Guard style for minimax FS 30c

[Jeff Ranck]

So I purchased a minimax FS 30c a year or two ago. When I purchased it, my original thinking was to equip it with the euro style guard. The rep pointed out that the euro style guard doesn't meet US regs and strongly recommended I go with the US style porkchop guard. I agreed and purchased the US style guard. However, fast forward a year or two and I'm really not happy with the US style guard. When face jointing wide boards, the guard slams against the fence after the board passes through with significant force. It isn't such a big deal on a narrow jointer, but with the wide jointer of the FS 30, it is a much bigger deal. I find myself reaching to keep the two from slamming together, and then realizing that it isn't such a good idea to reach toward the cutter head.

In any event, I'm now reconsidering my choice and wondering if I should spring for the euro style guard and replace my current guard. I'm looking for folks that have experience with both styles and which you like/use and why.

[Brian Holcombe]

The only style of guard I have used and actually like is the segmented style of pork chop that Martin puts on their American market machines. It’s great, and does not get in the way.

[John TenEyck]

I've used both styles and prefer the porkchop on my FS-30. But I'm in the minority and many are going to tell you the Euro is superior. I'm not sure why the guard banging into the fence bothers you, that's what it's supposed to do, but since it does why not just put a piece of self stick foam weather stripping along the edge of the guard. The advantage of the porkchop guard is that you don't ever have to adjust it; it just works. The Euro guard requires adjustment for how high it sits and how far it extends over the table for every board of different width/thickness. I also don't like that the blade is exposed before the board covers it, whether edge or face jointing. Further, you have to reach over the guard when face jointing. With the porkchop guard the only time the blades are exposed is after the workpiece exists the cutterhead, before the guard closes. But if your hands are where they are supposed to be there's no danger.

John

[David Publicover]

I have the pork chop version on mine and never noticed it hitting the fence with unusual force or noise. John’s weatherstripping seems a good solution though. I like that the pork chop guard doesn’t need constant adjustments but do find it can get in the way putting the fence back on.

[Matthew Hills]

My old delta jointer had a porkchop guard. I didn't like the loud clang when it hit the fence, so I put some thick double-sided tape as a bumper on the guard and also adjusted the tension of the return spring so it wouldn't strike as hard. It was usable this way.

Now I have an A3-31 with euro guard. It is nice for never really leaving the cutter head exposed like with the porkchop, but it is requiring some adjustments that I'm gradually getting used to:

The euro guard needs to be pulled out when edge jointing. I'm accustomed to moving with the wood when jointing, so this is an extra obstacle. It also means that I'm more likely to do all my edge jointing towards the back of the jointer.

With the porkchop guard, I'm used to being able to manage the pressure on the leading edge as it reaches the outfeed table. With the euro guard, this isn't quite as easy, as the wood goes under the guard and your pad/hand need to come off just as the board is approaching the cutterhead and until it is well onto the outfeed table. This feels like it is a bit more difficult to maintain consistent pressure and might be really annoying if trying to remove twist. Although hasn't affected the first few projects through the jointer.

Matt

[Mike Kees]

I prefer the euro guards. Cutterhead is covered the entire time ,and it is way easier to figure out where the danger zone is. Took me all of about 1/2 an hour to adjust to using one,I would never go back to a pork chop guard. When face jointing I put my front hand about 6"-8" back from the end of the board. When my hand gets to the guard I lift my fingers and slide over back on to the wood. My thumb says on the backside till my fingers contact wood to maintain feed pressure.

[Jim Becker]

I put the bridge guard on my FS-350 and haven't looked back. I really don't like the pork-chops at all, especially since I primarily use the jointer for face jointing/flattening and rarely for edges. The big, plastic pork chops also tend to break...I went through two of them before making the move to the bridge guard.

[Warren Lake]

some one needs to invent something better in actual use both types have annoying aspects to working the material and disrupt the natural flow over the knives. ILl go hide now.

[Jim Becker]

Interestingly, Warren, I find it very natural for my left hand to float over the bridge guard and it's very natural for pulling the workpiece back over it to set up for another pass. But maybe that's just me...

[John TenEyck]

some one needs to invent something better in actual use both types have annoying aspects to working the material and disrupt the natural flow over the knives. ILl go hide now.

