Splintering when routing rail/stile grooves on cope & stick doors

[scott vroom]

I make cope & stick doors on a router table (no power feeder) and often fight splintering when making the rail/stile groove cuts. I've tried changing the spindle speed and how fast I feed the board. Same result.

I've been thinking for some time about making a VERY shallow climb cut on the first pass...maybe 1/64? I haven't tried test cuts yet but am thinking breaking the surface might reduce or eliminate splintering when routing the full depth groove in the proper direction. Anyone tried this? I'm well aware of the dangers of climb cutting hardwood, although I routinely climb cut a 1/4" groove in plywood to receive the cabinet back.

There was a guy here a few years ago who said he routinely used a power feeder in reverse to climb cut on his shaper with excellent results.

[Mel Fulks]

I would not run climb cut with the real profile cutter. But a climb cut made on the still square stock that rounds the
corners ,and more if possible WILL help. Sometimes even something like a 1/4 " round over climb cut on corners is enuf.

[Kevin Jenness]

If your profile cutter(s) takes a full height cut you can eliminate tearout by overcutting 1/16" or so- if you want to end up with 2 1/4" width start with 2 5/16". Easiest way is with an outboard fence.

Climbcutting will also eliminate tearout but it requires a power feeder and is harder on the cutters as the chips don't clear easily and more heat is generated.

A third method is to score the sides of the panel groove with a mortise gauge.

[Lee Schierer]

Before making your first cut look at the grain on your pieces. Try to feed them so the grain ends are pointing toward the end of each piece to be cut instead of the leading end. Sometimes flipping a piece end for end will eliminate the tear out. You can't always do this, but it works better when you can.

[johnny means]

A sacrificial zero clearance fence will give you nice clean cuts.

[Bob Cooper]

A sacrificial zero clearance fence will give you nice clean cuts.

im trying to think through how to make a zero clearance fence for a stile or rail router bit that has a bearing on it

[Bob Cooper]

If your profile cutter(s) takes a full height cut you can eliminate tearout by overcutting 1/16" or so- if you want to end up with 2 1/4" width start with 2 5/16". Easiest way is with an outboard fence.
.

kevin...just trying to make sure I’m following...are you saying let your stile or rail be a little wider than needed because that would leave room for a second pass? 1/16” in this case and that second pass would not have the tear out?

[Jared Sankovich]

kevin...just trying to make sure I’m following...are you saying let your stile or rail be a little wider than needed because that would leave room for a second pass? 1/16” in this case and that second pass would not have the tear out?

Not a 2nd pass, a full depth + 1/16-1/8". It still tears out but its deep enough it cuts out the tear out.

It doesn't work with a bearing guided router bit though, only a full profile cut

[scott vroom]

The stick profile has a bearing.

[Kevin Jenness]

Remove the bearing and cut an arc out of the back of the sacrificial fence leaving about 1/4" at the face. Attach it to your main fence and carefully break through. If necessary cut a clearance slot for the threaded bearing shank.

Jared explained the principle of the overcut. It is best done with a powerfeed and outboard fence, but the powerfeed can be replaced by featherboards or you can use an offset inboard fence.

[George Bokros]

Assuming you are doing the sticking cut ....

Set your router table fence flush with the bearing as usual. Clamp some UHMW sheeting to the fence and take a shallow cut then remove the UHMW and make the full depth cut. I use a piece of 1/4" and a piece of 1/8 inch stacked against the fence. Make a pass then remove the 1/8", make a pass remove the 1/4" and put the 1/8" back in place, make a pass then remove the 1/8" and make the final pass.

I do this also for the raised panel bit.

If you are doing the cope cut use a a backer board behind the rail.

[Charles Grauer]

Bob: IF the splintering is on the end make a follower backup board. Make the opposite cut to fit the profile and stick it on the side that is the end of the cut. Always have a backup to follow the rail.

[Rod Sheridan]

im trying to think through how to make a zero clearance fence for a stile or rail router bit that has a bearing on it

If you're using it in a fence system it shouldn't have a bearing, remove it.

I use an outboard fence on the shaper and profile and dimension in one pass, using a stock feeder of course............Rod.

