Picked up a used Shaper - looking for advice on tooling, etc.

[Phillip Mitchell]

I won this machine on IRS auctions recently and it just arrived today. The price of the machine / power feeder was below what I see most older 3/4” spindle Taiwanese machines going for without a feeder. I am mostly new to shapers, having used one a little in someone else’s shop, but not with enough experience to know the in and outs or the cutterhead options.

I’ve been doing a lot of online research and reading about various cutterhead options, setups, etc. There is so much information out there and different techniques and approaches to using shapers and what they can do that it’s a bit overwhelming to know where to start.

My goals / intention for the machine is to try and get my feet wet in the shaper ocean with something that is simple and stout enough to not need to upgrade immediately and still relatively affordable that gives me a handful of options for different cutting operations to see if it’s something that I want to dive deeper into. At this point I have about $750 into the machine / feeder after freight, taxes, etc. I realize that tooling can add up to many multiples higher than the cost of the machine. I’m looking to start acquiring tooling that is quality made, but offers me the best value for the relatively low volume that I do compared to a larger shop.

The cost of a really good router table / lift put me off for a long time and I figured why not just go straight to the shaper and skip the $$ router table. I am a small scale, professional woodworker with a relatively new business (3 years in) that mostly does custom furniture, custom timber framing, interior custom woodwork, and other one-off custom stuff but I’m looking to expand my capabilities into offering more small scale custom millwork (matching historical profiles, etc) as well as use the shaper for furniture / cabinet scale joinery, cut grooves/rabbets, and have the option to do template work with a bearing.

About the machine - it’s an SCM T100 (late 70s/early 80s vintage), 1” spindle, 5 HP motor with 3 wheel, 4 speed, 1 HP feeder. Both 3 phase, 220v. I have a 10hp Kay Phasemaster rotary phase converter that I run my Tannewitz table saw and same vintage SCM 20” planer with that currently has a single 30 amp receptacle coming out of it. My plan has been to find a used MLO 3 phase panel with breakers already in it and have multiple circuits of various amperage coming off the RPC, but I haven’t found all the parts and pieces used yet...

Questions -

With the current 1” spindle should I just sleeve/bush out the spindle and begin to purchase 1 1/4” bore cutters / heads? If so, I’d appreciate hearing some details about the specifics of doing this, what I need and where the best place to buy from is.

The T100 apparently came with 3/4”, 1”, and 1 1/4” OEM spindle options. I have a WTB here and on OWWM for 1 1/4” spindle for this machine but no bites so far. Wondering if a more common 1 1/4” spindle from the newer T110 will fit or be a different spindle?

There doesn’t appear to be a nut for the top of the spindle anywhere with the machine. What are my options here?

What are the 2 items in the photos below that fit on the spindle? One of them is smaller diameter, is tapered on one side and looks like a spacer of sorts. The other is larger in diameter and spins like a large bearing, but has some angled grooves/slots on side (rub collar?)

Ive been reading a lot about Euroblock cutterheads, specifically attention to Brent’s posts and videos about the Whitehill Combi head and it looks interesting. Is this a good option for me and/or is there another similar option that is similar in performance and quality? Any opinions on where to start with a Euroblock head?

Are the handful of included knives practically useful to me and what cutterhead do they fit in?

I have yet to plug the machine or the feeder in and run anything. It was very well packed for LTL freight and arrived safely with no damage. I did notice in person (but not in the auction photos) that the casting for the vertical travel of the power feeder was damaged at one point and had a large chunk missing. There is a C clamp in that spot. Wondering if this will make it a pain to setup the feeder to different heights or not. Any tips on setting up the feeder to feed properly are appreciated; that’s new to me.

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[Phillip Mitchell]

Here’s some more photos.

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[Mel Fulks]

I think it all looks good. The pic showing ,apparently used shaper collars is the ONLY online one I have ever seen that
does not show lines and distortions from use by incompetant users. I have too many redundant shaper posts to write
any more. They are all good!

[Jared Sankovich]

Buy a 40x100 euroblock, a rebate head, and maybe a adjustable groover. That would cover a lot. If you plan on running any custom moulding get a corrugated head. Its just not worth getting custom 40mm knives, vs corrugated steel. Id get 1.25 bores and bush up with the expectation that you will have a 1.25" spindle (or a 2nd machine) eventually.

There should be a tabbed washer in addition to the spindle nut to allow reverse rotation. The nut should be a std metric pitch.

I didn't notice that broken part on the feeder in the listing photos... that is irritating.

[Bill Dufour]

Is that made in Italy or Tiawan? would a grizzly spindle fit? I have no idea if there a standard spindle angle or not. Sometimes I will put on one of those rub collars above the knives just to reduce airflow area through the fence.
Bil lD

[Kevin Jenness]

You may be able to source a 1 1/4" spindle from SCMI. That looks very like the spindle on the T110 I used to work with. Parts Pronto is the US parts source. They should be able to supply a spindle nut and washer.

The available speeds will determine what tool diameters you can safely run.

You will want to upgrade to 1 1/4" if you run large profiles, but the 1" should suffice for now. Definitely plan on using 1 1/4" tooling with bushings. A pair of t-bushings will get you started. Jared's basic tooling suggestions are good. Insert tooling is a good investment. Brazed carbide tooling is lower initial cost. Corrugated HSS knives are the way to go for custom mouldings. Amana tooling from Tools Today is a good basic source, but there are many. It's good that you realize the tooling costs will outstrip your initial investment.

It looks like you have a lock-edge knife collar set with a ball bearing guide, which is a versatile cutter for curved pattern work and relatively safe if set up properly with correctly matching knives. Talk to the Charles G.G.Schmidt Co. about it, I don't know if they still support that design. It is a safer version of smooth edge collars which were once widely used but are no longer considered safe.

You will have to experiment with the powerfeed to see if it is functional with the broken casting. If not you might be able to replace the part from the manufacturer, otherwise look for a new or used replacement feeder. You will definitely want to replace the old wheels with polyurethane ones such as Western Roller makes.

Set up the feeder so the cutter is centered between two of the wheels with enough clearance to avoid nicking them. Adjust the knuckles so the wheels are parallel to the table in both axes. The wheels should be about 1/8" below the stock and pointed inward with 1/8" to 1/4" taper toward the fence.

Check the spindle for runout with a dial indicator. Should read <.001" near the top of the unthreaded portion. Any more will lead to unwanted vibration, worse as the tooling gets larger/heavier. Check the wiring too, old cables can be brittle.

Good luck, and be careful. The shaper is a powerful tool. If you can get an experienced user to give you some in-person guidance that would be good. Double check your setups before running anything, making sure that the spindle height, fence settings and powerfeed adjustments are all locked.

Stephenson's "Spindle Moulder Handbook" is dated but still the best reference I have seen

[Warren Lake]

Italy.

What speeds does it have? your photos of the cutters and cutter head hard for me to tell. My view you should not be touching that stuff. We learned on that and even then I dont think we got enough good info. Mel said both knives have to come from the same bar stock. Total Logic statement that no one had ever said, all of us would just assume which is fine for a jointer but not for collars. Thats why I like guys here like Joe Mel and others that are sharing a lifetime of working in the trenches and sharing info that often you would not find.

There is a max RPM for those and more to know, I have serrated stuff (usually called lock edge which makes it sound more warm and fuzzier than it really is) and can see people tried to save on steel not knowing enough about the heads and forces on knives and how they change related to knife length in the head. There are three thicknesses for the bar stock. Ive run stuff I dont like yet had they cut the knives 1" or more longer it would be safer. Even then its dangerous stuff, ive been in shops twice when it was thrown. One an inexperienced kid that might have been a stoner and the other a real deal guy with his masters papers who had far too many barley sandwiches.