It's been invented. See Brian's comment above relative to the segmented porkchop guard. They look similar to a pork chop guard:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eouRYQDCOisWqx7YLZSM3SEJUC_EeOBQfSnGk8jqgNmKdp4c4 6u3e06hWKSJE6Tfo781_0zh9RLtiQ_F0ldReIHn5aWtnCzSAL3 4m8fiv-k3q7F7DTCQyIgubq4jwPciBrN_NpAHKhEkoSwQJjC5epuQ=w60 0-h450-no?authuser=0

But instead of sticking out in space when you push the workpiece through the cutterhead, they cascade down over the side of the machine. Very clever, and almost mandatory on a 16" wide jointer like this 1600 lb beast.

John

[Warren Lake]

segmented better as its not in the way of your body, zero protection at the end of the board as its held away and the knives are exposed.


here is a guard, he has no control of the material. Id rather have no guard and a proper push stick though its not a stick what I would use.

448529




Im not sure what you would call this but its useless as set up.


448530

[John TenEyck]

I have to admit it scared the heck out of me when I first started using it, looking down at 14" of spinning bodily parts chewing steel, but once I realized there was no danger as long as my hands stayed on the board I became a convert of the porkchop guard over the Euro guard which I had used for over 25 years on my previous J/P. No guard is perfect and all have their advantages and disadvantages. Pick the one you think best fits the way you work and learn to use it - always.


John

[Warren Lake]

yeah agree no perfect guard.

jointing really long boards the gaurd was useless and more so was in the way, I could not drop on. You have the option to pull the fence towards you so at that point the porkchop does zero compared to not having it, at the end of the board your knives are exposed either way. Only thing pulling the fence close is you would wear your knives more always using that area. It also depends how you joint.

I respect the damage it can do, what does annoy me is the wood not gliding nice. When its right the wood is like a hovercraft and no friction over the tables. I ran out of auto paste wax then used some synthetic that worked horrible then liquid carnuba that was pretty good, then PFTE WD stuff and it leaves a residue then went back to parrafin and some swipes of that. Still not having the hovercraft experience and for me its most dangerous when stuff glides then sort of loads up like its got suction to the table right as you are going. Im next going to try one of my auto buffers on it. The car paste wax I had worked well and never caused finishing issues at least that brand.

[Jeff Ranck]

Thanks Everyone. I'm not sure where I would find a segmented pork chop that fit the FS 30c, but I'll look around.

@Warren: I agree that one safety tip is to make sure that everything glides nicely. I use a huge candle I keep around the shop for my planes. a few swipes now and again keeps the boards sliding nicely.

[Kevin Jenness]

Jeff, have you tried adjusting the spring pressure on your guard? It should be simple to do if yours has a housed coil spring at the pivot, just loosen the holding screw and adjust the preload.

I have used all the guards mentioned and like the tambour porkchop style best. I am lazy and haven't gotten around to making one, but it would not be hard to do. The one I used on a Unitronix like John shows was made with wooden segments backed with leather.

At my old gig we had a Laguna 16" with a Euro bridge guard. I had no problem with getting used to it and passing my hands over it when flattening. That guard was on a floating arm and I found it easy to press it down on the stock when running short pieces. Dropping on was no more difficult for me than with a porkchop guard. I found however that some of the crew would pull the guard back sideways for flattening which amounted to having no guard at all. They seemed to be the same people that would push the overhead guard on the tablesaw out of the way. The porkchop would have been safer overall in that situation because it could not be bypassed. Safety features are useless if ignored.

[John TenEyck]

yeah agree no perfect guard.

jointing really long boards the gaurd was useless and more so was in the way, I could not drop on. You have the option to pull the fence towards you so at that point the porkchop does zero compared to not having it, at the end of the board your knives are exposed either way. Only thing pulling the fence close is you would wear your knives more always using that area. It also depends how you joint.

I respect the damage it can do, what does annoy me is the wood not gliding nice. When its right the wood is like a hovercraft and no friction over the tables. I ran out of auto paste wax then used some synthetic that worked horrible then liquid carnuba that was pretty good, then PFTE WD stuff and it leaves a residue then went back to parrafin and some swipes of that. Still not having the hovercraft experience and for me its most dangerous when stuff glides then sort of loads up like its got suction to the table right as you are going. Im next going to try one of my auto buffers on it. The car paste wax I had worked well and never caused finishing issues at least that brand.

