Anybody sell a sharpening "kit"? Stones, honing guides etc...

[Glenn Lewis]

I have a Worksharp 3000 which has been a good tool and still quite useful, but it doesn't have the capacity for some of my wider plane blades and I always feel like everybody is working with sharper tools than me 😁. I am trying to learn more about other sharpening methods, primarily water stones with a good honing guide, but the options out there are a little overwhelming. Does anybody sell a kit to get me started? If not can anyone recommend what I should piece together to get started? don't know what i need to lap, what grits i need for stones, what guides are best, etc... Thanks.

PS i think this is my first post here in over 9 years! I did search but didn't find anything addressing this specifically.

[David Bassett]

... Does anybody sell a kit to get me started? ...

Have you seen the disagreement sharpening threads cause around here? :) Now think about how hard it would be for a vendor to create a kit that'd satisfy a significant number of customers.

That said there have been a few. Since you're interested in water stones, you could replicate one of the stone sets Stu used to sell at Tools from Japan (RIP). His recommended set was Sigma Power #1000, Power #6000, & Power #13000, plus Atoma #400 Diamond Plate. His budget set was Suehiro Cerax 320, Cerax 1000, and Cerax 5000 / Rika 5000 (same stone labeled and sold in two product lines). He still recommended the Atoma diamond plate for flattening. All these are best with a short soak.

If you don't want to soak stones at all, the Shapton Pro stones have been widely recommended. They come in nice boxes that double as stone holders. I don't recall a specific set of grits being recommended, but rather some mix of coarse, medium, and fine grits.

As far as honing guides, they are all over the map. Eclipse clones are sort of the classic cheap option. It seems to work well for many people. Both Lee Valley and Lie-Nielsen both have more robust and more precise guides. While more expensive and each with some limitations, both have very positive reviews. Or, you could learn to sharpen freehand. Freehand will be more versatile but require more time & practice to master.

[Jim Matthews]

The sort of steel makes a (little) difference.

What blades don't fit?

****

The Norton brand of waterstones offer good value with their dual sided stones.

I would not order anything finer than #8000, substituting Autosol or Flitz metal polish on a hardwood strop, instead. Finer waterstones are expensive.

Have a browse of our own Derek Cohen's website for reviews of various guides, including a "10 cent" version which could be made for wider blades.

http://inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/The%2010%20Cent%20Sharpening%20System.html

The wide blade guides are either very expensive (like the excellent Kell guide) or prone to rocking on a small central wheel.

****

I primarily sharpen freehand, using a Coarse India Oilstone and. Lily White Arkansas - both with WD40.

Finer polishing is done on a "Hindustan" stone given to me in a trade.

I find that larger blades are easier to handle, little blades tire my hands in a sharpening session.

[chris carter]

If I could go back in time to when I first started sharpening tools, I would tell myself to get one of those double sided 1000/300 grit diamond stones, a leather strop, and the Veritas honing guide. Then as you get better, you can skip the guide for all but the most troublesome blades. I know many around here will disagree, particularly the natural stone folks and those that don’t like strops. But I think that double sided diamond stone and a strop is all you will really ever need (other than maybe a bench grinder).

[Rob Luter]

Rob Cosman bundles complementary sharpening products together in kits. They range from entry level to advanced.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Let me start by saying that I am surprised that you have a blade that will not work well on your worksharp. That said, I did not care for mine so I gave it to a friend who lives far enough away that I have no idea if he uses it. That said, I will take your word for it!

Step 1: Define what you really need to do. Do you need to reprofile? Fix damaged blades? Mostly maintain what you have?

For serious fixing (and similar), nothing like a grinder of sorts, but I don't think that you are asking about that. I picked up a junky grinder for that sort of thing and it works just fine. You just need to be very careful to not overheat the tool.

I do most of my main sharpening on my Tormek. They have a cult following and it is very easy to then finish it up with only a few stones after that.

Next figure out how much time you want to spend flattening stones and if you are willing to work with a little water, a lot of water, or even some oil making a mess in your shop. It is messier to soak a stone than to spray a stone.

I put down a silicon pad (like a place mat) that I picked up on amazon for cheap. That contains most of my mess. I do not like soaking stones so I got rid of most of my stones that I need to soak.

Next, how high a grit do you want to go while sharpening? It is possible to sharpen on a Washita or a fine diamond stone and then go right to a strop.

For that occasional fix, there is always sand paper on granite or glass, which is generally not expensive and usually faster than diamonds because it is probably coarser. Also fast (and cheap) would be a coarse Norton silicone carbide stone (fast fast fast, but they dish pretty fast) or the Norton India stones. Note that the finest Norton India is only P400 (the India stones do not dish that fast).

If you want a water stone that you do not soak, then you probably want a Shapton. The PRO stones are thicker (more stone for the money) but were designed for Chef Knives. The water stones were designed more for woodworking. That said, I own both. The glass stones generally cut faster. With the Shapton stones, i simply spray them with water and off I go.

With a water stone, you need to be able to flatten them, so, you need to have something for that. I use a diamond stone to flatten my water stones. The finer water stones I flatten with my coarser water stones usually.

In the past, I will usually use my Tormek (hollow grind) and then free hand on a 5K then a 15K. I can then usually maintain on just those two stones with no problem.