Years back talked to the owner of a company making those heads (diff manufacturer) and he refused to speak to me, I had to work to keep him on the phone long enough and he changed and by the time we were done it was all a very good conversation. I knew he was bitter from law suits. Years later one sharpening company refused to sharpen them for me that was from law suits, them blaming him. At first I thought your steel was slip edge but then saw one was serrated. I see rust and not enough to know what is really there other than looks like a Schmidt 3" ball bearing head maybe 1 1/4 spindle size.

Also just cause that came with the machine is not a guarantee that someone was using that on that machine. Ive seen that before with auction stuff something sitting or with a machine doesnt mean the last owner was using that. Many shapers sold do have cutter heads in the machine from what was last machined.

Looking at your photos again guess maybe the heads are 1" bore only as something is labelled as that not sure maybe the spacers are. All of the split collars I have come with different lengths of allen screws of a special head to assemble the heads off the machine then slide onto the shaft. cant see that all that steel has serrations maybe it is but photos dont show the whole knife on all of them. Get what Mel said the slot area is not rounded at the ends from having thrown knives in the past. There is usually a worm screw for those heads and they can wear as well. There is also left and right heads and knives should only project from the side that does not have the allen screw. I have enough that were not ground the right way and used sticking out the allen screw side. Im sure Mel and Joe have more time on that tooling and other past guys that are not here that often. My view and others will be get into new safe stuff. Shaper was by far the most dangerous machine in the old days and lots to most of that was due to the old tooling of different generations. Brent has a raised panel photo he sent me once and I havent tried that tooling but the cut quality looked great.

[Mel Fulks]

Corg is good ,relatively safe,but too big for some convoluted designs. Like stair volutes....ask the old Galoots! Shaper
collars are pretty safe when used by trained operators . Most terrible blood spills are done because someone in upper management said "I want it done today". Good shaper guy is on vacation ....so forman gives job to someone unskilled....
and expendable. If NASCAR operated like that ,the winner of the race would be the guy still alive. You need good info to
work safely .....but info is hard to get since giving it to to the guy who won't really listen to what you are saying is
dangerous to YOU!

[Mel Fulks]

I don't think Schmidt makes the stuff anymore. They never wanted to give info. Why would they? They already had enuf unfair blame. And with CNC , and lots of ugly modern design choices, there is not much need for for the stuff. There are
guys here who could make shaper collars in their garage or basement,but I doubt any want to.

[Warren Lake]

Hi Mel

Last time I looked they had them. Last night I was looking for something else and ended up in their catalogue so I went to coping discs, wish there was a you tube on them.

You mentioned corg and for sure safer. Im not convinced it cuts as clean, is there not a different cutting angle and yeah they had two angles a softwood and hardwood one. But is there not a different cutting angle on serrated cause of how they sit in the head. Jack pointed Shavings are neat from those heads.

Interesting thing on serrated it can pass right through the head from side to side, that must make the knife stronger. I found the bar stock in the catalogue, they sell high quality WHK or whatever the letters were said it was M2 steel.

[Jared Sankovich]

Hi Mel

Last time I looked they had them. Last night I was looking for something else and ended up in their catalogue so I went to coping discs, wish there was a you tube on them.

You mentioned corg and for sure safer. Im not convinced it cuts as clean, is there not a different cutting angle and yeah they had two angles a softwood and hardwood one. But is there not a different cutting angle on serrated cause of how they sit in the head. Jack pointed Shavings are neat from those heads.

Interesting thing on serrated it can pass right through the head from side to side, that must make the knife stronger. I found the bar stock in the catalogue, they sell high quality WHK or whatever the letters were said it was M2 steel.

Warren, there are a bunch of people on Instagram with schmidt cope heads, if you are looking first hand information.

Mike has a both the whitehill and schmidt cope heads.
https://instagram.com/mtlcarpentry?igshid=lgrsxopfrig2

Luke has the schmidt heads
https://www.instagram.com/tv/CIwMWhmDnjb/?igshid=1xavfu6s8l4g7

Both will usually happly talk shop, There are a bunch of others with the discs as well if you go looking.

[Mel Fulks]

Warren,there are two angles, in the catalogs! I've only seen the one described in catalogs as 'good for all" or some such.
My view is that using good steel that one is ...good for all. I had a set of 3 bearings made that divide up the corg into 3
parts. With that you get the cuts right where you want them .

[Phillip Mitchell]

Buy a 40x100 euroblock, a rebate head, and maybe a adjustable groover. That would cover a lot. If you plan on running any custom moulding get a corrugated head. Its just not worth getting custom 40mm knives, vs corrugated steel. Id get 1.25 bores and bush up with the expectation that you will have a 1.25" spindle (or a 2nd machine) eventually.

There should be a tabbed washer in addition to the spindle nut to allow reverse rotation. The nut should be a std metric pitch.

I didn't notice that broken part on the feeder in the listing photos... that is irritating.

Thanks Jared. Very helpful. Do you have any brand preferences when it comes to the tooling you recommended?

[Phillip Mitchell]

You may be able to source a 1 1/4" spindle from SCMI. That looks very like the spindle on the T110 I used to work with. Parts Pronto is the US parts source. They should be able to supply a spindle nut and washer.

The available speeds will determine what tool diameters you can safely run.

You will want to upgrade to 1 1/4" if you run large profiles, but the 1" should suffice for now. Definitely plan on using 1 1/4" tooling with bushings. A pair of t-bushings will get you started. Jared's basic tooling suggestions are good. Insert tooling is a good investment. Brazed carbide tooling is lower initial cost. Corrugated HSS knives are the way to go for custom mouldings. Amana tooling from Tools Today is a good basic source, but there are many. It's good that you realize the tooling costs will outstrip your initial investment.

It looks like you have a lock-edge knife collar set with a ball bearing guide, which is a versatile cutter for curved pattern work and relatively safe if set up properly with correctly matching knives. Talk to the Charles G.G.Schmidt Co. about it, I don't know if they still support that design. It is a safer version of smooth edge collars which were once widely used but are no longer considered safe.

You will have to experiment with the powerfeed to see if it is functional with the broken casting. If not you might be able to replace the part from the manufacturer, otherwise look for a new or used replacement feeder. You will definitely want to replace the old wheels with polyurethane ones such as Western Roller makes.

Set up the feeder so the cutter is centered between two of the wheels with enough clearance to avoid nicking them. Adjust the knuckles so the wheels are parallel to the table in both axes. The wheels should be about 1/8" below the stock and pointed inward with 1/8" to 1/4" taper toward the fence.

Check the spindle for runout with a dial indicator. Should read <.001" near the top of the unthreaded portion. Any more will lead to unwanted vibration, worse as the tooling gets larger/heavier. Check the wiring too, old cables can be brittle.

Good luck, and be careful. The shaper is a powerful tool. If you can get an experienced user to give you some in-person guidance that would be good. Double check your setups before running anything, making sure that the spindle height, fence settings and powerfeed adjustments are all locked.

Stephenson's "Spindle Moulder Handbook" is dated but still the best reference I have seen

Kevin, many thanks for the detailed reply! It has a 2 speed motor / switch that runs at 5k and 10k according to my research.

I have found some bushings from a kind member here that has some extras, so that’s a start. I will definitely keep my eyes peeled for an 1 1/4” spindle. I don’t know if I can stomach a new replacement spindle from SCM even if they had one...I wouldn’t be surprised if it cost $750-1000 for an OEM replacement.

