Lacquer

[Rich Stewart]

I started asking this question in another thread and decided to open a new one. I have been hearing about lacquer lately so I got a can of deft lacquer and put it on a walnut bowl. I applied it by wiping it on with a paper towel. First coat looked halfway decent. I let it set for two days. Then as per the intructions on the can I lightly sanded it with 400. Can said 220 but I went with 400. Then reapplied. What a mess. Looked horrible.:mad: Ended up sanding the entire piece down to bare wood again and now I am afraid to mess with the lacquer anymore but I keep seeing these great results everybody else is getting. Whats the secret?:confused:

[Robert Mickley]

What a mess in what way? I've had good luck with Deft, better luck with Watco, and my best luck with cambells, no not the soup. Before I started spraying I used a good quality brush, I don't think I ever let anything sit more than 3 or 4 hours between coats. wet Sanded with 320 between 1st and second coats, 400 between the second and third wet sanded the last one with 600, 800. buffed out with Mcguires buffing compounds for cars. I leave them cure for a week or so before buffing.

Now since I started Spraying Cambells Magnalac If your real careful and don't get no dust nibs there is no sanding and no buffing. If you want a satin finish I dry sand with 400 and wax, high gloss, wet sand with 800 after the last coat and buff.

If you ever use Magnalac DO NOT leave it in the gun. I learned the hard way and spent 3 days gettign the gun cleaned out.

[Anthony Anderson]

Rich, I always spray the Deft. I always thin it about 10-15% with laquer thinner. I have never wiped laquer. Sometimes brushed, almost always sprayed. I put on two coats, let that set for about an hour, lightly dry sand with 320-400 to "de-nib" (take out any fuzzies or dust specks) and then spray two-three more coats. If you want to wipe it try thinning it out. Try about 15% to start and adjust from there. My thought, and that's all it is, is that laquer is too thick straight out of the can to wipe, in addition it dries very quickly. That sounds like where it is not working out for you. If it is a turned piece then try to apply the laquer to the piece while on the lathe, spinning slowly. But make sure to experiment on something that does not matter first. I'm sure others will give more advise. HTH, Bill

[Ernie Nyvall]

Rich, I've used a wiping method with semi gloss Deft, but here is what I do.

I sponge on the lacquer fairly thick. Let it sit for one minute. Then with multiple paper towels at hand, I wipe it dry. As soon a one towel gets saturated, I grab another. Keep wiping like this until the bowl or whatever is dry. Keep some thinner handy for those places that got too sticky to wipe off and lightly rub off. Make sure it is wiped completely dry before the next step. Now, with the lathe on, hold a dry paper towel against the bowl until it gets warm. Note: If the bowl wasn't completely dry before this, it will get ugly with streaks of lacquer, however it can be fixed with thinner. Anyway, do this for as many coats as you want, but because the bowl has warmed up from spinning against a dry towel, you don't let the subsequent coats sit for any time before wiping off.

Hope this helps.

Ernie

[John Hart]

I use Lacquer in a spray can. After reading everyone else's answers, I think maybe I'm doing it wrong...but, my results are good and it's Deft...so maybe it's ok. I just sit the form in an open space where I can walk around it and do short even bursts. I'll wait a half hour or so and do it again. After a couple hours, I'll do some light sanding to knock off some rough spots and then do it again. I just repeat this till I'm happy. Then I take pics, post it on SMC and then throw it in the fire.:D

[Jerry Clark]

Rich, I use lacquer all the time and I am satisfied with the results.

I wet sand with 400 sandpaper between coats and only put on a few light coats at a time. When spraying I can put several coats on in a few hours. You may want to try Deft in spray cans and if you use oil, it must dry at least 24 hours before applying the lacquer.:D

[Jim Becker]

Deft is a brushing lacquer (the none spray can version) and may dry too quickly to use for wipe-on application. And do be careful of the fumes...only do it in a well ventilated area. Outside is the only place I'll touch the stuff. I do occasionally use the spray cans for small things as it's quick and economical.

