Diamond or Ceramic?

[Nathan Johnson]

A sharpening thread...I know, I'm sorry, but paralysis by analysis and I need more internet opinions to confuse me further.

Ultimately, my question is this:
Will I get a better (and more durable?) edge sharpening with Shapton Pro or Glass than I would using diamond stones and stropping?
Maybe that's difficult to quantify?

Currently, I use a two-sided DMT duosharp 600/1200 and then strop, either with green compound on leather, or bare leather, or both. This is a small stone, and the recesses are super irritating on smaller chisels and such, so i want to get a set of stones after doing this for a while.
I have quite a bit of A2 to sharpen, and also PMV11, O1, and whatever Narex calls their metal.

I do not want to soak stones, so the Shaptons, either Pro or Glass are on the radar. But diamond stones would be less maintenance, so that's appealing. (I do have a coarse DMT diasharp already so would not need a flattening stone.)

The internet seems to indicate the Shapton glass stones work a bit better on A2 than the Pros. Maybe this is nonsense?

Anyway, help me spend my money.
A set of DMT stones or a set of Shaptons? Can I get the same edge quality with either, or is ceramic noticeably better?

[Jim Koepke]

Nathan, my comments should be taken for what they are, comments based on opinions or observations garnered from other posts.

In particular the recent post on the Cosman Sharpening method. In this method the work starts on a coarse diamond stone and finishes on a fine Shapton. My extrapolation from this is the water stone is better for finishing than any diamond stone, at least in Rob Cosman's world and apparently in the experience of others.

jtk

[Nathan Johnson]

Nathan, my comments should be taken for what they are, comments based on opinions or observations garnered from other posts.

In particular the recent post on the Cosman Sharpening method. In this method the work starts on a coarse diamond stone and finishes on a fine Shapton. My extrapolation from this is the water stone is better for finishing than any diamond stone, at least in Rob Cosman's world and apparently in the experience of others.

jtk

Yeah, that's kind of where I'm stuck a little bit. How much better is the edge off the 16k stone versus what I'm seeing from diamond/strop. Is it 10% better? 25%? Not noticeable? Impossible to quantify?

:)

[ken hatch]

A sharpening thread...I know, I'm sorry, but paralysis by analysis and I need more internet opinions to confuse me further.

Ultimately, my question is this:
Will I get a better (and more durable?) edge sharpening with Shapton Pro or Glass than I would using diamond stones and stropping?
Maybe that's difficult to quantify?

Currently, I use a two-sided DMT duosharp 600/1200 and then strop, either with green compound on leather, or bare leather, or both. This is a small stone, and the recesses are super irritating on smaller chisels and such, so i want to get a set of stones after doing this for a while.
I have quite a bit of A2 to sharpen, and also PMV11, O1, and whatever Narex calls their metal.

I do not want to soak stones, so the Shaptons, either Pro or Glass are on the radar. But diamond stones would be less maintenance, so that's appealing. (I do have a coarse DMT diasharp already so would not need a flattening stone.)

The internet seems to indicate the Shapton glass stones work a bit better on A2 than the Pros. Maybe this is nonsense?

Anyway, help me spend my money.
A set of DMT stones or a set of Shaptons? Can I get the same edge quality with either, or is ceramic noticeably better?

Nathan,

Neither are good for a durable edge, both will give a sharp edge with impressive "shine" but both systems leave steep sided and relatively deep scratches that are a locus for edge breakdown. One of the internet sharpening posters said something like, if a 16K stone is as fast as a 8K stone then it is a 8K stone no matter what the seller calls it. I expect those words are true. As the old truism goes there is no "free lunch" but there sure is a lot of marketing.

Almost any stone combination will get your cutters sharp, some faster than others, some will shine the steel to a mirror shine some do not, some will give better edge retention. BTW, shine is just for bragging, it has little to do with sharp or edge durability. Depending on the steel the best stones for sharp and durability are natural stones like JNATs or Ark.

Of course as with all things wood, YMMV.

ken

[Frederick Skelly]

I have both dmt and shapton. Over the last year, I find myself buying more shaptons (500 grit, 1000, 6000) and only using my dmt's for only heavy work like nick removal. But sharpening is a pretty personal thing, and this is just what works for me.

I sharpen A2 and O1 on all of them and dont notice a difference with the pros. (Maybe my tastes arent refined enough? :) )

Instead of buying a set, why not buy a shapton 1000 grit and see if it works for the way you sharpen?

