Skew pointers requested

[Scott Winners]

I have stepped up my skew handling from scraping to shearing. I thought I was doing great until I broke out some sandpaper.

My latest greatest turning is a beautifully straight grained piece of Ash, still over sized, future replacement handle for my framing slick.

I got it round with my big gouge, and then tried to make a smooth cylinder by shearing with the skew. I got some undulations in the surface that I know are technique, watched some more youtubes.

When I hand sanded with 220 grit by hand, with the grain, it made the surface much rougher. 400 grit (by hand, with the grain) made the surface a little smoother. Frowny face, I started with 1000 grit and high expectations, off the lathe the cylinder felt really smooth.

Should I focus on technique, or focus on both technique and getting my skew more sharper? I have been using the Rob Crosman technique where the bevel rides on the cylinder and then he twists the trailing edge of the chisel down into the work.

If I am happy with smoothness off the lathe chisel do I still have to sand because of something that will hapen to the wood later? Anticpated finishes are BLO, thinned BLO, soap, maybe shellac, sometimes paint, sometimes plant oil and wax.

I am buying kiln dried stock only and running out of material seasoned in the house >1 year to practice on, not fooling with green wood any time soon. FWIW looking forward I expect to mostly be making spindles from domestic hardwoods, maple, beech, ash, red oak, white oak, hickory, maybe walnut, possibly birch. White oak kicked my butt, beech and ash were nice, hope to try maple this weekend.

Thanks

[tom lucas]

Undulations are usually too much pressure. Shearing angle will matter for the best finish. As will the sharpness of your skew. What helped me the most was watching Allan Batty's videos. They are old, but he is a master.

[John K Jordan]

Scott,

First, congratulations on working on the skew! Some people seem to be intimidated. When I teach beginners, even those who have never seen a lathe before, the first tool in their hand is the skew. It usually doesn't take 15 minutes before they are making planing cuts. I've had several tell me later the skew is their favorite tool!

Spiral undulations down the spindle are often the result of too much pressure, especially pressure of the heel of the bevel against the wood. (This assumes sharpening on a wheel to give a slightly concave bevel - sharping to give a perfectly flat bevel works works with a slight difference.)

People often say "ride the bevel" but lately, more have been describing it as "gliding" the bevel, barely touching if at all. If you cut a small irregularity on one pass, say a tiny ridge in one spot, if the heel of the bevel is pressing against the wood when it hits that spot it can affect the cut at the edge. This can get worse with every pass until you have a mess!

I do two things to avoid this. One is support the back of the spindle with my left hand, holding the skew in my right hand. I use my left thumb against the back of the skew to help guide the cut. These are not great photos but show the idea:

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This works especially well on thin spindles. (Send me a PM or email if you are interested in my handout, a bit dated now, but perhaps useful)

To answer one question, there is no need to sand if the cut is clean enough! Here's an example - I used 600 and finer 600 grit paper for the ebony finial but the one from holly didn't need any sanding at all. I can't always cut that cleanly but I keep trying.

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When I sand spindles I first hold a strip of paper against the wood while rotating, then stop the lathe and sand by hand along the grain. For small coves it's difficult to sand with the grain so I usually roll a bit of sandpaper into a fairly tight tapered cylinder then sand (with the lathe off) at a slight angle such that the cylinder fits the curve of the cove.

Razor sharp is necessary! I sharpen on a 600 grit CBN wheel then remove the wire burr by honing. For honing skews I rub polishing/honing compound on the surface of a piece of MDF roughened by resawing it on the bandsaw. Hold the bevel flat against the surface, lift the heel ever so slightly off the surface, and draw the skew back for a few inches while pressing hard. I rehone several times as the skew dulls before going back to the CBN wheel. I've tried many techniques over the years but this works best for me!

The included angle of the skew also makes a difference. I find that larger included angles, such as 45-deg, are more forgiving, especially for beginners, but don't cut nearly as well as a smaller included angle, say 30-deg or less. The small bevel angle cuts easier and cleaner but takes a little more practice.

The shape of the edge can make a difference. In one of his books Richard Raffan promoted the curved edge and more flexible and easier to control. For a straight edge, the angle relative to the edge of the shaft can make a difference, mostly in the way the edge is presented to the wood and how easy it is to hold the tool comfortably and move it smoothly. For most cuts, having the edge about 45-deg or so to the axis of the work is best, the sweet spot. More "flat" (with the edge closer to parallel to the axis) can smooth out high spots but too much can cause control problems. Too "steep" makes it difficult to make a smooth cut and makes the cut more difficult as the angle increases. One problem I often see with beginners is if they stand in one spot and move their arms the edge angle may start out perfect but they move the tool in an arc and the angle gets way off by the end of the arc! This, of course, is eliminated by the stance and moving the body with the legs, keeping the arms/hands in a consistent position all the way down the spindle.

As for wood, I only turn dry, many domestic but also some exotics. I prefer fine-grained wood like cherry or holly and the harder the better - dogwood is one of my favorites! If you take a road trip to Tennessee sometime (I know, it's a bit of a drive!) I'll send you home with a box of spindle blanks. For years I've been processing green wood into turning blanks, large and small, on the bandsaw and putting them up to dry. I must have thousands of spindle blanks on hand - all woodturning visitors leave with wood. :)

If you have a decent bandsaw and haven't tried this, I can highly recommend it. Small blanks can dry amazingly fast. Process a few every so often and eventually you'll have more wood than you can ever use. I found that in our turning club many people didn't know how to go about cutting log sections into turning blanks safely so I started offering a little class - it's on hold until this horrible virus is kicked but before then there was always a waiting list for the class!

