Texas home shops-separate meter HELP!

[Jim O'Dell]

Calling all Texas woodworkers that have separate meters to their shops. I need some advice before I say something (else) that I'll regret.
I thought this was going to be SO GREAT when the property we bought had separate service to the shop building. I've got it wired and ready to turn on, so I called TXU to get some power. They are trying to tell me that if this is not a residence, it has to be a commercial account, therefore commercial rates. Does anyone have any different information about this? This is strictly a hobby shop. In fact the covenants for our edition prohibit building a separate building that is for people to live in. Is my only solution to upgrade the seveice entrance to the house to 400 amps, and run the shop off the house's meter? That would be a big expense I'd rather not get involved in, but over time might be cheaper than paying commercial rates. Any information anyone might have, please let me know. I might just call a different service provider to hook up the shop through them and see if they will bill it as residential. Thanks! Jim.

[Kirk (KC) Constable]

Let me say that I rue the day I got a separate service to mine...even though I did it specifically to GET the commercial account (tax purposes). As it turns out, I'd be money ahead the other way...and now I can't very well get it changed. :mad: Further, LOML swapped the house account to Reliant, but they won't take my shop account without a deposit...and I won't give them a deposit just on principal. Also, of the eight months or so they've had the house, 6 billings have been 'estimated'....so the lower rates really haven't done squat because they're certainly not estimating from OUR prior useage. :mad:

When I build a new shop up by the house, I'm running a line off of the house 200A service. I'll never be using that much at one time even if we had everything in the house running along with the three or four things that may be on at any given time in the shop.

KC

[tod evans]

jim, i would go to the utility company in person and explain to a person face to face that you are pulling power for a hobby shop. it sounds as though you have been dealing with the typical phone person? remember you`re paying them and you expect service, so many times the employees think they are doing you a favor just by tolerating your presence. i`m certain there are umpteen hobby shops from wood to cars and welding outfits on the same grid and i doubt if the phone people strongarmed all of them into paying commercial rates........02 tod

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Jim......I'm with Tod on this. I had a separate meter installed on my new shop. I first got the runaround on the telephone. I went to the office talked with a person face-to-face. Then.............The people showed up to do the work.......I pay a minimun of $8.00 for my shop and it's at the same rate as my house. The $8 minimun is the only difference.

[Jim Becker]

A separate meter for my shop would also have had to been a Commercial or "General Purpose" account (separate) with higher rates than my home.

[Phil Phelps]

jim, i would go to the utility company in person and explain to a person face to face that you are pulling power for a hobby shop. it sounds as though you have been dealing with the typical phone person? remember you`re paying them and you expect service, so many times the employees think they are doing you a favor just by tolerating your presence. i`m certain there are umpteen hobby shops from wood to cars and welding outfits on the same grid and i doubt if the phone people strongarmed all of them into paying commercial rates........02 tod
You will never get into the building. Never. You can't pay a bill at the officies of any utility company in Dallas. Never.

[Cecil Arnold]

Jim, I think Ken and Tod are right, you need to work your way up the food chain, probably by phone. KC reminded me how great deregulation is, don't you just love it. And Ken, tick, tick, tick.

[Jim O'Dell]

Thanks for the quick replys, guys. I am taking Friday afternoon off, basically to get back at the guy I work with for taking off last Friday and making me work late on my early day off without any prior notice I might add, so I could run to their office if I can find it. :rolleyes:
Yes, Todd, I was on the phone. Although I think a string and a couple tin cans would have given me the ability to hear them more easliy. They must have a really cruddy phone system. Got transferred to the commercial accounts with the notion that they could change from commercial account to residential, then that person said if it is not a living quarters, it has to be commercial. Makes no sense to me, but I'll see what they say face to face. Although I fear I'll get really upset with them if I get someone who asks me 5 times if this is a separate building from the house, like the 3 different people on the phone have each done today. I think they must be trained in the run around to get you to say yes. Ken, if the commercial account was the same rate, but with a minimum, no problem. But I believe here the amounts are a lot higher, and TXU was already awarded a 23% increase that is to take effect later this month.
Anyway, thanks again for the suggestions. I'll let you know how it goes. Jim