Arkansas stones are great, you rarely every need to flatten them, but you can spend a bunch of money on the finer stones. That said, I have seen David Weaver run his plane blade over a Washita, strop it, then take whisper thin shavings. Not a lot of money and pretty fast all things considered.

Also, spyderco makes ceramic stones that many people like to use. Not a lot of flatten there.

I have rarely seen specific kits for sale, but I have seen them. One example is a set of Preyda Arkansas stones at Woodcraft. The stones are all 6x2 if I remember correctly. Most of my stones are larger than that and I prefer Dan's Arkansas stones, but I have been able to use the Preyda stones on knives.

You an buy stones that have different grits on each side. They glue two stones together usually. With the Norton India IB8, it is a coarse India on one side (P150) and a fine India on the other side (P400). That is about $25 (ish). A Soft arkansas stone is not that expensive and it is generally assumed to be about P800 and you can go to a strop after that.

If possible, see if you can give some of these things a try before you buy them. My local woodcraft has diamond stones set out that you can try. If you live near Columbus Ohio, I can arrange for you to try lots of things. :D

If you want Shapton stones (or similar), decide how fine you need to start. Glass stones start at 120. For that coarse, I use sand paper.

The Shapton Glass 1K, 2K, and 3K are mostly listed as excellent for everything. You probably do NOT need the "high carbon" (hc) versions so get the regular ones unless you specifically have a need for the HC version.

The Glass 4K, 6K, and 8K are all listed as good to excellent for everything.

The Glass 10K, 16K, and 30K they list as not great for chisels, not sure why. My 16K produces great results with my chisels. I wonder if they consider it too soft for a narrow chisel. The 16K they list as not good for a Japanese plane blade. Note that I love my 16K glass stone, but if you are good with a strop you probably do not need it.

While reading about the Shapton Pro stones, when you get to the 5K stone they list it as mostly a polishing stone. Note that this is where I usually start for touch-up, but I have a hollow grind. I cannot comment on a full bevel sharpening. But while reading about the 8K, it specifically states that although you can go from 2K to 8K, they like to put the 5K between them. At the end of the day, more intermediate steps usually just mean less time per step but more time preparing and cleaning because you use more stones.

So, I would pick something like a 1K, 2K, or 3K, then jump to a 4K, 6K, or 8K. If I started with a 1K, I would probably get the 4K and 8K rather than going from 1K to 8K if that is how you wanted to play it.

I think that there really is no wrong answer here, it is just what works for you. If you have a good stone (or set of stones), you just need to learn to use them and what fits into your style. I would not want to get a knife sharp from problematic on a soft arkansas stone. I have reprofiled a knife on a soft arkansas stone and it was painfully slow. It was very fast on a coarse Crystoline (silicone carbide) Norton stone. From there, to the India and then the Soft Arkansas or Washita stone. you get the picture.

Diamonds are very hard, but kind of expensive. I own them and have used them, but they are not usually my first choice. I do the hard things on the Tormek or my dry slow grinder. Flip a coin as to what I do next, but historically it has been my Shapton stones after that (for my woodworking tools).

[Prashun Patel]

I’d back up a step:

I have a worksharp 3000 and built an above wheel table to handle wide blades. You will need to get a honing jig to hold your blade though. I also bought diamond lap plates on eBay to replace the sandpaper. These things increase the usefulness of the ws3000. Even if and when you get stones, this is great for grinding primary bevels. You will always be able to use your jig; in fact you can take it right from the ws to the stone, since the presentation of the blade is identical between stones and the ws used this way.

[Eric Rathhaus]

Glenn - I'm not evangelizing for any method. But I do think you should go over to wood central and read up on what they term "Unicorn" edge. If you adopt this method, you won't need many stones or sharpening jigs. There are caveats about using it for bevel down plane irons and other questions. Again not evangelizing but I have found the method to be very quick and easy for chisels and bevel up plane blades.

[Curt Putnam]

Check out LeeValley.com and SharpeningSupplies.com or call their numbers

I, too, came from WS3000 as my introduction to real sharpening & honing. It is mostly a personal journey. I suggest that you decide on what you want to do and then come back and ask for opinions on your choices.

[Prashun Patel]

Eric, your post got me intrigued an hour ago. I since looked up Winston Chang’s and David Weaver’s videos on this. Wow. I can’t speak to the longevity of the edge but I have never gotten a superior edge so effortlessly. I hope it is repeatable. Thanks for the tip. I am going to spend some time trying this out with a chisel and a smoothing blade.

[Glenn Lewis]

Thank you for all the replies. I suppose it was wishful thinking/naive to assume there'd be a super easy "yeah punch in this item number on amazon and you're on your way to shavings a single molecule thick" 😁 especially considering i haven't really articulated want I'm trying to accomplish. I only really have 2 plane irons too big for the WS3000, a Stanley #8 and a no name wooden jointer plane. I presumed the ws3000 was not an option because the wide blade attachment that allows use of the top of the wheel for wide blades has been discontinued and seemingly unavailable.

I have a mixed bag of planes and chisels, mostly vintage via my wife's grandfather, the blades for which are various states. Most i can get suitably sharp on the WS3000. Others need grinding, others (like the no.8) i simply have never sharpened so they just sit there looking pretty on my plane till!

