To those with short cyclones

[Cliff Polubinsky]

It's tax return time and this year I'm upgrading my dust collection. I've seen the comments that a short cyclone won't separate as efficiently as a taller cone.

For those who have a short cone, i.e. Jet JCDC, Laguna C Flux, Shop Fox W1869, etc., have you seen this as a problem? Does it mean that you empty the filter bag more often or is there more?

We can skip the posts that reiterate that the taller cyclone is better. I know that. I'm looking for hands on experience with the short cone models.

I have a one person 480 Sq ft shop. The collector will be attached to a Hammer A3-31, Sawstop PCS, 18" Rikon bandsaw and a Supermax 19-38 drum sander.

Thanks for your observations.

Cliff

[Mike Henderson]

Yes, I have a 2HP Laguna dust collector with a short cyclone and it did not work properly. I had to purchase a big Dust Deputy (don't remember the model, maybe XL) and put it in front of my DC.

Prior to doing that, the filter would clog on a regular basis and I'd also have to empty the bag under the filter. With the Dust Deputy in front of the DC the filter just doesn't clog.

Of course, I still have a can under the short cyclone but nothing much ever collects there.

Do yourself a favor and avoid those short cyclones. While I was able to fix my problem, it takes a fair amount of room compared to a proper cyclone. I wish I had never bought the DC I have. Words like "Junk", "POS", etc. come to mind whenever I think of that DC.

Mike

[If you were close to me, I'd sell you mine and buy a proper DC.]

[Doug Dawson]

It's tax return time and this year I'm upgrading my dust collection. I've seen the comments that a short cyclone won't separate as efficiently as a taller cone.

For those who have a short cone, i.e. Jet JCDC, Laguna C Flux, Shop Fox W1869, etc., have you seen this as a problem? Does it mean that you empty the filter bag more often or is there more?


I have the P|Flux 1 (note the _P_ and the _1_.) And it does work properly. There is no bag under the filter, the port under it just needs to be vacuumed out (with the collector itself) every now and then. It’s also reasonably quiet, as dust collectors go, being “mostly” enclosed re the exhaust. People tend to complain about inefficiencies with the higher-hp models, particularly when the cyclone baffle hasn’t been installed.

[Richard Coers]

I only have a Thien baffle in my cartridge filter dust collector, no short cyclone. But I would assume that an engineered system that provides the correct velocity at the cyclone inlet is critical for proper performance. That being said, it assumes that someone really engineered those cyclones to a specific air flow and velocity. We had a professional dust collection company do the system for the model shop at Caterpillar before I retired. After installation they set up instrumentation and gave us a performance chart with directions on how many blast gates had to remain open. Dust collection is far from just a hp rating on a blower to make it perform correctly.

[Alan Schwabacher]

Take a look at Matt Cremona's youtube channel. He has and shows the Laguna. It was extremely poor at dust separation before he added the extra Thein-type baffle, at which point it became mediocre. He clearly says it was worth having in his low-ceilinged shop, but that if you can possible fit a taller one, get that instead as he has done after moving.

My suspicion is that a better designed baffle might improve the separation. I have very low shop ceilings and a shopbuilt Pentz-design cyclone. I use it with small clearances and a short and squat receptacle, and have experimented with a grain auger to feed dust sideways into a larger bin. That almost works: everything except planer shavings transports OK.

See his and Dec 6, 2017 and Jun 15, 2018 videos.

[Dave Seng]

I have a Grizzly G0862 (3HP). It has a short cyclone - I needed to use a short cyclone model because I have a fairly low ceiling in the shop. The dust collector has a 35 gallon barrel and I get about a half gallon of dust and chips in the bag below the filter for every full barrel. Not bad to deal with at all. I run the "beater bars" in the filter at the end of each day in the shop. This particular machine is ~relatively~ quiet - or at least not deafening. My shop is 30x30 and I can easily have a conversation when the dust collector is running - just have to raise my voice a little bit. I've been very happy with it. I'm still running with a couple of Rockler 21 ft 4" hoses and move the connections as needed - not sure enough of the "final" <grin> machine configuration to run hard pipes yet, but even with the two long corrugated hoses I get great air flow. Good luck in your selection of a machine. And don't get sucked too far down the dust collection rabbit hole - remember, perfection is the enemy of Good Enough.

[Steve Wurster]

It's tax return time and this year I'm upgrading my dust collection. I've seen the comments that a short cyclone won't separate as efficiently as a taller cone.

For those who have a short cone, i.e. Jet JCDC, Laguna C Flux, Shop Fox W1869, etc., have you seen this as a problem? Does it mean that you empty the filter bag more often or is there more?

We can skip the posts that reiterate that the taller cyclone is better. I know that. I'm looking for hands on experience with the short cone models.

I have a one person 480 Sq ft shop. The collector will be attached to a Hammer A3-31, Sawstop PCS, 18" Rikon bandsaw and a Supermax 19-38 drum sander.

Thanks for your observations.

Cliff

What is your height limit that is forcing you to look at short cone cyclones?