[George Bokros]

If you're using it in a fence system it shouldn't have a bearing, remove it.............Rod.

Rail and stile bits always have a bearing. Without a bearing fence set up would be very difficult.

[Cary Falk]

I always cut my rail and stiles wider than they need to be. I make a shallow cut the first time and then follow with the full depth. If I see that the profile is not to my liking, I run the edge the edge through the jointer to take a 1/16 of whatever it takes to get rid of the splintering/whatever and then back to the shaper. After the edge is good I cut to final width. This takes more time but I don't do it professionally.

[scott vroom]

Interesting....a step-down zero clearance system. Worth a try, US Plastics sells both 1/4" & 1/8" x 12 x 24 UHMW online for a reasonable price. One downside is the time it would take to set up and run the 4 passes, particularly if you're making 10-20 doors.
Assuming you are doing the sticking cut ....

Set your router table fence flush with the bearing as usual. Clamp some UHMW sheeting to the fence and take a shallow cut then remove the UHMW and make the full depth cut. I use a piece of 1/4" and a piece of 1/8 inch stacked against the fence. Make a pass then remove the 1/8", make a pass remove the 1/4" and put the 1/8" back in place, make a pass then remove the 1/8" and make the final pass.

I do this also for the raised panel bit.

If you are doing the cope cut use a a backer board behind the rail.

[scott vroom]

Cary, do you get consistently splinter-free edges on the final profile pass after the jointer step? I also am in the habit of milling wider rail/stile stock to start, it's a good hedge against mistakes rather that having to mill a new piece from scratch. I'm going to try your method...it adds little time to the profiling process. I'm not a professional but I do an occasional kitchen/bath/laundry/built-in storage etc job for my general contractor son when the local commercial shops are booked too far out to meet his schedule, which is becoming common around Central Oregon with the current housing boom. My hourly pay is dismal given my low productivity compared to the commercial shops, but it keeps me busy and I enjoy the work.



I always cut my rail and stiles wider than they need to be. I make a shallow cut the first time and then follow with the full depth. If I see that the profile is not to my liking, I run the edge the edge through the jointer to take a 1/16 of whatever it takes to get rid of the splintering/whatever and then back to the shaper. After the edge is good I cut to final width. This takes more time but I don't do it professionally.

[Cary Falk]

Cary, do you get consistently splinter-free edges on the final profile pass after the jointer step? I also am in the habit of milling wider rail/stile stock to start, it's a good hedge against mistakes rather that having to mill a new piece from scratch. I'm going to try your method...it adds little time to the profiling process. I'm not a professional but I do an occasional kitchen/bath/laundry/built-in storage etc job for my general contractor son when the local commercial shops are booked too far out to meet his schedule, which is becoming common around Central Oregon with the current housing boom. My hourly pay is dismal given my low productivity compared to the commercial shops, but it keeps me busy and I enjoy the work.

I usually do unless the wood is just problematic and I have to get a new piece(this is rare).

[Rod Sheridan]

Rail and stile bits always have a bearing. Without a bearing fence set up would be very difficult.

Why?

I set up my shaper fence without a bearing, why does a router table need a bearing on the bit if a fence is being used?

Regards, Rod.

[scott vroom]

Why?

I set up my shaper fence without a bearing, why does a router table need a bearing on the bit if a fence is being used?

Regards, Rod.

Rod,

Cope and stick router bits come with a bearing and are typically sold as a matching set which enables very quick set up, no set-up blocks/trial and error required for depth of cut. Bearings aren't required but they sure are convenient.

[johnny means]

im trying to think through how to make a zero clearance fence for a stile or rail router bit that has a bearing on it

I set the actual fence back by the thickness of my sacrificial material. I then push the sacrificial faces into the cut until they hit the bearing. This cuts a perfect profile into both faces. back them out of the cut a 16th or so and attach in place. The 16th just helps with heat build up and chip clearance.

[Kevin Jenness]

If you want to leave the bearing on just cut a vertical slot or drill a hole in the sacrificial fence for clearance for the bearing before breaking through.

[mreza Salav]

Do the ends of the rails first (with a backer board to prevent splinter at the end of the cut). Then do the rest.
Using good quality/sharp bits makes a big difference. Cheap/budget bits don't work as nicely.