Fred

[Phil Mueller]

Nathan, it often seems like I’m missing or needing something when it comes to sharpening. But, I’ve settled on my highest priorities and lived with the result. I hate the mess of anything that has to be soaked in water or oil, makes a slurry mess, running back and forth from the kitchen or bathroom for water and clean up, and no where to keep the mess in my small shop. Other than touch up on a strop, I’m just not going to go through this every time something needs touching up.

I think it’s best to use whatever set up will be convenient enough to use it often. That’s different for all of us.

I suppose I may be sacrificing some sharpness, but who knows. I moved to diamond stones and a ceramic finish stone with leather strop some time ago. Nothing but a spritz of water and off you go. Doesn’t take much space, minimal mess and gets things pretty darn sharp.

I’m even considering moving to just the two stones in the Cosman method. We’ll see.

[Jim Matthews]

I use a Coarse India and Medium Lily White Arkansas followed by power buffing (instead of a strop).

I do not use a power grinder. If you go with Cosman's method, a power grinder is integral.

I use a #400 Atoma plate to grind and reshape main bevels.

O1 is quickly honed this way.

Variants of PM V-11 take longer on the last two steps as the wire burr is tenacious.

A1 takes forever this way.


I recommend adding a Hard Arkansas stone, instead of a Shapton if you're avoiding water in the shop. Cosman recommends the Bora water additive which seems to inhibit rust formation - but I prefer WD40 as a lubricant.

(Full disclosure - I think I get my best edges from a set of Shapton Pro stones, but can't tolerate the mess.)

[David Bassett]

Nathan, you are struggling with the complexity of sharpening. (Too many options. Too many techniques. Too many opinions.) For a moment take it at its simplest. All you are doing is scratching away the dull bits of steel and then trying to even out those scratches into a smooth(er) surface.

The real complications creep in when you consider some abrasive particles won't scratch ("cut") some steels, or particles of the steels (carbides), well, if at all. With the options you are considering this shouldn't be a problem.

That leaves removing the scratches, which is basically the polish from your final grit. Like sandpaper including intermediate grits will save time on the final step, and sometimes time in total. Cosman's method seems to take the biggest jump, but he is only polishing the tiniest of micro bevels at the very edge so saves time by working very little surface. Lie-Niesen teaches a similar sequence, though with a smaller jump. Others advocate intermediate steps, polishing more surface, etc. The key in this respect is sticking with a single system until you become competent with it.

As far as you specific questions. I don't like the way diamond plates feel, I'd say changing is wise. :) (DiaSharp sucks less than DuoSharp, those gaps may help when flatten stones, but drive me nuts when sharpening, as you noted.) Also diamond scratches seem "harsher" than you'd get from a synthetic water stone, so going to a higher "grit" may be required to get an equivalent final surface. So switching to stones or adding a higher grit stone after your diamond plates seems to me to meet your goals. The suggestion to get a 1K stone to try is good. Maybe getting a 3K-6K stone to use between your current diamond plate and your strop would solve your major problem and be another way to experiment with stones.

Good luck.

[john zulu]

Ceramic as the bond with diamond will wore down as the adhesive fails over time. I generally use whetstone and I find it fast enough on all steel I am using, A2 to PMV11.

[Jim Koepke]

Yeah, that's kind of where I'm stuck a little bit. How much better is the edge off the 16k stone versus what I'm seeing from diamond/strop. Is it 10% better? 25%? Not noticeable? Impossible to quantify?

:)

This is something that everyone has to determine for themselves.

One first need a way to test sharpness. There are testing units made for this with consumable pieces of something to be cut to determine how much pressure is used to go through the test piece.

Simpler is to use one of the common tests used by other woodworkers. How a blade pushes through paper is one test. A blade has to be extremely sharp to push straight into a piece of paper at 90º. It takes a very sharp blade to penetrate even at lower angles.

Some like to shave arm hair as a test. Some consider this too dangerous. Shaving with a straight razor is also dangerous.

Carvers often check a gouge's blade sharpness by how clean it can cut across face grain.

