DC Confidential

[rick fulton]

No, not the CBS TV show.
No, not the new book by the ex-British Ambassador.

I’m talking real intrigue and suspense. I’m talking complex schemes to coerce a dust particle to fall into a black hole before it has a chance to infiltrate the linings of your lungs.

The plot begins as the eccentric scientist Doc Pentz shows the world clean room quality dust collection is not only affordable, but can be entertaining when viewed through a transparent cyclone. The pressure (both static and dynamic) is on the competition to up their performance and bring down their prices.

The suspense builds, leaving us on the edge of our seats – can you fit that big yellow gorilla in your basement shop without cutting a hole into the kitchen floor above?

The attraction of the cyclones cleanliness pulls money from the wallets of the affluent as fast as it pulls wood chips from a thickness planer.
But wait, a small but growing faction of starving hobbyists woodworkers are still disenchanted by the cost of fresh air especially after investing their hard earned allowance on a bag and gag blower unit.

To ensure the starving horde of woodworkers do not get out of hand, the ever-present SWMBO gang dole out a meager allowance while funneling the family savings into their own private vacuum contraptions such as the Miele Red Velvet and Oreck DutchTech 5000.

What will happen to our hapless craftsman? Will he find his way out of the shop though his dust coated spectacles? Will he succumb to brown lung, purple heart, or medium density fibrosis before he reaches the age of retirement? Retirement, that day all hobbyists look forward to; when they can quite their day job and do woodworking full time.

Well, I have a crazy plan. I need you all to point out how pointless it is so I can crawl back into my dustbin and get back to real work.
Do you think it is possible to remove the motor/ blower unit from my 2hp Jet 1200 and install it on top of a Clear Vue cyclone? Note the eight-bolt hose collection plate on the attached Jet commercial photo. With the plate removed I have about a 12 inch inlet to set face down on top of the Clear Vue. Then, I could theoretically run the 6” blower hose into a filter. Or to save even more money, I could run the blower output hose through the wall and into Mr. Oreck-Miele’s back yard. He’s got a nice pool and pool filter that will take care of the rest.

I’m fairly certain the blower and motor bearings will run OK when turned 90 degrees. I saw something that looked like an old Jet laying sideways on a 40 gallon drum at a local borg once. It was connected to their plywood panel saw, and looked like it had been used that way for a while. Has anyone tried anything like my above mentioned mod? What were your results? What kind of pressure or CFM reading did you get? Is the fan/impeller type even compatible with a cyclone system?

If you have any advice, questions, or criticisms don’t hesitate to submit a reply. I look forward to your comments.

Thanks for listenin,
rick

[Rob Will]

Rick,
If the blower has sufficient CFM (measured at the pressure drop induced by the cyclone),why not give it a try? Does the cyclone have the vertical suction tube built in? Does the Jet fan have the correct rotation for the cyclone housing?

Just wondering...

Rob

[David Less]

Rick

Check out my photos on the Clearvue web sight under Louie's side mounted blower cyclone. I am in the process of doiing extensive work on a custom built unit using Ed's Clearvue. I will be updating as I go along. It is finally almost done. You my get some good ideas or better yet give me some. Love your post.

David

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

I've built my own cyclone, and I've read the good Doctor's web site as well.

I'd say if the "real" CFM is enough, sure, why not, but if it is not enough, don't bother, just sell it, and buy a blower/make a blower that will.

Trust me, underpowered is not worth the trouble.

Cheers!

[Matt Meiser]

I'm using the same blower on top of an Oneida C650 cyclone which runs just under $300 and am getting acceptable performance. At the time I put this combination together, Bill Pentz was recommending that blower, but since has started recommending a larger blower as he's improved the design of his cyclone. This year I started venting the blower output outside because once I got a drum sander I started getting more extremely fine dust into the filters and they were a PITA to clean. I don't think the C650 is nearly as efficient as newer designs at separation, but according to my somewhat limited understanding of the physics, the newer designs require more horsepower.

If I was starting from scratch today, I'd buy either the Grizzly or the Oneida Dust Gorilla. I don't really see myself upgrading anytime soon however since what I have is working well enough for me.

[Frank Hagan]

I think that Bill says without an airfoil impeller, or a shrouded impeller like Woodsucker uses, anything less than a 3 HP will not drive a large enough impeller for his design to get the desired 800 CFM at each machine.

[Jim Becker]

You don't have to install the blower on top of the cyclone...you can install it separate and just use duct work to get between the cyclone and said blower sitting near it. (Gentle curves, please) Many of the larger cyclone systems are build this way in commercial environments and may be the answer to some folks' shop headroom problems with all-in-one cyclones. This is assuming your blower has the power to work with the cyclone in question...and answer I'll leave to others. It's all about moving air...