[Jared Sankovich]

Are you having the issue with the same VG Fir from the other thread?

[scott vroom]

Not yet...I started this thread looking for ideas before beginning that project. I just finished an oak kitchen and fought the splintering throughout.

[Mel Fulks]

[QUOTE=Kevin Jenness;3089618]If your profile cutter(s) takes a full height cut you can eliminate tearout by overcutting 1/16" or so- if you want to end up with 2 1/4" width start with 2 5/16". Easiest way is with an outboard fence

I certainly agree on the extra 1/16 th thing and have always done that. But I see it as mainly a way to make sure all the
copes fit well by having that extra. Without that ,no matter how carefully you prepare your material ,you might have a little dip ithat might
make a muntin show a slight gap. And, of course...the extra 1/16th eliminates jointing edges ,as it will be removed.
by the profile run. With real short rails and muntins You can line them up end touching end and staple a piece of
plywood to the backs. That eliminates the dips sometimes found on short profiled rails and muntins....and even LONG
pieces....not cut with good guidance of an outboard fence.

[Robert Engel]

Scooter, there’s a couple ways to deal with it.

Checking grain direction helps a lot. Some wood is hard to deal with no matter what.

If needed, I rip a 1/16th off the profile edge and run it again. But you have to remember to make your material a bit wider.

Another way is to make a very shallow pass initially.

I’ve also seen some people make an initial dado cut on table saw.

ZCI sounds good, but how would dust collection work?

Last but not least, it can be about the router bits. Some bit sets are made (CMT I believe) that make a very slight round over on the groove edges.

[Kevin Jenness]

Tearout on cope/stick profile cuts, in my experience, mainly occurs at the groove edges. Tearout elsewhere is suppressed for the same reason that the overcut technique and zero clearance fences work-the finished surface is backed up before the tool exits the workpiece. Tearout elsewhere is relatively rare and can be attributed to contrary or figured grain, poorly designed or dull cutters, or too fast a feed rate. Sometimes it can be alleviated with a light, slow second cut.

You can reliably prevent tearout at the exit points of the groove by pre-scoring with a mortise gauge. It's an extra step but fairly quick and is independent of the fence setup.

"ZCI sounds good, but how would dust collection work?"

Works just fine.

[Dave Sabo]

Sharper bit ?

[scott vroom]

I'll be using a Whiteside 5990 Shaker Profile Stile & Rail Router Bit Set on the VGF doors I'll be making next week. I've used the set only once, 28 doors on a kitchen/bath job, alder species with some minor tear out on the groove edges. I don't expect cutter sharpness to be an issue. The Whiteside groove bit is a straight square cut with no edge rounding. For the red oak job I mentioned above where I had unacceptable splintering on the groove cut, I used a new Freud 99-760 round over rail/stile set. I think the red oak species may have been the culprit.

I'll run a few test pieces using a couple of the above suggested methods, will post results. Many thanks for all the responses.

[mreza Salav]

Are you referring to the groove for the panel? the edges of the groove are tearing out?
In that case do a first very shallow pass (if you can manage do a climb cut there) and then a full depth pass (not climb cut). The first pass will create a clean groove edge and the subsequent pass will take care of the rest....

[scott vroom]

Are you referring to the groove for the panel? the edges of the groove are tearing out?
In that case do a first very shallow pass (if you can manage do a climb cut there) and then a full depth pass (not climb cut). The first pass will create a clean groove edge and the subsequent pass will take care of the rest....


Mreza, yes precisely....rail/stile groove edges are tearing out. My test cuts will include a very shallow climb cut first pass followed by a full depth second pass in the correct direction.

One disadvantage of the router table & no power feeder is the ability to hold the stock perfectly flat to the table and fence. My upcoming project includes 2 doors with 73" long stiles across my 32" wide table. I don't do enough volume to justify upgrading to a shaper/power feed....but I'm working on talking myself into it anyway :).

[mreza Salav]

If you have a power feeder and strong enough router table you can use it on it. I've used it extensively when building a lot of doors. I have bolted it to a 3/8" thick plate and use clamps to hold the plate secure to the table. Move the whole setup to the shaper when needed.