A chisel or plane blade should be able to pare end grain cleanly in a soft wood like fir or pine:

447016

The real test of sharpness is if the tool is able to do the job neatly and efficiently:

447018

Note how the end grain has no separation or voids. A dull blade will tend to push the fibers apart before severing them.

jtk

[Curt Putnam]

IMO, regardless of medium, you want finish at a sub-micron level. LV's green compound is ~0.5 micron. The Sigma 13K stone is about 0.75 micron.
The top 3 DMT Diasharp bench stones are 9, 6, and 3 microns. The 8K stone @ 3 microns is a long way from being < 1 micron. So you are going to need a finishing step with diamond.

Read up on the unicorn method - it might alter your thinking.

[Nathan Johnson]

Fears confirmed: there is no Holy Grail.

Sad face.

(I do appreciate all the input.)

[Christopher Charles]

I'll only add that I have used the shapton ceramics for about 10 years in a shop that freezes frequently. Have the 1000, 5000, 13000(? it is light yellow) set with a diamond plate that Stu used to sell. I bought that set because it was well regarded, met my need for being able to freeze and be splash and go, and has helped keep me out of the sharpening worm holes since. Good luck!

[Rob Luter]

Nathan, my comments should be taken for what they are, comments based on opinions or observations garnered from other posts.

In particular the recent post on the Cosman Sharpening method. In this method the work starts on a coarse diamond stone and finishes on a fine Shapton. My extrapolation from this is the water stone is better for finishing than any diamond stone, at least in Rob Cosman's world and apparently in the experience of others.

jtk

I was the OP on the post Jim references above. An important takeaway for me was that the 1000 grit diamond plate is used to establish only the secondary bevel. I'll be adding an intermediate grit Shapton (4K or 6K) for secondary bevel maintenance. Using the 1K Diamond every time is overkill unless your edge is totally shot.


Yeah, that's kind of where I'm stuck a little bit. How much better is the edge off the 16k stone versus what I'm seeing from diamond/strop. Is it 10% better? 25%? Not noticeable? Impossible to quantify?

:)

I guess it depends how much you strop, or how long you want to strop. The 16K Shapton creates a mirror smooth tertiary bevel in just a few strokes. The same holds true for the back of the plane iron using the ruler trick. I've been very impressed in that regard


IMO, regardless of medium, you want finish at a sub-micron level. LV's green compound is ~0.5 micron. The Sigma 13K stone is about 0.75 micron. The top 3 DMT Diasharp bench stones are 9, 6, and 3 microns. The 8K stone @ 3 microns is a long way from being < 1 micron. So you are going to need a finishing step with diamond.

Read up on the unicorn method - it might alter your thinking.

The 16K Shapton is promoted as being .92 micron and produces an impressively smooth finish. I've also been hitting the edge with a horse butt strop charged with a little Flexcut Gold for a couple strokes as a last step. Does it really make a difference? Who knows? I will say my tools are sharper than they're ever been and I considered myself pretty good at sharpening prior to the change to the Cosman method.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

The internet seems to indicate the Shapton glass stones work a bit better on A2 than the Pros. Maybe this is nonsense?

This is some of what I have in my notes (I have lots of notes).


The Glass series is considered Softer and releases abrasive faster allowing them to cut faster. This is where the density difference comes in, the Glass stones are more dense than the pro stones making them seem harder yet still called "softer" because they wear quicker. (So does the glass dish faster? probably).

GlassStones were developed specifically for the US market based upon experience gained from the Pro Series. GlassStones differ in that they cut more quickly in the tougher steels such as cryogenically treated A2 common in Lie-Nielsen and Hock and Veritas blades. They are also engineered to be more economical by employing a glass base.

Next, I have detailed descriptions for each of the Professional stones, but will not take the space here. For the PRO stones, I own the 5K and the 8K stones. My first shapton was the 5K. I think that Derek Cohen dislikes the feel of the 5K stone.

Next comes my notes specifically on the Glass stones. If I were to paraphrase, yes, this is the better stone for the "high resistance" steels such as PMv11, A1, D1, and A2. Not from my notes, i think that the PRO stones was for the chefs and the glass stones was for the woodworkers. I have a table that lists the different glass stones and which application it is good for, but I have no easy way to create this table here. The chart is also available here:

https://jendeindustries.wpcomstaging.com/2009/10/21/shapton-stone-tutorial-part-1-introduction-to-the-shapton-pro-and-glass-series/

If you really want a dump of my random thoughts, let me know and I can directly email you a copy of my ramblings on sharpening stones.

Why do some people prefer to NOT finish with diamonds?

(opinion) Because diamonds are reputed to leave deeper scratches so you might have more of a tendency to have fracturing at the edge.

