Cosman dovetail saw vs Lie-Nelson

[Brian Biela]

I'm a fairly new wood worker and have been using a Japanese dovetail saw. I'm looking at leaning towards the LN, then I watched Rob Cosman's dovetail video and his discussion about his saw. Has anyone used both? Is it worth twice as much???? Thanks!

[Frederick Skelly]

I have the (standard) LN and it is a great tool. I have not tried the Cosman. The "22 tpi starting teeth" is intriguing, but I don't know that it's worth all that extra money. Let's see what people who have actually used it have to say. (Learning to start a 15 tpi saw is not difficult. Takes a little practice. LINK TO GOOD ARTICLE (https://toolsforworkingwood.com/store/blog/161))

I will say, if you are going to pay $250-$300 for a dovetail saw, you have several additional options beyond just the Cosman. So do your homework before you decide. Examples: Bontz Saw Works, Badaxe, Grammercy and several others.

[Mike Henderson]

I have the LN version of the Cosman saw. LN called it "progressive teeth". In my opinion it's an interesting concept but I find I don't need it or use it. I think the idea is that you can start the cut using the fine teeth and then lengthen your stroke to cut faster. I just don't have any problem starting the cut with the coarser teeth.

If you do have a problem starting your cut you can use a chisel and cut a small "notch" where you want the cut to start.

I think the standard LN saw is great and recommend it. Don't spend the extra money.

Mike

[When I first started making dovetails, I used a dozuki. I didn't have any problems with it cutting straight but it was fairly slow - the one I was using had fairly fine teeth which made for a slow cut.]

[John Keeton]

Haven’t used the LN, but the Cosman saw is excellent. However, I haven’t done any dovetails in several years, but it does look nice in my cabinet!!

[Derek Cohen]

I have two saws with “progressive” teeth, one a crosscut saw for joinery, and the other aimed at dovetailing. This type of saw has a section of finer teeth at the toe, to aid in starting off a saw cut.

But this presumes that all saw cuts start at the toe, and this is not always the situation. I tend to start a dovetail a few inches back on the saw plate, where there are none of the finer teeth, and where there is less weigh on the workpiece. That is the very opposite style used by the Cosman saw, where RC aims to place high downforce. Hence the extra heavy brass back. I have not used one of his saws, and am not criticising the design, but rather stating that this is not going to suit me. I like lighter saws, or saws where it is easier to take the weight off the toe when starting a cut. The very opposite of the RC saw is the Gramercy. I would argue that the Gramercy is a dovetail saw for advanced sawyers, while the RC is for beginners. The RC saw probably does a good job here, but eventually one will learn what to do, and then you are left with a saw that fatigues owing to the high mass.

The Lie Nielsen dovetail saw I have is the standard 15 tpi. Keep in mind that mine has been sharpened several times over the dozen or more years I have used it, so hardly original. But I recall when new that the zero rake teeth were really hard to start. It took some time to get used to this (however, have increased the rake to about 4 or 5 degrees) , but now I love it since it offers a more aggressive, faster rip. This is also a saw more for the experienced user. It requires a light touch starting the saw cut .... which RC clearly recalls, as he used this saw for many years when he was the LN agent in Canada. His own dovetail saw was no doubt designed in reaction to the LN saw.

The absolute best dovetail saw, in my opinion, for someone starting out is the Veritas 14 ppi. The weight is lower (thanks to the resin composite back), while the handle is as comfortable to the LN. The important factor is the 14 degree teeth rake, which makes for a smooth cutting saw. It is not aggressive, like the LN, but still cuts fast enough.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Ben Ellenberger]

I started in the last couple years. Like you, I first used a dozuki. I got the veritas 14 ppi dovetail saw and I really like it. There is a learning curve with learning how to start cuts, but I find it easier to cut straight compared to the dozuki.

[David Publicover]

I have a Cosman dovetail saw and like it a lot. It’s very well made, feels substantial and cuts straight. The handle fits my hand nicely and it looks very good. I don’t always start my cuts on the finer teeth and have no problems. I much prefer it to the Veritas dovetail saw I had but it was considerably more money. The RC saw simply worked better for me than the LV saw but I also preferred it for reasons beyond performance. Whether those factors make it “worth it” seems a very personal calculation to me. It’s worth noting that my dovetails still don’t look like Robs...
I do have a Veritas crosscut saw which I quite like so nothing here against LV products.
I was able to pick up a second hand LN tenon saw this week that was unused. It is a beautiful looking saw but I haven’t had a chance to really use it yet so have no opinions about it’s performance. I expect it to work very well though.