[Matt Meiser]

In my install, the blower is a 90 degree long sweep awy from the cyclone.

[rick fulton]

Thanks for all your inputs!!

A bit more web searching has uncovered a few mentions that a Jet DC-1200 to Cyclone conversion is doable. A Google on this subject even uncovered info on the Bill Pentz web site that I had overlooked. The 2hp motor may be considered a minimum, but it appears the Jet fan design optimizes the CFM pretty well.

So, even if my idea of installing the Jet motor and fan on top of a Clear Vue does not pan out I will try setting the motor and fan housing near the cyclone exhaust and connect the two with a big pipe.

In addition, I have some pipe renovation that needs to be done on the input side. Right now I have dual 4” pipes running to some of my machines because I had already installed a 4” and found that to be too restricting. I’d like to change these out with 6” or larger plastic D&S pipe, but cannot find a source at the local borg. Where does one find large PVC type pipe of-the-shelf?

Thanks for the help!
rick

[rick fulton]

Matt -
Do you have any pictures of your install?
I am having trouble connecting to your web site. The following error message is displayed;

Server Error in '/' Application.
There is not enough space on the disk.
Description: An unhandled exception occurred during compilation using the CodeDomProvider 'Microsoft.VisualBasic.VBCodeProvider'. Please review the stack trace for more information about the error and where it originated in the code.
Exception Details: System.IO.IOException: There is not enough space on the disk.
Source Error:
An unhandled exception was generated . . . .

Thanks for the info!
rick

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

I don't know if this has come up or not, but if you are at the minimum for CFM, then you can go for a "Push Through" instead of the usual "Pull Through" set up.

This means the blower is BEFORE the actual cyclone, that way the blower does not have to overcome the size etc of the cyclone.

The one thing to remember is that with this design, the fan in the blower will take material hits. With the pull through type, the fan is isolated from any substantive material hits by the cyclone.

Cheers!

[Matt Meiser]

Matt -
Do you have any pictures of your install?
I am having trouble connecting to your web site.

My hosting provider is having problems.

Here's some pictures from a previous threads: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4645&d=1075689916

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=5826&d=1079575432

[Jim Becker]

Rick, look in your yellow pages under "irrigation" and "plumbing supply"...very few of the 'borg carry 6", but the big-boys usually do.

[Dave Harker]

Rick, as to where to find PVC, I looked in my Yellow Pages under "plumbing", actually:

"plumbing fixtures, parts & supplies, wholesale & mfrs"

and called one of the plumbing suppliers listed - they had no problem selling to me, a retail customer. Just go to the "city desk" as they call it here - the "tell them what you want and they go and get it" desk. They were quite patient with me, as I didn't know exactly what my choices were, so couldn't just say waht I wanted. I ended up with lots of 6" "Sewer and Drain" white PVC and the connections, elbows, etc.

http://webpages.charter.net/harkerhome/images/dustcollection/dcmsPVCHookup.JPG

[Ed Bamba]

My hosting provider is having problems.

Here's some pictures from a previous threads: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4645&d=1075689916

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=5826&d=1079575432

I apologize for this hijack, but Mats TS set up reminded me to ask about the Biese dust collection kit.

So Mat, how effective is the dust kit installed on your blade guard? I was thinking about installing one on mine, but only if it is worth the money. Biese has a new dust kit that replaces the entire hood ($48) and a seperate hose kit ($31).

Thanks, Ed

[Matt Meiser]

So Mat, how effective is the dust kit installed on your blade guard? I was thinking about installing one on mine, but only if it is worth the money. Biese has a new dust kit that replaces the entire hood ($48) and a seperate hose kit ($31).

It works very well as long as both sides of the blade are in the cut. Otherwise a lot of stuff shoots out the front too quick for the vacuum to get it. Because of the thin hose and having a 6" duct to the bottom of the saw, there isn't enough vacuum from the dust collection so I have a separate shop vac dedicated for the guard. I bought on of the $30 vacs and added a Cleanstream filter and wired it to come on when I start the saw. Works great.

[rick fulton]

Again, thanks for all your replies! Yellow pages, do they still print those? Don't get any pages with a cell phone. I'll look it up at work.

Concerning the Biesemeyer blade guard; I have had disappointing results with its dust collection, but have read elsewhere that connecting a shop vac to it will improve the airflow thru 2" hose. Thanks for the info Matt. It's just the push I need to make the change. You can catch a glimpse of my blade guard setup in this post;

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=24001

I installed the guard from a ceiling mounted frame. That removes any restrictions the post may have imposed if installed correctly. But, that also forces the shop vac hose to come down from the ceiling. The 'T's in the hose are used to make connections to the router fence when needed.

Thanks for lookin and sharin.
rick

[David Less]

Rick,

Here is to web sight to my side mounted blower cyclone project for any ideas. I will be adding semi completed photos this weekend.

