Neighbor posted my property.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

Sheesh. a stream flows across my property for about 1600 ft. At some places I own 40 to 100 ft on the other side and other places 300 ft on the other side. This afternoon, I saw that the guy on the next road over put up no trespassing signs all along the stream. I had a dispute with the prior owner, had the 1,220 foot common line surveyed and marked and sued the prior owner in court and won. This new guy just bought the property a year ago. I went over to introduce myself and the guy just walked away, thought the wife was nice and we talked for just two or three minutes. One of his signs is just ten feet the wrong side of the line. With a orange capped survey marker just ten feet from the sign. No idea what the guy is thinking, but I noticed he already cut some firewood on my side. So I went back to the house and typed a nasty letter to be sent certified and hand served by a constable and then realized maybe the guy just doesn't have a clue. So I typed a nice second letter offering to meet with him and show him the surveyed lines.

What really ticks me off, is he nailed a sign into my largest beech tree, about 32 inches in diameter.

So i called the surveyor to get a copy of the survey (lost my copy in a fire) I'll give the guy a copy along with the offer to meet.

In 23 years, I have had to sue three neighbors over property line disputes. Came home from a three day weekend 20 years ago, to find a neighbor put a fence part way across my pasture. I don't understand how people don't care what they do to other people's property. I never put up a fence or cut down a tree without making sure I was on my own property. Cost me a fortune to have my farm surveyed.

[Malcolm McLeod]

Since ‘reasonable’ may be merely a memory, there is that old saying, “Good fences make good neighbors.”

Failing that, there are signs that say “If you can read this, you’re in range.” :cool:

Good luck to you.

[Michael J Evans]

My mom lost about a acre, because she didn't have her property surveyed before she bought it. It was supposedly in the previous family for over 100 years so they assured her it was all her property. Come to find out the previous owner had been encroaching on the adjacent properties since they were vacant farmland.
Technically her acre long driveway was no longer hers, but oddly enough she gained like a quarter acre square on the other side of the neighbors fence.

[Ed Aumiller]

BEWARE... do not know your location... in Virginia if you use without explicit permission land for 15 years, you can claim ownership of the land under "adverse possession"...
Had a neighbor lose a former store/house because of this. The property adjoining mine (40 acres) was very close to being taken from them under similar conditions...

Get a lawyer to protect your interests.....

Do not know laws in other states, but probably similar....

Know in Pennsylvania when I was in high school (early -1960's) a path across a field next to the school
was being closed to build a house, but because it had been in use for over 20 years,
they could not close it or build the house...

Look up the laws in your state....

In Virginia, if someone cuts trees on your property (for firewood or lumber) they have to pay SEVERE damages to replace them..
.so you could get paid for the firewood they cut...

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

I said I sued three neighbors over the years. I still have my license to practice law. I can inflict financially painful litigation on people who get me riled. Was a trial lawyer for 45 years. Adverse possession in PA requires 21 years and a fence or other means to exclude others. Pa has a stiff, but not severe enough law about tree rustling. three times the value of the trees and attorney's fees, last I checked. However under our new law. I can paint purple stripes on my trees along the boundary and that is the same as a sign. In addition, once the purple lines are up, since the land is used to grow marketable timber, entry is agricultural trespassing, a misdemeanor with possible jail time. I'd still rather be amicable about it. Never know when I might need him or vice versa. Search for lost animals etc. Wait till he finds out I have a deeded easement across his property. That was not included in his deed.

[Scott Winners]

Location is important. Most of the Eastern USA, English common law prevails for items not specifically enumerated in the state code. Louisiana uses French common law, and some of the southwest relies on Spanish common law.

I called my local government about a fence dispute with a neighbor, FWIW English common law prevails in Alaska as well, I wasn't sure if it might have been Russian common law since Seward bought the joint from them. Both my grandpas grew up in English common law states and built a lot of fence back in the day.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

our civil trespass law is under the Common law. Our criminal trespass law is statutory. But there is a stupid patchwork of different laws, Plain criminal trespass, motor vehicle trespass, atv trespass, agricultural trespass, even get this, trespass by air plane. Our statutes even makes the penalties different depending on who makes the arrest. Most people do not even know that we have a civil trespass to land law in PA. It covers all kinds of stuff, like who owns a tree, who can trim a tree, who can develop a cave, your right to sue a person for entering your property, etc.

[Jim Matthews]

I'd still rather be amicable about it. Never know when I might need him or vice versa. Search for lost animals etc.

That's forward thinking, and commendable.
I gather the new neighbor is young, and doesn't know how little he knows.

As I get older, I find a growing desire to have less appealing. Stewardship of land has an endless punchline of things that take an hour or two.

[Tom M King]

I like state roads for property borders.

[Ole Anderson]

Often adverse possession requires that he can show that the original owner knew of the trespass but did nothing. That is why you need to formally document your claim to him that he is trespassing.

[Zachary Hoyt]

In NY the adverse possession law was done away with ten years or so ago, or that was what I heard at the time. I'm not a lawyer so I don't really understand anything definitely.

[Jim Becker]

I think I'd put up at least a simple fence to delineate that area of your property that's on the other side of the creek, as it were. A lot of folks seem to assume that a natrual feature like a creek or a tree line is the property border when that is not the case. I had that situation a couple years ago when the neighbor to the immediate south assumed that the tree line was the line but it was in fact about 6' closer to their building. Needless to say, they had to move their fence, but fortunately, were cooperative. I was easily able to find the survey pin with my little metal detector to help establish the line.

But yea...ask nice first. And if things are not adjusted, well...you already are prepared for next steps which involve a more formal response.

[Don Coffman]

Be careful how you handle this situation, I lost a friend with an almost identical dispute, surveys, deeds, attorneys the complete ordeal.
The neighbor brought the grudge to a head with a couple 12ga shotgun blasts while the rightful owner was operating a weedeater on his own property. My friend a retired DEA agent was killed, the neighbor resides in prison.

[Clifford McGuire]

I said I sued three neighbors over the years. I still have my license to practice law. I can inflict financially painful litigation on people who get me riled..