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Sometimes you run into an amazing log!

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JKJ

[David Walser]

Scott -- John has given you some excellent advice. Rob Cosman's 'technique' works. It's the way virtually any successful planing cut is made with a skew. So, in my mind, it's not so much a technique but a method of teaching how to make the cut. I've heard several others use the same description in teaching how to use the skew. For some turners, maybe even most, this teaching method works very well. They 'get it' fairly quickly. (Usually, this comes with in-person instruction.) Others need more. For this I'll second the recommendation of Allan Batty's video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfeLAHQSbqk&t=1s. It's very dry, but Allan explains by how the skew cuts and how to use it properly.

I also recommend the instructional videos made by Brian Havens. Here is a link to his video on making a planing cut with a skew: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cADbgJYeN-k. Brian has several other videos on how to make different types of cuts at the lathe, using skews, gouges, and scrapers. All are worth viewing.

Even better to all of these videos would be to get together with an experienced turner.

Good luck!

[Scott Winners]

Thanks for the tips so far. I do have Mr. Batty's skew video cued up on youtube.

I did resharpen my skew this morning and made two more cylinders today, one of hickory and one of maple.

My included angle measures 43 degrees parallel to the body of the tool, and 38 degrees perpendicular to the edge. I left that alone and honed on a finer stone; that included seems to be in the ballpark for n00bs and not contributory.

What I am seeing is I can do work that is satisfactory to me over a 2 or 3 inch span, but my spindles are 19 inches. So I have to figure out how to move my pelvis down the spindle without making breaks in the spindle surface. I can't lean the 19 inches, tried that, I am going to have to move my feet. Hopefully Mr. Batty has had that problem before.

For now I will keep practicing on my three biggest cylinders until they get down to the diameter of the smallest one. Then I will either take on tapering or make another practice cylinder.

[Reed Gray]

The humps and dips can be from tool technique, but most of the time, it is because you are moving the tool more with your arms rather than using your whole body. As Eileen Duncan, former AAW board member says, 'Dance with the lathe'. This means go through the side to side movement a couple of times without actually cutting, then turn on the lathe and cut. I generally get a smoother surface with peeling cuts than I do with a bevel rubbing cut. Then, as a martial arts instructor said to me, '10,000 more times!' But Teacher, that is what you said last time. 'Well then, 10,000 more times!' Practice! That sliding the tool back and forth across most of the length of the tool rest, in a smooth even pattern is the key.

robo hippy

[John K Jordan]

...What I am seeing is I can do work that is satisfactory to me over a 2 or 3 inch span, but my spindles are 19 inches. So I have to figure out how to move my pelvis down the spindle without making breaks in the spindle surface. I can't lean the 19 inches, tried that, I am going to have to move my feet. Hopefully Mr. Batty has had that problem before.
For now I will keep practicing on my three biggest cylinders until they get down to the diameter of the smallest one. Then I will either take on tapering or make another practice cylinder.

Scott, Two or three inches is a bit short! You may never be able to cut the entire 19" (for one thing you would need a very long tool rest!) in one pass but you should easily be able to make a pass 8 or 10" long without straining anything! It is easy for me to show the method I use in person but hard to describe in words. But I'll try!

What I do (and teach) is to first stand where I can comfortably hold the tool perhaps 3/4s of the way down my intended cut (or a little further). I stand with feet maybe 18" apart (and for the case of cutting from left to right), my left foot almost pointed towards the lathe and my right foot angled some for good balance, knees slightly bent. Then I bend my left knee more while moving my body to the left about as far as I can to where my left knee is straight. All of this is while holding the tool with my arms basically "locked" into a good cutting position. At this point, if the tool is not where I want to start the cut without moving my arms I'll shuffle my feet a little so the starting point feels right. It helps then, especially when practicing, to first practice making the entire move without the tool touching the wood! The idea is to never swing the arms and never lean - all the motion is in the legs and knees. Simply straighten the bent knee and bend the straight knee and the body will move nicely! The practice move gives you a good idea of how long of a continuous cut you can expect in one pass.

The motions are the same if planing from right to left. Some people switch hands with the tool to mirror the other direction (this is good to practice) and some people just flip the tool and go the other way. I don't switch hands if I'm using the method of holding the skew in my right hand but I do change what I do with my left. I've put the other picture, left to right, here also for comparison.

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It really helps to have a second person watch. When learning, it is far too easy to concentrate on doing what it takes to make the perfect shaving at the edge and forget to keep the arms "locked" and the body moving. The way I hold the tool makes it difficult to accidentally swing my arms.

BTW, by "locked", I don't mean tensing the muscles, locking the joints, and using a death grip on the tool. The hands and arms and shoulders should be relaxed. If holding the skew in two hands, my left hand holds the shaft right at the tool rest so the hand can glide down the rest and guide the tool. My right hand holds the handle and my left elbow (or the part of my forearm near the elbow) is pressed firmly against my side. (Note that a long handle is not needed on a skew or any spindle tool - it might just get in the way. Expert Frank Penta showed me a rack of spindle tools made in the style of professional spindle turners in the "trades" - I don't remember any over about 8" in length, some shorter.) When I use my left hand as a guide (and steady rest for thin spindles) I hold the skew entirely in my right hand, usually gripping the shaft at place where my right hand can glide along the tool rest. I press the end of the handle up against the underside of my right forearm and again, press my right elbow against my side. This tends to keep the tool aligned correctly to the work and prevents swinging the arms while gliding down the work.