[Phil Phelps]

Let me explain the THEFT in Dallas by the 'letric company. For 52 years, we had the same meter at the shop. It was a commercial account. I was upgrading and, because I could get some good deals on three phase equipment, I submitted to the 'letric company my request. It seemed to take forever, but I got the 3 phase and the electrician put in the new panel. My bills immediately tripled. Here's the way it works. It is now called a Demand Meter. Why? Because all the electricity you need is at your demand. I'm not makin' this stuff up. Next, you are allowed 10 on your magic meter. They say that the first 10 is "free". After that, the ratchet system kicks in. If you used, say 19 the first month, 28 the next month, 31 the next month, but 11 the next month, you'll pay 80% of your highest bill. That would be 31. You are locked in to the highest rate you use for that year. Say you pulled the switch after 31 and took off for eight months. You'll pay 80% of 31 for the entire year, even though you don't use one killowatt hour. I did a lot of bidness in Feb. of last year and my meter was way up. I paid a whopping amount for Apr. and May even though I didn't use squat in electricity. I pay $159 to run flourescent lamps. And you'll get nowhere with them either. I've spent hours talking to reps that have pat answer cue cards.

So, run it as a residence or from your house.

[Don Baer]

Don't tell em it's a shop. Tell em it a seperate guest house or a Mother in Law Cottage..

:D

[Allen Bookout]

What a rip! If you don't get anywhere soon it might be a good idea to contact an attorney. Believe me, they will start talking as soon as they see that you are serious. You may not win but they will at least take notice.

In the 1970 I had a seperate shop from my house in Jacksboro, Texas and both had residential rates but as someone said deregulation is a WONDERFUL thing. HA!!!! Just look at the airlines.

From time to time I think about moving back to Texas but with that kind of attitude I think that I will just stay put.

Allen

[Ken Garlock]

Hi Jim. We are located in Collin County, west of McKinney. The electric company is GCEC, Grayson Collin Electric Coop. When we built, I had a separate meter installed for the shop. The shop electric rate is the same as for the house, currently 10 cents per KWH. I had to pay an extra one-time charge for the extra underground service from the pole to the meter box eventhough the ditch had already been dug. I don't remember the exact amount, but it seems that it was in the order of $700. Because it is a meter that is read, I get two electric bills. We also had them install a sodium night light on the pole. The light costs a flat $6.50/month.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

I had a similar problem when I lived outside Floresville. I had to deal with an electric co-op and let me tell you what a PITA they are to deal with. First, they want deposits, large deposits. Then they want to inspect your house. If you have a gas source on the property (even a 40lb propane bottle), they charge you higher rates because you don't have an all electric house. Then, they will not provide two meters to the same address unless you are zoned for multi family housing or charge commercial rates. It wast he most frustrating thing I have ever encountered. When it comes down to the bottom line, they are governed by a local board which is elected by the rate payers. The unpaid board makes the rules which really means the rate payers make the rules. Its difficult to find anyone who receives a salary to make a decision.

[Carl Eyman]

In my part of Louisiana it is the same. I pay the small commercial rate for my shop. The elected officials lean on the utilities to give residences a break so when the utility can return the favor and get their full rates, they do. The only time I have seen the utility foiled was a friend that parked a travel trailer in a warehouse. got utilitirs hooked up on a residential rate, and then pulled out the trailer. But then I always did think he was a natural born con-man

[Bart Leetch]

Heck just get a 10 KW genset & laugh at them.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I will never switch from running out of the house box. I was told that I would face what you are if I tried and the whippin' ain't worth it to me. I certainly can't take the hit on the bill. I sold my 1023s and went back to a 110v Delta to avoid a SNAFU upgrading the shop wiring and feed[s].

You can run your shop just fine with 200 amp box and a feed from there to the shop to another 200 amp box. Just make sure you use 2 & 4 guage wires for the feed.