I hope you can settle it amicably. Being friends with your neighbors is so much better than the alternative.

[mike stenson]

In 23 years, I have had to sue three neighbors over property line disputes.

Fence it....

[Rob Damon]

I believe a lot of these issues are with surveyors and some are people just don't care. People are being sold land and being told where their lines are, when if fact they are not.

When they built the housing project behind our property 30 years ago the realty company told them the 20' wide permanent easement road running the full length was actually theirs, but it was not reflected in the surveyors plot in the deed book. A few people started to fence across the easement and they were told it is not their land. It is the realty companies land that was by deeded a permanent easement as long as it was regularly traveled. (It is travelled across daily.) Everyone on both sides of the easement know they don't own the land but still some use to dump trash/branches and some have put up fences along the back of their properties extending 2' into the easement, reducing it to 18' in some areas. Trying to get along, nobody has said anything.

A old farmer in NC was putting up part of his land for sale. He create two adjacent 40 acre lots. The surveyor came out and marked them out but miss-labeled the parcels. So for 6 years my brother was working one lot and another family was working the other parcel. Then the family decided to sale the land and a new surveyor came out and marked and did a title searched and found they were trying to sale the land belong to my brother and the land my brother was on was owned by the other family. It could have gotten ugly but both had level heads and just did the paperwork to correct the land ownership issue.

The second issue my brother had was his 6500 sf house on lake gaston they bought. The surveyor showed the property line 20' from the side of the house when they went to put a MIL apartment and ramp leaving 5' to the property line. When the Doctor next door went to put his house up for sale a new surveyor found the property line had actually only been only 4' from the house and the MIL addition was 9' onto the Doctors property. In this case also level heads prevailed and the Doctor just sold the strip of land to my brother, before putting the house up for final sale.

So there are still some decent level head people out there.

[Ron Citerone]

A realtor up our way sold some houses on a school district border area and listed them as part of the more desirable district. I think they ended up getting away with it when sued.

[Ron Citerone]

So there are still some decent level head people out there.

I think most people are decent and level headed. I've been blessed with great neighbors. I know some friends who have not been so lucky!

[Frank Pratt]

I agree that the cost of installing a perimeter fence around the whole property would be money well spent. I do most anything to keep relations with the neighbors good, and they seem to do the same.

[Ronald Blue]

Like has already been mentioned. Fences make good neighbors. It doesn't even have to be substantial. Just something to show the property line. Having no definitive clear line leads to boundaries being "fudged" sometimes accidentally.
When we bought the property we now live on the sellers had it surveyed and to their surprise the boundaries they had always been told were incorrect. It was off about 15 feet. This property had been in the family for over 100 years. The line they had always been told was wrong. It didn't matter to us. We own most of the tree line now. The acreage size didn't change only the positioning of it. When we sold the farm we gained acreage because the tracts were larger than they were always assumed to be after surveying. When selling by the acre this lead to a sizeable chunk of cash.

[Bruce Wrenn]

The way to stop Adverse Possession is, with white flag in hand, to approach offending party, and give them permission to be there. They are no longer in adverse possession, as they have your permission to be there. Later you can tell them to get the heck off your land. Tom likes state roads as boundries, but this doesn't always work. Many deeds, including ours, say to the center line of the road. Often when roads are maintained, or paved, the center line moves. Also owning to the center line means for every 1200 feet of road frontage, there is almost an acre of land under the road which owner of record pays taxes on. Friend, when they paved, straightened road, wound up with one foot on other side of road from his house. In 1986, we found out we didn't own most of our front lot as it belonged to the church next door. Surveyor and attorney had made a small two acre error. Graveyard at church was on adjoining farm, and had been since 1952. Talk about adverse possession. All parties signed a boundry agreement to keep what they had been using, so things worked out well. In Oregon, they built an interstate across a logging easement. Owner of easement waited to grand opening , and then parked his logging equipment across the roadway. Had copy of recorded easement in hand when the officials drove down the interstate, Settled for a price which included improvements (section of interstate highway.)

[Bruce King]

No offense Perry, this is about a lawyer. I had 7 acres with a driveway with two 90 deg turns. The gravel driveway was built by the guy that had property next to the driveway. I told him to keep it away from his property but it was one foot over. The 3 acre property got sold twice after that. I came home from work one day and the new lawyer owner had hired some guy’s to dig post holes for a fence. Somehow they managed to dig the holes right on the line along a 50 ft section. We had an RV that would probably not get past a fence due to a drainage ditch on the inside of the turn. These properties are in part of a regular development. The young lawyer and I ended up on the phone and he just said that his wife wants the fence there. I said that common sense would indicate that there is no need to cause me problems. He went ballistic. Common sense is not evidently taught in the law school he attended. I said keep the damn fences where it is! Then hung up. I was thinking I would just build a small bridge over that low area for the RV rear tires. Then a little while later he calls back. I don’t answer. I’m thinking there is some reason he wants to work this out. He kept calling and I didn’t answer until the fourth call. He said he didn’t want to start out on the wrong foot and he would have the holes moved if I would pay the $200 they quoted. So it’s worked out and then I find out why. The county only allows one horse per acre and his wife had three horses plus a donkey she rescued.

[Larry Frank]

A good survey is your friend. I had a problem with a neighbor and he had pulled some survey pins. I paid for a new stake survey and he was out arguing with my survey guy. I made the neighbor move the building that was partially built on my property and put a fence just off the property line.

[Curt Harms]

BEWARE... do not know your location... in Virginia if you use without explicit permission land for 15 years, you can claim ownership of the land under "adverse possession"...
Had a neighbor lose a former store/house because of this. The property adjoining mine (40 acres) was very close to being taken from them under similar conditions...

Get a lawyer to protect your interests.....

Do not know laws in other states, but probably similar....

Know in Pennsylvania when I was in high school (early -1960's) a path across a field next to the school
was being closed to build a house, but because it had been in use for over 20 years,
they could not close it or build the house...

Look up the laws in your state....