This is so easy for a second person to watch and correct. For a typical student, I might have to verbally correct many times before the entire motion starts to become habit. If I see them swinging their arms I'll stop them and have them look at how much the angle of the edge has changed - I might even draw a line on the practice spindle to show how much their edge has changed from their swing.

One thing I should point out - when teaching the skew to beginners (or remedial skew turning to expert bowl turners!) I always start them out with a blank I've already turned into a smooth cylinder. I start with the lathe turned off and show them how to present the tool to the wood. Then I turn the lathe by hand while they experiment until they get a good shaving. Then, still turning by hand, we work on moving down the spindle - usually from right to left. When that is understood, I turn the lathe on at it's slowest speed, less than 50 RPM. They practice planing cuts until the blank gets a little rough, then I turn it down smooth and they have another go. It doesn't take long for most to get the hang of things! As they get more comfortable, I inch the lathe speed up until before they know it they are turning at close to 3000 rpm! The whole process usually doesn't take longer than about 15 minutes, sometimes less. I have them gradually reduce the diameter of the practice blank (with me re-smoothing if the surface gets out of control) and perhaps put a second blank up for more practice. When they have the hang of planing, I introduce the spindle roughing gouge and let them start with a square blank. After enough planing practice we start on making v-grooves, then a few beads, then move to the spindle gouge. I've done this for years, many dozens of times, and have never had a student get a catch with the skew chisel with this method.

It does helps to have a long tool rest. I like the 15" Robust rest for long spindles. Some people buy or make a very long rest, long enough to span the entire work. However, part of the practice is in seamlessly picking up the cut and continuing down the work. Here is one of the longest spindles I've turned - a handle for my favorite shuffle hoe!

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I turn a lot of "magic" wands which are largely thing spindles. The 15" rest will nicely span the entire blank so I don't have to move the rest. But moving it should be expected at times. These are about 24" long, tapering from about 1/2" down to about 1/16", walnut and shelving pine from Home Depot. I made them to demonstrate turning thin spindles.

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BTW, I don't use or even have a steady rest, I control the vibration on thin spindles with what I call the "left hand steady rest." With this method the fingers of the left hand lightly supporting the spinning wood from the back, balancing the pressure of the tool while dampening any vibration. I learned this from a Richard Raffan book many years ago. He had some good advice - if your fingers get too warm that means the pressure you are applying with the tool is too much!

Note that I don't even try to turn a long taper or cylinder in one pass - I find it a lot easier to do lots of short, overlapping, passes. When I get to the end I'll feel down the piece with my finger to judge where it is too thick and make cuts in that area until it's right. I've heard demonstrators say, usually when bowl turning, it is the mark of an expert to make a single perfect pass down the entire length of the cut. Almost no one can do this! I think the real skill is in learning how to seamlessly pick up a cut in the middle of the piece!

(sorry this is so long - I get carried away easily...)

JKJ

[Scott Winners]

I think I am up on this horse now. Probably a single hour in person instruction could have got me to where I am, but my three pronged approach has worked. I have been practicing about every day, and watching videos and been in and out of this thread.

The three things that were slowing me down were too dull a chisel, too much hand pressure on the tool and too slow rotation speed. As I got the skew sharper, relaxed my grip and brought up the lathe speed my cuts got better and better. Blending the next planed surface into the last planed surface is clearly the way to go, but I can do about eight inches continuous now.

One thing that helped me look at the back of the spindle was stopping the lathe in the middle of a cut so I could clearly see off cut height next to the skew is NOT the same as cut depth. Once I saw with the lathe stopped that I could ignore the height of the offcuts piling up at the leading edge of the cut and just focus on the diamter of the spindle I was cutting into and the diameter of the cylinder I was leaving behind things started moving for me much faster.

Thanks for all y'alls pointers, you have been one leg of a three legged stool with in person instruction not currently available.

[John K Jordan]

...I could ignore the height of the offcuts piling up at the leading edge of the cut and just focus on the diamter of the spindle I was cutting into and the diameter of the cylinder I was leaving behind things started moving for me much faster.


Yikes, I don't understand this at all. What are "offcuts piling up at the leading edge of the cut"? Are these shavings that somehow don't instantly fly free with the rotation?

If so, I've never experienced that except in two cases:
- one, if the cutting edge was almost perpendicular to the axis of rotation instead of about 45-deg, in which case the cut is usually not good;
- or two, for the little-used special case of cutting with the "short point" (the lower point) of the edge contacting the wood, instead of cutting somewhere in the middle of the edge.

(Well, also when turning acrylic but that's a different story! And has a special solution.)



The three things that were slowing me down were too dull a chisel, too much hand pressure on the tool and too slow rotation speed. As I got the skew sharper, relaxed my grip and brought up the lathe speed my cuts got better and better. Blending the next planed surface into the last planed surface is clearly the way to go, but I can do about eight inches continuous now.