I think I'll start with seeing how i can adapt the the ws 3000 for the wide blades and go from there depending on the degree to which that is successful!

[Rob Luter]

...."yeah punch in this item number on amazon and you're on your way to shavings a single molecule thick"....

Shavings so thin they only have one side..... :D

[Andrew Pitonyak]

While you figure that out, you can make sure that the back is flat near the edge since you will want to do that anyway. I don't remember if you can do that nicely on the WS 3000, I think that I did that by hand when I had one beause I was always skewing something when I tried.

If you absolutely get stuck, drop me a line and I can put an initial edge using my Tormek, but that will leave you with a concave edge which is much easier to free hand, but if you do not have a stone on which to free hand to maintain it, that does not help you much. Also, you would eventually need to redo it, but it would get you working. Hmm, and if you do not have stones now, then I would also need to do the initial final sharpening off the Tormek. Well, if it helps a member here, I would do that for you.

Be sure to let us know what you decide to do and how it works out for you. Really do hope that someone near you offers to let you try what they use if you are not able to get what you need to make it work on your Work Sharp. I really did like the platform, if they discontinued that, it is a shame.

[Curt Putnam]

Thank you for all the replies. I suppose it was wishful thinking/naive to assume there'd be a super easy "yeah punch in this item number on amazon and you're on your way to shavings a single molecule thick"  especially considering i haven't really articulated want I'm trying to accomplish. I only really have 2 plane irons too big for the WS3000, a Stanley #8 and a no name wooden jointer plane. I presumed the ws3000 was not an option because the wide blade attachment that allows use of the top of the wheel for wide blades has been discontinued and seemingly unavailable.

I have a mixed bag of planes and chisels, mostly vintage via my wife's grandfather, the blades for which are various states. Most i can get suitably sharp on the WS3000. Others need grinding, others (like the no.8) i simply have never sharpened so they just sit there looking pretty on my plane till!

I think I'll start with seeing how i can adapt the the ws 3000 for the wide blades and go from there depending on the degree to which that is successful!

Check the web for Stumpy Nubbs (?) who does a very nice table for wide blades - meaning it is not difficult to make your own and better version.

[Glenn Lewis]

Ok so after googling a lot of the things/people/techniques mentioned here and reading recommend articles and watching some videos I'm feeling a little more knowledgeable but starting to think instead of asking for a kit i should've asked for the basic components required. I think that's what I'm really trying to understand.

My understanding so far is that conceptually i need stones of varying grits, a diamond lapping plate to flatten the stones, and optionally a honing guide if i don't trust the steadiness of my hand yet. Also optional would be a grinder or something more aggressive if I've got damaged edges, nicks, etc. or have to square an edge on something that's really been around the block.

Fundamentally am i missing anything? What about flattening the backs of blades, do the stones handle this presuming the grit is correct for that task?

[David Bassett]

Let's take them out of order:


... My understanding so far is that conceptually i need stones of varying grits, a diamond lapping plate to flatten the stones, and optionally a honing guide if i don't trust the steadiness of my hand yet. Also optional would be a grinder or something more aggressive if I've got damaged edges, nicks, etc. or have to square an edge on something that's really been around the block. ...

Basically yes. (You can flatten without a diamond plate, but I'd argue the diamonds are worth the incremental money because they are so much easier.)


... Fundamentally am i missing anything? What about flattening the backs of blades, do the stones handle this presuming the grit is correct for that task?

Backs of blades are just like the bevels, except of course you are at a different angle.


Ok so after googling a lot of the things/people/techniques mentioned here and reading recommend articles and watching some videos I'm feeling a little more knowledgeable but starting to think instead of asking for a kit i should've asked for the basic components required. I think that's what I'm really trying to understand. ...

What do you fundamentally need? Let's see, you need some way to remove wear and resharpen your tools, you need some way to polish & refine that edge well enough to meet your needs, you need whatever is appropriate to maintain your sharpening materials, and maybe (or probably eventually) you will want some way to reshape and/or repair damaged edges.

Beyond that you have some choices to make. Which choices are largely your personal preference. Waterstones are popular now and e.g. traditional in Japan. Oilstones seem more traditional in the US & Europe, plus seem to be having a renascence (or maybe I'm just noticing their fans more recently.) Diamonds have fans and advantages, but many use them only for coarse work and switch to different stone types for polishing steps. Sandpaper / honing film can be very flexible and do an outstanding job, (e.g. search for "Scary Sharp"), but seems to be a newer concept.

Biggest complaints I hear about waterstones are lack of water in the shop and the mess. If your shop freezes, I get it. I don't find their mess hard to contain, but understand different folks see it differently. As far as lack of plumbing, I'd argue a bottle, or pan or bucket, of water is enough, but again differences. These do typically wear faster and, unless you're skilled & careful, need to be flattened more often.

Oilstone complaints seem to be mostly they are slower, but advocates dispute that and make it sound like small differences in technique make that up. Since less mess, and no freezing, is one of the claimed advantages, I'm amused that I've sometimes heard how annoying the oily mess can be. (Different strokes! :) ) Part of the cutting slower is these typically wear slower (not exposing fresh abrasive) and tend to not need flattening, expect possibly initially.