In Virginia, if someone cuts trees on your property (for firewood or lumber) they have to pay SEVERE damages to replace them..
.so you could get paid for the firewood they cut...

SWMBO was a Realtor in New Hope, PA. some years ago. A nice but naive lady thought another adjoining Real Estate office was cutting the grass on a portion of her property. She thought they were being nice. They weren't, they gained possession through adverse possession.

[Brian Elfert]

A realtor up our way sold some houses on a school district border area and listed them as part of the more desirable district. I think they ended up getting away with it when sued.

How would a court not rule in favor of the homeowner if the realtor intentionally misrepresented what school district the property is in? Houses in desirable school districts can sell for tens of thousands more.

My previous house was built across two lots. One lot was in a very desirable school district and the other in a good school district, but just not as desirable. It turns out because the master bedroom was in the less desirable district any kids would go to the less desirable schools. I talked to the desirable school district multiples times about any way to be in their school district. I thought about moving my bedroom to the back of the house to qualify for the other district, but that would have been questionable as any buyer would want to use the master bedroom as intended thus losing out on the desirable school district.

My house would have sold in weeks instead of several months if in the other school district. It also would have sold for probably 10% more money. My realtor got a number of inquiries who were not longer interested when they heard what school district it was in.

[Ole Anderson]

My dad was a licensed surveyor/engineer. He actually worked for the Michigan Highway Department as a survey crew chief before founding his own company. Before WWII he worked on alternate routes across the Mackinac Straights jumping island to island. After working three summers in HS on a survey team I went to school and ended up as a licensed engineer myself. I bought a lot in a fairly new sub. There was a 20' wide drainage easement and pipe fully on my lot. My dad and I recovered all of the property irons right where they should be. My new neighbor was convinced he owned to the middle of the easement because the realtor told him so. When my newest neighbor moved in I made it clear where the property line was and that his boat hoist was encroaching on my property only at my permission. I always mow to the property line.

[Jim Becker]

SWMBO was a Realtor in New Hope, PA. some years ago. A nice but naive lady thought another adjoining Real Estate office was cutting the grass on a portion of her property. She thought they were being nice. They weren't, they gained possession through adverse possession.

That's exactly why I immediately addressed the fence issue on the south side of our property when the tenant put it up to contain their (cute) dog...and I mow to the line even though it's on the other side of a tree line. Property is owned by a township commissioner...tenant is a relative.

[Bill Dufour]

UC Berkeley closes off the city street that passes through the main campus near the top. They do it for 24 hours once a year. Normally new years day or around then with little traffic. They do this so it is not a public road that can not be closed.
Bil lD

[Ron Citerone]

How would a court not rule in favor of the homeowner if the realtor intentionally misrepresented what school district the property is in? Houses in desirable school districts can sell for tens of thousands more.

My previous house was built across two lots. One lot was in a very desirable school district and the other in a good school district, but just not as desirable. It turns out because the master bedroom was in the less desirable district any kids would go to the less desirable schools. I talked to the desirable school district multiples times about any way to be in their school district. I thought about moving my bedroom to the back of the house to qualify for the other district, but that would have been questionable as any buyer would want to use the master bedroom as intended thus losing out on the desirable school district.

My house would have sold in weeks instead of several months if in the other school district. It also would have sold for probably 10% more money. My realtor got a number of inquiries who were not longer interested when they heard what school district it was in.

Not sure about the intentional part. I was teaching in one of the districts at the time and their was a lot of discussion about the whole thing. The end result was the kids had to go to their legal district and the buyers were unable to recover anything legally. We were all amazed that the whole thing happened.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

Funny thing is, in the law school I went to, one professor did spend some time covering the subject of "pick your battles", zero sum gains, negotiation skills, etc. There are times when it cost nothing to be magnanimous, times when being right is less important than keeping lines open, times to stand for principle, etc. Many local legal organizations are very concerned about the the curtesy and ethics of many newer members of the bar. Some appear to have been taught that giving up a millimeter is fatal illness. I was taught to be tenacious. The first place I practiced was in Suburban Maryland just outside DC. Despite their burdgeoning urban character, both counties retained their old southern gentility in the practice of law. It was an unexpected pleasure. Then my second or third year, I ran into a lawyer from a slightly more northern city who would argue tooth and nail over what day of the week it really was. When I got to trial, I found that he had sent subpeonas to all my witnesses and then called them the morning of trial to tell them they were not needed and could go to work. I was looking at losing the case and the judge, from the same city refused to do anything. My first witness was a police chaplain by occupation, took the stand and apologized for being late for court. The judge is nodding so nice and then the witness said I can't imagine why Mr. Defense lawyer told me I wasn't needed and not to come to court unless there was some shady thing he was pulling. The judge looked at the witness and demanded to know who told him to say that. The witness looked at the jury and said "my conscience and the Lord Almighty told me to say it". For some reason the judge changed tune and denied all the opposing lawyers motions for mistrial etc. settled the case 30 minutes into the trial. As I walked to my car at noon time, I saw the judge and lawyer sitting in a bar near the court house laughing up a storm. I realized that by changing tunes, the judge was still covering for the lawyer. He forced a settlement. Had he granted the mistrial, I would have appealed and the appeals court could have suspended the lawyer's license. By forcing a settlement the matter might still still be swept under the table. I ran into that lawyer's partner in another case a year later. Similar nonsense, but this time I had called friends for the low down and could anticipate the crap. I learned that litigation cases go on through so many different layers, it is just so much easier to be a straight shooter and not play games.. You can't get caught in any problems of your own making.

[Myk Rian]

How would a court not rule in favor of the homeowner if the realtor intentionally misrepresented what school district the property is in? .
It's called research. Doing your own.
I would know co/city/twnshp/school/postal, even cable boundaries before I bought.
.

[Jim Koepke]

It's called research. Doing your own.
I would know co/city/twnshp/school/postal, even cable boundaries before I bought.
.

Really! Before we even offered a bid on our current home we made sure we had high speed internet.

Some states have disclosure laws, some don't.