I think speed is something I forgot to mention. For relatively small diameter spindles (say less than 2" or so) I turn up the speed to as high as it will go, over 3000 RPM on my larger lathes. Maybe slower for large diameter, but I don't do too many of those.

I think I also forgot to mention my favorite books. Although I have a bunch of woodturning books (it's a weakness), I basically learned woodturning from two books:
"Turning Wood" by Richard Raffan
"Fundamentals of Woodturning" by Mike Darlow

By necessity, even the best YouTube video on turning can't contain but a small fraction of the information in one of these books. Both of these have great instruction on the skew.

I've actually bought extra copies of both of these books to loan to beginners.
Both have numerous other books as well.
Raffan's books on turned boxes and bowls, are also especially good.
Darlow is a more technical writer which causes some people's eyes to glaze over, but as a beginner I got a lot from him.
I still often reference both of these as well as others.

JKJ

[Thomas Wilson80]

I'll second JKJ's recommendation of books. As a beginner I've found Raffan's "Turning Wood" very useful, though sometimes it is hard to visualize methods that he describes and that's where good youtube videos help out. I love Brian Havens' videos and specifically for the skew found Alan Lacer's videos the most helpful, FWIW. Good luck and happy turning!

Tom

[Reed Gray]

I saying I have used for a long time came from an old black and white move about Cyrano de Bergerac, famous swordsman and ladies man... He disarmed a student and then said, "Hold the sword as you would a bird. Too tight and you kill it. Too loose and it flies away." This applies to just about every tool we use. I even saw some one on the Roy Underhill show use the same quote.

robo hippy

[John K Jordan]

I saying I have used for a long time came from an old black and white move about Cyrano de Bergerac, famous swordsman and ladies man... He disarmed a student and then said, "Hold the sword as you would a bird. Too tight and you kill it. Too loose and it flies away." This applies to just about every tool we use. I even saw some one on the Roy Underhill show use the same quote.


He probably never tried to hold an adult peacock! You risk getting your face bashed in with the wings just catching it then it takes a powerful grip with both arms to hold onto it. Even then the claws on the feet can draw blood! :) (My method involves getting it into a corner then approaching hiding behind a blanket stretched out in front of me - gotta go slow then suddenly be real quick.)

But I agree - too tight a grip and too much tension in hands, arms, shoulders and even neck can be counter productive. I remember one student, a big strong guy, never could quite get the hang of relaxing. He didn't realize he was tensing up even with repeated reminders!

A good demonstration of how much force it takes is to make a longish cut, spindle or bowl, holding the tool handle between just the thumb and forefinger and guiding the tool with just one finger of the other hand.

JKJ

[Scott Winners]

I'll keep going as long as you guys are pitching in. I do appreciate it.

I got four pulley choices on my lathe, 1750rpm motor,
low speed (all millimeters) 27 mm diameter sheave to 75 mm diameter pulley = 630 rpm
2nd gear, 35 mm sheave, 65 mm pulley, 942 rpm
3rd, 65:35 = 3250 rpm - this is where I am getting my best shearing skew cuts in hardwoods
75:27 = 4860 rpm - not going to try that again soon

My messiest area remaining is in the maple, I got a bit of fiddle back on one side but straight grain all the way through and no fiddle back on the opposite side. It's about 1.75" diameter. I can't really see whats going on at 3250 rpm, but I suspect the fiddle back area is a little harder or tougher than the plain grain so my chisel wants to come outof the cut as it enters the fiddleback area. I made my best yet cut in the area just tonight, but I still have some tear out. So pic one is the maple.

Second pic if I can keep them in order is the chip pattern on my skew, and the fuzzies that don't really tell my how deep my cut is. I am using (I think) the bottom third to bottom half of the edge to keep the toe from digging in. Both Rob Cosman and Allen Batty were all about preventing digs, using the bottom third to bottom half of the edge and both of them generally had some fuzzies during their cuts. I guess I will look again, sounds like John Jordan doesn't make fuzzies.

Third and fourth are the burn marks on my skew after about two minutes of turning. The wider black band was riding on the wood, the more narrow black spot was the upper bevel of the edge during the cut. I ran it maybe two minutes (?) at 3200 rpm, total lathe time including taking numerous bad pictures that don't make the cut into this thread was under ten minutes.

At 300 grit I had all the black gone in 12 strokes on each side, and went up to 20 strokes on each side to raise a burr evenly across the edge from heel to toe. Then 600 grit and ready to go. There are still a precious few wheel marks in my bevels. The skew came to me hollow ground, so I flattened the bevels on the side of a grinder wheel and then got going at 300 grit.

I see my pictures are in reverse order, but they are all present.

It looks in picture one like there is a chunk missing out of the heel of the edge. I went out to the shop and looked after I posted this and do not see such a chunk missing with my eyes on the tool. I don't see a laceration in the rubber of the stone holder either, I am calling it a stupid light trick.

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[Scott Winners]

Don't hold back fellas. I do not want to show up in the ER with a skew through my ribcage but it sounds like could be doing a lot better, even though I am doing "a lot better" than I was when I started down this rabbit hole.

[Scott Winners]

I watched the Brian Havens one on the skew. Among other things he demostrated having fuzzies while taking down the cylinder in a hurry, and the chips he gets when he is making a light planing cut to smooth a surface. It might be that Rob Cosman and Allen Batty both demonstrated that and I just wasn't at that level yet, but I got it this time.