I have seen the Spindle Moulder Handbook recommended many times and will seek out a used copy to help with the learning curve.

Thanks for the info on the feeder. Out of curiosity / ignorance, why do you recommend replacing the tires on the feeder?

Thanks again!

[Phillip Mitchell]

Mel and Warren,

Thank you guys for the discussions on safety, etc. It’s helping me and I’m sure will help other uninitiated in the future that stumble on this thread looking for answers.

Seems like the lock edge head with the bearing could be somewhat useful if everything was tip top and set up properly, but I don’t know enough at this point to trust myself setting it up correctly and will likely set it aside for later when I have more experience.

In my first post, the last couple photos show a smaller diameter piece of steel that fits over the spindle. Is this simply a spacer? Given the height of the spindle, would it do me well to have a handful of similar spacers to help get whatever cutter / head I’m using up closer to the threads on the spindle? What’s a good source for spacers of this bore?

Thanks again!

[Mel Fulks]

Yeah,spacers. Schmidt would certainly have them. And I guess lots of other places, easy to buy stuff that cant possibly
cause a guy to get hurt and start suing ! Never use more spacers UNDER the cutter head than needed for that specific
job.

[Warren Lake]

my view and im almost never Mr Safety its not right for most. Those heads run at 3,500 RPM based on what i was told by the other largest manufacturer. You have two speeds on your shaper, based on his statement then you have wrong and more wrong. Joe and Mel and more will chime in. You can ask Schmidt what they say. id be curious for sure. There are rules for projection, three times the thickness of the steel which ive seen often broken, corrugated 4 times the thickness. My combos are 3,500 and 7,000. I dont think that is a coincidence. The machine has speeds that suit the heads of the time and those heads were one of them.

Thanks for the coping guys info guys ill get to it later ive done enough you tube searches but even big Tennon heads searched that several times, other night trying to find the max size for the Griggio shaper and didnt find it.

[Jared Sankovich]

Thanks Jared. Very helpful. Do you have any brand preferences when it comes to the tooling you recommended?

I have had good luck with the amana insert tooling. I have a bunch of cmt insert tooling as well but its not as nice as the amana stuff. Titan makes reasonable quality corrugated heads.


Out of curiosity / ignorance, why do you recommend replacing the tires on the feeder?



They get hard / brittle, and loose all their grip.

[Warren Lake]

Jared thank you for the link for the coping heads, Instagram wont let me view as im not logged on, thats right im not, now let me see the photos:) Reminds me of Bush saying if you are not with us you are against us, really?

I got to see for a few seconds and one interesting shot of shelf support there. past shelf support with wood supports was done a few ways I asked the old guy once which one of them is the best. In that instagram that got covered quickly one of them was close the ones with the circles and piece going from front to back. How it was done where he learned was a bit different but close. First time ive ever seen anyone do that. Nice.

So do I have to join instagram to be able to look at what you sent? think so. More likely than Scientology though.

Kevin I repeated some of your stuff as I was typing and posted then later saw your post, your 1 1/4 statement, the bulk of all the tooling at auctions is 1 1/4" so its a good number to go with. I saw that and larger stuff at almost all of them. Phillip if you have time take some more photos of the tooling, I have stuff that I would never make the way it was made and it just told me even though from pros they didnt have all the info to know how to make safer knives.

the tires on the feeder are the cheap generic ones, have them on one, they dont look hard but you have to check them, most of the guys replace them with softer grippier stuff with a few choices

[Kevin Jenness]

Philip, the tires on your feeder look like the original issue, not very good to begin with and almost useless when old. New polyurethane wheels will save much frustration.

A set of spacers will save a lot of nut spinning time. Keep the cutters as low on the spindle as possible to reduce stress on the spindle.

With a 5k rpm low speed you can run some fairly large tooling. Most will have a maximum rpm stamped on the body. Stephenson's book has a useful table for max speeds for different types and diameters.

[Jared Sankovich]

With a 5k rpm low speed you can run some fairly large tooling. Most will have a maximum rpm stamped on the body. Stephenson's book has a useful table for max speeds for different types and diameters.

Run it off a vfd and between that and the 2 motor speeds you would have every speed you needed. I typically run between 5500 and 8000 more than anything else.

[Warren Lake]

on the split collars which shown here I have heads from two manufacturers. None of them have speed marked on the heads. All of them have direction and an arrow on them.

Dialing in a speed from a VFD would be nice. How much for a set up for a larger motor?

[Jared Sankovich]

on the split collars which shown here I have heads from two manufacturers. None of them have speed marked on the heads. All of them have direction and an arrow on them.

Dialing in a speed from a VFD would be nice. How much for a set up for a larger motor?

A vfd capable of running a 10hp 3ph motor (27amps) off single phase is about $650. 3ph to 3ph is about half that.

[Warren Lake]

thanks think he said its 5HP.

Someone mentioned wiring and thats a good statement. Its a known fact that SCM had some bad wiring. I had one of those then same machine with different wiring. The bad one I have no idea how it never shorted out, casing on the wire broken down and almost gone in a few places including where it passed through and close to the metal box with metal connectors and broken down. far from ideal.

[Jared Sankovich]

thanks think he said its 5HP.

Someone mentioned wiring and thats a good statement. Its a known fact that SCM had some bad wiring. I had one of those then same machine with different wiring. The bad one I have no idea how it never shorted out, casing on the wire broken down and almost gone in a few places including where it passed through and close to the metal box with metal connectors and broken down. far from ideal.

5hp off single phase is $250 for a decent vfd

[Mel Fulks]

I ran the 3 and 1/2 "( or aprox) diameter shaper collars as fast as 10,000 rpm with short projecting knives like beads and
small ogee mouldings. The guidlines found in print have little to do with practical safe work practices. It's all about
staying out of court . The collars from Schmidt that we had ,came with a piece of paper mainly saying that the stuff was
dangerous and ,I think, a statement saying they should not be used at a projection of some very short distance. I've
used the old smoothe type and the newer "lock edge stuff".

[Warren Lake]

Manufacturer owner said 3,500 ive done 4,400 several times on small projection.

3 times is the rule projection on serrated but its totally exceeded. In auctions many times I saw stuff hanging out way past and that was slip edge. That was in machines that were being used up to the auction not stored. More important is how long the knife is in the head. Ive never seen it stated and we were taught half way or more. Thats actually poor. The force on the knife to want to throw it goes down when the slot is more full. I have enough knives that are just over half way, fine but not great, considering the cost to make the knives longer id say people did wrong but also didnt know. Never talked to anyone that knew about filling the slot.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Run it off a vfd and between that and the 2 motor speeds you would have every speed you needed. I typically run between 5500 and 8000 more than anything else.

I have a 5 HP VFD from Jack that runs my 5 Hp Oliver 166 jointer. I bought it before I got the Kay RPC and haven’t messed with it as it works perfectly on the jointer, helps stop the cutterhead in about 7 seconds, and gives me the option to speed the Terminus cutterhead up a bit for certain woods, which is convenient. the jointer arrived in my possession without a starter switch so it was convenient to use the VFD as a starter. I could track down a switch for the Oliver and move the 5 HP VFD to the shaper, though I would lose my “brake” and variable speed control. I would imagine a small VFD would be handy for the variable speed on the feeder as well.

Is there any concern with running the shaper at variable speed / HZ via the VFD long term?

Also, I googled Parts Pronto and it took me to the main SCM site where it appears I have to sign in to their login portal. In order to do that, it appears I need to have purchased a (new?) machine from them? I now have 2 SCM machines but they are both very old and were obviously purchased used. Maybe I’m missing something?