When it comes down to purchasing a place to live, as Myk says, one has to figure out the rights and wrongs of the deal themselves. Don't expect an agent trying to make commission to know the details.

jtk

[Mike Chance in Iowa]

I worked for a land survey and civil engineering company for many years. The company had been in business for over 46 years and finally sold it when the all owners were in their 70's and 80's. I dealt with clients and dug up old records for the surveyors and engineers. The previous owners were very accurate surveyors, as well as a lone surveyor that worked that region for 20 years prior to them. All three men were highly respected for their accuracy and detailed notes. The new owner was none of the above.

While dealing with the old and new owners, researching old records, and talking to clients, I learned a lot.

1) Most of the people wanting a survey contacted us because there was a dispute with a neighbor. They never considered a survey when buying the place, nor during all the years while living there.
2) There are a number of bad licensed surveyors and civil engineers out there. Whether it's atrocious calculations, sloppy field work, lazy research, or very poor work ethic, there are a lot of inaccurate surveys filed in the County and State records.
3) More often then not, the bad neighbor continues to be a bad neighbor. They will move and/or destroy stakes and monuments shortly after the survey crew leaves. Many claim they know more then the surveyor because they "stepped it out" or used a tape measure.
4) Reasonable neighbors work out any encroachment issues once the survey work is complete and accept the results. That didn't happen as often as #3. Especially because of #2.
5) Real Estate agents, etc. - Out of the hundreds I dealt with over the years, there were only 3, yes, three, of them that actually paid attention to property lines and did any survey research prior to buying or selling any parcel to their client. All the others only contacted us due to problems. They never contacted us for old survey records prior to a transaction even though we were more then happy to give them that data for free.

When I bought my first property at 19, even before closing, I hired a surveyor to locate the corners. I wanted to know what I was buying. I assumed everyone did that sort of thing. Oh boy was I wrong!

[Brian Elfert]

I never thought about getting a survey before closing on a house. I suspect most buyers don’t know anyone who has had a property line dispute so they don’t want to spend the money.

My first house the city made me get a survey. It cost me $4,000 in 2001 dollars!

[Ronald Blue]

2) There are a number of bad licensed surveyors and civil engineers out there. Whether it's atrocious calculations, sloppy field work, lazy research, or very poor work ethic, there are a lot of inaccurate surveys filed in the County and State records.

Not really related to the original post but a story on a surveyor a few years ago. Working on the railroad several years ago one of our track inspectors encountered a surveyor with his tripod setup in the middle of the tracks. He called the roadmaster who confronted the surveyor. The surveyor went off on him that he could go anywhere he wanted and there was nothing that could be done. The surveyor called the local sheriff saying he would have him arrested for harassment while the roadmaster called our special agent. The deputy arrived and the special agent called shortly after his arrival. The deputy spoke with the special agent and then told the surveyor he had to leave or be arrested for trespassing. He was enraged and as he left he gave the one finger salute. The humorous part was maybe 10 days later the roadmaster received a request to give permission to the survey company to do the previously started work. I know he denied it for obvious reasons. I don't know how it finally played out but there are places they can't go without prior permission.

[Anuj Prateek]

I believe a lot of these issues are with surveyors and some are people just don't care. People are being sold land and being told where their lines are, when if fact they are not.


Our house is on corner plot. Realtor told us property extends to the road. Previous owners said the same. Map/title looked fine not that I understood it fully.

Last week we got posting survey done to put fences. And our property ends like 10-20' before road based on the side. Beyond that city owns it. I am glad the dimensions from survey and title match. Could have turned into an ordeal.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

Our house is on corner plot. Realtor told us property extends to the road. Previous owners said the same. Map/title looked fine not that I understood it fully.

Last week we got posting survey done to put fences. And our property ends like 10-20' before road based on the side. Beyond that city owns it. I am glad the dimensions from survey and title match. Could have turned into an ordeal.

There is an entirely new complexity to rules about real property when municipal rules and developments are concerned. To lay out lots of a city, at least here, the city had to both approve the subdivision and accept the roads provided for in the plan. Those margins and strips reserved for roads, emergency easements, sidewalks etc. normally must be set forth in the plan for dividing the lots and approved by the town. A title insurance search should have revealed those things to you at settlement, if you paid for title insurance. Frankly, I would be doing more research on the issue before giving up. Even out in the country, the State of PA often maintains a 33 (maybe it's 32) ft wide strip for road ways., even if the road is only 12 feet wide, there would be 10 ft on each side for the state. There are some minor exceptions, such as many old colonial era land parcels extend to the middle of the road, but the state still has an easement for the road that is the prescribed width from center.

[Bill Dufour]

Sounds like you were told correctly. Your property does extend to the road. Only it is to the road right of way which is always wider then the paved part. government Normally own 4-6 feet of unpaved land on each side of the paved section. This is for sidewalks, sign posts etc. Also the land underneath for utilities underground like gas and water pipes.
Bil lD

[Jim Becker]

Yup...easements and right-of-way come into play everywhere. The designated property boundaries in the deed often will lie within those easements and right-of-ways, too, as they predate the generations of road improvement. Obviously in a newer neighborhood, there have not been changes. The bottom line is that while your "property" may extend all the way to a road, there are limits to what you can do within the designated right-of-way. Mailbox? No problem. None permanent landscaping? Likely no issues. A fence/wall? May be restrictions/setbacks on placement. Structures? Nope. Can't do that. And even things allowed in those areas are subject to removal if infrastructure work needs done.

[William Chain]

And yet you are responsible for maintaining that sidewalk.


Sounds like you were told correctly. Your property does extend to the road. Only it is to the road right of way which is always wider then the paved part. government Normally own 4-6 feet of unpaved land on each side of the paved section. This is for sidewalks, sign posts etc. Also the land underneath for utilities underground like gas and water pipes.
Bil lD

[Bruce King]

When people build fences on easements with a zoning permit they will be informed that the fence will be dismantled and not reconstructed if a utility needs access.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

some subdivisions here were required to provide emergency easements to the rear of properties to gain approval. No fences, shrubs etc may be planted on them. In the event of a fire, the fire equipment may have to use the easement to access the rear of a property.