449861449862449863

[Mel Fulks]

I see no value in multiple passes ,it can work ,but is certainly not reliable. Two passes take twice as long as one pass.
Climb cuts work but usually give a more ripply surface, for painted stuff it might not matter, on stained work it shows.
I suggested rounding the sharp corners of the stock. That helps and can be done with sand paper or router climb cut.
TRY it. If it makes no sense to you ...try looking at this way. A sharp square corner can be like a loose thread in cloth
that causes unraveling . Cut off the loose thread...and round over the square corners with sandpaper or router climb
with small round over bit.

[Jared Sankovich]

I don't do enough volume to justify upgrading to a shaper/power feed....but I'm working on talking myself into it anyway :).

A lot of people seem to think the advantage of a shaper is production volume (which can be true) but the significant advantage is cut quality.

[Mel Fulks]

A lot of people seem to think the advantage of a shaper is production volume (which can be true) but the significant advantage is cut quality.

I agree that's often the case. But I think it's more what cutters are commonly used . Shaper guys often have more steel
knives than carbide. Few shops have ANY steel router bits, and with careful use and slower rpm the steel router bits
make excellent cuts. Some shop owners don't know that. Some know that but also know their guys will run them too fast
and ruin them. In useing my own steel bits in employments fellow workers older than me would say they didn't know
steel bits existed. And I've seen jobs go too slowly because carbide bits were used too dull and too slowly ,making a lot
burn lines. And they take some time to sand out !
In shops that are run by hired foremen ,and NOT the owner , the formen will sometimes buy cheap stuff that they
know is slow and inefficient because they get a big bonus if they they keep spending down ! I've only SEEN that in one
employment but I'm pretty sure that dim bulb never had an original idea.

[Mel Fulks]

In reading grain to see in what direction the stock should be run ,many will look only at the growth rings....and sometimes
that's all you can see. But you can also check best direction with a sharp knife. When you can see small little dash lines,
I find their direction a better indicator than the growth ring grain. An old timer showed me that on one of my first jobs.
But I've never seen that in print ....before this post.

[Robert Engel]

Scott,

Sommerfeld tools carries bit sets the profile bit does a slight round over on the edges of the grooves. I’ve never used one, but thought it would be something to consider. If they work it sure would save some headaches.

I’ve got a couple of their bit sets they are made by CMT and branded under Marc’s name. BTW Marc’s brother is Kreg, the Kreg jig guy.

[Rod Sheridan]

Not yet...I started this thread looking for ideas before beginning that project. I just finished an oak kitchen and fought the splintering throughout.

Hi Scott, I looked at the cutter you're using, it doesn't have any scoring cutters, just hogging cutters.

Here's what I use for grooving, it has scoring and hogging cutters, are there any router bits like that?

Regards, Rod.

449918

[Mel Fulks]

[QUOTE=Robert Engel;3090370]Scott,

Sommerfeld tools carries bit sets the profile bit does a slight round over on the edges of the grooves. I’ve never used one, but thought it would be something to consider. If they work it sure would save some headaches.

I've seen those. A guy brought a catalog pic into the shop. We all had a good laugh!!. If you can sell cabinet doors with
gutters ....STOP ! And get into real estate sales ! The principle of the round over is the same as what I suggested ......but
the result is ugly . Since my climb-cut round over can be done with the highest shaper speed ...the method I was taught
is sure-fire and .....makes a lot more sense than staying healthy by dressing up like the LONG RANGER.......HIGH HO...
off to work I go !

[scott vroom]

To follow up, I ended up doing the profiling in 2 passes: an initial 1/16 climb cut followed by a full depth pass in the proper direction. Of the 16 rail/stile pieces profiled, only 2 had minor splinters. For those I simply edge jointed and made another pass on the router table with no further splintering. I had milled the pieces a bit wider to allow for that extra step.

Thanks again to all for the ideas and advice. Here's the 2 cabs installed...no trim/hardware yet, the GC will add in a few days.

[Mel Fulks]

Yes, the SMALL n’ SAFE round over climb-cut paves the way...for smooth sailing. Some “safety rules” are written by people who think
tradesmen are dumb-bells.