I would build it into a mobile cart to support outfeed, etc. I have a space about 4x6 or so for the saw.
(Like This) 450848

If I get the Delta or a used Contractor Style Saw, I am looking at a set-up like this
450849


Thanks again for the all feedback!

Pete

Pete, for what it's worth, I actually have versions of or all those exact saws in my shop right now. An older version of the Delta. In my opinion, the little Dewalts are good saws. They have a little table a good fence and are very portable. Lots of good there. The Ridgid is fine, but the Delta contractor is better. I personally started this woodworking journey with a Delta contractor saw with a Biesemeyer fence, and I have a serious nostalgic connection to them. Good solid saws, easy to put on wheels, dust collection takes a little fiddling, my pick of your list.

I'd offer another choice though, for $500 and some patience you can get a used cabinet saw, put it on a good base, add a fold down outfeed table and maybe not the 50" fence, and you will have a really good machine. Delta, Powermatic, Jet, General, and most of the Unisaw clones are good saws. I prefer the PM66 or Unisaw. Happy hunting!

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Statistics on table saw accidents have been collected, categorized and published for a good many years. If they're being faked in some way, it's consistent year-to-year.

And in any case, let's say that it's not 30,000 table saw accidents per year. Let's say it's half that. That's still a lot of people injured and a lot of money spent to treat and rehabilitate the injured. The change to force table saw manufacturers to add a riving knife was a good policy - should have been done years ago.

I expect that some time soon table saws will be required to have flesh sensing technology. If we could get that 20,000 to 40,000 injuries down to even 1,000 injuries per year it would be a substantial accomplishment.

Although a finger can sometimes be reattached, the mobility and feeling in that finger is usually impaired. And the cost to do the reattachment is quite expensive.

Mike

But Mike, it's my finger at risk, not yours. How about we trade, you pick my saw, I pick the house I build for you? Fair, yes?

[Jack Frederick]

How important are splitters? I knew a lady back east who had a kick back that came up and hit her in the head, knocking her out and cutting her badly. Her little boy, about 5, was able to call 911 and get Mom some help. The ease of installation of the splitter on the Sawstop is one of its better features.

[David Kumm]

For people stuck with splitters, it isn't necessary that the splitter be a high piece of metal that needs to be removed a lot. Yes, angled cuts are a problem, but my splitter is 1/2" high and does everything a higher one will, including some non through cuts. The kerf closing isn't relevant on non through cuts anyway and the low splitter also makes it easy to move my feeder in place which I would argue is maybe the best safety device made for a saw. I seldom hand feed any more.450881450882 Dave

[Mike Henderson]

But Mike, it's my finger at risk, not yours. How about we trade, you pick my saw, I pick the house I build for you? Fair, yes?

Steve - I'm not trying to tell you what saw to buy. What I'm saying is that the statistics are generally correct and that table saw accidents cause significant injury and disability to a certain number of people each year - and cost a lot.

My personal belief is that we, as a society, would do well to require table saw manufacturers to build safer machines.

Mike

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Steve - I'm not trying to tell you what saw to buy. What I'm saying is that the statistics are generally correct and that table saw accidents cause significant injury and disability to a certain number of people each year - and cost a lot.

My personal belief is that we, as a society, would do well to require table saw manufacturers to build safer machines.

Mike

Mike, yes you are telling me what saw to buy by striving for only one government approved option. Not wanting to turn this tread into a political issue, which is where it's going, I will leave it at that.

[Tom M King]

I don't need rules to tell me what's safe either.

[Mike Henderson]

Mike, yes you are telling me what saw to buy by striving for only one government approved option. Not wanting to turn this tread into a political issue, which is where it's going, I will leave it at that.

Yes, there are many safety rules that each of us has to follow. In general they are intended to save lives or prevent injury. On a job site there will be many safety rules that OSHA will enforce. Some safety devices, perhaps flesh sensing technology, may be "forced" by the insurance company by charging outrageous rates if you don't use it.

I expect that today you would have trouble purchasing a new model table saw that doesn't have a riving knife. You don't have to use it, just as you don't have to use seat belts, but it comes with the saw. i wouldn't be surprised if one day all new table saws come with flesh sensing technology. I imaging you will be able to disable it if you don't want to use it, but it will be there.

Mike

[Rod Sheridan]

Jim, nothing against riving knives, they are the least obnoxious of the type. What I'm railing against is the thought that all saws without them or SS are in some way not capable tools. That mindset is hooey.