I've always had good luck with common paste wax, and Lundmark carnauba paste wax is my favorite for this and many other things.

John

[Jeff Ranck]

Jeff, have you tried adjusting the spring pressure on your guard? It should be simple to do if yours has a housed coil spring at the pivot, just loosen the holding screw and adjust the preload.

...

This is something I need to do.

[Erik Loza]

I personally prefer the American-style guard to the Euro-guard but the biggest complaint I got about the porkchop that the Italians sourced out was not so much design but that it was such a flimsy piece of plastic and fussy to keep a consistent springback tension on. The porkchop for the F410 Nova jointers is actually really nice. Rigid, glass-reinforced, with a metal bushing for the mouting bolt. Not sure if there’s a similar option for 310mm machines but could be worth a look.

Erik

[Jeff Ranck]

thanks for the lead. I do think the current US style guard I have is exceedingly flimsy.

[Warren Lake]

me as well John. I learned to detail in LA many years ago and came home with two cans of some brand of auto paste wax. It went on, dried, hand wiped micro fiber and stuff slid well. Also parafin from the grocery storey, comes in blocks not sure what they use it for but I use that on hand planes, the difference is dramatic. I get that shop temp and humidity will have a bit of affect on it as well.

I found a can of some stuff called Sprayway last night, must have been from the old guy and not much left. Seems the same type of label as the WD stuff showing it sprayed on blades and for woodwork stuff. Still prefer a wipe on to a spray. My liquid carnuba was good but still think the wipe on paste will leave the thickest layer. I had the old stuff so long it had gone mouldy, I was still using it on cars, it was so thick it was hard to put on, then harder to remove. The gliding well while not guarding this post is about its still part of safety on a jointer. Im not sure which type of guarding I would prefer.

[Matthew Hills]

Just saw a video for an A3-41 where they switch to a short euro guard for edge jointing: https://youtu.be/FqdV5kvRSBM?t=267

Matt

[Erik Loza]

Just saw a video for an A3-41 where they switch to a short euro guard for edge jointing: https://youtu.be/FqdV5kvRSBM?t=267

Matt

That is really clever. Had not seen it before. Thanks for posting.

Erik

[Jim Becker]

That is really clever. Had not seen it before. Thanks for posting.

Erik

Erik, I actually considered taking a section off my guard to use for edge jointing since it's "universal" and can cover a 410mm machine and mine is only 350mm. But I never executed on it since I rarely edge joint. :) It's nice to have a slider...

[Erik Loza]

Erik, I actually considered taking a section off my guard to use for edge jointing since it's "universal" and can cover a 410mm machine and mine is only 350mm. But I never executed on it since I rarely edge joint. :) It's nice to have a slider...

Jim, I brainstormed that too. Maybe DIY a "comfort-style" Euro guard, where the sections fall away, but never made it past the daydreaming stage. I think that wooden guard is a great idea. Or, buy a second extrusion and just cut it down. I believe Sam did that for the rip fence on his combo machine.

Erik

[Mike Wilkins]

Started with the pork chop and now into the Euro set-up. The Euro guard does hit you near the nether regions when edge jointing, but using it over time you get used to it.
I have seen a person using the Euro set up procure a second guard, cut it down into shorter sections and use the one that best works with the width of board being jointed. Thinking of doing the same for my Hammer A3-41.

[Rod Wolfy]

Yea, that was a good video.

I actually ordered my Hammer A3-41 with an extra factory blade guard, which added like $30 to my order. The plan is to cut it in half, so that when I'm using the fence at a (closer to the user side) location, I can not have to step around a 12"+ wide guard. On a slow boat from Europe. Arriving next month...

I wish they offered the folding comfort guard for the Hammer, though.

[johnny means]

I'd like to see some data on accidents with the porkchop guards vs bridge type guards. It's always struck me as odd that a guard be designed in such a way as to politely step out the way should I thrust my fingers towards the blade.

[John TenEyck]

I'd like to see some data on accidents with the porkchop guards vs bridge type guards. It's always struck me as odd that a guard be designed in such a way as to politely step out the way should I thrust my fingers towards the blade.