[mike stenson]

People often forget that all of these things are variable by location :)

[Howard Garner]

Easements can be interesting.
Many ears ago (1980's?) my city installed city sewer to replace septic tanks.
Visual inspection shows manholes on and next to my lot.
No easements are listed on my dead.
I had some spare time, so when to the court house and research easements
Was even able to get plans from the company the designed the system.
My neighbors easements are registered, but the line the runs 100 ft diagonally across the back of my lot is not registered.
So what can you do.
(I have no problem with this, just an interesting fact.)

Howard Garner

[Bruce Wrenn]

We have a similar situation here. Local town bought a right of way across the front of our property several years back. One of the clauses in sale was they were responsible for the property taxes on this section. Not once in the ensuing years have they paid one cent, as we are billed for total amount of land. When they start construction on new force main, we have a BIG SURPRISE for them. They can again purchase right of way, as they violated their own terms of agreement. It's not just us, but several neighbors.

[Ole Anderson]

An old survey dimension was called a rod which was 16.5 feet long. Even recently a surveyor‘s rod for leveling is 16.5 feet long. A surveyors chain was 66' long (since 1620 also called a Gunter's chain) and consisted of 100 links, so it was 4 rods long. Section line road right of way (mile roads) were generally two rods either side of the centerline or a total of 66 feet wide. Subdivision roads are commonly 60’ right of way, so if the paved road is 20’ wide, the actual edge of the ROW is 20’ from the edge of the road. Varies by state, community and age. Sometimes the ROW is deeded as public, other times it is an easement with ownership to the center of the road with allowable public use the full width of the ROW. Allowable uses usually are for transportation and public utilities.

[Rob Luter]

A friend had a similar issue with a neighbor. An East/West driveway ran down the edge of his property bordering the neighbor. The neighbor treated it as a shared driveway, which the survey showed it wasn't. My friend tried to force the issue and make the neighbor use his own driveway. Neighbor sues and produces his own survey. They find the root cause of the issue to be that one survey used the North end of the land section as a datum and the other one used the South end. The errors overlapped. The actual property line ran down the very center of the driveway. There's still conflict regarding snow plowing, maintenance, etc., but they know where the line is now.

[Brian Elfert]

The first house I bought was an old house built in 1911. The original lot was 40 feet wide and the house was pretty much built all the way to the property lines on both sides. A detached garage had been built behind the house. Years earlier the owner at the time was using a driveway across the neighbor's lot to access the garage. There was some kind of dispute with the neighbor and the neighbor built a fence so the garage could no longer be accessed. They finally settled things by the neighbor selling the owner 15 feet of their lot so the garage could be accessed. The house in 1911 had no bathroom which was added on later. The bathroom addition was actually partially on the other neighbor's lot.

The house was about to be condemned when I bought it. I tore it down as the cost to save the house was as much as a larger new house.

[lowell holmes]

Shortly after we moved into our house, I put a chain link fence around the back yard. The squirrels and our dog enjoys it.

[Stan Calow]

Perry, come back later and tell us how this turns out.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

When the Penns first sold land in Pennsylvania, they included a clause in all land documents, "reserving ten percent for roads and schools." About 40 years ago, a school district tried to condemn a piece of ground on a large farm and claimed they didn't have to pay since they were taking less than ten percent. The court said prove that ten percent was not already taken from the original grant, which of course they couldn't. They paid.

[Larry Edgerton]

I have always had largish parcels, and have had some of the same.

Best one was a fellow hunting, looking at my orchard towards my house where my kids were playing. I walked up and told him he was trespassing, not just a little bit, he was in the middle of 180 acres. He said he had been hunting here for years and was not leaving. I went back to the house, grabbed my Purdy and snuck around behind him and stuck both barrels in his ear. I made him put his gun down, then I made him take his pants off, gave him his keys and kept the rest. Told him he could pick up his pants, gun and wallet at the sheriffs office. Sheriff came out and picked the stuff out and had a good laugh, gave him hell when he came in and explained to him that he got off real easy this time. In the old days that was OK, would not do that today.

Had one fellow dig up some HUGE boulders on an investment property with a loader and then drive across the septic to get to his place. I confronted him and he was an A**, so I called the Sheriff, pressed charges. He was standing there all POed and I told him he had an option, he could buy me out for 6 times what I had paid, although he did not know that number, or he could go to jail. He said no way and so I told the Sheriff to arrest him as we had him for knowingly stealing. He went in and wrote me a check. Only owned that piece one month, was awesome!

I work very hard for what I have, and no one is just going to take it from me. I hate thieves!

[Wade Lippman]

Our neighbor has a fence two feet onto his property, as required by code. My wife had a garden on those two feet.
Our neighbor, jokingly I believe, said he hoped we weren't trying to gain ownership by adverse possession.
I assured him that we didn't want it; he could pay the taxes on it.

At our old house there was a deck 6" onto my neighbor's yard. My lawyer assured me it had no legal significance. I am not sure why, but I lived there 20 years and no one seemed to care about it.

That's all I know.

[Anuj Prateek]

There is an entirely new complexity to rules about real property when municipal rules and developments are concerned. To lay out lots of a city, at least here, the city had to both approve the subdivision and accept the roads provided for in the plan. Those margins and strips reserved for roads, emergency easements, sidewalks etc. normally must be set forth in the plan for dividing the lots and approved by the town. A title insurance search should have revealed those things to you at settlement, if you paid for title insurance. Frankly, I would be doing more research on the issue before giving up. Even out in the country, the State of PA often maintains a 33 (maybe it's 32) ft wide strip for road ways., even if the road is only 12 feet wide, there would be 10 ft on each side for the state. There are some minor exceptions, such as many old colonial era land parcels extend to the middle of the road, but the state still has an easement for the road that is the prescribed width from center.

It was our (and previous owners) fault in understanding the plot map/title.