Diamonds & abrasive papers can be used dry, but seem to work better with some lubrication to carry swarf away. With these no flattening, just replacement when worn down. Therefore their hassle is finding a suitable substrate and their downside is the cost may eventually add up to more.

On another front sharpening guide or not is fundamental as it will affect your other choices. To me, guides simplify sharpening simple stuff. More complicated, or even different, things may not work in a given jig leading to more jigs. Examples and variations abound, e.g. special narrow blade jaws, top clamping versus side clamping, and so on. If you restrict your tools to examples that work with your guide or enjoy the variety of guide solutions, guides can be a solution. For me, I've chosen to learn to sharpen freehand. I'm more or less successful and recognize I'm trading flexibility for absolute sharpening quality, at least in the short (and medium) term. For example of how this affects your other choices, Woodcraft has a set of RH Preyda Arkansas stones on sale right now. At $35 they'd be ideal to experiment with Arks, *EXCEPT* they're only 2" x 6". They'd be a little cramped for freehand use, but I don't know of any guide that could use them successfully. (Admittedly I'm less familiar with guides, but the ones I've seen really want about 3" x 8", or larger, surfaces.)

[Michael J Evans]

Glenn,
I use Arkansas and diamond stones. For the last couple years I have been more a tool collector / restorer than woodworker, but it has given me a lot of chance to sharpen blades.

I have never used water stones, but the whole concept of having to have water ready or a bucket / sink seems like a huge PIA to me. Seems like you'd have to have a dedicated space for a water stone get up.

My setup lives in a drawer that is next to my bench. Previous to that it lived on the bench top and only took up the space of the stone.

I started with sandpaper, then a soft hard ark combo, then to diamonds. I'm currently back onto using my arks to see if the edges are really better.

But... I really do love my 3 piece diamond stones. I got the set from sharpening supplies, and it was their house brand or something like that I think it was $130 for three full size stones. They cut very very fast, don't require much for lubricant, are very durable ( I don't worry about dropping and cracking them or anything hurting them.) Keep some lubricant handy, clear off a few Inches of space, sharpen up, then back in the drawer. No fussing with ponds or sinks or any of that. The set is a 300,600,1200 and leaves a very nice edge *to me. They work very quickly and do a good job And wait there's even more!... No worries of flattening EVER!

My ark set also lives in the same drawer and is about as easy, I just keep a little 3in1 oil in the drawer. Also no ponds, sinks, etc. Just grab a piece of cardboard, old rag, or even a offcut to set under the stones and go to town.
Definitely not as quick as the diamonds, but I recently added a crystolon and washita, so my opinion may change.

I'll probably get flamed for this opinion but I think for a beginner, a diamond set it definitely the best. No worries about having a dedicated area, flattening, chipping/ breaking, or even having correct lubricant. All you have to focus on is getting the metal to the stones and getting back to work.

[roger wiegand]

I had dull chisels and planes for a very long time and as a result didn't use them much. I had been sharpening them with a motorized wet stone system. I went to a Lie-Neilsen event at Phil Lowe's shop a few years ago and got a 20 minute sharpening lesson. It was transformational. I bought the three relatively inexpensive water stones they recommended as well as the relatively expensive diamond plate for flattening them. I already had a Lee Valley jig. I bought a big cafeteria tray from Amazon that had a rubber mat attached to it that keeps things from slipping and to contain any stray water. Per their instructions I've got a spray bottle of water that I spritz the stones with while I'm using them. My planes and chisels now readily produce whisper thin shavings, sharpening is much less of a production, and the mess is minimal and contained.

I think that probably just having someone show me how to do it correctly made the biggest difference. It is possible that I'm missing a whole 'nother level of sharpening nirvana? - Sure. After I put my new stuff in place and spent a couple days sharpening every tool I owned I made a small table out of curly maple where I resolved to not use sandpaper, just planes for a final surface. It came out great, and was fun to do. I wouldn't have believed it possible. So until I get to something I can't accomplish with my current setup, I'm happy. Good enough is good enough, I've got things to make and money to spend on a lot of other stuff.

[Glenn Lewis]

Okay so maybe jumping the gun a bit, but last night (after at least one bourbon) i bought the $35 3-stone arkansas stone set at woodcraft and their cheap honing guide. Shipped it was a $60 investment. It doesn't solve the wide blade problem (they're 2" wide) but think it's a small financial commitment to start down this path and see where else i want to go. Also in the course of my research and you guys pointing me in the right direction i learned and checked a lot of other stuff and realized my no 8 blade is at best going to need way more than a tune up. It's very out of square for starters and has some pitting on the back.

I did not get any sort of diamond or other material for flattening the ark stones as i read quite a bit about them not really needing flattening - please correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm going to mess around with chisels and smaller irons by hand and with guide (if it'll work on the narrow stones) and go from there.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Backs of blades are just like the bevels, except of course you are at a different angle.

For conditioning backs of blades you can just use sand paper and then move on to your stones.




Biggest complaints I hear about waterstones are lack of water in the shop and the mess.

Which is why I moved to Shapton stones, spray and go. As you said though, I would not keep them in a freezing shop I think. Note that I use a honing oil with my diamond stones also, so still a mess for me. This mess is very similar to what I use with oil stones.

There will always be some kind of mess, even dry you end up with powder to wipe up.