[Carole Valentine]

I use lacquer (thinned) only as a sealing coat under Waterlox or other oil finishes. I slop it on then immediately wipe it dry. You can get nearly as good a gloss with Waterlox as you can with lacquer and it is not nearly as obnoxious to use, although it is expensive. I have used Deft as a wiping lacquer, but it needs to be thinnned so it can flow out. I have small jars mixed to 50% and 75%. I buff the first few coats back with 6/0 steelwool cloth then wet sand with 400g on the first coat (after the sealing coat) 600 grit on the second coat, etc. In order for it to look good, lacquer is a lot of work! It is also the most hazardous (to your health) finish you can use. It goes directly to work on the brain and other organs... just take a look at John.:D:D:D
This little Box Elder hollow form has a lacquer sealer and 3 coats of Waterlox. You can see the reflection of my flourescent kitchen light on it. LOL

[Andy Hoyt]

.... I just sit the form in an open space where I can walk around it and do short even bursts.....

Hey John - Try a lazy susan. Saves wear and tear on your sneakers and may even help with applying a more consistent coating.

[Anthony Anderson]

Deft is a brushing lacquer (the none spray can version) and may dry too quickly to use for wipe-on application. And do be careful of the fumes...only do it in a well ventilated area. Outside is the only place I'll touch the stuff. I do occasionally use the spray cans for small things as it's quick and economical.

Jim, I have seen on the containers of Deft that it is not to be sprayed, as you have mentioned. Do you know why it is not supposed to be sprayed? I have sprayed it for several years with no problems. Actually it has worked great. It is too thick (viscosity) to be sprayed out of the can, so I reduce it before I spray. I just sprayed two theater units today with the Deft, and they turned out pretty good. Also I have used non-Deft laquer clear in the past with good results. Just wondering, Thanks, Bill

[Anthony Anderson]

I use lacquer (thinned) only as a sealing coat under Waterlox or other oil finishes. I slop it on then immediately wipe it dry. You can get nearly as good a gloss with Waterlox as you can with lacquer and it is not nearly as obnoxious to use, although it is expensive. I have used Deft as a wiping lacquer, but it needs to be thinnned so it can flow out. I have small jars mixed to 50% and 75%. I buff the first few coats back with 6/0 steelwool cloth then wet sand with 400g on the first coat (after the sealing coat) 600 grit on the second coat, etc. In order for it to look good, lacquer is a lot of work! It is also the most hazardous (to your health) finish you can use. It goes directly to work on the brain and other organs... just take a look at John.:D:D:D
This little Box Elder hollow form has a lacquer sealer and 3 coats of Waterlox. You can see the reflection of my flourescent kitchen light on it. LOL

Carole, That is beautiful! I had no idea box elder could look like that. Where do you buy the waterlox? Is it a water based 'laquer'? I agree that laquer is not the most user friendly, but sometimes I want that amber tone that laquer provides. Can you recommend something that will give me an amber tone without the nasty fumes? I have thought about trying to tint some water based clear with Transtint dyes. What do you think? Thanks a lot, Bill

[Carole Valentine]

Carole, That is beautiful! I had no idea box elder could look like that. Where do you buy the waterlox? Is it a water based 'laquer'? I agree that laquer is not the most user friendly, but sometimes I want that amber tone that laquer provides. Can you recommend something that will give me an amber tone without the nasty fumes? I have thought about trying to tint some water based clear with Transtint dyes. What do you think? Thanks a lot, Bill

Thank you. Waterlox is a true tung oil finish, unlike most of the ones on the market that sport "Tung oil" somewhere in their labeling. I think the additive that provides the gloss is varnish, but not sure. It is also the least likely of the oil finishes to change the color or darken the wood over time, especially if applied over a sealer coat of thinned lacquer. (This Box Elder already had the dark in it) My goal is NOT to change the color of the wood, so our goals are somewhat different.:) Lacquer is the least likely to change the color. Most oil finishes will give you an amber tint, but I have not been able to get the high gloss because most do not have sufficient solids for a high build. I have to order my Waterlox as no one carries it here. Woodcraft, Craft Supplies both carry it.