[Phil Gaudio]

I've used the Cosman, the LN regular plate, thin plate, and progressive pitch saws. My recommendation would be to go for the LN thin plate (.015) model. Cuts beautifully and easier to start compared to the regular plate. Added bonus: its one of the least expensive premium saws on the market, and LN will re-sharpen the saw for you for a very modest fee.

[Rick Erickson]

I've owned and used both. The LN was my first saw purchase. I love the company and all of their tools. I loved their Dovetail saw. I then made the 'mistake' of trying the Cosman saw. My LN immediately went up for sale. I now own 4 Cosman saws.

[Brian Biela]

Thanks for responding. What makes the Cosman saw better for you?

[Rick Erickson]

Thanks for responding. What makes the Cosman saw better for you?

Easier to start
Better cut
Weight/Balance
Grip fits my hand better - and is consistent with other saws I own of his - they all fit the same

If you don't have access to the Cosman saw to try - I think you would like the LN saw. I did. It sure costs a lot less :-). I was very successful at cutting dovetails with it. It's like a lot of other hand tools - You can be happy with a Stanley #4 until you try a LN.

[Frederick Skelly]

Easier to start
Better cut
Weight/Balance
Grip fits my hand better - and is consistent with other saws I own of his - they all fit the same

If you don't have access to the Cosman saw to try - I think you would like the LN saw. I did. It sure costs a lot less :-). I was very successful at cutting dovetails with it. It's like a lot of other hand tools - You can be happy with a Stanley #4 until you try a LN.

Rick,
Do you find yourself continuing to use the "22 tpi starting teeth", or have your sawing skills improved to the point you no longer need that feature? I ask, because I keep thinking there are other good saws in that price range in addition to the RC. Not trying to argue - I havent touched an RC saw - just trying to understand your usage.

Thanks.
Fred

[Mike Henderson]

The quality of produced dovetails has more to do with the skill of the woodworker than the saw. I produced good dovetails with a dozuki and only upgraded to a LN saw because the Dozuki had fine teeth and cut slowly.

I can cut dovetails faster with my LN saw but I don't think they're any better because of the saw.

Think about how many dovetails you're going to cut and how often, before you purchase a dovetail saw. More time spent working on your skills may provide a better return than buying a very expensive saw.

Mike

[Unless you're going to do a lot of dovetails, almost every day, you're probably at the inflection point where saws more expensive than the LN (or equivalent) just don't provide much gain.]

[Rick Erickson]

Rick,
Do you find yourself continuing to use the "22 tpi starting teeth", or have your sawing skills improved to the point you no longer need that feature? I ask, because I keep thinking there are other good saws in that price range in addition to the RC. Not trying to argue - I havent touched an RC saw - just trying to understand your usage.

Thanks.
Fred

Valid question - I would say it depends on the wood. I don't see the starting teeth as a 'newbie' feature. Paul Sellers says he even grinds the first few teeth on his saw. I would say my experience is a little different than Mikes. My dovetails got a good bit cleaner/more consistent with my RC saw and I enjoyed using the saw more. I don't consider myself a 'natural' when it comes to woodworking - I have to work at it. I do find that buying the best tools I can afford the more successful I am. Other's don't subscribe to that. They are likely more skilled than I am. Back to the Cosman saw and your points about other good saws. I agree - there are a lot of excellent saws out there - including the LN. I'm not trying to sell a Cosman saw - just expressing my personal experience :-). I really don't think you would go wrong with a LN saw at all. It's a great saw for a very decent price. Plus the fact that LN products have excellent resale value if you ever did change your mind.

And I've kept the vendor list to LN and RC because that was the title of your post :-). There are some other good ones out there. Bad Axe is still producing them - but you may have to get on the wait list. And of course, Veritas.

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks Rick!