So, why use Diamonds? because they cut fast. Why use something else after? To smooth out those scratches and apparently other things do a better job of smoothing out those scratches.

The Shapton stones are very consistent for grit size.

It was suggested to me that by their nature, Arkansas and Washit stones have a tendency to polish as they cut because of the stuff other than the hard stuff that does the cutting. I believe that an Arkansas tone is greater than 99% Novaculite (Silicon Dioxide) and the specific gravity will tell you how tightly it is packed (I think). An interesting things about the Arkansas stones is that you can strongly the edge that it leaves by lapping the stone on something like loose carbide. I saw a demonstration where one of the finest arkansas stones was rubbed on different sides with different grits (probably silicon carbide) and I think it was 220 vs 600. Same stone and the different sides left different edges. One place was selling Washitas (years ago) with instructions on lapping your Washita on different sides for different edges. I would try it now, but it intimidated me at the time.

With something like a Shapton, you are pretty sure up front what you are getting. That said, I have a couple of Arkansas stones and they work just fine. The real question becomes, how will you "clean up that edge" for the final polish. David Weaver demonstrates going from a Washita to a strop to whisper thin shavings from his hand plane. I am not great with stropping. I should just hang with Steve and have him let me practice with him. I get a pretty amazing edge from my Shapton Glass 15K directly.

[Nathan Johnson]

Lots of detailed and thoughtful responses and it’s much appreciated.

Ultimately, my real goal was to drill down to an ideal and avoid experimentation with a bunch of different stones that would then sit unused once I found my preferred.
Perhaps this really isn’t possible when considering how deep the sharpening rabbit hole really is.

For now, I’ve decided to try a mixture of DMT DiaSharp and Shapton Pro stones.
In theory, I think this gets me closest to ease of use, least mess/maintenance, speed, and quality.
But, we’ll see…. I’ll probably end up with 35 stones in the shop in the end, right? :)

And now considering the question in the title, I guess the answer is Both.

[Jim Koepke]

But, we’ll see…. I’ll probably end up with 35 stones in the shop in the end, right? :)

That might not be enough. :eek:

jtk

[Nathan Johnson]

Fair point, Jim.
Fair point indeed.

[ken hatch]

That might not be enough. :eek:

jtk

Jim,

Ain't that the truth:o, I haven't counted but...

ken

[Will Blick]

> but paralysis by analysis and I need more internet opinions to confuse me further.

lol.... but it never hurts to hear the experience of others.. or be a dummy like me, and just buy everything and test it, but that is crazy expensive... some good tips above. Of course, there COULD be answers to all your questions if anyone ever took the time to test all this in a scientific manner...while u do find a few scientific tests in a few areas, which are fascinating, details of all your questions often come from trial and error or from other users.

Just some tips from my years of experience...

1) Match the stone to the Metal u are using. This is critical. Some stones cut certain metals better! LV suggests a specific brand of stone for PMV-11 as they have done lots of tests. I use Shapton HR stones with great results with PMV and A2. I sold off all my other stones as a result.

2) While the diamond plates are an impressive premise.... in my experience, they cost a fortune, cause they work great in the beginning and if treated right, stay flat. But they dull over time... I guess even diamonds wear when this small. Even my Shapton $400 fine diamond stone, I had to replace 3x already. Whereas the man made stones seem to last forever, but they require more man hours of maint. to keep em flat, so it depends on whether you have more time or more money.

3) If you elect the stone route, just remember, no matter how great the stone, or how great the metal, if the stone is NOT flat, u will not get a good edge...maybe in one area, but not another. Technique matters too, dont over do it... therefore, a large granite plate is a great investment, it is your true FLAT. you will need this to keep your flattening stones flat, or use it to flatten your high grit stones with fine grit paper.

5) I finally gave up on stropping... while this might be great for some tasks, I find for plane blades and chisels, which require ONE side sharpening and a flat back, a leather strop is too soft, and rounds over the edge a bit. Yes, u get a mirror like finish, but the edge gets a slight round over, which is counter productive. There is no strop grit that is not available in a stone grit, at least for ww sharpening values.

hoping this confused u even more ;)

[Will Blick]

Oh, and another general comment that is often overlooked and should always be mentioned, deserving of a separate post...

One mans sharp, is another mans dull...