[Jim O'Dell]

Some of you guys are not helping me at all!!!:D :D Bart you may have the best idea yet. I might just look into a generator. I could run it off porpane (all electric here) and be able to use it as power back up for the house. We do have a lot of power interuptions, but usually just for a few hours. What would I need to run three 5 hp motors at the same time? :eek: (Clear Vue cyclone and future stationary compressor and TS) I actually may have to look at the cost and problems for running underground conduit and cable from the house to the shop. My problem is the there is a tree in the direct path, and others in the vicinity. Man this stinks. I thought I had all the hard part behind me... Jim.

edit Just went out and stepped it off. About 100' from the ground at the meter on the house to the nearest corner of the shop without going through concrete. That would have to be about 315' of cable plus conduit plus digging the trench (hmmmmm wonder if the dogs would like a side job...they already do some recreational digging and relandscaping) I could easily see this going to a $1000 minimum, that's with me digging the trench by hand. Guess I shouldn't kill myself with the mind games until I can talk with them Friday.

[Cecil Arnold]

Jim, 2 words for digging, "ditch witch". If you have 200 amp service can't you just drop a 100 amp sub panel off the main house service and avoid the hastle? Lights, TS, and DC should only pull something in the range of 30-40 amps, even if you are all electric you should have enough excess capacity it seems.

[Rob Will]

Sounds too nice for my mother-in-law.
I think Don's on the right track.
We have the same problem here.
:D :D :D

Rob

[Howard Barlow]

Contact the PUC and find out if they can do that, legally.

[Barry O'Mahony]

A separate meter for my shop would also have had to been a Commercial or "General Purpose" account (separate) with higher rates than my home.Same here. I have a second 200A meter for the shop, with feeders to the well pump, and the barn. This service actually pre-dates the shop, and has always been a "general purpose" account. I don't see the big deal here; that meter uses far less power than the house meter does, so if the rate is a little higher it's no big deal. Of course, electricity here is the cheapest in the country. OTOH, I'm always amazed at how cheap the gas prices are in TX whenever I visit, so maybe it all evens out.

[John Hemenway]

So what's the problem? It's a living space! You are alive when you are in there so it's a living space.

It's not a workshop, it's a rec. room, it's not a workshop, it's an entertainment center! :) You just need lots of power because you have the mother of all big screen tv's and a killer THX sound system. When it's all powered up it can sound exactly like a woodworking shop. :)

Politicans redefine reality all the time, I don't see why we can't, also.

Good luck.

[tod evans]

jim, you can always install "double lugs" at the meter and pull your house from one side and the shop from the other.....no new meter required, two separate panels, one bill?

[Howard Barlow]

I don't see the big deal here; that meter uses far less power than the house meter does, so if the rate is a little higher it's no big deal.

Not so. My dad had a pump station with 2 50 hp motors on a demand meter. Whatever the highest kw pull was hit, that was the rate he paid for the month. During the winter rainy season, he paid a $250 minimum even if the pumps never turned on.

[Jim Becker]

Same here...

Barry, in my case it will actually work out better that I didn't split the service. We are now planning a 1500 sq ft two-story addition to the house that will bump up the living space power requirements with the addition of a second HVAC system, etc. Right now, I have 200 amps split to the house and 200 amps split to the shop building from a 400 amp service entrance. (We originally were going to make the upstairs to the shop into living space for my office, etc.) When we do the addition, I'll down-rate the shop to 100amps, which is more than sufficient, allowing more amperage to be available in the calculations for the addition to stay within code. I never did get far enough to find out if the general purpose service would "escallate" in cost as some have posted.

[David Duke]

Some of you guys are not helping me at all!!!:D :D Bart you may have the best idea yet. I might just look into a generator. I could run it off propane (all electric here) and be able to use it as power back up for the house.

Better rethink this option Jim, I just installed a 15kw standby generator, (compliments if hurricane Rita) and propane costs are how shall I say this.......DA@@ expensive; 2-3 gallons per hour to run at a present cost of 2.05 per gallon would eat into the lumber budget :eek: :eek: .