[Phillip Mitchell]

I called SCM this morning and talked to a person in parts and made a little bit of headway on trying to find a spindle nut and washer. Apparently, records of a 1” spindle for the T100 don’t exist in their system. Only 3/4”, 30mm, and 1 1/4”. I asked him to cross reference a similar era T110 spindle and see if part numbers matched up and apparently the 1 1/4” spindle for both the T100 and T110 are the same part number...whether they are actually the same part / interchangeable is still unclear. They do not stock the 1 1/4” spindle itself - no availability, price, etc. However there is an option for 1” spindle / parts for the T110. Is that the same spindle I have on my T100? Not sure, but he sent me copies of both manuals via email that I will study later on today.

He did say that there was stock in Italy of the spindle nut and washer for the top of the 1” spindle for the T110 and that the washer was $230 and the nut was $1xx, I forgot the exact number....I knew any parts from them would be high, but that sounds a bit outrageous.

Ideally, I would find a used 1 1/4” spindle with all nuts/washers included and not have to pay nearly $400 for 2 small pieces of hardware for a less than ideally sized spindle that I plan to upgrade anyway. The hammer price at the auction for the machine was $400. Obviously l didn’t realize from the photos, lack of description that there wasn’t a nut and washer included with the spindle. Live and burn, I suppose.

Anybody have any other sources for hardware like this? Is there an SCM / Minimax owners group website or anything of the like where I might find other owners who may have extra parts laying around?

[Patrick Kane]

I’m in my phone and can never see photos posted on this site, but for almost $500, I might try to pursue a small local machine shop to make the nut and washer. My concern is the spindles aren’t interchangeable between the T110 and the T100, which would suck tremendously. Now, chances are SCM didn’t make numerous different 1” spindles for their machines, but still.

You have to wonder with some of these machines at auction. Why were the spindle nut and washer not on the machine? What kind of lunatic takes a cutterhead off and doesn’t replace the nut? I recently watch a martin T75 sell at auction for a very low price, but it was missing the rip fence. That is impossible to replace, and like your spindle nut, there’s no reason to take the fence off. It drops out of the way on the far side of the table.

[Kevin Jenness]

You could have a machinist make up the parts but may not save much. Try posting on Woodweb. At least you don't have a lot sunk into the machine (yet). Worst case it can serve as a base for a new workbench. Caveat emptor!

[Jared Sankovich]

I called SCM this morning and talked to a person in parts and made a little bit of headway on trying to find a spindle nut and washer. Apparently, records of a 1” spindle for the T100 don’t exist in their system. Only 3/4”, 30mm, and 1 1/4”. I asked him to cross reference a similar era T110 spindle and see if part numbers matched up and apparently the 1 1/4” spindle for both the T100 and T110 are the same part number...whether they are actually the same part / interchangeable is still unclear. They do not stock the 1 1/4” spindle itself - no availability, price, etc. However there is an option for 1” spindle / parts for the T110. Is that the same spindle I have on my T100? Not sure, but he sent me copies of both manuals via email that I will study later on today.

He did say that there was stock in Italy of the spindle nut and washer for the top of the 1” spindle for the T110 and that the washer was $230 and the nut was $1xx, I forgot the exact number....I knew any parts from them would be high, but that sounds a bit outrageous.

Ideally, I would find a used 1 1/4” spindle with all nuts/washers included and not have to pay nearly $400 for 2 small pieces of hardware for a less than ideally sized spindle that I plan to upgrade anyway. The hammer price at the auction for the machine was $400. Obviously l didn’t realize from the photos, lack of description that there wasn’t a nut and washer included with the spindle. Live and burn, I suppose.

Anybody have any other sources for hardware like this? Is there an SCM / Minimax owners group website or anything of the like where I might find other owners who may have extra parts laying around?

Measure the od of the spindle threads and the pitch (or distance crest to crest)

Let me know what the measurement it is. Its a $20 part not a $400.. I'll be shocked if its not available elsewhere. It is isnt ill offer to machine one for the cost shipping.

[Mike Kees]

Phillip I bought a nut off of Mc-master -Carr for my Invicta shaper. I have a thread size gauge and used it to figure out size. The nut is the right size but the threads on my spindle are cut deeper so now I am going to look for a tap to clean out the threads in the nut. All in this should be $50 or less.

[Warren Lake]

Ive ordered nuts from SCM for one machine and got a few extras. Different than a nut for these machines more like a giant screw that goes into the spindle. Likely about 65.00 each going by memory. Took a while to get them as well.

Id check with machinery dealers some of the auction guys at least one also had tons of parts of all kinds and sometimes scrap machines for parts. One of them up here had parts but is retired now and lost touch last heard he was moving.

I could tell you auction stories for hours. seen some bad stuff over the years.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Measure the od of the spindle threads and the pitch (or distance crest to crest)

Let me know what the measurement it is. Its a $20 part not a $400.. I'll be shocked if its not available elsewhere. It is isnt ill offer to machine one for the cost shipping.

Wow, thanks Jared! I will get back to you on this.

I was reading a thread somewhere the other day...practical machinist maybe? where someone was hired to make a new spindle nut for an older SCM shaper - I think it was a T120 - and the consensus was the the spindle / nut threading didn’t match any thread gauges he had and was apparently something proprietary to SCM, but there never was a resolution in the thread. I’m pretty inexperienced when it comes to metal working, so take this with a grain of salt.

[Mike Kees]

Reducing bushings are in the mail.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Reducing bushings are in the mail.

Thanks Mike!

Here’s another newbie question to the group - how do I remove the spindle if I don’t have the proper spindle wrench? It may come to me sending the existing 1” spindle off to a machinist in order to get a new 1 1/4” spindle fabricated.

I don’t really have metal machining skills or tools; I have seen where folks have made their own wrenches when the OEM spindle wrench was MIA. Regardless, I will need to remove the 1” spindle at some point to replace it with a 1 1/4”.

[Kevin Jenness]

The oem wrenches are a piece of pipe with teeth cut on the end to match the spindle collar and holes at the top for a tommy bar. Shouldn't be too hard to have one made.

This thread illustrates the perils of buying through an internet auction. The shaper may be a workhorse and a relative bargain once all the issues are sorted, but the missing and broken parts will take time, money and aggravation to source, and would have been identified with in-person inspection. Pay now or pay later. I would buy sight unseen from someone I knew and trusted, otherwise only something I can lay my hands on.

Let us know how you make out on having a spindle fabricated. I suspect it will be expensive. I would use the machine as is and look for a good unit with a 1 1/4" spindle. The 1" will serve you well enough for starters and you may wind up with more than one shaper anyway, or trade up from this one.

[Mike Kees]

Phillip I agree with Kevin, I think that I would just use the machine with the one inch spindle. A few more T bushings for a stacked cutter set up would still be way cheaper than getting a spindle made. Power that thing up and use it for a while before committing to anything else.(Upgrades to this spindle, etc.) That is still a well built machine with a heavy spindle cartridge and sizable bearings supporting that spindle. As far as buying sight unseen and the extra work/hassle of getting everything figured out. I always look at how much money a new unit would have cost compared to where I ended up ,yes sometimes the hidden costs add up but I have always so far ended up way cheaper than new.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Thanks for the advice, guys. I certainly knew the risks with buying sight unseen machines via online auctions and have a contingency plan / fund that suits. It’s like you said, Kevin - you always pay for it somehow and eventually in time, money, sweat and/or a combination of them when acquiring new to you machines. It’s easier for me to budget those costs spread out over a bit more time by buying an older machine that likely needs some TLC or has some missing pieces to track down. It’s a slow approach, but luckily I’m not in a position where I need the machine functional right now and can slowly ease it into the workflow. I can see upgrading to a larger 1 1/4” machine in time, so thanks for the reality check of not sinking too much into this one. I still need to wire a plug and turn it on to make sure it sounds ok and it doesn’t need bearings, etc.