[Bob Jones 5443]

Cosman clearly positions his saw for eager beginners (like me). For now I am definitely using the starting teeth. I'm well aware that 1) it's a crutch, and 2) there is a mighty placebo effect. But achieving consistent, tight joinery takes a combination of skill and confidence. In these early days, I'm light on the skill scale, so the confidence I derive from the Cosman saw's features is welcome.

I do hope that I will eventually reach a point where I can cut straight every time, as I have built skills over time in a number of other areas of the craft/hobby. If the heavy back and the starter teeth ease my passing, I'll be satisfied with the Cosman saw. It doesn't hurt that I got it "used" (but not really much) at a discount.

But I totally agree with Mike Henderson that it's the guy or gal pushing the saw, not the saw. I'm also learning with dozukis. So wish me luck, everyone, as I try to catch up to you.

[Mike Henderson]

There's a way you can easily and accurately start your dovetail saw and avoid the purchase of a progressive saw. I'll explain with some pictures:

I marked out some dovetails on a piece of scrap. I'm assuming you're doing tails first. Note that I marked the waste with an "X".
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Next take a chisel and place it on the line, at the edge of the board, with the flat part of the chisel against the tail.
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Push the chisel in about 1/4 inch - maybe a bit less than that. Then come in from the waste side so that you create a notch. I show a notch on both sides of the board because you can start your cut from either side. You would just have to do one.
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Then lay your saw into the notch and lightly began your cut. Your saw will start without grabbing and your kerf will be exactly on the line.
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The disadvantage of this approach is the time lost creating the notch. As you improve your sawing technique you'll stop cutting the notch and just saw.

This is not some technique I invented - it's been around the woodworking community for a long time, probably back to our ancestors.

One warning: MAKE SURE you do the notch on the waste side. If you do it on the tail you'll have a notched tail in your finished product.

Mike

[Phil Mueller]

Nice technique, Mike. Will definitely give that a try next time.

[Jim Koepke]

Mike, that used to be one of my ways for getting a saw started. Since then learning to use the heel of my hand on the lower horn to lighten the saw as it starts the cut has worked very well for controlling a saw at the start of a cut.

jtk

[Mike Henderson]

Here's one more technique that will improve your dovetails. Unfortunately, it will cost you $25 to add to your double square.

I'm assuming you're doing tails first in this discussion.

The problem many beginning dovetailers have is cutting square across the wood. This is a problem because you transfer the shape of your tail to the pin board and depending on how you mis-cut your tail, the space between the pins will be either too tight or too loose. It's important to have your tails square.

I took the piece of scrap I used in the earlier post a bit further.
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I cut one side of one tail out of square.
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I now want to check the sides of the tails to see if they're square. I can do this easily on the outside of one tail with my double square.
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But I can't get my double square blade between the two tails.
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But if I have a narrow blade for my double square, I can get that between the tails to check if they're square. This one is square.
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But this one is not. You can see a gap on the right side.
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To fix this, I use a chisel and pare downward.
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I can trim the side of the tail square. I pare and then check, and pare and check, until I'm satisfied that it's square.
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The thin blade is made by (http://www.sterlingtoolworks.com/store/#!/Sterling-DTR-1-Dovetail-Ruler-Blade/p/50394580/category=22740039)Sterling Toolworks (http://www.sterlingtoolworks.com/) and is $25. You have to supply the double square. Lee Valley makes a similar tool (https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/marking-and-measuring/squares/72730-lee-valley-small-double-square?item=15N0501)but the blade is too short.

If you buy the Sterling ToolWorks blade, make sure you protect it so it doesn't get bent. If it gets bent it will be useless.

Mike

[Derek Cohen]

There is another way to ensure square tails, and Cosman does a variation of this.

The method and tool originally comes from Kevin Drake (who makes the Tite Mark gauge). Kevin also does one of the progressive toothed saws I referred to earlier on. Here is that saw, along with the tool to which I refer, the Kerf Starter. Incidentally, the pair were sent to me by Eric Brown, from this forum, to review. That can be found here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/GlenDrakeJoinerySaw.html

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/GlenDrakeJoinerySaw_html_m39a56941.jpg

The Kerf Starter is a scraper (where RC uses a shortened saw blade). The aim is to scrape a deeper kerf for the saw blade when marking out ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/GlenDrakeJoinerySaw_html_m5bb70bfa.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/GlenDrakeJoinerySaw_html_592a4348.jpg


Then pencil in the angled lines ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/GlenDrakeJoinerySaw_html_e897b26.jpg

... and saw - the kerf will act as a guide for the teeth ...