I will say this though the generator was something I have been wanting to get and it sure is nice during to all too frequent power outages.

[Barry O'Mahony]

Howard,

I was speaking of my own case. Our well is just for household use (no ag irrigation) and is only 2 HP.

Jim,

If I was starting with a "clean slate" today, I'd go with a 400A Service at the house, and run the shop, etc. off a feeder. Thanks to the "McMansion" trend, 400A Services are no longer "esoteric". You can even get the meter base at the BORG here now. But I had no desire at the time to trench across the lawn and driveway, while trying to avoid the sprinkler pipe, septic drainfield, phone wiring and water pipe already down there.

[Jim O'Dell]

Thanks everyone. I posted this hoping someone in Tejas had run into this and found a workable solution to get around it. If I had to run a line from the house, it would delay my getting into the shop by at least another year because of the expense, so that really isn't a viable solution. BUT the electric company doesn't know that!! I'm hoping that I can find someone there with some reasoning ability to see that the best solution is to make this billed out at the same rate as the house. If not I may look at Atmos, or Reliant to see what they would do in this situation, then decide if the increase for TXU is worth it or not. I had hoped that I could have the lights on by this weekend to do some cleaning and a little work, get my TS and DP out of the garage and in place to really see about tool location. Maybe clean the garage and reorganize that mess....Nah.
Howard, that is a good idea about contacting the PUC for legality issue. I'll look on the internet to see if there is a way to do that on line.
David, what kind of engine is in that beast you got????:eek: that's a lot of fuel consumption. LOML and I have talked about a generator several times, and we need to get a small unit, big enough to keep the fridge and freezers working, and maybe enough to work the microwave. We live on a street that is at the back of our subdivision, separated by a creek. There are only 10 houses back here and only one way in...across the creek. Though the creek is dry now, 1 1/2 years ago right before we moved in, the water was over the concrete bridge a couple of times, even ripped the asphalt topcoat off. If we lost power during one of those events, we would lose a lot of food.
Thanks again! I'll let you know which way I end up going. Jim

[Steve Rowe]

Jim - it is the same deal in Arkansas. If you have a second meter, it will be commercial. I ended up running 400 amp service to the house and splitting off with two disconnects. One to the house and the other to the shop. For my situation, I ran about 70 ft of cable in conduit underground to the shop. In the long run, this is a less expensive alternative.

[Kurt Voss]

Jim, I went through the same issue 2 years ago with TXU - doesn't seem to be anyway around it - the 2nd meter is commercial. So I did as others have suggested here already, ran 3/0 wire the 75' from the house meter to a subpanel in the shop. I just priced Al 3/0 for another project and it's currently 0.54/ft - way lower than Cu at the moment. Another option is look around for salvage cable - just need to make sure there aren't nicks in the insulation. Good luck with this!

[Jim O'Dell]

Thanks for the posts. I don't think I can handle the wait for the $'s to do the split off the house meter. I'm working with basically what amounts to an extension cord. I'm using hand power tools ok, but have to go to the real garage for the TS and DP. I've had tools in the shop, that need 220, since last May that haven't even been fired up yet. I mean, MM band saws are nice to look at (even my lowly E16) but I need to learn how to use it.:o The mobility kit has been stored in the spare bedroom so long that the bolts to mount the wheel bar to the base are missing. LOML knows nothing about it:confused: :confused:
I received an email from an earlier inquiry to TXU, this evening when I came home. Says the same thing you just stated, Kurt. I emailed back asking for the price difference if any per kwh. Can't find it listed on their web site. Maybe I can live with that for a while, and do the other method later when some dollars show back up. Then just cancel the commercial service.
But this will all have to wait at least another week. I came home to a water leak at the meter yesterday. Water company out to look at today...spraying out a PVC section...the first piece that is our responsibility. :( :( So the time I was going to take off tomorrow and work on getting electrical is now going to be spent playing plumber. (our regular plumber can't get here before Tues or Wed) Guess we'll see if I can fix this, or if I make a bigger mess out of it than it already is!!:D Have a great Friday and an even better weekend! :cool: Jim