[David Sochar]

I see a set of smooth edge split collars that will hod 'shaper steel' knives. You show a pair of bead making knives. The collar with the bearing is placed first, then the two knives, then the top collar, then spacers and then spindle nut. Do not exceed 5,000 rpm and have a nice chink of 8/4 between you and the knives on start up. I was told that they throw knives on start up and shut down.

I also see a lock edge knife with the deep machined edges. These will work in your collars, but a lock edge collar is much safer. Look at the Charles G G Schmidt catalog - they still sell this type of tooling. I bought a shaper like your, but got the tooling with it. Combined with the knives I got from the shop I apprenticed at, I have about 4,000 patterns I can run.

Replace that casting. A good feeder, well mounted is a wonderful thing. You do not want to fiddle with a clamp for every time you set the thing.

Consider replacing the spindle with 1-1/4". It is the shop standard, and while bushing will work, there is nothing better than the bigger spindle. My SCM has a 1" and 1-1/4", and I have never used the 1" spindle - in 30 years.

As a big fan of the IRS auction site, I think at times I can spot hints at why the company is no longer. Just clip that there, take the wire over here, and wrap this, then kick the motor, and hit the spindle - and you are ready to run. While the other guy reaches down and flips the switch, and is running.

[Mel Fulks]

I've always used the smooth ( non edge-lock) ball bearing collars either side up. Never seen any advice against that.
The lock- edge type is prohibited for up and down use. But sometimes if you have a two direction shaper you can just turn
them upside down. But you MUST use two spindle nuts.

[Warren Lake]

not looking but I probably posted some info on those heads speed based on talking to the other manufacturer. Mel why do you think the up and down thing being prohibited. The knives are not supposed to come out the side with the allen screw and maybe that is why. Even so that would still be safer than the slip edge or smooth.

Ive run it with the knives extending out the the allen screw a number of times as that was how it came with some of the knives ive used or just tweaked them to what I need. Manufacturer stated maximum RPM is 3,500. Know you have run higher than that. The biggest thing is how far the knives are in the head as it changes the force on the knife.

On buying machines what has worked best for me is old guys who bought stuff new, used it all their lives then either they want you to buy their stuff or they pass and years later their wives call and ask you to buy the machines. You get a non abused machine that was owned by real guys and not cannibals. If I take the combos they probably each came with 20 pieces that the machine came with, often missing in many auction machines. Using the machines is always special considering as they came from people you respected. Do have enough auction stuff as well.

[Mel Fulks]

Yes ,it's because the end with the screw is just a lot weaker. I've used that end only on short projections, like a bead.
3500 RPMS....soon they will want you to wrap a string around the collars and pull the cord !!

[Warren Lake]

I have those strings on my Mitts. Helps a lot and I never have to look for them anymore. I plan on ordering a full suit of armour off ebay. Maybe carbon fibre these days.

ive done exactly as you said, I have to wonder though the cutters that came with my heads they are not the best lengths and many are some or more are ground they had to come out that way. There is still a pin that locks the worm screw.

Reading i had done in the past downplayed the locking aspect and said the worm was as much about adjustment as keeping the knife in then it could not come out the solid side. Time to ask the manufacturers some questions if they will respond.

What as your understanding of the knife in the head. I was told half way or bit more then the manufacturer said fill the slot and the forces change in your favour.

[brent stanley]

Hi Phillip, sorry for the delay, building a new shop and the days are full!

You've got a nice well respected mid sized machine there and the power feeder is great. I'll echo other suggestions to aim for 30mm or 1.25" tooling as you may upgrade one day. The combis are a great, economical option that do not sacrifice quality. The large one is the most capable of course, but the smaller uses knives you can get a couple of days faster through the mail than the ones for the larger combi. The chip limiting design of course is safer too.

A euroblock and a rebate block (or a combi) and 4-15mm adjustable groover will get you far and you can add a panel raiser later on if you need it. If you flush mount the combi (with a new spindle) you can tenon of course like I am doing here: https://www.instagram.com/p/CCchzvEj58T/?igshid=48egta2s9l34
which is better than large tenon discs for smaller machines.

Check your runout, tram the spindle and get that Spindle Moulder Handbook....it'll really open your mind! Congrats on your deal!

B



I won this machine on IRS auctions recently and it just arrived today. The price of the machine / power feeder was below what I see most older 3/4” spindle Taiwanese machines going for without a feeder. I am mostly new to shapers, having used one a little in someone else’s shop, but not with enough experience to know the in and outs or the cutterhead options.

I’ve been doing a lot of online research and reading about various cutterhead options, setups, etc. There is so much information out there and different techniques and approaches to using shapers and what they can do that it’s a bit overwhelming to know where to start.

My goals / intention for the machine is to try and get my feet wet in the shaper ocean with something that is simple and stout enough to not need to upgrade immediately and still relatively affordable that gives me a handful of options for different cutting operations to see if it’s something that I want to dive deeper into. At this point I have about $750 into the machine / feeder after freight, taxes, etc. I realize that tooling can add up to many multiples higher than the cost of the machine. I’m looking to start acquiring tooling that is quality made, but offers me the best value for the relatively low volume that I do compared to a larger shop.

The cost of a really good router table / lift put me off for a long time and I figured why not just go straight to the shaper and skip the $$ router table. I am a small scale, professional woodworker with a relatively new business (3 years in) that mostly does custom furniture, custom timber framing, interior custom woodwork, and other one-off custom stuff but I’m looking to expand my capabilities into offering more small scale custom millwork (matching historical profiles, etc) as well as use the shaper for furniture / cabinet scale joinery, cut grooves/rabbets, and have the option to do template work with a bearing.

About the machine - it’s an SCM T100 (late 70s/early 80s vintage), 1” spindle, 5 HP motor with 3 wheel, 4 speed, 1 HP feeder. Both 3 phase, 220v. I have a 10hp Kay Phasemaster rotary phase converter that I run my Tannewitz table saw and same vintage SCM 20” planer with that currently has a single 30 amp receptacle coming out of it. My plan has been to find a used MLO 3 phase panel with breakers already in it and have multiple circuits of various amperage coming off the RPC, but I haven’t found all the parts and pieces used yet...

Questions -

With the current 1” spindle should I just sleeve/bush out the spindle and begin to purchase 1 1/4” bore cutters / heads? If so, I’d appreciate hearing some details about the specifics of doing this, what I need and where the best place to buy from is.

The T100 apparently came with 3/4”, 1”, and 1 1/4” OEM spindle options. I have a WTB here and on OWWM for 1 1/4” spindle for this machine but no bites so far. Wondering if a more common 1 1/4” spindle from the newer T110 will fit or be a different spindle?

There doesn’t appear to be a nut for the top of the spindle anywhere with the machine. What are my options here?

What are the 2 items in the photos below that fit on the spindle? One of them is smaller diameter, is tapered on one side and looks like a spacer of sorts. The other is larger in diameter and spins like a large bearing, but has some angled grooves/slots on side (rub collar?)

Ive been reading a lot about Euroblock cutterheads, specifically attention to Brent’s posts and videos about the Whitehill Combi head and it looks interesting. Is this a good option for me and/or is there another similar option that is similar in performance and quality? Any opinions on where to start with a Euroblock head?

Are the handful of included knives practically useful to me and what cutterhead do they fit in?

