jointer setup, high speed steel and experienced guys with set up tools

[Warren Lake]

Changed out knives and for the first time used one of those set up Gizmos. It came with some knives I bought at an auction but had not tried it. Instructions said accurate to .001. Spent time with it figured a few things out and it was not even close to accurate how I used it. Went back to my old way and accurate to .0005. The set up tool has good potential I would think. I think the head might have a dip close where one of the magnets sit on the set up tool on the head, I tucked one magent both sides to the heal of the knife. Reality is knives come up .001 when snugged, all of them and pretty consistent.

Went back to the dial, zero on the head and then turn the head and the dial reads the peak of the knife, very accurate.

In set up and tapping down usually find the middle doesnt match the sides so some tweaking. What type of accuracy are you getting with those set up tools? Is the claim of .001 possible?

Here is the set up tool. Next is what I think is an issue, if not its still not right. You can see the magnet on the right extends out so the knife tip sits on magnet, left one you can see the magnet does not protrude and you can see the cuts in the metal around it from a previous owner. Right off the bat I start looking at manufacturing, operator error possible as well. More likely what I was doing but still cant get too enthused when I see that.

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went back to how ive always done it once i packed in the wood block method. the only thing that bugs me with this is the belt memory always wants to make the head creep. I did stuff the rubber ends of pliers in to freeze it but I need to rotate it then not have to take off when i let it go. too much to loosen the belt a bit still would be nice. I should change out to cog belts as well. Havent felt memory in the ones I have.

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[Mike Kreinhop]

The distributor for my jointer/planer sent me a set of those magnetic devices. After trying to use them once, and have one come apart, they went into the recycling bin and are long gone. I use a version of the method that Bob Vaughn shows in this video. I start with all of the knives a few thousands of an inch high, and tap them down with a wooden block.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRnrWOwun68

The easiest and fastest method for me, was to get rid of the springs under the knives and use a pair of welder's angle magnets to hold the knives in place. I put a sheet of printer paper between the magnets and the outfeed table to ensure the knives are slightly higher than the final height while I tighten the gib bolts only enough to hold the knives in place. This allows me to start with all of the knives a few thousands of an inch high, and then tap them down with a wooden block, while checking with the dial gauge, before tightening the gib bolt.

[Andrew Hughes]

I use a dial indicator also. I’ve tried the magnet and stick drag while they work fairly well a dial indicator is better.
When all the knives are set very close I get a zinging sound when the knives cut. Instead of a chop chop tearing sound.
I can also feel in it my hands. Since my machine is direct drive 3400 rpm one knife cut is easy to detect.
Good Luck

[Warren Lake]

the dial puts a number on things. I sent a few photos of the jigs on the head to the distributor and see what he says. I still have to measure the head and do remember the dial dropping as I got close to the back of the knife, Just didn't affect what I was doing. Is that red gauge magnetic? I like the dial on this base as you can adjust how strong the magnet in and not have to turn it on or off just leave it on part way then still slide the base side to side. Table has striations or whatever the proper name is, The base is is wide enough to ride on a number of them.

Mike thanks for the info I did try using the magnet things and had the springs out but after I wasnt getting anything consistent I went back to the springs. After I saw the magnet not hanging out on one side that was a concern as well.

I just push the knives down by hand and already they are in the ball park. Not accurate of course but always high then just tap them down as I go. Do you know what can be expected from a knife grinder in terms of straightness. Ive had to send them back in the past but only once but I wonder what tolerance can be expected.

[Charlie Jones]

I used to fight this time wasting battle. If you will invest in the Disposablade system the war will be won. Drop them in, tighten the gibs and your done.

[Warren Lake]

yeah heard it before, two best old guys I knew used high speed steel all their lives and never complained about it. Ive asked here a couple of times if anyone has ever measured those heads and knives (Tersa) and no one has responded, I emailed the owner of a company tonight and asked if I can come by one time and measure one of their Martin machines with my Dial and Tersas. Im just curious on tolerances on that stuff.

If I wanted Tersa its not a machine I can replace the head, Combination machine. This is part of the trade when learned it. What I do works fine, it only came up because I tried a gizmo and so far its failed. So far id say I dont get it. Will see how the company responds.

I have Esta stuff that came with one machine, think a few different lengths. I might have tried it long ago then wonder why its not in the machine now. Supplier of the set up gauge supplies those knives as well.
They didnt have carbide when I asked.