I'm in a smaller basement shop with similar tools (A3-31, Hammer K3, Grizzly Bandsaw, Supermax 19-38, router table) and am fairly height restricted due to overhead HVAC ducting (and some sprinkler heads). I'm currently running with a Delta 50-760 1.5HP unit that is actually hanging on the wall, with an Oneida Super Dust Deputy mounted underneath that empties into a 35 gallon drum. I've got 5" duct work feeding my tools. Off the SDD there is a 45 degree splitter: one leg goes down to pull from the K3 (that sits right next to the DC), while the other leg goes up into a joist bay, across my shop (~10 ft run of pipe up there above the HVAC duct), and down the other side into a 5" flex hose. That hose is used to collect from all of the other tools, each of which sit against the wall when not in use and have to individually be pulled out to use.

That splitter means I don't have a straight run into the cyclone, which isn't a great solution separation-wise, but it's better usability-wise then what I had before. Previously I had the same setup with the DC and SDD, but the only duct work was behind the K3 and there was a 5x5 wye splitter there for the 5" flex hose. That meant the hose connected into the A3-31 from the front, meaning I had to step over the hose as I used that tool. That was annoying, so I ran that overhead line to get the hose behind the unit. Much better workflow, but definitely a drop in CFM. Still, it seems to work well enough. I was getting some blow-by early on with this solution, but I think I fixed that, although time will tell. I haven't had to do much (or any) jointing or planing since I fixed the blow-by.

I have no good solution for pulling from on top of the saw, so I've been looking to upgrade my DC setup. I've been leaning toward the Oneida V-3000, which I can fit into the shop power-wise. The problem there isn't height as much as it logistical. I'm not sure if the V-3000 will fit into the same spot as my current DC, or if I would need to put it elsewhere and be forced to rearrange things in the shop or surrounding area (e.g. storage shelving unit, lumber storage). Plus I still might have to keep that splitter layout, which isn't beneficial. I'm planning on running with my current setup for another year or so before looking again, however I am thinking about trying to rig up a better overhead solution. Right now I'm using a shop vac for that, but that just doesn't have the power needed, really.

All that to say, don't overlook something like the V-3000 (or V-1500 if you can't go 240V) if you can fit it into your shop. That's a long cone design and supports 6" duct work, and is probably miles ahead of the Jet, Laguna, or Grizzly solutions.

[Bernie Kopfer]

Cost considerations aside have you considered the Oneida Supercell? It would appear to fall into the category of not being overly tall. Reviews are decent about it.

[Doug Dawson]

Take a look at Matt Cremona's youtube channel. He has and shows the Laguna. It was extremely poor at dust separation before he added the extra Thein-type baffle, at which point it became mediocre. He clearly says it was worth having in his low-ceilinged shop, but that if you can possible fit a taller one, get that instead as he has done after moving.

My suspicion is that a better designed baffle might improve the separation. I have very low shop ceilings and a shopbuilt Pentz-design cyclone. I use it with small clearances and a short and squat receptacle, and have experimented with a grain auger to feed dust sideways into a larger bin. That almost works: everything except planer shavings transports OK.

See his and Dec 6, 2017 and Jun 15, 2018 videos.

Well, that was interesting.

I like Matt Cremona, who wouldn’t?, but he was tres casual about reintroducing dust into a controlled environment.

Something that always alarmed me about the [censored] protocols is that they smelled like [the cult-like so-called religion] that makes people slap each other silly on command.

[Justin Rapp]

I have a Laguna CFlux 3. I have it ducted to a bandsaw, table saw, jointer, planer, router table and and a 2 1/2 inch port for the drill press. I've had it now for a month and typically get just a small amount of dust in the filter/ filter bag for each fill of the cyclone collection bin. So, mine is working fantastic and as it should. The key is to make sure there is actually enough airflow getting into the cyclone. At least with my 3hp model, the manual suggests leaving a 2nd port open when reduced to a single 4" port to ensure enough air is getting into the cyclone to ensure proper separation. I think people miss this in their short-cyclone DC models and end up starving the unit of air to do it's job.

[Steve Wurster]

Cost considerations aside have you considered the Oneida Supercell? It would appear to fall into the category of not being overly tall. Reviews are decent about it.

The Supercell has a requirement of 24" clearance above the top of the unit for filter replacement and maintenance. That's listed in the installation manual on their website; I didn't find a reference to it on any of the main product pages.

I've thought about the Supercell as well for my setup, but I'm not convinced it would work well for my needs. For starters the inlet port is only 4", while my biggest need tool-wise has a 120mm (~5") port. Yeah, their literature says it works well for tools with 5" dust ports, but a rating of only 465 CFM probably won't do it for the A3-31 Jointer/Planer. And I don't know how well it would perform with 5" duct work hooked up to it (and I have an investment in 5" Magports, so I wouldn't want to drop down to 4" lines or hoses). Cliff (the OP) has some of the same tools as I do, so this apprehension might apply to him as well.