Mr. Havens also demonstrated leading with the long end when pushing towards the headstock in a vibrating environment. I may have to try that on my recalictrant maple.

I am going to look at new skews before I make the plunge, but since all my turning in the foreseeable future is hardwood it makes sense to me to take my included angle up to 55 degrees.

Tomorrow, Alan Lacer.

[Scott Winners]

And tips for keeping wood chips out of my navel, and the clothes dryer, most welcome. Swmno is, uh, on a bit of a tear.

[David Walser]

And tips for keeping wood chips out of my navel, and the clothes dryer, most welcome. Swmno is, uh, on a bit of a tear.

Many of us use a turner's smock to prevent chips from getting inside our clothes. Smocks, generally, are like a loosely fitting light jacket. It zips up the front and covers from neck to mid thigh. My beautiful bride made we one for Christmas several years ago. It has a velcro closure at the neck and 3/4 length sleeves. Long sleeves work, too, as long as they fit tightly at the wrist. (You don't want to wear anything that might get caught in the lathe.)

Or, some have adopted the jacket from the US military combat uniform as a turning smock. In Fairbanks, Alaska, you might be able to find one of those.

HTH

[David Walser]

I watched the Brian Havens one on the skew. Among other things he demostrated having fuzzies while taking down the cylinder in a hurry, and the chips he gets when he is making a light planing cut to smooth a surface. It might be that Rob Cosman and Allen Batty both demonstrated that and I just wasn't at that level yet, but I got it this time.

Mr. Havens also demonstrated leading with the long end when pushing towards the headstock in a vibrating environment. I may have to try that on my recalictrant maple.

...

Alan -- It looks like you're making progress. Whether to lead with the long point or the short point (the toe or the heel) when making a planing cut is one of those debates turners like to have. My take is it is mostly personal preference, but it's best if you can become comfortable with both styles. There are situations where you won't have the room to lead with the long point and times when you won't have the room to lead with the short point. Similarly, you want to learn to make a planing cut going left or right (but never both directions at once).

A couple of comments on your photos. First, I've not seen burning like that. I assume and hope that's from resin in the wood. I hate to think the steel itself is getting too hot! In the photo of the skew next to the cut line, it shows you are cutting on the lower third of the blade. That's correct! You're much more likely to get a catch if you allow the cut to move to the upper half of the blade. Question: In the photo, the blade is pointing almost straight up and done. Is that the orientation when you're cutting? If so, try canting the blade a little more to the left (handle to the right, blade pointing up in the direction of the headstock).

You're making progress. Keep going!

[Mike Goetzke]

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JKJ

Good info on the skew here. I'm one that is still scared to use it.

John - is this a teaser? What am I missing? Looks like the BS blade is in the middle of this log but how did it get there?

Mike

[John K Jordan]

Good info on the skew here. I'm one that is still scared to use it.

John - is this a teaser? What am I missing? Looks like the BS blade is in the middle of this log but how did it get there?

Mike

It's simply half way through the cut. What may look like the cut line on the top is the straight line I drew with a Sharpie to follow. Behind the blade the line has been cut away so it's not visible in the photo!

My saw will cut 12" so for log sections that will fit this method is the quickest to start. These show the second cut on that chunk of sassafras and the blanks I got from the log section.

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BTW, we have a LOT of sassafras around here. Most trees get to 8-10" in diameter then die. This one was much larger at the base, still alive but near the chicken house and starting to deteriorate at the base. I got a LOT of blanks from that log, many small but some large, and like all sassafras they dried without cracking. Anyone want to try sassafras stop in for a visit!

JKJ

[John K Jordan]

Many of us use a turner's smock to prevent chips from getting inside our clothes. Smocks, generally, are like a loosely fitting light jacket. It zips up the front and covers from neck to mid thigh. My beautiful bride made we one for Christmas several years ago. It has a velcro closure at the neck and 3/4 length sleeves. Long sleeves work, too, as long as they fit tightly at the wrist. (You don't want to wear anything that might get caught in the lathe.)

Or, some have adopted the jacket from the US military combat uniform as a turning smock. In Fairbanks, Alaska, you might be able to find one of those.

HTH

I don't wear anything special. The dust collector picks up a lot. An air hose removes most everything.

JKJ

[John K Jordan]

Scott,

I have never once seen burning on the wood or skew chisel. This makes me suspect there is too much friction or the bevel is slightly convex very close to the edge.

It's right to cut with the wood contacting the wood near the center or slightly below the center. This is taught to beginners to avoid disastrous catches from the long point digging in. When teaching I color in the recommend contact area with a red sharpie as a reminder. What few mention is the easy method to finely adjust the contact point. Instead of sliding the chisel up or down, simply twist the handle a tiny bit while maintaining the cut - twist to the right and the contact point will move up. (BTW, while the books and such say to keep the upper half of the skew away from the cut, this isn't strictly true. After some practice you can easily cut safely with the upper half of the skew if careful not to let the long point touch! I do this often since, hey, if always using the lower half then the upper the edge is still sharp! But I never teach this since since without extreme care it is too easy to let the point contact and get a scary catch! and ruin the wood.)