[Bobby Robbinett]

I use the self set knife setup in my jointer as it takes all or most of the effort out of it. I still check the knives and everything with a dial indicator. I have my big Grizzly jointer dialed in tight.

On another note, I have been looking for a used large 16” or bigger jointer with a long bed. I would drive a long ways if I found one at a good price. But several months ago a guy local to me had a big SCMI model that I almost bought. I gave him a deposit to hold it for a couple of weeks. He had a factory liquidation business. Unbeknownst to me he left the jointer outside uncovered for those two weeks. It was rained on almost daily. Needless to say I backed out and lost my deposit.

[Tom M King]

I use a strip of Boxwood. Years ago, I bought some special dial indicator holders, but you can feel less than a thousandth of an inch, with the right setup. I have a thread here somewhere. I set the knives so they won't move on their own, but you can still slide them behind the gib by pushing it down with the strip of wood. The strip of wood pushes the knife down, while you rotate the head back and forth with the wrench on a gib screw. When you feel it brushing the wood, but not pushing it up (you have to hold it lightly), tightening the gib will squeeze the knife up not quite one thousandth. The strip of wood has to be moved if you cut a scallop out of it, but that's evident. Keep the strip of wood down on the outfeed table, and you can't push one down too far. I can set a knife in about 20 seconds.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Warren, I've measured the head on my machine, it holds the disposable knives in a carrier.

The carrier has set screws for initial adjustment. Mine is setup to 0.001" and I've checked replacement knives and they're in that range as well. I expect that Tersa would be at least that good..........Regards, Rod.

P.S. I use a dial indicator for measurement.

[Robert Hazelwood]

I don't like the jigs because things just move around too much when you tighten the gib screws. You end up having to check them with a dial indicator or stick-on-outfeed-table anyways. I prefer just using the dial indicator because I like being able to see where the knife height is as I adjust. I put the knife in a bit low, turn the adjustment screw and watch the indicator as it rises until it's about 0.002 below. Usually the knife will rise to zero as I tighten the gib screws. I do the far end first, then set the indicator up on the middle of the knife and adjust the middle to zero using the near-end screw, and lock it down. Then do the near end. That way you can "straighten" a knife that isn't ground perfectly straight.

I'm not as fast as Tom but I can do it in less than 5 minutes per knife, and usually in one shot without having to go back and fix. So it's kind of a satisfying task instead of an annoying frustration. By the last knife it is probably one or two minutes.

[Tom M King]

I took the raising screws, and any springs out of my jointers. I do keep a right angle hook handy, in case one drops down too far, to pull it back up.

[Warren Lake]

hi thanks all, I do have Esta and went looking last night after posting, found people on this forum who were not happy with the insert things. Its too long to remember but they might have even been in this machine but had to wonder why im not using them.

Tom not following your stuff there. Ive done this with no springs and with the springs and found a few things to lift them up. I used to say I can set the knives to .0005 but this time round it was more accurate than that. Pretty much bang on not that that fine is needed. Changing knives there is more to it, if your knives have been in a while then there is pitch on the chip breaker and all the stuff needs to be cleaned so this five second stuff sorry I dont buy it, my knives come out the whole area the gib sits in is wire brushed and the gibbs go on a wire wheel, stuff is clean when it goes back together. Will depend on how long they have been in and different types of materials you have run.

They turned out great and set the machine up to experiment with hollow. Did .003 spring on 27" and it felt pretty good and closed easily, it might still be a bit too much. Thing that did annoy me is getting material to slide nice. I had scothchbrighted the tables then waxed with liquid carnuba and wiped it when the old knives were in and stuff was still not sliding well. I realized I dint leave the wax long enough.Going to try a power buffer today as im curious wool pad. Did leave the wax longer and stuff slid nicely. What i had before and my fault was stuff was slding nice then sticking a bit. I dont like that I dont use guards and when the tables are right the material floats like a hovercraft.

On the canadian site there was a post about a WD 40 product replacing johnstones past wax. Since WD had just given me some sample product of rust proof I contacted the salesman abd asked to find out whats in it, since contacted him again and still no response so that came to mind. For years ive said I have had better service from people in the US all my life than from people in Canada. So read this you canadians The US people blow you away when it comes to service (other than the Helmetin people :) ILl email the guy today third time now and see if I can get answers on what is in that stuff.