Often we here of great results from one person, and poor results from another doing the same sharpening technique...

this is sometimes, due to, the wood u are working with, how fine of a cut u are trying to make and how obsessed you are with the cleanness of the cut. I have seen ww use plane blades and chisels that have gone un sharpened for a few years, and for their use on soft pine, its good enough for them... try that on some hard Walnut or Curly Maple and lets see a clean cut, no way....
I find, the harder the wood, the more complex the figure, the end result being final (i.e. no sanding), this is where hardcore sharpening tools, better metals, sharpening technique and sharpening intervals become a major factor.

This has also taught me just how valuable and effective sandpaper is for some planning tasks.... it can be as flat as a plane bottom if you build a flat holder, it can be square if you build a square holder for edge/end planning, and does not require constant sharpening. It also does not cause divets, tearout or plane tracks.

[Jim Koepke]

One mans sharp, is another mans dull...

In order to avoid such disparities there are a few sharpness benchmarks commonly used to evaluate a degree of sharpness.

See post #10 in this thread for a few of them.

Folks who use straight razors use a benchmark that is a step above what woodworkers aim to achieve.

jtk

[Will Blick]

agreed, most of us shave our arm hairs, slash paper, etc.
my point was... some people use a hand plane with a dull blade, and it can still cut, albeit very poorly, but they think its working great. Everyone has a different expectation, and that should greatly influence how in depth the sharpening program becomes. Not everyone is into extreme sharpness... I wish I could shake the super sharp bug...

[William Fretwell]

Nathan, to go back to your original question: diamond versus water stones. I’ve have both and much prefer water stones. Honing should be a few strokes, not the marathon it can be with diamond. Yes diamonds wear, stay flat and are expensive.

Water stones can be a progression of expense, you don’t need the most expensive. A 1200 then 4000 followed by green compound on leather will produce an edge most would consider very sharp. A simple set up improves your sharpening technique and is a modest cost.

Your biggest frustration may be re-establishing an edge on old or seriously chipped / worn blades. Add a water wheel at your leisure. At the top end a 10,000 stone adds refinement when you are ready.

The more expensive high grit stones last a very long time, lower grits a long time. Flattening can be an expense, plate glass and grit or up to a large CBN plate but is required or you will get frustrated.

A good loupe is very educational.

[Nathan Johnson]

This was never a question of can I get sharp, really. The 2-sided DMT and a strop allowed me to cleanly pare end grain, etc.
I don't like the 2-sided DMT for narrow tools because they catch in the holes.

So I knew I could get sharp with diamonds, but having not sharpened with other options I was curious if I could get significantly sharper with other options, but with minimal mess and maintenance. I figured it would be difficult to quantify and based on the responses, that seems to have held true.

Since I wanted diamonds to work I ordered the F, EF, and EEF DMT Diasharps. (I already had the coarse.)
They do work. I got sharp with these and a strop, but I didn't really like them. The EEF especially.
So I returned the F and the EEF.

And then I ordered Shapton Pros....1000/5000/8000/12000.
I like them. I have the coarse diamond stone to flatten, so it's more work to maintain, but they are much nicer to use. I was quite happy working through the grits on the Shaptons on my block plane blade.

I've also tried adopting Cosman's approach on a couple chisels now for edge refreshes. EF DMT (9 micron) and then tertiary on the 12k. Seems to work.

So, as i mentioned a few days ago...the answer wasnt one or the other. It was both. :)

(Oh, and i like the back of the blade prepped off the Shaptons much better than the diamonds too. So i have that going for me now, which is nice.)

[Nathan Johnson]

^ previous post not intended to sound arrogant. I am not a sharpening expert by any means.

The goal was to try and glean enough detail to settle on one set of stones and be done and not be left wondering if I should have tried something else instead. I don't have room to store 73 stones in my shop. :)

[ken hatch]

^ previous post not intended to sound arrogant. I am not a sharpening expert by any means.

The goal was to try and glean enough detail to settle on one set of stones and be done and not be left wondering if I should have tried something else instead. I don't have room to store 73 stones in my shop. :)

Nathan,

You may be asking the wrong question. Anything that abrades metal will get the tool sharp but sharpening is a classic example of a Venn Diagram. You can have Sharp, Fast, and Long Lasting, pick any two. Everyone wants a different balance. BTW, stone maintenance should be included in the Fast.

ken

[Nathan Johnson]

Nathan,

You may be asking the wrong question. Anything that abrades metal will get the tool sharp but sharpening is a classic example of a Venn Diagram. You can have Sharp, Fast, and Long Lasting, pick any two. Everyone wants a different balance. BTW, stone maintenance should be included in the Fast.

ken

See, Ken, I think this really is what I was driving at, but you summed it up succinctly and eloquently.
Somewhere in here also likely lies an individual's "feel preference" and, when included, muddies the waters even further.