However, if the angle shown in the second picture from the right is typical of the way you are making the cut, the angle is way too shallow relative to the axis of rotation for my taste, I keep the edge closer to 45 degrees. From the dust on the bevel it appears the edge may be contacting the wood all the way from the middle of the edge down to the short point. If any of the cut is made with the short point, it will cut into the fibers and roll them up and leave them on the wood as the "fuzzies" you see instead of cleanly cutting them away.

If the edge is at a much steeper angle the area contacting the edge will be very small and the cut will be cleaner. It may leave a smoother surface. It may not leave as straight a cylinder but can leave more hills and valleys depending on your level of skill in guiding the tool down the rest. That skill improves quickly with practice!

A vary small cutting angle will help average out average out the hills and valleys but the wide contact area might need more force and can cause problems with the chipout in some woods. If you are cutting at this angle, try some cuts at closer to 45 degrees and see the difference. This may at first leave more surface deviations but this will quickly go away with practice. Using a larger angle will keep the short point out in the air, far away from contact with the wood.

This is what I do for students: I draw an angled line with a red sharpie approximately 45-degs from the lathe axis. Then I have them hold the skew with the edge lined up with the line and establish their stance and tool grip with the position of both hands and the proper arm support against side. Then we start learning to cut with me rotating the lathe by hand. When I see their angle getting off we pause and readjust.

For sharpening I grind with the front of the wheel leaving a hollow grind. I never flatten the bevel on the side of the grinder. Some people do use a flat bevel but mostly from sharping on a belt sander like the expensive Sony belt sharpening system that makes controlling the grind easy. Using the side of the grinder would be harder to control. One problem with a flat bevel is it's harder to maintain a sharp edge by honing. One of the authors mentioned describes some of the advantages of a hollow grind. For one thing, when the tool starts to dull a hollow grind is much easier to dress and restore a razor-sharp end using an extra fine diamond hone and the honing block I mentioned earlier. I think the hollow grind cuts better too. Note that I'm grinding with an 8" (600 grit CBN) wheel - a smaller wheel might leave too much of a hollow grind, I don't know. I sharpen with the tool flat on the rest, the rest adjusted for the bevel I want, and the tool angled on the rest for the edge. I push firmly against the rest and make a pass straight across the wheel, then flip it over and make a pass on the other side. Repeat until the bevel looks perfect. Remove the burr by honing with a polishing compound.

BTW, I make gauges from plexiglass to let me set the tool rest to the exact bevel each time without any false starts. Here's one for sharping hand scrapers at 90-degrees. I also make them for the angles I like for negative rake scrapers and my various skews.

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One suggestion, instead of practicing with a blank with figure on one side you might find some with with straight and consistent grain all around. Then you can concentrate on the cut without the extra complexity of soft/hard normal/figured wood. I typically give the student a round blank of straight grained cherry or soft maple, both which cut easily. I would not start with a piece of wood intended for a project.

As for practice, one author said to start with a 2x2 about 12" long from white pine or other soft wood, turn it round, plane it down some, then cut some deep v-grooves then make some beads and coves, then cut those away to get a cylinder again and repeat. After you go through about ten of these blanks you'll be ready for the real projects! I keep a box in my shop with dozens of such turned down practice blanks from students.

One more thing - you are unlikely to get hurt with the skew on a spindle unless you don't hold on to the skew and drop it on your foot, point down. If you do get a catch it will simply kick the tool straight back (with a heartstopping noise) and ruin the wood. Even if a catch is strong enough to break the spindle or throw it off the lathe there it's not a danger like a spinning bowl blank.

JKJ


I'll keep going as long as you guys are pitching in. I do appreciate it.

I got four pulley choices on my lathe, 1750rpm motor,
low speed (all millimeters) 27 mm diameter sheave to 75 mm diameter pulley = 630 rpm
2nd gear, 35 mm sheave, 65 mm pulley, 942 rpm
3rd, 65:35 = 3250 rpm - this is where I am getting my best shearing skew cuts in hardwoods
75:27 = 4860 rpm - not going to try that again soon

My messiest area remaining is in the maple, I got a bit of fiddle back on one side but straight grain all the way through and no fiddle back on the opposite side. It's about 1.75" diameter. I can't really see whats going on at 3250 rpm, but I suspect the fiddle back area is a little harder or tougher than the plain grain so my chisel wants to come outof the cut as it enters the fiddleback area. I made my best yet cut in the area just tonight, but I still have some tear out. So pic one is the maple.

Second pic if I can keep them in order is the chip pattern on my skew, and the fuzzies that don't really tell my how deep my cut is. I am using (I think) the bottom third to bottom half of the edge to keep the toe from digging in. Both Rob Cosman and Allen Batty were all about preventing digs, using the bottom third to bottom half of the edge and both of them generally had some fuzzies during their cuts. I guess I will look again, sounds like John Jordan doesn't make fuzzies.

Third and fourth are the burn marks on my skew after about two minutes of turning. The wider black band was riding on the wood, the more narrow black spot was the upper bevel of the edge during the cut. I ran it maybe two minutes (?) at 3200 rpm, total lathe time including taking numerous bad pictures that don't make the cut into this thread was under ten minutes.

At 300 grit I had all the black gone in 12 strokes on each side, and went up to 20 strokes on each side to raise a burr evenly across the edge from heel to toe. Then 600 grit and ready to go. There are still a precious few wheel marks in my bevels. The skew came to me hollow ground, so I flattened the bevels on the side of a grinder wheel and then got going at 300 grit.