They’re capable tools Steve, they’re just not safe, that’s what’s under discussion here....Regards, Rod

[Dave Opsahl]

.... i wouldn't be surprised if one day all new table saws come with flesh sensing technology. I imaging you will be able to disable it if you don't want to use it, but it will be there.

Mike

I was always taught that the government has no business protecting me from myself. While I appreciate the perspective on safety, I don’t know why I should have to pay an additional $1K+ just to turn off something I didn’t want in the first place.

The government making the type of saw I choose to purchase illegal to sell or manufacture is overreaching in my book. Job site safety they can have at all day long; it’s a different situation altogether. YMMV.

[Mike Henderson]

I was always taught that the government has no business protecting me from myself. While I appreciate the perspective on safety, I don’t know why I should have to pay an additional $1K+ just to turn off something I didn’t want in the first place.

The government making the type of saw I choose to purchase illegal to sell or manufacture is overreaching in my book. Job site safety they can have at all day long; it’s a different situation altogether. YMMV.

Well, there are a lot of protections that are mandated by government. Some are tool safety, some are financial safety, some are transportation safety, etc. Regarding tool safety, there are regulations that came into effect long ago, such as double insulated tools to keep you from getting electrocuted. One day, there may be regulations and protections on table saws to help prevent you from cutting off your finger(s). That's just the way things progress.

Mike

[Tom Trees]

Presuming the innards of those old Powermatic's, Unisaw's, General's and other old iron is built like tanks.
Can you not grind a flat and/or weld up a bracket somewhere to make a true riving knife for these machines?

Tom

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Presuming the innards of those old Powermatic's, Unisaw's, General's and other old iron is built like tanks.
Can you not grind a flat and/or weld up a bracket somewhere to make a true riving knife for these machines?

Tom

Yes, a creative person sure could tap a couple bolt holes in the arbor bracket I think and come up with a true riving knife. At least on the Unisaw I just looked at you could. I personally use a version of the splitter like what David posted if I feel it's useful at the time.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

They’re capable tools Steve, they’re just not safe, that’s what’s under discussion here....Regards, Rod

Hi Rod, SS or riving knives? About half of the saws in my shop have riving knives, including the Felder. They do work with minimal interference, and I definitely leave them on if it's an option. However, I don't feel like my life is in jeopardy if I'm using one of the old school saws.

SS do have nice fit and finish, and seem like quality saws all around. Nothing against that part, I just despise big brother "looking out" for me, and I'd personally never put up with a safety feature that would cause trouble for a huge proportion of what we do in a day. Wet lumber? Boom, triggered the brake. Pressure treated, metal, dado, etc and you are spending more time messing around with the machine than using it. Hard to make money doing that. There is also the hot dog factor, I'm acquaintances with the high school shop teacher, and they have several brake fires per year from kids sticking something in it just to see if it works. Think about that, some of those are actually fingers that they are using. I'm sure that stupidity would happen in my shop to some extent too thanks to immature employees. Better to just know that the saw will mess you up and treat it with respect.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Yes, there are many safety rules that each of us has to follow. In general they are intended to save lives or prevent injury. On a job site there will be many safety rules that OSHA will enforce. Some safety devices, perhaps flesh sensing technology, may be "forced" by the insurance company by charging outrageous rates if you don't use it.

I expect that today you would have trouble purchasing a new model table saw that doesn't have a riving knife. You don't have to use it, just as you don't have to use seat belts, but it comes with the saw. i wouldn't be surprised if one day all new table saws come with flesh sensing technology. I imaging you will be able to disable it if you don't want to use it, but it will be there.

Mike

Mike, those horrible splitters and pawls of the past were mandated by the government/insurance companies/lawyers too. I wonder how anyone could actually hurt themselves with the mandated safety gear we already have on our saws? It's almost like government safety mandates don't work...., shoot look at that statistics chart on post #26 for proof of my point. ;)

[Mike Henderson]

Mike, those horrible splitters and pawls of the past were mandated by the government/insurance companies/lawyers too. I wonder how anyone could actually hurt themselves with the mandated safety gear we already have on our saws? It's almost like government safety mandates don't work...., shoot look at that statistics chart on post #26 for proof of my point. ;)

They certainly don't work if you don't use them and a lot of people didn't. That's perhaps the biggest advantage of a riving knife - you never have to take it off.