David

http://gallery.clearvuecyclones.com/album06

[rick fulton]

David –

Your fan housing looks considerably more substantial than the $95 compressed oatmeal housing from Clear Vue. Your seal will surely keep the dust contained better than the standard housing.

Are you using corrugated hose for the ducting? I've found corrugated hose to be much noisier and resistive to air movement. But, that looks like one huge pipe.

On another note, it looks like you 'may' be using a Minimax bandsaw with Cool Block type guides. How do you like them? Where did you get them? What is the max blade width that you use with them?

Thanks for sharing.
rick

Oh, one more Q. Why is it called Louie’s blower?

[David Less]

Rick,

I am using 9" dia flex to connect the blower to the cyclone and 8" flex from the blower to a filter. When I first fired up the blower my heart went into my throat, I was hesitant about running it full bore, ie turned off before motor/blower came up to speed. The basement shook and my wife said no way are you going to run that beast because of the noise. I told her that it will be quieter once I mount the blower pipe into a canister filter and build my mega muffler.
I just completed my muffler and fired it up without a filter, man, what a differance. The noise came down considerably and will also be lower once I vent into a Whynn filter. To say the least I am very exited again. The cfm and suction at the other end is very impressive and exiting. I currently have a HF with Wynn filter. At first I was very hesitant about the 5 hp motor and 14" impeller for such a small shop, but after running with a muffler and feeling the amount of suction/cfm at the other end I would not recommend anything less. Bill Pentz and Ed (Clearvue) now their stuff.

I origionally bought the cool blocks from MM. To say the least, I designed and built my own, as you see in the pictures. I so far am running a 1/8" Timber Wolf blade with them. The compound the cool blocks are made out of seem to work good.

P.S. I will post updated pics of my cyclone this weekend. Hope this helps

David

[Bob Dodge]

Hi Rick,

Using your Jet DC-1200 blower will "work". Heck, they'll all "work", The question then becomes, "At what level will they work?"

A blower will move the most air, when the least resistance is present. Conversely, the more resistance you add, the less air the blower will move.

Bill's cyclone, is superbly designed and balanced, when it comes to low resistance, and swirl pattern. The swirl pattern keeps the waste particles tight to the wall of the cone, to the point of release near the waste chute, where the vortex "turns" to the up-take tube. A lighter-duty blower, may have a different swirl pattern and waste release point.

Resistance will probably not much of a concern with your blower, on THAT cyclone separator. Resistance would be quite low, since you're moving a lot less air than the 14" impeller/blower to begin with.

How effective will it be at preseparation? Well, that'll depend on the type of waste you produce, and how much airflow your drops allow.

What will be the benefit? Well, less waste will reach the filter. Only you can determine what type of waste density you produce. Different types of waste, will have different effects at the filter. Coarse/dry planer shavings, won't affect the filter in the same manner as light-dry sanding waste.

From a cost point of view, perhaps you should ask yourself, if it wouldn't be preferable to selll your existing dc entirely, and apply the sale price of the Jet, to a complete ClearVue cyclone. You most certainly will not find a better design than Bill's.

Bob

[J.R. Rutter]

I have an older Bies blade guard that had an aluminum plate with 1-1/2" or 2" port for DC connection. I made a new one and used a 3" adapter to 3" flex hose. My blast gate for the TS opens a 5-4-3 wye. The 3" leg for the blade guard, and the 4" for the saw base. You still get some escaped dust if you rip an edge off, but it works well.

For anyone who might know - does a push-through arrangement give you more volume capacity? I have a very heavy duty radial impellar on my blower, which was originally designed as a push through cyclone unit. I've been running as a pull-through so I could use it as a floor sweep, but if I could get better eprformance, I would change it over.

[Jim Becker]

JR, I can't comment on the performance aspect of push through vs pull though, but since you bring up the floor sweep, I'll state for the record (as some folks may not know) that a floor sweep really shouldn't be used in a situation where the material collected must pass through the blower. This can be dangerous should any metal be picked up...hitting the impeller blades, depending on what they are made of, can cause a spark and possibly be a fire hazzard. Floor sweeps should only be used when there is materal separation before the blower.

[Bob Dodge]

Hi J.R.,

If you're looking to draw a lil more air at the blade-cover, switch that 5" pipe you have going to the base, and go with a 4" pipe. This will really improve your draw at the blade cover. Here's why.

When you do a split in your drop, the sp in both branches of that wye, will automatically balnce themselves at the same static pressure. This is a fan law. That 3" pipe has a LOT more resistance than the 5" pipe, so the dc automatically draws much more air at that larger pipe. To bring that 5" pipe up to the same static pressure as the 3" takes some doing. That 5" pipe is almost 3 times as large as the 3" in area. 19.625sq.in. vs 7.065 sq.in.

