New Plane Purchase

[Peter Widders]

Happy New Year to all.

I am looking to pick up a Lie Nielsen No 4 and would appreciate comments/suggestions on the frog angle I should get: 45, 50 or 55 degree.

Most use will be for smoothing as I have a couple of good Stanley Cabinet Scrapers. Some use will be on hardwoods with a bit of figure.

Comments and feedback greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Peter Widders
Sydney, Australia

[Jim Matthews]

The 45 degree frog is preferable for North American wood species. If you're working in domestic timber 50 degrees is a suitable compromise.

Personally, I think Aussie Plane maker HNT Gordon makes an excellent handled smoother (albeit with only a single, stout blade).

[Michael Bulatowicz]

If you’re willing to tune and use the cap iron (chipbreaker) I’d suggest the 45 degree frog. Move the edge of the cap iron close to the blade’s edge (eyeballing it, I go as close as about 1/32 to 1/64 inch) for dealing with reversing grain and don’t be afraid to skew the plane or flip it around as needed. Between this, a light cut, and a super sharp blade I have been able to plane knotty white pine with no tearout. Meanwhile, the 45 degree frog will make for somewhat easier cutting and a somewhat better surface finish.

The design of the leading edge of the Lie-Nielsen cap iron is very similar to the Veritas “Stanley replacement” cap iron, with which I have direct experience (and which was involved in planing the aforementioned white pine). As described elsewhere by Derek Cohen, add a steep “microbevel” to the leading edge of the cap iron—mine is at roughly 75 degrees—and polish the leading edge “microbevel” to reduce friction between the cap iron and shaving. You’ll also need to verify a tight fit between the iron and cap iron with no light leaking through the contact area when held up to a strong light.

[Warren Mickley]

We have used the double iron (plane iron and cap iron) to control tear out for over 250 years. The double iron made high angle planes obsolete. The high angle frogs were developed by people who did not know how to use a double iron plane.

I recommend you buy the 45 degree plane and learn how to use it.

[David Bassett]

... Comments and feedback greatly appreciated... Sydney, Australia

Derek Cohen will probably swing by, but even if he doesn't check in on this thread, check out his project builds here and on his website and look for his tool reviews & instructional articles. He regularly works with your native woods and has discussed setting and using the chip breaker with them.

PS- tl;dr get the 45-degree frog and use the chip breaker.

[Thomas Crawford]

I use 45 degree frogs and since I don't like endlessly fiddling with the chipbreaker I use a different bevel up plane with a high angle for interlocked or reversing grain. Most of the time the standard plane is fine.

[Curt Putnam]

I bought my LN #4 with a 55° frog. Used it a few times and promptly bought a 45° frog. Learn how to shape the LN cap iron for best results. As already montioed go to Derek Cohen's site InTheWoodShop.com and spend lots of time there.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Peter

I value both BU and BD smoothers.

Working with our hard and interlocked timbers in Western Australia, I gravitated to planes with high cutting angles. These can be divided into two categories: BU planes, such as those from Veritas. Simply add a high 50 degree secondary bevel, and you are in Heavan. Or in BD, the HNT Gordon 60 degree smoother. Fantastic! Contrast this with a LN #3 or #4 1/2 (which I own and use) with 55 degree frogs, and you have a boat anchor - the high cutting angle in the LN is very hard to push, and you will stop using it. It has a high centre of effort, compared with the low centre of effort in the other two planes.

I moved progressively to BD planes several years ago, after mastering setting the chipbreaker on Stanleys, LN and Veritas BD planes. The LN planes returned to a 45 degree frog. One of my go-to smoothers is a Veritas Custom Plane, and it has a 42 degree frog. Why 42 degrees? Well, a lower cutting angle is expected to produce a better surface finish compared with one off a high cutting angle. The difference is subtle, however, with hard woods. Still, what Warren writes about a chipbreaker trumping a high cutting angle in regard to tear out is correct in my experience. With a closed up chipbreaker, it is possible to plane the junction of a book-matched panel (where the grain runs in opposing directions) without any tearout. Even a high cutting angle struggles here.

Bottom line: 45 degrees in a LN frog. Even 50 degrees, as a compromise, is not a significant enough change up for Aussie woods. And higher than that and you will hate the effort of planing, forcing you into the finest of shavings to avoid the resistance. If you use a LN with a 45 degree frog, you must learn to use the chipbreaker. Now, if you are not keen on doing the latter, then get a high angled HNT Gordon or a BU smoother.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Matthews]

I recommend you buy the 45 degree plane and learn how to use it.

He's in Australia. 45 degrees and a cap iron work fine for European and North American hardwoods.

http://www.woodreview.com.au/reviews/tough-timbers

[Warren Mickley]

He's in Australia. 45 degrees and a cap iron work fine for European and North American hardwoods.

http://www.woodreview.com.au/reviews/tough-timbers

Years ago Australian woods were really hyped up on some of our forums. I had guys who had never seen jarrah telling me I would be unable to plane it. "Its like concrete".When I got some about ten years ago, it was almost a disappointment. And guys who were only familiar with a half a dozen woods were pretending to be knowledgeable about "tame domestic hardwoods."

We have difficult woods here in America also, but we tend not to use them for cabinetmaking. I took a piece of wood that grew in Pennsylvania to a Lie Nielsen event one time. The guy tried a 55 degree frog, a toothing iron, a 45 degree frog, a bevel up at 60 degrees, freshly sharpened, closed mouth, you name it. He tore away a quarter inch of thickness, but it was it was a lot rougher than if it had been cut with a band saw. The other side I had planed very nicely with a Stanley Handyman plane.

[Derek Cohen]

Years ago Australian woods were really hyped up on some of our forums. I had guys who had never seen jarrah telling me I would be unable to plane it. "Its like concrete".When I got some about ten years ago, it was almost a disappointment. And guys who were only familiar with a half a dozen woods were pretending to be knowledgeable about "tame domestic hardwoods."

We have difficult woods here in America also, but we tend not to use them for cabinetmaking. I took a piece of wood that grew in Pennsylvania to a Lie Nielsen event one time. The guy tried a 55 degree frog, a toothing iron, a 45 degree frog, a bevel up at 60 degrees, freshly sharpened, closed mouth, you name it. He tore away a quarter inch of thickness, but it was it was a lot rougher than if it had been cut with a band saw. The other side I had planed very nicely with a Stanley Handyman plane.


Need I remind you, Warren, how you have railed at those who generalise "white oak", saying that the variations are large. So you tried a piece of Jarrah 10 years ago, and now you are expert enough to make your proclamations?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Warren Mickley]

It sounds as if you are slowly coming around to my point of view.

[David Silverson]

I enjoy your posts Warren for their knowledge and insight, I wish however that you could get rid of the snideness and sarcasm. Perhaps you need a new year's resolution.

[john zulu]

My experience for Malaysia hardwood is similar to Derek explanation. Bevel up will do well and less effort while planing. BD at higher angles are difficult with interlocking grains.
BU and BD has it's place.

[Jim Matthews]

I enjoy your posts Warren for their knowledge and insight, I wish however that you could get rid of the snideness and sarcasm. Perhaps you need a new year's resolution.
The tedious never catch on.

[Peter Widders]

Thanks to all for the replies to my question.
The local supplier here is out of the standard 45deg No 4 so it will be a waiting game from here.