Mike

[Randy Heinemann]

A splitter is certainly a step in the right direction, but I doubt it would provide the same level of protection. I invested in a jobsite saw a couple of years ago and never regretted it. From the reviews I've seen, the Bosch or Dewalt are solid saws. The Sawstop is also a great saw (but above your cost limits right now, but somewhat safer because of the blade brake feature). The reasons I like my jobsite saw are that it serves about 90% of my tablesaw needs but has a somewhat smaller footprint, is movable around the shop, and can be folded up on its included stand and moved out of the way completely if I need my central floor space for something else. Of course, nothing will replace a good quality cabinet saw and, if you do a lot of sheet goods work, it is difficult on a saw with a table that small. The only drawbacks I've found with my jobsite saw is the included miter gauge and the smaller distance in front of the blade. Upgrading the miter gauge is easy with the variety of upgraded gauges on the market these days. The distance in front of the blade is only resolvable by using some temporary infeed support for longer boards, but it has only been a problem on rare occasions for me. The jobsite saws currently sold are great saws. I've never regretted buying mine.

[peter lent]

Thansk Randy for the information. What brand of JS saw do you have? How does it handle ripping 6/4 or 8/4 hardwood? I want to start making cutting boards, and most of the stock will be (short) lengths of 6/4 or 8/4.

For sheet goods, I normally break them down with my CS, or will be bying a track saw for that. I am much more comfortable breaking down sheet goods with a CS.

Thanks!

Pete



A splitter is certainly a step in the right direction, but I doubt it would provide the same level of protection. I invested in a jobsite saw a couple of years ago and never regretted it. From the reviews I've seen, the Bosch or Dewalt are solid saws. The Sawstop is also a great saw (but above your cost limits right now, but somewhat safer because of the blade brake feature). The reasons I like my jobsite saw are that it serves about 90% of my tablesaw needs but has a somewhat smaller footprint, is movable around the shop, and can be folded up on its included stand and moved out of the way completely if I need my central floor space for something else. Of course, nothing will replace a good quality cabinet saw and, if you do a lot of sheet goods work, it is difficult on a saw with a table that small. The only drawbacks I've found with my jobsite saw is the included miter gauge and the smaller distance in front of the blade. Upgrading the miter gauge is easy with the variety of upgraded gauges on the market these days. The distance in front of the blade is only resolvable by using some temporary infeed support for longer boards, but it has only been a problem on rare occasions for me. The jobsite saws currently sold are great saws. I've never regretted buying mine.

[David Kumm]

Riving knife or not, a job site saw for 8/4 hardwood isn't the right tool. you want a heavier build, induction motor, solid fence that holds settings and a standard kerf blade that won't give when stressed and render the riving knife useless. A riving knife needs to be sized thicker than the plate of the blade and thick is better than thin for both. Dave

[Curt Putnam]

Some years ago, a guy (whose name I have forgotten) made a video where he deliberately induced a kick back. Somehow or other his hand was nearly drawn into the blade, despite the fact that he was prepared and knew when it would start.

I remember when turn signals came out for cars. People complained that it was an unnecessary expense and that hand signals were perfectly fine. The screaming when seat belts were introduced was loud and an long. Same thing occurred with motorcycle helmets.

If we can prevent injury, then why not do so? There is a cost to society when people get injured. There is the obvious ER costs, follow -up treatment costs, lost productivity, etc. At the moment, one can purchase a saw without the latest technology if so desired. Safety devices can be removed and used or not as one sees fit. Given the freedom of choice with which we are blessed, why do folks get so worked up? The question is moot.

Legal mandates are another story but no one has called for them yet.

[peter lent]

Thanks David. I think I knew that the JS saw was too small. I am 99% convinced I will be buying the Delta Contractor Saw from Lowes. For $600, there does not seem to be anything else in the market that has what I want for the price. Thanks again! Pete

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Legal mandates are another story but no one has called for them yet.

Yes they have, SS has actually done exactly that. That was the first attempt at "selling" the SS technology, prior to actually building a decent saw.

[Roger Feeley]

When I was in college in the '70s studying to teach shop there was a piece in the news that made the rounds. Some rural school had a WWII surplus table saw. It was a beast. 3-phase and a 14" blade. The story went that some kid was sawing a piece of 2" oak when internal stresses caused it to bind and kick back. It flew all they way across the shop and impaled a kid.

My teachers then advocated lower HP in power tools. The thinking was that they would bind without causing too much injury. There are good arguments both ways.

Anyway, my saw has a riving knife and it's easy to put in and use so I use it.

[Mike Henderson]

I took woodworking classes at Cerritos College. They had a piece of wood embedded in the wall that was from a kickback. They always pointed it out when discussing table saw safety.

The table saws were all 5HP three phase. Some years after I took the classes they replaced all the table saws with SawStop ICS. I suppose they really had no choice.

Mike