I see my pictures are in reverse order, but they are all present.

It looks in picture one like there is a chunk missing out of the heel of the edge. I went out to the shop and looked after I posted this and do not see such a chunk missing with my eyes on the tool. I don't see a laceration in the rubber of the stone holder either, I am calling it a stupid light trick.

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[Scott Winners]

I am not sophisticated enough to do a multiquote reply.

For the pictures I took and posted last night, the one with the chisel and the fuzzies in it was one of about 20 pictures I took. I kept getting reflections from the flash on the camera messing up details. From the picture I did post I had the whole chisel rotated counterclockwise about 45 degrees when in use.

The black spots are overheated steel. When I stone the discoloration off the bevel, the burr isn't as tall over the old black areas as the the burr is tall over the areas that did not get blackened. The skew came used with the used lathe and was hollow ground when I started. I do not doubt it is possible - and for some preferable- to make shearing cuts wiht a hollow ground skew.

I have decided to take the included angle on my skew up to 55 degrees since I only forsee hardwood. I guess I will grind the angle hollow on my bench grider, sharpen, try it, and then stone the bevels back flat if I need to. I got better results with a flat bevel and a little experience than I did with a hollow bevel and no experience.

This morning I was able to work from home, and snuck out to the shop on my lunch break. I tried leading with the toe and pushing gently towards the headstock on my hickory cylinder and it is my best finished surface yet.

From the project perspective, my four cylinders are going to end up being the four tapered legs of a small table. My white oak cylinder is at 1.59", the other three are up in the 1.70s", so I can practice on them a little bit more before I get down to the project leg within.

My goal is to not have to sand, I want to get good enough that I can finish these legs right off the lathe, maybe a wipe down with isopropyl to be sure I have all the dust off and then paint/ varnish/ whatever.

Today's cut, with the chisel approximately in cutting position, the "right" chips, best surface yet, and no fuzzies at the edge of the cut:

[Scott Winners]

John K Jordan said: This makes me suspect there is too much friction or the bevel is slightly convex very close to the edge. end quote.

in regards to burnt steel. I thought there were two of you, but I only see one right now. Anyway, thanks to everyone who suspected/ mentioned this, I got about 50 miles this afternoon and couldn't think of much else.

A lathe skew is a particularly long tool, with not much registration surface at the business end. I have been cradling the butt end of the handle with my dominant elbow, dominant hand on the steel near the edge, leaning heavily into my non dominant hand onto my non dominant thigh so I could have good eye contact where the bevel meets the stone. Thinking about it today, I figured my bevels probably were convex, because the basic physics are totally and thoroughly opposed to maintaining a flat bevel.

I measured it when I got home, my bevel is 5/16" from tip to shoulder. From shoulder of bevel to handle tip the rest of the skew is 15.5". So if I let the tip of the handle (in my elbow) move up and down 0.001", the convexity generated on the bevel is going to be 49.6, call it 0.050". It is not reasonable to expect to maintain a flat bevel honing a lathe skew on a stone. If you got a 16"disc sander like Rob Cosman, more power to you.

I did stick my skew in a vise after I had the bench grinder set up. I could indeed rock a steel rule edge up and down on my bevels, both sides, but with less than a hair width showing at each extreme. On the one hand I feel vindicated I don't suck freehanding precise stuff, but on the other hand free handing precise stuff is a fool's errand.

My choices are to buy a skew set of grips for one of my Eclipse style honing guides, or learn to do shearing cuts with a hollow grind. I did the hollow grind on my bench grinder, tried it out, and I am golden.

If you are a n00b linked to this thread in the future, a couple pointers. I am only shearing 8-12 inches of cylinder between posts because it is much easier to learn to do a thing correctly than it is to unlearn bad habits. When you try a new thing do just a little and evaluate. Lathe a little, evaluate, go watch some youtube, get in thread with experienced users here, change one thing, cut a bit more, repeat.

NB: I made a 27 degree cut in a piece of straight grained shop dry cedar for a guide and set my bench grinder up to match that - but my skew is thicker at the tang than it is as the bevel, so my finished included angle was ~60 degrees. Oopsie. I went ahead and tried the hollow ground skew out with a 60 degree included angle stoned to 600 grit on DMT diamond plates. I got even better results on ash than I did this morning on hickory, but the piece of Ash I am working is stellar for straight grain.

My best cut was actually toe up and headed for the tailstock, but all four (toe up/ down) (headed for tail/ headstock) were better than I got this morning with on hickory with a 45degree slightly convex bevel. And no burnt steel with the hollow grind at hardwood appropriate included angle. The skew got plenty hot according to the volar surface of my forearm, but I didn't have to shut the lathe down waiting for the skew to cool between cuts.

It was pretty exciting on a hollow bevel, I had it resting on the shoulder knowing that when the edge rested on the spinning cylinder I was only microns away from active cutting, but it worked out just fine. Long term with frequent sharpening a hollow grind will be much easier to maintain by hand on stones, with no risk of convexity.

Of the four cylinders I am working, once the ash is down near planned I will clean up the hickory next, maple third and white oak last. I have a thread languishing in the design forum while I get this right.

[John K Jordan]

The skew got plenty hot

In years of planing with a skew can't remember ever feeling a skew get hot. As mentioned earlier, I often even stabilize the tip with my thumb and don't think I even felt it get warm. Too much pressure?