[Cliff Polubinsky]

All that to say, don't overlook something like the V-3000 (or V-1500 if you can't go 240V) if you can fit it into your shop. That's a long cone design and supports 6" duct work, and is probably miles ahead of the Jet, Laguna, or Grizzly solutions.

Steve,

The V-3000 is one of the options I'm considering. Height and power are no problem. I'm wondering about the short cyclones because they're $700 cheaper. I'm trying to decide if eliminating the drawbacks of the shorter systems are worth the increased cost. While I do have a tendency (history) to go overboard on tools, I go through a process of exploring less costly options first. Also looked at the Clearview but the 30 Amp requirement ruled that one out.

Thanks for everyone's feedback. It helps.

Cliff

[David Publicover]

I have a CWI 2hp short cyclone DC with a HEPA filter hooked up to a Sawstop ICS, 18” bandsaw and a 12” FS30 J/P.
I find it quite loud. I empty the bag under the filter every second or third time I empty the barrel but could go longer. It’s not a big deal. I have a single car garage and for now at least, move the hoses to each machine as required. While I’m sure a 5hp Oneida or ClearVue would be ideal, the CWI seems to do a very good job. My shop is much cleaner and I don’t notice any appreciable dust in the air. I do not measure the particle count so have no scientific data to support my claims. My shop is attached to the house, and I do the dusting and see a big difference from before.
Good luck with your search!

[Steve Wurster]

Steve,

The V-3000 is one of the options I'm considering. Height and power are no problem. I'm wondering about the short cyclones because they're $700 cheaper. I'm trying to decide if eliminating the drawbacks of the shorter systems are worth the increased cost. While I do have a tendency (history) to go overboard on tools, I go through a process of exploring less costly options first. Also looked at the Clearview but the 30 Amp requirement ruled that one out.

Thanks for everyone's feedback. It helps.

Cliff

The Clearview is too tall for my shop, and I also don't want to have to go 30 amps if I don't have to. I'm the same with the tendency to go overboard, but I would prefer to do that with dust collection above almost anything else.

[Andrew Hughes]

Always go big with dust collection. You can never have too much.
I run a Tempest cyclone from penn state its has a 14 inch impeller with 3 hp Chinese motor. I’ve had it a long time works great.
Good Luck

[Ryan Yeaglin]

So here lies the question, knowing that a short cyclone doesn't work as well compared to a longer one, why no pony up the extra money and get something that works like it should without having to monkey with it to make it work. Other list height being the deciding factor, you say you don't have that problem. Also you list you have bought some very nice machines, so why not buy a nice dust collector that works, sure they aren't sexy like a table saw or 15" planer, but make a big difference in how you work overall. The time enjoyed working in your shop rather than having to deal with a piece that causes problems is worth the money to me anyway.

[derek labian]

I have a Grizzly G0862 (3HP). It has a short cyclone - I needed to use a short cyclone model because I have a fairly low ceiling in the shop. The dust collector has a 35 gallon barrel and I get about a half gallon of dust and chips in the bag below the filter for every full barrel. Not bad to deal with at all. I run the "beater bars" in the filter at the end of each day in the shop. This particular machine is ~relatively~ quiet - or at least not deafening. My shop is 30x30 and I can easily have a conversation when the dust collector is running - just have to raise my voice a little bit. I've been very happy with it. I'm still running with a couple of Rockler 21 ft 4" hoses and move the connections as needed - not sure enough of the "final" <grin> machine configuration to run hard pipes yet, but even with the two long corrugated hoses I get great air flow. Good luck in your selection of a machine. And don't get sucked too far down the dust collection rabbit hole - remember, perfection is the enemy of Good Enough.

++^^ What Dave said..

To the OP: I obsessed about this myself recently. The long cones are better, but would the short cone be good enough for my small hobby setup. In the end, after reading everything I could find, I decided to go with the short cone. I haven't set it up yet, and I know its not perfect at collection, but I saved money, it's portable, and I think it will be fine for me.

[Jim Becker]

When the shop itself dictates using the short cone version, that's a good choice over something lesser...'just understand the small difference over the long-cone versions so you can adapt to that including maintaining the filters, etc. If I had to go into a small shop situation for some reason, I'd likely opt for one myself...I'd never use a single stage setup for this application personally.

[Justin Rapp]

++^^ What Dave said..

To the OP: I obsessed about this myself recently. The long cones are better, but would the short cone be good enough for my small hobby setup. In the end, after reading everything I could find, I decided to go with the short cone. I haven't set it up yet, and I know its not perfect at collection, but I saved money, it's portable, and I think it will be fine for me.

I went through this also, and the only way i'd get a long cone model in is if the motor went up between the floor joists. Based on measurements I could have maybe got the Grizzly G0441 and run it with the 35 gallon drum as it would have been 93 5/16 inches and it would have just cleared. In my house, the family room is right above my basement workshop area and the noise is loud enough without the motor right up by the joists.


With that said, my Laguna has fantastic separation. I get very little in the filter/filter bag. About a cup of dust for each dust bin fill.