I have yet to plug the machine or the feeder in and run anything. It was very well packed for LTL freight and arrived safely with no damage. I did notice in person (but not in the auction photos) that the casting for the vertical travel of the power feeder was damaged at one point and had a large chunk missing. There is a C clamp in that spot. Wondering if this will make it a pain to setup the feeder to different heights or not. Any tips on setting up the feeder to feed properly are appreciated; that’s new to me.

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[Kevin Jenness]

Philip, one thing you might do is try to find a shop with a T110 in your area and compare your spindle to theirs, assuming you can get it out. That would at least give you some options on parts. The 110 is a fairly common model, and you might be able to get a lead from an SCMI dealer. Have you tried posting on Woodweb?

I hope I didn't come off as overly negative. If the guts of the machine are good and you can find the parts you need it will work out. I have been in your shoes before and have spent a fair bit of time fluffing up machines that I wound up replacing in the end. Best of luck.

[Patrick Kane]

Not sure if the OP solved this, but his machine is for sale on woodweb and the guy has a 1-1/4" spindle. Maybe worth seeing if you can purchase the spindle, or asking him to have the nut measures to copy it.

SCM Invincible Shaper with 1" and 1 1/4" spindles : WOODWEB's Machinery Exchange (https://www.woodweb.com/exchanges/machinery/posts/528972.html)

[Phillip Mitchell]

Not sure if the OP solved this, but his machine is for sale on woodweb and the guy has a 1-1/4" spindle. Maybe worth seeing if you can purchase the spindle, or asking him to have the nut measures to copy it.

SCM Invincible Shaper with 1" and 1 1/4" spindles : WOODWEB's Machinery Exchange (https://www.woodweb.com/exchanges/machinery/posts/528972.html)

Thanks for the heads up Patrick. I didn’t see that initially; I talked to the seller and he’s reluctant to sell just the spindle at this point. I would be too if I was selling, but you never know how things play out.

[Jared Sankovich]

Thanks for the heads up Patrick. I didn’t see that initially; I talked to the seller and he’s reluctant to sell just the spindle at this point. I would be too if I was selling, but you never know how things play out.

I'd be curious to see if they are similar to the larger machines with the mt5 taper.

[Phillip Mitchell]

I'd be curious to see if they are similar to the larger machines with the mt5 taper.

When I find some free time, I’m going to make a simple spindle wrench and attempt to remove this 1” spindle. I’ll report back on the taper. I’ve talked to a few different used equipment resellers inquiring about spindles that seem to think it may be a mt3, but no way to know for sure until I get it out.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Mild update: I installed a plug this afternoon (came with a clipped cord) and fired it up. Both speeds work well and I don't hear the bearings making noise, which seems like a positive. Spins up fast and winds down slow and smooth.

I also set up the dial indicator and checked the spindle for runout. It's a cheap indicator, but it was barely moving the needle (.0005") so another good omen.

I have some dial calipers and a thread pitch gauge on the way to check dimensions on the existing 1" spindle in hopes to try and track down a suitable spindle nut replacement (McMaster Carr hopefully?)

Question - the OEM nut is mostly round with 2 flats on it. Will I be able to find an appropriately sized nut made like that or will a hex nut of the proper size and threads be fine?

What else do I need to properly mount and run a cutterhead on this spindle? The actual threads for the spindle nut are roughly 1 5/8” tall worth of thread. There is also a threaded section that goes down into the very top middle of the spindle; I didn't measure that yet, but it looks like it accepts some sort of cap screw? Do I need any sort of washer between the bottom of the spindle nut and any spacers that I have stacked up. Remember that I'm pretty much new to shapers, so apologies - I know these are terribly fundamental questions. I have The Spindle Moulder Handbook - Stephenson on order. Hopefully it will arrive soon - the mail is so unpredictable these days.

I talked to SCM - USA and Canada on the phone a few times and did manage to obtain a digital copy of the spare parts manual for this machine. It does not even list a 1" spindle as an option for this machine. There are several pages of different types of spindles and I can't quite tell if the one I have is represented in the manual or not. I have been diligently searching for a used 1 1/4" spindle for this machine, so far in vain. I would like to at least get the current spindle sorted out enough to put it to use.

I appreciate the advice!

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[brent stanley]

You'll need a stack of spacers of varying height so you can clamp down blocks of different height, no washer is typically used. Consider getting two nuts so you can jam them for added security when reversing. Can you show a picture of the threaded section you mentioned? What's the diameter?

B

[Kevin Jenness]

That's good news on the startup. If you can find a stock nut to fit the spindle threads a hex nut will be fine, just get a proper fitting wrench for it.

If you can't find one and can't get one made for a reasonable cost, you might try using an unthreaded counterbored cap on the spindle using the existing thread in the top of the spindle. That's how the Felder spindles I have seen are secured. Your hole looks rather small, but you could enlarge and retap it. I have a similar setup on my Northwood shaper and it works fine, You just have to use the appropriate combination of spacers to stay within the counterbore height. I am guessing a cap could be made for less than a custom nut, but I could be wrong. It should have flats for a wrench.

In any case, once you have a way to tighten down on the cutters you need a set of 1" spacers and a pair of 1" to 1 1/4" t-bushings. A washer under the nut is a good idea to prevent wear on the machined spacer ends, and it should be keyed to the spindle if running in reverse. You may need some sleeve bushings for multi-piece cutter sets the t-bushings won't accommodate. A set of graduated plastic shims is useful for adjusting cope and stick sets. The shims and bushings should be available from Tools Today or Charles G. G .Schmidt.

[Warren Lake]

anyone aware of torque specs for spindle nuts depending on shaft sizes. Not as relevant for solid body cutters but for the split collars like with this shaper it becomes more so, want a range but not over tighten as more or maybe too much pressure on the knives in the collars.

I asked SCM and one other in the past but no numbers.

[Mike Kees]

Did the T bushings I sent make it there yet ? I purchased new spacer bushings from Tools today to complete the set needed for my last shaper.

[Phillip Mitchell]

That's good news on the startup. If you can find a stock nut to fit the spindle threads a hex nut will be fine, just get a proper fitting wrench for it.

If you can't find one and can't get one made for a reasonable cost, you might try using an unthreaded counterbored cap on the spindle using the existing thread in the top of the spindle. That's how the Felder spindles I have seen are secured. Your hole looks rather small, but you could enlarge and retap it. I have a similar setup on my Northwood shaper and it works fine, You just have to use the appropriate combination of spacers to stay within the counterbore height. I am guessing a cap could be made for less than a custom nut, but I could be wrong. It should have flats for a wrench.

In any case, once you have a way to tighten down on the cutters you need a set of 1" spacers and a pair of 1" to 1 1/4" t-bushings. A washer under the nut is a good idea to prevent wear on the machined spacer ends, and it should be keyed to the spindle if running in reverse. You may need some sleeve bushings for multi-piece cutter sets the t-bushings won't accommodate. A set of graduated plastic shims is useful for adjusting cope and stick sets. The shims and bushings should be available from Tools Today or Charles G. G .Schmidt.

Kevin, Thanks for the detailed reply. I will report back with my findings once I get the dial indicator and thread pitch gauge and measure the spindle. It doesn’t look like there is a slot in the spindle for the tab of a washer to fit into. I don’t think this machine has a reverse option, for what it’s worth.

I actually have a set of plastic shims from C G.G. Schmidt that showed up with the lock edge cutters. Fellow forum member Mike Kees has kindly mailed me a few extra T bushings that he didn’t need with his current shaper setups. I just need to order some spacers and figure out the spindle nut / washer situation.