55 or 60-deg bevel included angle is more forgiving (hard to catch) but the cut can be difficult. A 30-40-deg bevel will cut easier with less force.

Hickory by nature can be difficult to work. The hoe handle I showed earlier was hickory. For learning the skew white pine or soft maple would be preferred, if available.

A convex bevel will cut fine but it sure is a lot more difficult to sharpen properly and hone. As for the actual cut this might be interesting, an excellent photo from Darlow's book. It shows a peeling cut but the clearance angle shown is about the same with any type of cut with any kind of tool. What may be surprising is how much of the bevel is actually in contact with the wood during the cut - in most cases none!

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The concave bevel really shines when honing. If hollow ground, you simply hold the hone tight against the bevel, supported by both the edge and the heel of the bevel at the same time. Honing removes a little of each as it keeps the angle perfect. This is not possible on a flat ground bevel.

You can usually hone several times before needing to resharpen. And as I mentioned before, between honings I strop the edge, previously with a leather strop, now with a polishing compound on a hard board.

For good control on the hone, I've found nothing better than these "paddle hones" by Eze Lap. (Sorry if I posted this before, I forgot if I did)

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I use the blue one, Extra Fine, for all my skews and gouges. They are not real cheap but can last for years. I place my forefinger on the end to press the honing pad gently into the tool. I hold the handle in my palm with two fingers wrapped around. I really like the control it gives me compared a larger hone - I can easily feel if it's in the right place on a hollow-ground tool. DMT makes a similar shape but IMO is not nearly as good and doesn't last as long in use.

JKJ

[Scott Winners]

Woot! Victory!

First, I hollow ground my skew back to 55 degrees included angle, stoned to 600 grit and then ran it for a solid 30 minutes on ash with no burning of the steel, and the skew was warm but not hot to touch. I will try pressing even less harder next time.

Also, my daughter got her new pen turning lathe unboxed. It is a little one with essentially a sewing machine motor in it. She is hoping to turn 10-12 pens while she is on semester break, I'll write up a review _after_ we have the pens finished. The thing is I showed her how to hold and use a gouge, she turned her first practice blank down to round. Then we went to my fullsize lathe with a 2" spindle in it, a 1" skew in her hands and then I turned the lathe by hand while she got a handle on toe up/down planing cuts with the skew. Then I turned her loose on her pen lathe with a half inch skew and she went to town. No problem.

You guys taught my daughter how to make planing cuts with a skew, thanks. All I did was show her what you taught me.

[Scott Winners]

Ok, new problem. I have practiced and practiced on cylinders. I want tapered table legs. Got my duplicator running. The plan was to use the duplicator down to within 1/16" or so of finished diameter, then plane with the skew for finished surfaces.

Not so much. I ended sanding all four, and didn't even try the skew on the maple. I was able to get a tool rest onto the ways in between the duplicator bars, and good parallel to the taper horizontally - but the workpiece also tapers vertically and diagonally and whatever other dimensions. Is this something I just have to practice on tapers and practice some more, or is there a technique to this?

All in all I am calling today a victory, the short steep taper at the top of the legs went into my LV-V tapered tenon cutter real nice.

Any road here is all four of my recent cylinders tapered to make legs for a small table. Ash is the short one, then up from the bottom hickory, maple and white oak.

For future adventures I am leaning towards getting to round, then breaking out a parting tool and caliper to set my major and two minor diameters. Gouge to hog off most of the waste to save wear and tear on the duplicator, and then cut a (assymetrical) bead with a skew at the major diameter and then go the duplicator. Does that seem like the hot setup?

I am thinking at the major diameter I should go in with the parting tool at three places, one on the major diameter and one off to each side, and then skew the bead than matches the pating tool layout.

[John K Jordan]

...
For future adventures I am leaning towards getting to round, then breaking out a parting tool and caliper to set my major and two minor diameters. Gouge to hog off most of the waste to save wear and tear on the duplicator, and then cut a (assymetrical) bead with a skew at the major diameter and then go the duplicator. Does that seem like the hot setup?


I am not a fan of duplicators after seeing the finish from one.

I make a story stick with marks at the major points and some points in-between. I set calipers to each of the points to just a bit larger than the final diameter then use a parting tool with cheap calipers to reduce the diameter in that spot to match the original. Then I use tools freehand to shape the wood between the calipered marks. Some use a spindle roughing gouge for most of this, I use a spindle gouge or Thompson/StLeger roughing gouge on the curves and a skew on the straight or tapered sections.

I keep about a dozen of these cheap calipers so I can leave several set to key diameters. I always round of the tips like the first one shown to let the calipers slip more easily over the wood when the parting tool hits the right diameter.

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JKJ

[Scott Winners]

I am not a fan of duplicators after seeing the finish from one.

JKJ

I can't disagree, but I only have one data point. Mine is 1/4 x 1/4 HSS stock shaped roughly as a scraper. I have the business end ground at 80 degrees; but this is not a tool that had an easy life in the hands of the previous owner, the bevel has been hollow ground at several angles. When I have a fresh burr on it (Lee Valley tool with the three carbide plugs) the finish is reasonable, but the burr doesn't last long.

I'll see if I can get the raised burr on the shaper to last longer by hogging off most of the waste with a gouge and maybe grab a Doug Fir 4x4 to practice skew planing tapers on. That should help my sharpening game too.