Even if you switch to a 4" pipe to the base, you'll still draw a lot more air at the base, but that saw's drop will have a much better balance, and your blade-cover dust-collection will really improve.

If you want to give it a try, reduce that 5" to 4" right at the present 6x5x3 wye. Leave your 5" hood on the saw, but reduce between the hood and the wye.

Just to illustrate what happens, let's look at a 10ft length of 5" pipe, and a 6' length of 3" pipe, off that 6x5x3 wye. I presume that somewhat resembles your drop configuration.

If that drop were to pull a total of 800 cfm for example, the balance should be close to 600 cfm at the 5" pipe, and 200 cfm at the blade-cover.

Converting that 5" base pipe to 4", your balance should now be closer to 500 cfm at the base, (16.7% reduction) and 300cfm at the blade-cover.(50% increase)

With the dc you have, I'm sure those numbers would be more exagerated, I'm just using my numbers as an example, to show the effect. Those would be fairly accurate though, if that drop pulls 800 cfm. The actual total cfm for both scenarios, would be different though. The 6x5x3 will pull a higher total cfm than the 6x4x3, but I suspect your draw will be better balanced with the 6x4x3.

You could also play with various combinations of 5" and 4" pipe off that 5" wye. For example, your 10 foot length there, could be 5feet of 5", reducing to 5feet of 4", etc. Do a test-cut, and see if your blade-cover's collection improves.


Now, for your floor-sweep. If you have the space, arrange your drop so it connects to the top of a small pre-sep, or waste can lid. Now, add an elbow at the top of that lid, that curves down to the floor. Mount your floor-sweep hood there. The pre-sep, will act as a "trap". Any heavier items that will rise the short distance up the pipe, but fall downward into the waste-can with it's own weight and inertia. Only the light waste will flow then up the pipe.

As for "push-through design", you'll get a gain "IF" the cyclone's outlet is not too restrictivel. There's no need for 'transport velocity" beyond the cyclone body, so the up-take-pipe, and the outlet, should all be appropriately sized to reduce velocity and resistance.

Bob

[J.R. Rutter]

Thanks Bob.

Good idea on the floor sweep trap. I guess you could install a trap for use with a vacuum wand type attachment for sweeping as well. I much prefer to vacuum the floor as opposed to brooming it, but gravel always gets tracked in at some point.

I do have 4" to the base + 3" to the overarm guard both feeding a 5" blast gate, which connects to a 6" pipe within a couple of feet. If a thin edge ripping gets left behind, it disappears quite dramatically up the overarm guard - plenty of suction!

My cyclone is designed so that each opening gets progressively larger. I don't remember offhand, but it is something like 9" inlet, 10" uptake, 11" outlet. I have been trying to figure out the best way to do a bin for collection, and not having to seal it would be very nice. I'm thinking that a push-through blower with a custom American Filter Fabric cover for the bin that connects to the cyclone discharge would work (?)

[Jim Becker]

The one thing about the "trap" mentioned in Bob's post is that the technique will only reliably work for a small diameter drop. When you get to 5" and 6" drops, the CFM level will essentially by-pass most pre-separation outside of a cylone...which is the whole reason we have the cyclone to begin with!

[Bob Dodge]

JR,

OK. I think I understand that waste box a lil more clearly now. I presume you're dealing with a large waste volume here.

I'm going to show you a link to a particular commercial dc, and I want you to pay particular attention the the waste "trucks" on that dc. Specifically, pay attention to where the top of those "trucks" enter the dc housing. Two different dc's, two different views (front/side) Here are the links.

http://www.belfab.net/dw.html

http://www.belfab.net/jNBM-OP.html

Now, when those trucks are pushed under the dc's, there is an "edge/lip" around those trucks, and those have a friction-fit to a metal bracket under the dc. Those side brackets are "j" shaped and fit under the bottom of the lips of the truck. As you push the truck in, those brackets guide the truck ever closer to the dc's underside. By the time the truck is fully inserted, the top of the truck is touching the underside of the dc, for a nice air-tight fit. If I remember correctly, there is also a lever that you throw, to raise the truck slightly at the back-end. That "travel" is probably under 1". Works VERY well, and great if you have the height.

Bob

[J.R. Rutter]

Very slick!

I e-mailed them for pricing information. I could get an extra truck and use a trailer to take them to the local wood chip disposal place once or twice a week.

[Matt Meiser]

We have a waste cart at work that looks like those. I believe it is made by Rubbermaid. The cleaning staff uses it and they pull it out whenever its time for an office cleanup. It seems like you could use one of those and build something to fit it into if you are looking for a cheaper option. They are about $4-500 at Grainger, which would be far from the least expensive source.