Looking at some old lock edge collar Schmidt tooling online it became immediately apparent that the 3” diameter lock edge collar cutterhead that showed up with the machine is only half of the cutterhead setup. I only have the bottom (or top?) - smooth edge side of the cutterhead and not the side that the lock edge engages into. I’m way less confused about how it works now that I’ve seen the actual setup. I think it was in the Oella Saw website that has a lot of older lock edge collar cutterheads listed for sale. I wasn’t really planning on using it any time soon, but I now know what it’s supposed to look like.

Thanks again for all the details.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Did the T bushings I sent make it there yet ? I purchased new spacer bushings from Tools today to complete the set needed for my last shaper.

Haven’t seen anything yet, Mike. The mail has been extremely unreliable / delayed here for months; I’ve assumed that this has been the case everywhere due to the pandemic.

[Warren Lake]

Oella Last time I checked and emailed them about it they had a lot of lock edge photos appearing to be for sale then most of them were not even there. Why run your ads that way? Never looked since.

[Joe Jensen]

I have purchased a lot of used cutters on ebay. Odella Saw sells sharpened ones. Over the course of a couple years I now have 1/8" - 3/4" cove and roundover. I bought those so I have them on hand when I need them. I also purchased expensive insert tooling for the cabinet door cutters and panel raisers, and groovers. I have to say the larger diameter insert cutters leave a better finish than the smaller diameter cutters I used to buy. My advice, don't buy expensive cutters until you know you will need them.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Thanks Joe for the reply. My short list of cutterheads is a rebate block and adjustable groover at this point, based on what I expect to use the machine for.

Not much to update at this point: I ordered a dial caliper and thread pitch gauge about 3 weeks ago and have yet to receive them...the mail is a complete mess right now and everything seems either lost or massively delayed. My intent with getting these measuring tools is to precisely measure the existing spindle and threads and try and source a suitable spindle nut replacement. No luck in finding an OEM replacement in this 1” size as SCM doesn’t recognize 1” as stock spindle size for the T100.

I did receive my copy of the Spindle Moulder Handbook a few days ago and have thumbed through it and read parts of it so far. Seems like a great resource.

After seeing that the spindle wrench was available from SCM at a cost of $185, I fabricated my own out of some pipe hardware I got at the hardware store for about $12 in parts and an hour or so with an angle grinder and some drills bits. The disappointing news is that I’m unable to break the spindle loose. So far I’ve worked up to a 40” cheater bar (3/4” black pipe) slipped over my smaller 1/2” diameter bar. I’m about 90% sure I’m going the right way based on the way the spindle spins, spindle nut locks and what I’ve read online from others’ experience. Really only trying to remove it at this point to measure it with the dial calipers when they arrive so I can know what the taper is and possibly have more options for replacement with 1 1/4” when/if one shows up. It’s not even budging and is just bending my 1/2” rod. Is this a place for penetrating oil or should I just leave it alone?

Last question - for a cutterhead like a Euroblock that is 2” or so tall, can I use T bushings (one above and one below) with the empty space /no contact in the middle of the inside of the cutterhead bore or is it advisable to use the taller, sleeved style T bushings that provide more contact in the middle of the bore? Going to order some spacers from CCG Schmidt or Tools Today and wondering if I should get some of the taller, sleeved T bushings?

Thanks as always for the insight and advice!

[Kevin Jenness]

Definitely try penetrating oil. I have used PB Blaster, some swear by KRoil and some like acetone mixed with automatic transmission fluid. Give it some time, then try it. Some judiciously applied heat may help break it loose. Loose is ccw seen from above.

The t-bushings will be fine with the Euro block imo.

[brent stanley]

Hi Phillip, lots of folks will just use those T bushings top and bottom with smaller blocks, but I always add sleeves to the taller blocks. The unfortunate thing is it's generally frowned on to use bushings and adaptors with adjustable groovers and similar.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Thanks for the comments. Yes, I am turning the spindle collar counter clockwise viewed from above. No luck breaking it free yet.

Out of curiosity, why no bushings with adjustable groovers?

Ok, next dumb metal question - I measured the thread pitch of the spindle with the gauge that finally arrived. It’s 14 TPI; metric was close to 1.75, but not exact and 14 TPI was exact. I actually picked up a 1” 14 TPI grade 8 nut from the local hardware store when I was in there for something else a few weeks ago and noticed that it threaded on the spindle like it was the proper thread pitch, but it’s a bit loose once it’s on. Meaning that there is a small amount of play back and forth / side to side. I looked on McMaster Carr earlier this evening and have found several 1” 14 tpi nuts to choose from, but is there a chance that there’s a different thread standard (or some other variation?) between the hardware store grade 8 nut and the shaper spindle, even though it’s also 1” and 14 tpi? This seems like it should be simpler than it is, but for some reason I can’t get it properly sorted out yet....makes me think the current spindle was bastardized and isn’t OEM. What am I missing? One of these days the dial calipers I ordered will show up and I’ll have a more accurate way to measure these metal parts and pieces.

[Mel Fulks]

I wouldn't worry about it. The spindle nuts are usually pretty loose. It's possible that is intentional , as that would make
it tighten itself. But of course that bit of cleverness would not do much good with the smooth top and bottom type knife edges...
Might just give auto Bon Boyage to the knives as they take "the next flight out". When using the smooth at top and
bottom knives, tighten the nut with your fingers...NOT the wrench. Then try to move the two knives...with your fingers.
If you can not move the knives with your fingers, then tighten the nut with the wrench. Remember the steel knife bars
are sold in nominal sizes. There is no attempt to make all bars of a size work together. Any mixing of two bars to make
a "happy couple" must start with neither side trying to fly out of the marraige .

[Jared Sankovich]

Thanks for the comments. Yes, I am turning the spindle collar counter clockwise viewed from above. No luck breaking it free yet.

Out of curiosity, why no bushings with adjustable groovers?

Ok, next dumb metal question - I measured the thread pitch of the spindle with the gauge that finally arrived. It’s 14 TPI; metric was close to 1.75, but not exact and 14 TPI was exact. I actually picked up a 1” 14 TPI grade 8 nut from the local hardware store when I was in there for something else a few weeks ago and noticed that it threaded on the spindle like it was the proper thread pitch, but it’s a bit loose once it’s on. Meaning that there is a small amount of play back and forth / side to side. I looked on McMaster Carr earlier this evening and have found several 1” 14 tpi nuts to choose from, but is there a chance that there’s a different thread standard (or some other variation?) between the hardware store grade 8 nut and the shaper spindle, even though it’s also 1” and 14 tpi? This seems like it should be simpler than it is, but for some reason I can’t get it properly sorted out yet....makes me think the current spindle was bastardized and isn’t OEM. What am I missing? One of these days the dial calipers I ordered will show up and I’ll have a more accurate way to measure these metal parts and pieces.

There are 3 classes of thread fitment. A closser tolerance nut in 1-14 threads should be readily available. Though in this application I'm not sure if it matters.

https://www.accuratescrew.com/classes-of-thread/

[Joe Calhoon]

Out of curiosity, why no bushings with adjustable groomers?

Phillip, it’s possible to use bushings with adjustable groovers, it’s just not ideal and prone to spinning a cutter if not right.
If you have to do this get a assortment of different length top hat bushings and spacers that fit the top hat bushings. For example if using a 1.25 groover on a 1” shaft have a couple lengths of bushings and assortment of 1.25 spacers (say 1mm to 5mm or so) you can use to shim on top of the cutter to adjust depth of bushing.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Just an update: some things are finally coming together it seems.