Oilstone complaints seem to be mostly they are slower, but advocates dispute that and make it sound like small differences in technique make that up. Since less mess, and no freezing, is one of the claimed advantages, I'm amused that I've sometimes heard how annoying the oily mess can be. (Different strokes! :) ) Part of the cutting slower is these typically wear slower (not exposing fresh abrasive) and tend to not need flattening, expect possibly initially.


Arkansas stones are slower, but, if you are using a silicone carbide stone (Norton stone) those are very fast (faster than diamond stones), but they dish faster and leave a very rough edge (in my opinion). Norton India stones are Aluminum oxide, slower, harder (less dishing) and do not cut as fast as the silicone carbide stones. Of course now you need to clean oil rather than water. Some prefer the oil because your blade will not rust from it.

From there, moving on to the Washita or Arkansas stone unless your stropping game is strong.

If you really want to condition an Arkansas stone or flatten some of these others, it is more difficult than with a water stone. The recommended seems to be silicone carbide on glass (or similar).

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I have the Preyda set, which I assume you bought. It is the first picture in this post:


https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?280119-Honing-Oil-applying-it-to-a-stone-in-the-correct-ammount

It then discusses how some people apply oil to their stones. Ultimately, you want it to be able to float things away from the stone so I am actually careful what I use depending on the stone I am using :-)

It is a nice set for the money and you can try some things with it. Note that it does NOT have one of the harder / finer stones for the final polish. If you can go from a washita to a stop, however, you can go from their hard black to a strop. The link below with "Preyda" in the list it shows what Preyda claims to be their effective grits.

I actually own stones from Preyda, Best, and Dans

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?272328-I-bought-some-Arkansas-stones-now-what

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?276528-Preyda-Arkansas-Stones

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?279814-What-is-the-finest-Arkansas-Stone-Disagreement-from-the-suppliers

[David Bassett]

Okay so maybe jumping the gun a bit, but last night (after at least one bourbon) i bought the $35 3-stone arkansas stone set at woodcraft and their cheap honing guide. Shipped it was a $60 investment. It doesn't solve the wide blade problem (they're 2" wide) but think it's a small financial commitment to start down this path and see where else i want to go. Also in the course of my research and you guys pointing me in the right direction i learned and checked a lot of other stuff and realized my no 8 blade is at best going to need way more than a tune up. It's very out of square for starters and has some pitting on the back.

I did not get any sort of diamond or other material for flattening the ark stones as i read quite a bit about them not really needing flattening - please correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm going to mess around with chisels and smaller irons by hand and with guide (if it'll work on the narrow stones) and go from there.

Looks like that's the WoodRiver clone of the Eclipse guide. Lots of people have used one successfully. You note the stone width is a limit, but the length will also be limiting with the guide. What may help is to make a "runway" at the same height as the stone so you have something to run the guide on while using the full length of the stone for honing. (Search here for the fancy version with fillers at the ends of stone boxes. It was discussed in the last few months.)

I expect those stones to come flat enough to be used, on at least one side, but you can easily check with a straight edge to be sure.

Stick with it, even if you don't have immediate success. Even with a guide there is technique and if you don't give yourself some time to master what you have you'll never become proficient. (Moving to a different solution too soon won't help you sharpen better, but it will get you started as a stone collector! ;) )

And as far as your #8 blade, if it is too far gone to rehab or the task is too daunting, Hock, Lee Valley, and others make Stanley replacement blades. (I assume in the number 8 size.) Grabbing one would let you put the plane to work while you gain skill and get ready to tackle the current blade.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I vaguely remember seeing a sharpening video where the blade was run side to side in a figure-eight pattern while swaying and locking his arms. In my mind it was Chris Swartz but I did not find the video of him doing it. I see lots of videos of people free hand sharpening a blade that is wider than the stone in a few places. For example:

1:43 in the video he has the blade angled so it fits.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmyW8nFDLr4

Rob Cosman. The video is under five minutes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLobikOSftY

This might be the full video of above at 40 minutes, but probably just more in-depth. Looks like the same setup.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okLIEoz00v0

At 17 minutes this guy is stropping with a strop narrower than the blade (see 17:00 in the video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ktq5NEqJ-Tc

Even Paul Sellers has his lade angled (see 2:00)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE4yVgdVW7s

Maybe I am thinking of the Lie Nielsen video where they sharpen by swaying your body (like 2 minutes in) with a cambered blade.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyE7-GBCrGA

If you choose to free hand, but a piece of wood at the correct angle and reference often and you will develop muscle memory. This is one set of guides that I have for when I sharpen a knife

https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Angle-Guide-Set-for-Sharpening-Stones-P889.aspx

They are just angles and you set your blade on it and it has the angle you want.

Dan's does this with their EZ Hones. Notice that the edges angle down into the stone
https://www.danswhetstone.com/product/bench-ez-hones/

Worksharp has a bunch of similar things to this
https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Work-Sharp-Whetstone-P1864C68.aspx

In fact, if you purchase the "Case Sportman's Honing Kit" it comes with a single angle guide
https://www.amazon.com/Case-00924-Sportsmans-Honing-Kit/dp/B0006705CU

Just something to consider as you expand your horizons without buying new stuff!

[Jim Matthews]

Good price.

You'll sort it out.