Your comment is absolutely true, and no different than what might happen with the Euro guard if it's set for face jointing 8/4 stock, or edge jointing something a few inches wide. All guards have weak points and all require some operator awareness.

John

[Brian Holcombe]

The suv-a-matic resolves that, since it retracts downward toward the table. Downside is that it sticks out 9”
from the side of the machine.

[John TenEyck]

The suv-a-matic resolves that, since it retracts downward toward the table. Downside is that it sticks out 9”
from the side of the machine.

Yes, that's a very nice system.

John

[Jeff Ranck]

A quick search says the guard is about $1800. I'm having a hard time picturing how a guard can cost that much.

[Erik Loza]

A quick search says the guard is about $1800. I'm having a hard time picturing how a guard can cost that much.


I wondered when that would get noticed :D

Seriously, though: Suvamatic stuff is awesome but not cheap. We can order it as an OEM option on Format4 machinery (just like Aigner) but not on the smaller Felders or Hammers. They make an awesome riving knife mounted pop-up sawblade guard. The issue with Suvamatic is that they don't (unless that's changed recently) have any direct distributor here in the US. Scott & Sargent in the UK is the nearest I can think of.

Erik

[Brian Holcombe]

I’m just glad there are folks out there making nice equipment. Things tend to get exponentially more expensive as they improve, that’s the nature of this.

[Ron Selzer]

Yea, that was a good video.

I actually ordered my Hammer A3-41 with an extra factory blade guard, which added like $30 to my order. The plan is to cut it in half, so that when I'm using the fence at a (closer to the user side) location, I can not have to step around a 12"+ wide guard. On a slow boat from Europe. Arriving next month...

I wish they offered the folding comfort guard for the Hammer, though.

Might reconsider cutting it in half to cut into 1/3 and 2/3 this would give you multiple widths instead of just 1 width
Ron

[John TenEyck]

A quick search says the guard is about $1800. I'm having a hard time picturing how a guard can cost that much.


Yes indeed. That guard costs almost as much as I paid for my used FS-30. I know you can't put a price on bodily parts, but basic guards and situational awareness has worked well for about 40 years.

John

[John Lanciani]

Might reconsider cutting it in half to cut into 1/3 and 2/3 this would give you multiple widths instead of just 1 width
Ron

I did exactly that when I bought my 16" J/P years ago. Having three different lengths of guard is incredibly flexible. It let's me do edges without reaching over the whole machine or having to navigate around an unwieldy guard sticking out where I want to stand.

[Brian Holcombe]

My guard is on its last legs so I plan to buy a guard for the SCM 'Nova' jointer and either use it as is or turn it into a segmented style guard. The nova guard has a cast iron mounting point and is a bit more substantial than the plastic job that comes on the minimax machines.

I used the Martin segmented guard when I was at Chris Hall's shop last year and it was nice to be able to joint narrow pieces without having to walk around 20" of guard, 9" of guard or any amount of guard. It folds down completely flat to the machine.

Ultimately I feel about this like I do about any of the other machines I own, situational awareness and careful planning and going to do more to prevent injury than anything else.

[Rod Wolfy]

Might reconsider cutting it in half to cut into 1/3 and 2/3 this would give you multiple widths instead of just 1 width
Ron

Actually, that was the plan, Ron. I was thinking it would do well at 6" & 10".

I probably should have done that years ago, when I had a Felder BF631, or on my Jet J/P 12"HH. It's always been a nuisance. I'm going to make a rapid adapter for the handwheel, too.

[Warren Lake]

my view still is they need to be better. They impede too much depending on how you work.

If you edge joint a board you can pull your fence over and work in the first three inches. At that point the guards that stick out the side are almost comical. I know of two people that have lost fingers and think both were pork chop guards. The board held the guard away. Even the pork chop the folds over the side is still a fail at the end of the board, its only purpose like the pork chop is to cover knives the further to the right you work on the machine. No protection on he final of the board as it passes over the knives. When the board is on the knives the board is a guard in itself and the longer it is the better.

I had looked for a world class fail I had seen before and didnt find it and while you tube bouncing saw this, far from ideal. how do you get rid of the photo below.


448914