I trammed the spindle with my dial indicator and mag base. There’s a .002” dip/wear in the table right in front of the spindle area. Viewing above, if the infeed side is 6 o’clock and the outfeed side is 12 o’clock then the low spot is the area right around 9 o’clock. This is measured about 6-8” out from the spindle as that’s where my indicator on the mag base was ending up. The 6 and 12 o’clock readings were identical to the 0.0005” on my gauge.

I received 3 new poly wheels on new hubs from Western Roller yesterday. Seem like excellent folks to deal with, fair prices and fast service.

I received a couple pairs of T bushings from a fellow forum member (Thanks Mike!) Seems like they got lost in the mail for about 3 weeks, but finally arrived.

I also placed an order from Tools Today with an assortment of 1” spacers, a few more T bushings/sleeves, and a 50x125 shear cutting steel rabbeting block from Amana. Still need to sort out a way to cut grooves for a few upcoming cabinet door groove sized projects. Any recommendations?

Also placed an order with McMaster Carr yesterday afternoon at 4:15 pm for a couple of different small packs of 1”x14tpi nuts to try and hone in on the fit of the spindle nut. It showed up this morning at around 11 AM via FedEx and I live in the sticks! That is just amazing. I’ve been waiting on a different package via USPS for over 3 weeks now. Love McMaster Carr. I have the app on my phone and it’s amazing how convenient ordering from them is.

Last thing I need to do is put a plug on the power feeder and wire in another receptacle into the output of my RPC to plug it in to. Or buy a small VFD, but I don’t know if I want to bleed quite that much money at the moment.

Still no luck on breaking the existing spindle free, but I’m just going to leave it alone for a little while and use the machine with bushings for a little while to get a feel for it. Almost there...just to update and give an idea to anyone else out there who may come across this thread in the future searching for some of the same answers I was...here is a breakdown of actual costs of this auction machine so far. It’s easy for folks (myself included) to watch stuff at auction and think it’s a steal of a deal, but that’s never what the actual costs are.

-Shaper/feeder auction (with taxes, premiums, etc) - $510
-freight (from MA to NC) - $300
-electrical (plugs, etc) - $50
-misc hardware, nuts, etc - $40
-new rollers for power feeder - $150
-spacers, bushings, etc - $80

So that’s up to ~$1100 to get the machine and feeder “operational” in this case. Of course the freight was a large chunk of that cost, but still a cost nonetheless.

Thanks for the input and advice so far. I’m sure I’m not done with questions yet :D

[Phillip Mitchell]

There are 3 classes of thread fitment. A closser tolerance nut in 1-14 threads should be readily available. Though in this application I'm not sure if it matters.

https://www.accuratescrew.com/classes-of-thread/

Thanks Jared. I ordered a couple of different styles of 1”x14 tpi nuts from McMaster Carr and they definitely have a different / tighter fit than the hardware store nut. In fact, each one of the 3 different 1” x 14 tpi nuts I have are a slightly different fit than each other. I went down a rabbit hole the other night ready about different thread and nut standards for different industries and applications...now I know how much I don’t know. LOL

[brent stanley]

Thanks for the comments. Yes, I am turning the spindle collar counter clockwise viewed from above. No luck breaking it free yet.

Out of curiosity, why no bushings with adjustable groovers?

Hi Phillip, bushes and sleeves are of course technically possible with adjustable groovers and others but you have to be very careful. You have to have enough sleeve in there to ensure all components and shims stay centred but not so much that it prevents adequate clamping force. Some use shims that locate on pins so it's a bit easier but getting it wrong can mean spinning tooling on the shaft and kickback so it's generally not encouraged for folks newer to it.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Update: I found a used 1 1/4” spindle for the T100 from a seller on Woodweb who was selling another T100 (in nicer condition than mine) in Los Angeles. He still had the machine after about a month and ended up selling me the 1 1/4” spindle from it along with an OEM spindle wrench and some spacers for $200. The package showed up looking like it was delivered by beavers, holes in the corners of the cardboard and with a spacer missing as well as the “leverage” rod that slips through the top of the wrench that you use to tighten and loosen. Bummer...thankfully the real meat and potatoes showed up and was undamaged.

I ended buying some nuts as well as a 3’ length of high strength carbon steel 3/4” rod that fits in the holes of the pipe wrench from McMaster Carr. Finally got around to trying to loosen the old 1” spindle again now that I have a slightly better setup and it worked! It was certainly tight at first, got looser then tight again for a second but then it loosened and came right out.

The 1 1/4” spindle fits well and I measured less than 0.0005” of runout at bottom and top of the spindle. I’m almost a happy camper. Now all I lack is a few more spacers and some wiring in order to run the power feeder from my RPC and I’ll be in shaper business.

For anyone who may walk down this path after me and be uninitiated with shapers as I was - counter clockwise (from above the table) loosens the spindle to remove it. I also found a post on WoodWeb that helped me visualize what is actually happening mechanically with this particular style of spindle as it looses and tightens as the collar is double threaded. I will attach the post below.

Thanks to all that have helped thus far! This is why I love this forum.

454500

[Kevin Jenness]

Congratulations, Philip. I'm glad it is working out for you.

I'm still sticking with my vow to inspect used machinery in person before buying, though.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Congratulations, Philip. I'm glad it is working out for you.

I'm still sticking with my vow to inspect used machinery in person before buying, though.

I agree with you Kevin. This is the first time I’ve bought a machine sight unseen and while it is technically working out, there have been more little things that have bitten me / added up than any of my other used machine purchases...and they’re all old tools.

[Mike Kees]

Phillip ,my last shaper purchase was a Delta RS 15 made by Invicta. I bought it in May. Paid $1200 in person for the machine and a couple cutterheads. I ended up spending about $300 more on spacers and new handles from McMaster Carr. Also made the smallest insert ring from baltic birch. All this to say that you are still in a good spot with a good machine with out too much invested. I did buy mine in person ,so I did know what I was in for before I pulled the trigger. I checked out the spindle with a dial indicator and had it fired up ,mostly to see if it ran but also to listen to the wind down .

[Mel Fulks]

Mike, I used a Delta RS-15 for about 3 years in an employment. I like it. Had not before used one with changeable spindles before ,and did not
think the manual instructions were good on that one point.

[Jared Sankovich]

Update: I found a used 1 1/4” spindle for the T100 from a seller on Woodweb who was selling another T100 (in nicer condition than mine) in Los Angeles. He still had the machine after about a month and ended up selling me the 1 1/4” spindle from it along with an OEM spindle wrench and some spacers for $200.

Glad to hear you were able to find a spindle.

[Mike Kees]

Mel ,I would be interested to hear how you changed the spindle. I do not have a different spindle, came with a 1 1/4'' . Also have no wrench for the spindle, however some day I may need to know how this works.

[Mel Fulks]

Mike, machine came with a “wrench” that was a pipe about 3 or 4 inches in diameter . A rod went through the top of it as a handle to turn it.
Couple of lugs on the pipe engaged the spindle base. Our shaper ,bought used, had the spindle improperly installed . Would have come out
if machine had been run counter clockwise.
The wrench turned a collar that pulled the spindle up from Morse taper

[Jared Sankovich]

That seems to be the standard euro arrangement. My casolin and invicta use the same style dual thread retaining nut. I know GOMAD, Bauerle and I believe Martin used the same system as well.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Mike, I will post a few photos of my spindle wrench setup, which may be very similar (identical?) to the Invicta wrench from the sounds of it. If you go back to the previous page and read the attachment I posted from WoodWeb towards the bottom of the page, it explains in detail how to change out this type of spindle.