There is 10-20' strip owned by the city, around the road. People planted grass, shrubs and trees on the strip over time and city never said anything. Over time people assumed that land goes to the road. It's strange that very less people bother with a posting survey.

When we matched the plot dimensions/description from title against the survey, it matched correctly.

[Anuj Prateek]

Sounds like you were told correctly. Your property does extend to the road. Only it is to the road right of way which is always wider then the paved part. government Normally own 4-6 feet of unpaved land on each side of the paved section. This is for sidewalks, sign posts etc. Also the land underneath for utilities underground like gas and water pipes.
Bil lD


Yup...easements and right-of-way come into play everywhere. The designated property boundaries in the deed often will lie within those easements and right-of-ways, too, as they predate the generations of road improvement. Obviously in a newer neighborhood, there have not been changes. The bottom line is that while your "property" may extend all the way to a road, there are limits to what you can do within the designated right-of-way. Mailbox? No problem. None permanent landscaping? Likely no issues. A fence/wall? May be restrictions/setbacks on placement. Structures? Nope. Can't do that. And even things allowed in those areas are subject to removal if infrastructure work needs done.


And yet you are responsible for maintaining that sidewalk.


When people build fences on easements with a zoning permit they will be informed that the fence will be dismantled and not reconstructed if a utility needs access.


That strip around the road has sign posts, electrical poles, and storm drain runs under it.
City owns it fully. Beyond the strip there is no easement on property.

We called city today about where we can put the fence and what we can do on the strip. This is what we got:

- Fence and any permanent structure should not be constructed on the strip and it is illegal to do so.
- Fence can be constructed right on the boundary of the plot (as shown on posting survey).
- We can plant grass, shrubs etc on the strip. Unofficially we can plant trees along the fence (on outside).
- We don't have to maintain the strip. Well we will anyway, otherwise it will start look bad.

We submitted permit applications for garage, family room extension and workshop (Yay!) few weeks back.
Luckily (well should be expected), architects/designers were able to read plans from city and did right setbacks and other stuff.

[Anuj Prateek]

Section line road right of way (mile roads) were generally two rods either side of the centerline or a total of 66 feet wide. Subdivision roads are commonly 60Â’ right of way, so if the paved road is 20Â’ wide, the actual edge of the ROW is 20Â’ from the edge of the road. Varies by state, community and age. Sometimes the ROW is deeded as public, other times it is an easement with ownership to the center of the road with allowable public use the full width of the ROW.

These are all the terms and explanations that our surveyor used! Specifically subdivision + 60' part.

Facepalm part of the story.


Designers/architects built the plan for house extension, and it was submitted to city. Here, it takes 2 months or so on an average to get permit after submission. So we decided to finish the fence in meantime. Contractor called me and said we will save some money on original estimate since fence is little inside. We were discussing (on phone) and looking at the plans that were submitted. I see unrealistic numbers on property line. Our plot is some 12600 sf and numbers were giving me square footage lower than the house itself. So I kept telling him it's too small and there is an error. He assumed I am talking about 10-20' strip and he kept explaining me how it matches title. Well I ended up confusing him. Then more discussions followed about shared boundary, tree lines etc and we decided it's good to get the survey done (its' like CAD 1300 so not too high in grand scheme of things) and avoid problems down the line.

Well surveyor arrives. Well he did whatever he did, spent hours tying (term he used) plots - as there were no markers to be found in any nearby plots. His numbers matched designer/architects numbers.
Lo and behold, when he starts explaining the dimensions. I realize, he is talking in meters - not feet - meters. All new plans in BC are submitted in meters!
It never crossed my mind that there is no feet here. Before Canada, we lived is US and India. In US it was all in feet, and in India property discussions were always in feet.
Even for this house, all title documents and old plans are in feet.
This was the first meter w.r.t this house (or any property as such) I heard.

Well later he explained how systems changed, and new plans are submitted in meters for years now. During discussion he also explained the chain, measurement from center of road etc that Ole has written.

[Jim Becker]

That strip around the road has sign posts, electrical poles, and storm drain runs under it.
City owns it fully. Beyond the strip there is no easement on property.

We called city today about where we can put the fence and what we can do on the strip. This is what we got:

- Fence and any permanent structure should not be constructed on the strip and it is illegal to do so.
- Fence can be constructed right on the boundary of the plot (as shown on posting survey).
- We can plant grass, shrubs etc on the strip. Unofficially we can plant trees along the fence (on outside).
- We don't have to maintain the strip. Well we will anyway, otherwise it will start look bad.

We submitted permit applications for garage, family room extension and workshop (Yay!) few weeks back.
Luckily (well should be expected), architects/designers were able to read plans from city and did right setbacks and other stuff.

"Everything is local". I can see things being as you describe in a more urban/almost-urban setting for sure. If I bought a property "in town" here, it's likely there would be similar. Where my current property is, the property corners are where they are within the roadway easement. Meaning, "it's our land", but we can't (and practically shouldn't) do certain things in that area but do need to maintain it. So it's grass. :)

[Anuj Prateek]

"Everything is local". I can see things being as you describe in a more urban/almost-urban setting for sure. If I bought a property "in town" here, it's likely there would be similar. Where my current property is, the property corners are where they are within the roadway easement. Meaning, "it's our land", but we can't (and practically shouldn't) do certain things in that area but do need to maintain it. So it's grass. :)

Yup, it's in urban setting (Coquitlam, BC).

It's interesting how laws and rules vary from one place to other.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

it is also strange that your mortgage company did not require a survey. Seems like more and more mortgage companies are requiring surveys now.

[Anuj Prateek]

it is also strange that your mortgage company did not require a survey. Seems like more and more mortgage companies are requiring surveys now.

Have only experience with mortgage twice. One time in US (6-7 years back) and now in Canada. In both cases they did not ask for survey.

They should though!

[Bruce Wrenn]

Our deed calls for center line of the road. When road was paved in 1992 (we've been here 40+ years) center line of the road moved a couple feet. On one end, we lost land,and on the other gained land based upon location of center line of the road. Doesn't make any difference, as we still pay taxes based upon the whole amount. FYI, we have paid more in property taxes over the last forty+ years than we paid for land and two houses along with improvements (wells, septic tanks, drives, etc. Best part is I get to pay property taxes on our labor, as we built it ourselves.