My Coarse stone needs flattening on occasion.
The finer stones get a "touch up" if they start to cut slow.

Fine lamp oil is an acceptable lubricant.
I'm a heretic, I use WD4O.

As mentioned above, a skewed blade can still be sharpened square.

[Brian Biela]

I would watch the Rob Cosman videos on YouTube. I'm currently using King water stones but will probably try his intermediate kit to avoid the mess with the water. I have LV jib, but I would alos look at the LN sharpening jig.

[Kevin Adams]

Fine lamp oil is an acceptable lubricant.
I'm a heretic, I use WD4O.

Hi Jim, not to start a side convo here, but I keep hearing mixed things on using WD40...it’s “too thin” and/or “it clogs the stones.” I’m not sure how those aren’t opposites. When I’ve used it on my washita and esp Dan’s black, I think it’s awesome. However, I’ve been back to using the Norton oil (and also since it is “safer” from a toxicity standpoint). Just curious if you have any opinion on all that or not really?! I do like the smell of WD40, but that’s something else!

Thanks.
Kevin

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Hi Jim, not to start a side convo here, but I keep hearing mixed things on using WD40...it’s “too thin” and/or “it clogs the stones.” I’m not sure how those aren’t opposites. When I’ve used it on my washita and esp Dan’s black, I think it’s awesome. However, I’ve been back to using the Norton oil (and also since it is “safer” from a toxicity standpoint). Just curious if you have any opinion on all that or not really?! I do like the smell of WD40, but that’s something else!

Thanks.
Kevin

Items of interest when I use honing oil.

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?280506-Help-me-understand-the-MSDS-for-Honing-Oil

I attempted to summarize some of them, for example, Norton is pretty much food safe mineral oil.




What is in it? Norton honing oil is food safe. Use it and wash it. I like Dan's honing oil, but it leaves a smell on my fingers. At the link I am about to add, I discuss the MSDS for some of the existing honing oils. When I say that I discuss, people smarter than I provided most of the information.
Will it dry out and gum up the stone? (see post #6 in the link above) I was told that some mineral oils can do this since there are many grades of mineral oil. I have some stones that have been sitting in some food grade mineral oil that I have for a few years, I should go back and check them. Apparently based on the mineral oil, some things can evaporate out and then you have a problem to deal with. You can probably fix it, but it is why I am usually kind of particular now about the mineral oil that I use. I assume that the Norton honing oil will be less prone to this.
The honing oil needs to be able to float the metal particles away so that they do not glaze the stone (or something like that).


You specifically asked about Kerosene

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?238425-How-to-use-kerosene-as-a-honing-oil-(skin-contact)

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?280119-Honing-Oil-applying-it-to-a-stone-in-the-correct-ammount

People use all sorts of things with success. I have lots of different honing oils so I generally use those. If I was visiting my Father, who does not have honing oil but does have some old stones from his Father, if I wanted to use them, I would just grab his 3-in-1 oil and not worry about it.

When I use my diamond stones, I always reach for my Smith's Honing Solution. I like that it contains things to prevent rust. Note that it does NOT claim to be an oil, it says solution. Turns out is has cleaners, lubricants, emolients, as well as rust/corrosion inhibitors. OK, I think that I have used the Gatco product on my diamond stones as well (because I have it), but I have many bottles of Smith's.

On my Crystolon (silicone carbide) and India (Aluminum oxide I think) stones, I almost always use Norton's, but I have regular mineral oil that I used with it as well. My oil bath (IM313) I use strictly Norton since the stones are left soaking in it.

I am more careful with my Washita stones than my other Arkansas stones since they are often more porous than my other Arkansas stones and I do not want things that might gum up soaking into them. I think that whatever I put on my translucent or Dan's hard black (or whatever they call it) will probably just wipe off. I am fond of Dan's honing oil for no particular reason, but I also might just use whatever I have sitting around for those. At work (I have a desk job) I have some Arkansas stones in my desk. I have Norton's and a bottle of Premium honing oil (seems to be just mineral oil) because I do not want to end up smelling like kerosene at work.

Note that there are many different grades of mineral oil. Different sizes of particles (molecules??), and when you order it from the manufacturer you specify all sorts of things about it (I think). Norton honing oil is for certain very uniform and specific to what they think you need without gumming up. Others have reported seeing it after sitting with stuff from the pharmacy. Will the stuff from the pharmacy work for you? Probably, others here use it all the time. Would I leave stones soaking in it? Well, I have some stones soaking in it but I really should have pulled them out a long time ago. They are cheap stones and I figured out that maybe I cared a year after I had last used them and I have just not gotten around to checking on them. I have only used those stones with things such as axe heads and have not needed to sharpen an axe lately. So now I would not, but I have in the past. I have a bunch of it so I might use it on things just because I have it.

If I had kerosene would I use it? Probably... Well, maybe not because I have so many other choices, but it was used for years. To quote from a very old pamphlet published by Pike, or Norton, perhaps it was both by then.... Too lazy to try to look it up, but, I do have the quote handy. Any emphasis is mine, not theres.