In the case of the KD joinery saw, it starts in the front section (which actually has no teeth) and then moves progressively to larger and larger teeth ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/GlenDrakeJoinerySaw_html_m6251050f.jpg


Saws like this certainly can aid a novice. In time, however, one outgrows them. The Kerf Starter is actually a great tool, and it takes no more time to use than using a knife or pencil. I tend to knife in the line in the end grain, and even this fine line is enough to guide the saw ... although I can now do this in my sleep with my eyes closed. You will too after enough practice.

Aids, such as the Blue Tape method, are for vision rather than sawing accuracy, and this really highlights the importance of being able to see the lines clearly.

Lastly, there are three ways to attack the tails when sawing. I wrote about these in a review of the Veritas 20 tpi dovetail saw (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/TheVeritas20ppiDovetailSaw.html). The names come from the individuals who I associate with them ...

When starting the saw cut one has a choice of three methods from which to choose. The “Rob Cosman (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxIgNel0H_I)” method is to start at the far edge of the board, saw a slight bevel, and then saw horizontal. The advantage here is that the blade gains a purchase in the wood for sawing. The downside is that a saw with zero rake will get stuck in the kerf.

The “Joel Moskowitz (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/prodimg/gt/pdf/GT-DSAW9XX_INST.pdf)” method is to start on the horizontal and cut the wood evenly. The saw here is easier to start than with Rob’s method.

Finally, the “Adam Cherubini (http://www.adamcherubini.com/Dovetail_Saws.html)” method is to start the cut on the near edge so that one can follow the two adjoining marked lines, and then level the saw. This also effectively reduced the rake of the teeth and makes for an easy start. The downside is that a low bench can make the stance uncomfortable.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/TheVeritas20ppiDovetailSaw_html_m736c552e.jpg The “Rob Cosman”

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/TheVeritas20ppiDovetailSaw_html_m586de7e0.jpg The “Joel Moskowitz”

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/TheVeritas20ppiDovetailSaw_html_m654f2955.jpg The “Adam Cherubini”


Regards from Perth

Derek

[Stephen Rosenthal]

I use something similar, a 60+ year old Craftsman linoleum cutter (needs a sharpening). Perhaps not as refined as the Glen Drake Kerf Starter, but does the job. I use it when I need to scribe a line deeper and more pronounced than can be achieved with a marking knife. It’s a method I learned from my dad, a master woodworker and furniture restorer. Modern versions are available for $5.00 at the big box stores. One caveat: always use a metal straight edge.447867

[Curt Putnam]

I cheerfully admit to using the Kerf Starter for"real" (non-practice) cuts. It was Kevin Glen-Drake who gave me my 1st sawing lesson. I bought his joinery saw but soon decided I wanted teeth on the full blade length and had the blade filed to 16 ppi. It is a good saw = one can reverse the blade and use it as a pull saw. Easily replaced blade.

I tend to do a combination of the Joek and Cosman methods only, being unsteady of hand, I prefer to start closer to the heel.

[Bob Jones 5443]

Curt, I came across a video of Kevin Glen Drake the other day. I remember thinking I'd like to do a one-week workshop in sawing technique with him. Where did you do your lesson?

[Curt Putnam]

Curt, I came across a video of Kevin Glen Drake the other day. I remember thinking I'd like to do a one-week workshop in sawing technique with him. Where did you do your lesson?
It was at my 1st Lie-Nielson Hand Tool event in San Diego. I wandered in fat, dumb and happy - not knowing it was a sales event. The 1st stand was Kevin's and I walked on by. Anyway, I got back and asked if I could try the saw. Of course I could. Since nothing else was going on , Kevin proceeded to correct my stance and stroke. By this time (~½ hr), some other folks were standing around and he sequed into the kerf starter demo and then other folks wanted a turn. I have forgotten the name of the young lady taking orders for him but she later turned up in FWW as an author.

I did not buy into his total system. The Kerf Starter made sense to me then and does now as does the burnisher/file he sells to maintain it. The saw interested me since it was the first one I found with a handle that fit my large hands. Whether I can do so or not, I belong to the school of See the Line, Cut to the Line.