[Andrew Joiner]

Our deed calls for center line of the road. When road was paved in 1992 (we've been here 40+ years) center line of the road moved a couple feet. On one end, we lost land,and on the other gained land based upon location of center line of the road. Doesn't make any difference, as we still pay taxes based upon the whole amount. FYI, we have paid more in property taxes over the last forty+ years than we paid for land and two houses along with improvements (wells, septic tanks, drives, etc. Best part is I get to pay property taxes on our labor, as we built it ourselves.
Thanks for your Property tax input Bruce. Hard to believe how much the cost is over the years. We got into Property tax a bit here : https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?217319-Do-all-cities-have-screwy-zoning-building-rules

[Mike Chance in Iowa]

it is also strange that your mortgage company did not require a survey. Seems like more and more mortgage companies are requiring surveys now.

In all the years I worked at the land survey company, there was not a single mortgage or insurance company requiring it. I think it happens more in States on the East side and not States in the middle or West side. There were a number of clients contracting us to survey a parcel they were in the process of buying and they mentioned it was a requirement where they used to live "back East" and assumed it was a requirement in our State too.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

Relatives inherited a 91 acre property about an hour north west of Philadelphia. No buildings, and apparently never were any. Had been used for various things since colonial days. Mostly for charcoal for the nearby iron and nickel mines. Anyway, they apply for a mortgage and the back comes back and says a title search shows there is a lien on the property. So we ask what lien. Turns out the original settler paid the Penns for 70 acres but took 91 and never settled up with the Penns, and now the state, the successor in interest to the Penns. In order to get the state to release the line, the property had to be surveyed and the survey returned to the state land office whereupon the payment of 21 shillings (statutory price still on the books) the lien would be released. This was in the 1980's and the property was first settled in the 1740's. I actually went to a coin shop and got 21 shillings English money (12 cents each at the time) to pay the state. Mortgage companies here have been requiring surveys of even tiny postage stamp size lots no matter when last surveyed.. I think in part to protect the bank in the event the seller did something that affects clear title that is apparent to surveyors, drainage easements, infringements, etc. Such problems may no show up as frequently as here in the east. After all, out in the mid west and west, most land was sold by sections and quarter sections with straight line due north-south and due east-west boundaries. A friend has a property with two measured lines and one angle. From the center of road no 741, NE 237 ft to a point, thence SE 428 ft to the center or road no 741. the road makes the third side of a large triangle but there is no measurements along the center of the road, and the road has been changed three times in the past 140 years since the deed description was done. We have no idea if he now owns more or less than it was 140 years ago.

[Andrew Seemann]

Yuck, we don't deal with that stuff here. Jeffersonian survey since day one; none of that "150 paces from Old Man Jenkin's barn to the hollow oak tree and thence due north to the creek, etc" metes and bounds stuff. For the most part land was normally surveyed before it was sold, and , most land has been titled for less than 150 years with typically a clear record of ownership.

I seem to remember hearing in a college geography course that at one point there was something like seven times more land titled in New Jersey than existed in New Jersey.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

Y
I seem to remember hearing in a college geography course that at one point there was something like seven times more land titled in New Jersey than existed in New Jersey.

In very early Pennsylvania (around 1730) a guy named Faulkner obtained a thousand acres of so and sold off parcels. Some he sold to four or five different individuals, both here and abroad. There is still a place called Faulkner Swamp.

[Steve Demuth]

Yuck, we don't deal with that stuff here. Jeffersonian survey since day one; none of that "150 paces from Old Man Jenkin's barn to the hollow oak tree and thence due north to the creek, etc" metes and bounds stuff. For the most part land was normally surveyed before it was sold, and , most land has been titled for less than 150 years with typically a clear record of ownership.

I seem to remember hearing in a college geography course that at one point there was something like seven times more land titled in New Jersey than existed in New Jersey.

It can still get plenty complicated. Our place was originally platted as woodlots of 6 2/3 acres each (so six lots to fit a "40"). The property itself is a complex subdivision by the intersection of two almost diagonals on one 40 (cuts across 5 of six of the original lots), minus another angled cut where the county wanted a curve rather than a corner on the road, plus another 6 2/3 acre lot from a different 40 in a different section in a different township. Altogether it's a nice, compact blob on a map, but it takes a half page of legal description to describe it, and when I went to put in a fence so I could use some of it for pasture, cost me 1/3 of the price of the fence to find where the corners and actual road boundary were. It also didn't make my neighbor overly happy that the old fence post he thought marked the boundary wasn't actually where the surveyors thought it should be, and the new line ran right through the center of a valuable old walnut tree that he had believed was entirely (but just) entirely on his property. Fortunately, he and I get along reasonably well, and neither of us have an interest in cutting the tree at this point, so the fence goes around the tree, leaving it on his side.

[Tom M King]

The county that our county was originally a part of (in another state now) was formed in 1720. The English Crown decided, at urging of Governor Spotswood, that the best way to cut the French off from joining their properties from the North, and South, preventing westward expansion by the English, was to populate the territory with English. Anyone could get a thousand acres that wanted it, with a few unenforced rules.

Not only could you get the thousand acres, but if you could count your fingers, and toes, you could register as your own surveyor. Now, as you can imagine, some of those self-surveyed property lines grew, for some odd reason. When the next person came along, and decided they were good with the first surveyors version of that property line, it doesn't take much imagination to see how this went.

A couple of centuries later, some family will want to sell off a hundred, or few acres. By then, they were dragging chains for surveying, so the left over parcel might be significantly larger than what is registered with the County.

There are still many parcels around here that have never been surveyed by modern methods, and we don't intend to ever have it done. Ours did not belong to my family for that time before we came here, but I see no need to argue with the old surveys. It was what was left over from having small parcels cut off from it.

All our property lines are state roads, except for one small one, and I have dibs on that piece.