Ultimately, what we need is a retail sharpening store with all the options available for customers to try side by side. :)

[David Bassett]

... Ultimately, what we need is a retail sharpening store with all the options available for customers to try side by side. :)

Won't work. (It'd be nice!) But the way we bitch & moan about how expensive stones & media are, how we scour Amazon for the cheapest 3rd party seller, the number of folks that search eBay for deals, (and the occasional zealot who uses Google translate and a shipping service to take advantage of domestic auctions in Japan,) there's no way a place could cover retail overhead and justify an extensive inventory.

Besides, once it was opened it'd be a really long drive for you get here! ;)


ETA: more seriously, a trade show or class is a good way to try alternatives. Usually not a wide selection, but something the vendor, craftsman, or teacher likes and is new to you. (E.g. Lie-Nielsen's roadshows will have a sharpening station with the waterstones they sell set up and available to try or for a lesson.

[Tom M King]

Have tried most things available, and to answer the original question, I have two reasons that I don't like diamond stones-they have no "feel", and don't last as long as you would think they would. I do use the diamond paddles for several things, and diamond lapping film for others, but my first comment was only for "stones", or plates.

[Will Blick]

David B, very valid points, unfortunately. Heck, if you wanted to buy a new track saw, and test out, Festool, Grizz, Makita, DW, Triton, Kregg and make a $1K buying choice right there on the spot for saw, blades, rails, etc, I doubt there is anywhere in USA where this would be possible. As you suggest, a trade show is your best hope. But unless u live in Vegas or Orlando, you will spend more on travel and hotel vs. the purchase price. This is our new modern reality. We all have reasons why we love and hate Amazon!

While these forums are helpful, it seems many people have forgotten that manufacturers and dealers often know more about these issues than forums. Why? Cause manufacturers like LV, LN, (and others) all experiment on ways to sharpen there blades, so they have more side by side experience vs. many forum contributors. Also, there is some great sharpening dealers who also do lots of side by side tests, such as sharpening supplies.com...speaking to them is also very valuable for specific issues as raised here.

I am glad others agree on how diamond stones fade way to quickly. Another product that seems perfect in so many ways, and it actually is, except for the non mention of wear and the cost to constantly replace the plates. Stones really are an amazing value and as good, or better than any sharpening method. There are exceptions, such as the VERY casual user, whereas a scary sharp, or granite or glass plate combined with papers can be much more cost effective vs. buying a lot of costly stones, holders, flatenning stones, etc. Other users are fine with just a grinder.

[Rick Erickson]

Just my take - as you said there is no Holy Grail. But, there are different methods that bring us all to very close to the same place - sharp enough. (Currently), I follow the Cosman approach to sharpening. I own several of the Shapton stones - all the way to 16K. I use 1K and 16K Shapton stones (no Diamond) for my day-to-day sharpening and am very happy with the results. I'm also a big fan of Paul Sellers - who is about as opposite from Cosman as a person can be in terms of tools/philosophy, etc. He uses Diamond/Strop, and one can't argue with his results. There are pros/cons to both methods. I've contemplated trying Sellers method. Not because my current method in inadequate - but just to learn/try something new. I guess my point is - pick the one you are comfortable with/can afford and master it. Both will get you to 'sharp enough' for woodworking.

[Jim Koepke]

I guess my point is - pick the one you are comfortable with/can afford and master it. Both will get you to 'sharp enough' for woodworking.

This is possibly the best advice to anyone seeking sharpening knowledge. That is also why it tends to show up in every discussion of sharpening methods.

Though in other versions of the same philosophy, any is used instead of both.

jtk

[Andrew Pitonyak]

This is possibly the best advice to anyone seeking sharpening knowledge. That is also why it tends to show up in every discussion of sharpening methods.

Though in other versions of the same philosophy, any is used instead of both.

jtk

Let me start by saying I strongly agree about that being fabulous advice... And either you got one thing wrong or I got one thing wrong.

Surely it is not by any rather than both, it's buy ALL

:-)

Have I been doing it wrong?