[John Hart]

Great Form all around Carole!!!! And the finish is wonderful! I share your philosophy on natural wood....although I just absolutely love what others have done. I might have to reserve the right to change my mind later though! :rolleyes:

[Jim Becker]

Anthony, Deft brushing lacquer "can" be sprayed if reduced to the proper viscosity with lacquer thinner. It's sold as a brushing lacquer and is quite thick. Many folks say that the "do not thin" on the labels, which in this case is analoguos to "do not spray", for obvious reasons, is to meet VOC regulations. That said, there are so many lacquer products available, that Deft isn't the only answer if you really want to use NC Lacquer. (As I indicated, I don't use NC lacquer other than an occasional quicky for a small object or three with Deft from a spray can when I can do it outdoors...NEVER in my shop)

[Hank Walczak]

FYI, quite a few guitar builders use the water based laquer ( see the Stewart-Mac site) for guitar finishes instead of the NC laquers. Not too bad to work with. Many of the same finishing properties of NC laquer but without the danger. My .02.

Hank

[tod evans]

FYI, quite a few guitar builders use the water based laquer ( see the Stewart-Mac site) for guitar finishes instead of the NC laquers. Not too bad to work with. Many of the same finishing properties of NC laquer but without the danger. My .02.

Hank

i` m new to this waterbased stuff and wonder just how a waterbased product can be clasified as lacquer? i`ve been tought that lacquer will "melt" into itself if a person applies another coat years down the road. this holds true for the nitrocellouse lacquer but i have a hard time seeing a waterbased product doing the chemical bond thing after curing.......anybody care to enlighten me?? tod

[Jim Becker]

Tod, you ask a good question. Nearly all water bourne products are acrylics and they do perform well, clean up easy and are safe to use. Some offer partial "burn in" like lacquer, but to the best of my knowledge, only Target Coatings USL gives you 100% burn in like NC lacquer. Many other water bourne products build in layers like varnish. My knowledge obviously can be incomplete, too, relative to others...and I suspect that more manufacturers will move to more capable products based on the increasing restrictions on solvent based products due to VOC limits becoming stricter in many areas of the US and elsewhere.

The burn in property is definitely related to chemistry. And water bourne refers to the "transport mechanism" for getting the finish from the container and onto the project...it's different than water-based or water soluble. The actual finish likely still contains solvents (at greatly reduced volumes) and that is the key to the property in question. It's just suspended in the water instead of being slathered in more volitile solvents.

[tod evans]

Tod, you ask a good question. Nearly all water bourne products are acrylics and they do perform well, clean up easy and are safe to use. Some offer partial "burn in" like lacquer, but to the best of my knowledge, only Target Coatings USL gives you 100% burn in like NC lacquer. Many other water bourne products build in layers like varnish. My knowledge obviously can be incomplete, too, relative to others...and I suspect that more manufacturers will move to more capable products based on the increasing restrictions on solvent based products due to VOC limits becoming stricter in many areas of the US and elsewhere.

The burn in property is definitely related to chemistry. And water bourne refers to the "transport mechanism" for getting the finish from the container and onto the project...it's different than water-based or water soluble. The actual finish likely still contains solvents (at greatly reduced volumes) and that is the key to the property in question. It's just suspended in the water instead of being slathered in more volitile solvents.

thanks jim, i`ll have to try some of that target stuff and see how it works. it`ll be pretty hard to pry me away from what i`m used to but i`m not completely closed minded:) tod

[Jim Becker]

No harm in trying a new product, Tod. Worse, case...you're out a little money and time, yet still learn something. Personally, I love the USL...and it's safe to use in my shop.

[Rich Stewart]

Thank you all for your replies. I will try out some of the things I have learned here and let you know how it came out.

Thanks again.

[Anthony Anderson]

Thank you. Waterlox is a true tung oil finish, unlike most of the ones on the market that sport "Tung oil" somewhere in their labeling. I think the additive that provides the gloss is varnish, but not sure. It is also the least likely of the oil finishes to change the color or darken the wood over time, especially if applied over a sealer coat of thinned lacquer. (This Box Elder already had the dark in it) My goal is NOT to change the color of the wood, so our goals are somewhat different.:) Lacquer is the least likely to change the color. Most oil finishes will give you an amber tint, but I have not been able to get the high gloss because most do not have sufficient solids for a high build. I have to order my Waterlox as no one carries it here. Woodcraft, Craft Supplies both carry it.