[Jim Becker]

The oldest portion of our current home was part of a very large estate that Wm Penn transacted to another family named Paxton, to the best of my knowledge. That was after the land was, um...appropriated...from the local natives, one tribe of which still exists on the top of the mountain behind our home and who run a very successful security company. Our particular 3.82 acres is shaped like the state of Louisiana and was "fun" for the surveyor to lay out when that was necessary in 2007/2008 as part of our home addition project. Only one corner had an existing marker remaining and three other corners were in the middle of a rocky area of forrest. The 410' of frontage is on a state highway which "back in the day" was a dirt road, but is now a very busy stretch of road because it's a designated route for oversize transport as there are no bridges, etc.

[Brian Deakin]

I live in the Uk and I have had issues with my neighbor constantly over the years edging the line of the boundary over
With hindsight I believe the best option is to try to resolve the issue when it first occurs and put in place evidential markers of the boundary line
Additionally it is worth making a video record of the boundary lines
The difficulty even in the Uk is it can cost tens of thousands of dollers to go to court and even though the principle may be important to you going to court could in the uk

(1) Risk failing with you claim and having to pay the neighbors costs
(2) Winning your claim ,having to pay court costs but being unable to recover any costs from the neighbor
(3) The judge seeing the claim as frivolous if it is a small amount of land and throwing the claim out
(4) The judge in my case deciding could simply draw a line half way between the two properties

[Donald G. Burns]

I owned a house out in S. California that was in a neighborhood where the lots were on a hillside and the next lot up was about 20' higher than ours. I owned most of the slope, but the house builder was lazy with making the property lines and the slopes follow the same line. One day the upper neighbor put in a block wall along the top of the slope (no problem), and I asked if I could maintain the full slope with plants and water it since he wasn't interested in maintaining his slope area. Later on I put a retaining wall in along the back of our property and also the far side of our lot (our down slope). After leveling our property I gained a lot of flat back yard, but the neighbor on the far side (down slope) said that I encroached on their land. I had had a survey done before building our wall and then had the wall installed 1" in from the property line. Neighbor raised a stink and got the homeowners association involved and in the end was told that I was correct. The down slope people did all kinds of nasty things like pulling out the property survey markers. During all of this process the first neighbor (the one above me) found out where his property line was since we had to survey from his line across my property to find the far side's correct line as part of the process. He found out that about 1/3 of the slope was his and his rear yard could have been made a whole lot larger too if he'd gone to his property line. Soon there after he was transferred and sold his home. I continued to maintain the slope, but did tell the new neighbor that part of the slope belonged to him. I did nothing to claim it for the 20 years we lived there. When we sold I don't know if new people knew they did/didn't own the slope since we didn't meet them. So sometimes good walls make for bad neighbors too.

A solution to bad neighbors can also be to grant a license to do only certain things on your property and if you withhold the license for a period of time you can show ownership and allow non-adverse use. An example might be a license (not easement) to cross at a certain place to reach public land and a gate that you close once a year for a day or week. But DYODD and you find out the laws of your state.

[Jack Llewyllson]

Sheesh ...

<some snipping here>

In 23 years, I have had to sue three neighbors over property line disputes. Came home from a three day weekend 20 years ago, to find a neighbor put a fence part way across my pasture. I don't understand how people don't care what they do to other people's property. I never put up a fence or cut down a tree without making sure I was on my own property. Cost me a fortune to have my farm surveyed.

I feel ya, Perry.

For 30 years or so, Mom's been telling me stories about a bequest for a property in the state where she lives (south of my state). It's a small cabin/house/actually a former real estate office on one of two long, narrow lots. It sits on the SW corner of the southern lot, near a street. Along with my siblings and many friends, I have a lot of history at that property, which she purchased about 50 years ago. Mom's been telling me for most of my life that I will inherit both lots. After my eldest daughter was born, she changed the will to split that bequest between the two of us. Other siblings are in line for other bequests.

About 20 years back, she had it surveyed after people encroached on the street edge of the northern lot.

About ten years ago, a neighbor built a shed that clearly encroaches on the northern lot's northern boundary. I advised her to write him a letter. He responded that he'd really rather not move the shed, and she agreed to let it stand. Subsequently, he erected a property line fence that deviates around the shed, on Mom's side, where he's encroaching. Whether that correspondence still exists is unknown to me.

I have NOT been looking forward to a property line dispute.

Mom's now in failing health, alert but without much energy. Her mind is no longer reliable, nor has it been for a few years now. I've recently seen a copy of the only known extant will, which dates back to the early 1990s. It names me as the beneficiary of the cabin lot, but assigns the northern lot to my brother. The northern lot has most of the timber, while the southern lot has the cabin, a swamp covering about half the land, and a septic tank that would surely not be permitted under current codes.

My brother is an embezzler and a welsher. He's lost several million dollars worth of real estate in Idaho and Nevada due to not paying the notes (in some cases) or the fees (in others), or after being successfully sued by partners. He "made his bones" by stealing both money and property from our father, who is now dead and who divorced our mother long ago.

These days, I counterbalance the dread of having my pestilent brother for a neighbor against the relief of letting him knuckle it out with the next neighbor. For our part, my daughter and I are considering condemning all or part of the cabin lot as a nature preserve. The land, small as it is, supports a rare blue butterfly species and some endangered peeper frogs in the swamp.

The only legal disputes more sordid and angry than property clashes are will challenges. Both of them spin up rage and underlying personal issues faster than instructing one's spouse to "just calm down." I'd like to stay as clean of both as possible.

For this little house wherein I'm sitting to type this, here in a little suburb of Seattle, we "solved" our only-ever neighbor dispute (i.e. an angry old woman with mental health issues, with whom we share a fence line) by building a tidy little shop, 22 feet high, that blocks the two-way view between our back decks quite admirably.

So G-d bless shops. After dogs and motorcycles, they're the world's next-finest mental health affordance.

Life is short, and many property disputes exceed the spans of those pursuing them. Insofar as it can be avoided, I do not wish to play.