There are many opinions as to the best oil for oilstones but it may be laid down as a general rule that any oil which does not have a tendency to gum up or harden will answer; while on the other hand, an oil that will do this should never be used. Sperm oil is very widely used. Glycerine diluted with alcohol is a first-class oil stone lubricant, and is particularly good to leave on a stone, when putting it away, to keep it moist and ‘soft. There are some who use kerosene or coal oil and get excellent results, while others claim that kerosene hardens and glazes an oilstone. As there are many different opinions on this point, it is safer to use some oil that is conceded by all to be good.After experimenting for many years with all sorts of oils, and combinations of lubricants, we have at length found what we consider the ideal oil for use on oilstones, bones, and other abrasive surfaces. It is marketed under the name of PIKE’s STONOIL. It is absolutely free from acid, so it will not corrode or harden the stone, and is also free from vegetable matter, so that it will not become gummy, thereby causing the stone to glaze. It is in short an acidless, non-drying oil, thin enough to flow freely, yet with sufficient body to float off heavy steel cuttings. It keeps the stone soft and PERPETUALLY moist and is adapted to all kinds of stones,—Arkansas, India, Washita, and even to barber’s hones.
The NECESSITY or ALWAYS KEEPING YOUR OIL stone CLEAN CANNOT BE TOO STRONGLY EMPHASIZED. If it becomes glazed or gummed up, a good cleaning with ammonia will usually restore its cutting qualities, but if it does not, then scour the stone with sandstone and water, or sandpaper fastened to a perfectly smooth board.

[Kevin Adams]

Thanks, Andrew, and dang, I forgot about those threads and even participated in a couple of them! Shows what a pandemic year will do to your brain!! I best leave it all alone now and stick with my Norton’s oil.

Thanks sincerely for responding with all that info.

Kevin

[Jim Matthews]

When I’ve used it on my washita and esp Dan’s black, I think it’s awesome. However, I’ve been back to using the Norton oil (and also since it is “safer” from a toxicity standpoint). Just curious if you have any opinion on all that or not really?! I do like the smell of WD40, but that’s something else!

Thanks.
Kevin

I've been using it because it's available, it seems to work and it smells nice in my shop.

I doubt it's terribly toxic, but I'm not cooking in it either. Most of us hobbyists are exposed to only trace amounts of chemical agents. My real worry is small dust particles - why I don't use a power grinder or sander.

****

When my stones cut slowly (they appear black) I use a coarse Atoma stone to flatten the working face (I always use the same side) and wipe off the mess. No special disposal methods, no drying of shop rags, no rust on exposed cast iron when using it.

I buy a gallon container of the stuff to keep costs down and decant into a spray bottle.

[Matt Lau]

Have you seen the disagreement sharpening threads cause around here? :) Now think about how hard it would be for a vendor to create a kit that'd satisfy a significant number of customers.

That said there have been a few. Since you're interested in water stones, you could replicate one of the stone sets Stu used to sell at Tools from Japan (RIP). His recommended set was Sigma Power #1000, Power #6000, & Power #13000, plus Atoma #400 Diamond Plate. His budget set was Suehiro Cerax 320, Cerax 1000, and Cerax 5000 / Rika 5000 (same stone labeled and sold in two product lines). He still recommended the Atoma diamond plate for flattening. All these are best with a short soak.

If you don't want to soak stones at all, the Shapton Pro stones have been widely recommended. They come in nice boxes that double as stone holders. I don't recall a specific set of grits being recommended, but rather some mix of coarse, medium, and fine grits.

As far as honing guides, they are all over the map. Eclipse clones are sort of the classic cheap option. It seems to work well for many people. Both Lee Valley and Lie-Nielsen both have more robust and more precise guides. While more expensive and each with some limitations, both have very positive reviews. Or, you could learn to sharpen freehand. Freehand will be more versatile but require more time & practice to master.

+1 on Stu's sharpening set. I hope he's doing okay. He created an excellent set of stones that leave great results on pretty much any blade I've used (including the Chinese m4 blades)

[Glenn Lewis]

So in the relative peace of Christmas late morning when my wife feel asleep on the couch and the kids were playing with their new video games I got a chance to try things out. I brought a home depot buck bros block plane home from work that wouldn't cut butter and tried to sharpen it. I flattened the back first on 120 sandpaper adhered to a piece of glass, and also did the factory 25 degree bevel on the 120 on glass (was kind of winging it here, not sure best grit for this but it seemed to work well, using factory grind marks as a guide to see when I'd gone far enough).

Then i tried my new Arkansas stones with the WoodRiver honing guide. I used the honing oil that came with the stones and though the size of the stones limited the length of the stroke i could take, I actually got really good results (especially considering the exceptionally poor quality of the buck bros iron - I doubt you guys have had the misfortune of trying to work with one of these!). It cut my arm hair and took some pretty thin shavings on scrap walnut and cherry.

Then I tried a Craftsman chisel that I had laying around. other than some difficulty getting the bevel angle just right that worked pretty well too. I'm just setting the angle based on the instructions with the honing guide for how far out the blade should stick from the edge of the guide. I'm not sure if the existing bevel was off or if my setting it in the honing guide was off but I wasn't working with the same angle. So I had to mess around with that a little bit to get it right.

Considering all the limitations like, the relatively low quality of the steel i was working with, the size of the Stones, and the fact that I just had them set on a couple of bench cookies to keep them from moving around I'm very pleased with the initial experience.