Thanks Carole, I will definately give waterlox a try. I don't have any woodworking supply store near either, so I will resort to ordering as well. Bummer! I normally do not like to change the color of wood as well. Mostly everything in our house is a natural finish (Maple/Cherry). This time I was finishing some theater units that I wanted to be darker, in order for light from the screen to be absorbed rather than reflected. In fact, I am so used to light natural colors that it is taking some getting used to. I may have gone too dark with a red tone. I used Transtint dyes (honey amber and reddish brown) and was very happy with the dye itself but not my mix. It just did not look that dark on the test piece. Famous last words of a fool, I guess. Thanks for the advice, Bill

[Anthony Anderson]

Anthony, Deft brushing lacquer "can" be sprayed if reduced to the proper viscosity with lacquer thinner. It's sold as a brushing lacquer and is quite thick. Many folks say that the "do not thin" on the labels, which in this case is analoguos to "do not spray", for obvious reasons, is to meet VOC regulations. That said, there are so many lacquer products available, that Deft isn't the only answer if you really want to use NC Lacquer. (As I indicated, I don't use NC lacquer other than an occasional quicky for a small object or three with Deft from a spray can when I can do it outdoors...NEVER in my shop)

Jim, thanks for the information. OSHA and the EPA has really cracked down on the volatile compounds. Other than the obvious benefits to our health, the HVLP gun was borne out of necessity to meet the regulations of those agencies. I can remember using the conventional guns, and after using my HVLP for so long, I could not imagine going back. BTW, where do you buy the Target Water-based Lacquer? Is it from Homestead Finishes? Are dry times as good as conventional lacquers? Are there any blushing problems that are associated with traditional lacquers? Thanks for your help, Bill

[Jack Wood]

I have a bud who refinishes furniture and lacquer his his coating of choice. But when he sprays it he's got a cotton spray suit on rubber gloves and a good respirator. I once used some colored lacquer spray before in a closed shop with no mask, I'm lucky I walked out before I passed out!:eek: I've got a good chem/mask now on anytime I spray anything. I think I'll stick to polyurethane and shellac, teak and tung oils. But then again never say never!:D

[Anthony Anderson]

I have a bud who refinishes furniture and lacquer his his coating of choice. But when he sprays it he's got a cotton spray suit on rubber gloves and a good respirator. I once used some colored lacquer spray before in a closed shop with no mask, I'm lucky I walked out before I passed out!:eek: I've got a good chem/mask now on anytime I spray anything. I think I'll stick to polyurethane and shellac, teak and tung oils. But then again never say never!:D

Jack, you are right. Top of the line respirator and good ventilation are first and foremost when spraying anything, especially lacquer and urethanes. Regards, Bill

[Jim Becker]

Waterlox is a true tung oil finish, unlike most of the ones on the market that sport "Tung oil" somewhere in their labeling.

True, Waterlox is manufactured with tung oil. But keep in mind that it's no longer tung oil once the product is "cooked" and turned into varnish. The oil provides some of the nice properties of the product, but it is NOT the same as rubbing some wood with (real) tung oil and letting it cure. Waterlox also uses phenolic resins which also differentiates it from many other varnishes. The combination of the tung oil and the phenolic resins that are ingredients in this product are what makes Waterlox what it is. I happen to like the product and use it quite a bit on turnings.

[Jim Becker]

BTW, where do you buy the Target Water-based Lacquer? Is it from Homestead Finishes? Are dry times as good as conventional lacquers? Are there any blushing problems that are associated with traditional lacquers?

I generally buy my USL and other Target products driectly from Target Coatings, but have sourced from Jeff when I needed some other things. Dry time is comparable to NC Lacquer. I don't spray enough of the stuff to know about the blushing, but suspect that if there is some, it's less than with the NC Lacquer given it's a water bourne finish...blushing is often due to humidity. But I have also learned not to put it on too thick, either...many beginning finishers like me make that mistake. Patience...

[Glenn Hodges]

I use Deft spray lacquer in the can, and after a couple of light coats dry. I rub it with synthetic steel wool. More coats are sprayed until I get the desired finish. I will rub with synthetic steel wool anytime it is needed. I use a lazy susan to turn it around as I spray. Sometimes I use pumicestone and rottenstone to rub it out.