I think I read the hook system on the esta is only on smaller knives, then its the set screws from below you adjust and supposed to be exactly the same knew are dropped in. Ill look at the stuff again later today.

Rod where did you measure your head, I think we all have to measure more than just the outsides so for this at 300 MM ive measured both outside and the middle, on all three knives the middle did not follow the outside so set up was in three places on each knife.

Tom ill read over what you said again later and digest it. I

[Tom M King]

I use carb cleaner when the gibs need cleaning. Needs to be done outside though. I tried to do a search here for my thread, but didn't find it.

[Tom M King]

PM'ing you a link to a thread with pictures of me setting knives on a 6" jointer.

[Warren Lake]

thanks thats impressive what you did with the hand plane. No experience with it but get it. Id grind shaper knives or have them done but only cause thats what we learned. Always wondered about the hand planes

If your point there is you get your knives set right by pushing them down in the head with a piece of wood how do you register where the head is at the top of its arc to do that. Ive used wood in different ways in the past but switched over the dial. I like seeing the numbers. If you set up with wood then tested with a dial then it would put numbers on what you have.

LIke a speedometer in a car you dont know for sure you can be close. I remember a top finishing company doing a seminar and the instructor said many of the real many finishers for years said I dont need a gauge Ive been spraying cars for 30 years I can tell by the sound blah blah. So he checked them and not one was ever right.

On the shaper for serrated or even corg I turn the head and do a scrape test on a scrap of wood. Ive used lac reducer enough times to clean the gunk but in the shop late wood stove going didnt want the smell, the wire wheel on the grinder does a great job fast and leaves a polished finish. In too many cases cleaning stuff up is part of the equation that is never shown.

also this is what i had read. Tolerances listed are crap including what the poster said he could get on his old way. .002 to .005 is not good its bad. My worst case in the past was .0005 and this time much better.


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[Tom M King]

I measured it years ago, but only need the results, and it's been so long ago, that I don't remember what the measurement was. Here is a link to some sash whose stiles, and rails were finished off the flattening pass on two sides. They went into a 1798 museum house that had none of the interior woodwork painted. http://historic-house-restoration.com/images/DSC_0030_2959.JPG

The position of the top of the arch doesn't matter, because you sweep the head back, and forth with a wrench on a gib screw. While doing this, when the wood rises up, you push the knife down. Since the knife is so sharp, you will need to use a fresh spot on it when the knife gets down to the point that you can feel it brushing the bottom of the wood, but not moving it any. If the wood on the outfeed table is not allowed to tilt, with the end off the outfeed table, it's not possible to push one down too far.

This is done on both ends. When both ends are close, get one just right, and tighten that gib screw. Then the same on the other end. I don't know if you can flex a non-straight knife in the middle, but I expect not.

I don't need to know what the measurement is. Just to get this result. I get paid to produce work, not theorize about how to produce it.

Here's that picture of a piece of Cypress run over a freshly installed set of knives. Reflected light if from a North facing window. It's plenty good enough for the work I do,and makes a nice sound too. Knives sharpened on water stones.:

[Warren Lake]

its not theory its fact. I just put 14" knives in. Sides set to .0000 pretty much, (.050 above the head to the tip) middles were off on all three knives different amounts. These thicker and wider knives than the 8" General Jointer ground by a pro service. Knives were honed first with a hard arkansas and burr pushed back and forth then removed by dragging. They are wicked sharp. The honing did not make the inaccuracy I found and have always found some amount out worst case being one service that gave me fresh knives out .015

There are other reasons for a dial like many years ago I determined what knife projection I wanted from the head and how it affects machining. Once I found what worked well ive always stuck to that as it worked best for me. A straight accurate set up will rely on snug stuff up a bit and use a wood block (mallet in my case) to gently tap stuff into straight. Check your knives with a dial in three places and you will likely see they are not straight the stakes go up as the length goes up. Just one of the ways a dial tells shows whats going on and it shows you what you have when you are tapping it down.

Any amount being out will still work and give nice results with fresh razor sharp honed knives. You could be out .005 and would still get a clean cut from one knife because of the fresh sharpness.

I put this post to find out about setting jigs and if people use them and if they are any good. So far im not convinced, they have much value and the company didnt respond. Ill try the manufacturer next.