I do think, and somebody mentioned this on here previously, that I need another step after the hard black Arkansas Stone. So I guess my next step is to figure out what that is. Strop? Do I need buffing compound for that? I'll search etc but I'm going to try some of my better blades now that I've messed around with throw away stuff.

Thanks again for all the advice. I expect I'm on way my way down the sharpening rabbit hole 😁

[David Bassett]

... Do I need buffing compound for that? I'll search etc but I'm going to try some of my better blades now that I've messed around with throw away stuff. ...

Glad to hear you're having success.

To try stropping on the cheap, do what a lot of carving guys have done and use cereal box cardboard. The inside unprinted side works pretty well when taped to something firm and flat (e.g. MDF.) Most commonly it's used with LV Green compound or FlexCut Gold compound, but I'm pretty sure that's just familiarity and availiblity. There are many many alternatives and I suspect the effects are 2nd order. Also, you'll find many recommendations for specific strop surfaces. Again I'm pretty sure the differences are real, but much smaller than stropping or not.

PS- I pretty sure there are folks getting acceptable working edges directly from Hard Arkansas stones. It may be your's needs to break in (to wear off manufacturing marks) or your technique can improve to get the best from it. OTOH- many others strop, so trying that isn't bad either.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Then i tried my new Arkansas stones with the WoodRiver honing guide. I used the honing oil that came with the stones and though the size of the stones limited the length of the stroke i could take, I actually got really good results (especially considering the exceptionally poor quality of the buck bros iron - I doubt you guys have had the misfortune of trying to work with one of these!). It cut my arm hair and took some pretty thin shavings on scrap walnut and cherry.


It cut your arm hair, I thought that was where we all stopped, don't even need to try and cut wood! :D

Do you really need a strop? A friend of mine seems to strop on his pants.... I don't, but he does!

There are strops and then there are strops! :-)

You need that horse butt expensive one, right? OK, horse butt is supposed to be the best, but I make my own from a large piece of leather that I purchased.

Do you have an old belt that you do not use that is wide enough?

Some people just rub compound on MDF. It was already suggested that you try cardboard.

Although I expect that stropping properly will make it sharper, I generally never strop (at least not off my Shapton 16K stone).

When I do strop, I usually use Formax

https://www.woodcraft.com/products/green-chrome-oxide-compound-6-oz

It is the compound sold by Sharpening Supplies (.com). For sure the Lee Valley compound will be fine. I do have Flexcut stropping compound and am told it is good. Does it really matter? Some compounds are probably not suitable for random compounds (like it might be intended for soft metals like brass, so, avoid Jewlers rouge). It is why I threw out a few name brands like Formax. But if you buy from a place like Lee Valley, you know it will be fine if they say that it is stropping compound. I questioned the guys at Sharpening Supplies and he said "oh yeah, I think that what we have is made by Formax". Yes, it is. Some people strop on bare leather, which is a good indicator that maybe it does not matter as much as it sounds like I am stating. Jim Koepke mentioned that if he does it more than a few times, it might cut worse (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?268816-Do-You-Strop-Chisels-Plane-Irons)

Before I dropped $40 on a strop like this (https://www.woodcraft.com/products/flexcut-double-sided-paddle-strop) I would probably just get the hang of sharpening, especially if you feel like things are "sharp enough". In a year or two, you will probably think it is NOT sharp enough, but welcome to the club in that regard! and some people strop on maple (I think) with compound.

I purchased some cheap strops on ebay just to look at them. I prefer the ones that I make myself, but I bought a large piece of leather so I use it.

And just when you think that you read enough, check out "unicorn" method

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?284611-Pm-v11-at-20*&p=3041413#post3041413
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do7FdOh6S9s

But, this is the conventional wisdom

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?205548-Plain-Stropping-Looking-for-Advice
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?242263-Troubleshooting-my-Strop-Stropping-Technique

I am excited that you had some good results!

[Curt Putnam]

Yes, You will want a strop as the final step. Some folks just scribble green compound on a piece of MDF or flat hardwood. Probably the cheapest approach and as good as any.

[Jim Matthews]

I glued a piece of saddle leather to a wooden scrap about 12" long, 5" wide.

It holds polishing compound for ages.

Other methods have also worked for me, but this is simple.

[Rob Luter]

.......You need that horse butt expensive one, right? OK, horse butt is supposed to be the best, but I make my own from a large piece of leather that I purchased.....

I've made strops from regular saddle leather and from horse butt. Both were random pieces purchased from a saddle maker. The horse butt is amazing stuff. It's harder to charge with compound but it's really hard leather and doesn't "give" like the vegetable tanned cowhide. I guess I prefer the horse if I get to choose.

[Jim Koepke]

It cut my arm hair and took some pretty thin shavings on scrap walnut and cherry.

[edited]

I do think, and somebody mentioned this on here previously, that I need another step after the hard black Arkansas Stone.

If you can comfortably shave arm hair there is no need for a strop. It could actually end up dulling it a bit from round over.

jtk

[Matt Lau]

If you can comfortably shave arm hair there is no need for a strop. It could actually end up dulling it a bit from round over.

jtk


Makes me wish I had arm hair....

Those Buck bros irons (the modern ones) suck. I'm impressed you were able to get those results! Kudos!
The other steel that drove me nuts was from my Grizzly Indian made hand planes.