Red Grandis availability?

[Phillip Mitchell]

I’m about to bid on part of an extensive exterior millwork job for a local historical restoration at a 1901 estate. The folks running the job have apparently spec’d Red Grandis as the species of choice. I remember hearing more about this species a handful of years ago, but not much since then.

I called around to 3-4 local/regional suppliers today trying to get pricing and no one stocked any.

Does anybody have experience with Red Grandis in general or know where to source it? I will need about 2000+ bd ft, ideally S3S or S4S in mostly 6/4, and some 8/4.

[Mel Fulks]

Never heard of if before your post. Just found a photo on Google . Looks like Luan ...but coarser grain than luan.
I would be careful ,and not think of it as a 'rewarding job', or even buy a small sample without being paid first.
I'm guessing it's a choice made by a leader wanting to see how it would look.

[Mel Fulks]

Curious about other opinions, so I'll keep watching. I worked in custom millwork shops for a long time. There was a local
gadfly designer-- builder whose jobs I often worked on. He would spec.a lot of new materials. While we were using one ,he brought in a new couple to show them one of his designs in progress. Of course he was raving about the material. Few months later
he asked me to suggest a material,I can't remember what the job was. I said "Well, how about that stuff you used on the
last house? So he say's " No, I was just trying it out." There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that if he
demanded a new material ,and then didn't like it , he he would tell clients who asked about the stuff later that we told him
it was good, but he had "Tried it and didn't like it"

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I hadn't heard of it, so did a little research. Plantation grown eucalyptus from Uruguay looks like the only source? The company I was reading info from was Sierra Forest Products, they are a west coast supplier but they have it in stock apparently. FWIW

[Steve Eure]

Woodworkers Source in Arizona advertises as having some.
https://www.woodworkerssource.com/search.html?Search=red+grandis
I get emails from them all the time. Haven't ordered from them, but they do carry a wide variety of wood. Shipping rates west of the Mississippi seem favorable, but east of that is painful. They do have bundles with "free shipping", but that price has shipping cost factored it.

[Jim Becker]

If that's a hard and fast specification (and hopefully something appropriate for exterior use), you may need to speak to one of the really large wood suppliers to see if they can get it in for you. In my area, I'd probably talk to Hearne. It sounds like this stuff is only available from one or a very limited number of original sources, too. And that's likely why it's not stocked. But if it's available to the supplier, you should be able to get a cost which should include transportation and any special order fees so you can, in turn, quote the work if you decide to pursue it. And this is one of those things where if you win the work, your initial deposit needs to be more than large enough to cover the cost of the material and also be non-refundable.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Yes, my research tells me that Red Grandis is a branded, plantation-grown Eucalyptus Grandis that’s grown in Uruguay, as Steve mentioned. I think Eucalyptus Grandis is native to Australia but has since been established on plantations in SA with the trees groomed for production millwork, etc. Tall, straight grained, big logs that is at least marketed as a Mahogany or Sapele substitute. I have read that it’s available in wide widths and is very stable. I don’t know how much of what I read is marketing speak or reality, but I have done some reading over on WOODWEB about it and it doesn’t seem like a terrible choice.

I saw the 2 sources online mentioned above from a quick google search, but those prices and shipping are not favorable to me here in NC. I talked to a Northwest Hardwoods yesterday, which has an exotic division in the eastern part of NC and they gave me prices ranging from $2.25-3.00 bd/ft for 4/4 up to 8/4 rough sawn, but they said they wouldn’t have any stock until the first of the year at the earliest.

Ideally I would source it at least S3S because the finished lengths are all very short (nothing over 32” long and much of it under 24”) and a commercial lumberyard with a S4S Moulder or double sided planer and SLR can be miles ahead of me in terms of efficiency with milling that much lumber. While capable with tooling, my shop is tiny and is just me and it would be throwing money down the drain attempting to mill that much material from the rough in my shop.

These “pedestals” are what I’m bidding on. There are about 70 of them in total, about half being slightly smaller/narrower and the other half slightly larger but none over 30” tall. Any opinions about good methods for making the raised panels on the vertical sides of the pedestals are welcome. Looking at the existing (which is WRC), it looks like they are rail and stile construction with really short rails in between the wider stiles, but it didn’t look like a frame and panel, maybe the “panel” was laminated on to the inside of the entire rail/stile assembly?? but that seems to be a questionable method of construction. I wasn’t able to take one apart or bring one home for further inspection.

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[Jim Becker]

Part of your bid will be imparting to the customer that there is a lead time for specified material that's not "commonly available" in the local marketplace. The pricing you found is a lot better than I would have guess for something unusual!

[Phillip Mitchell]

And yes to Jim and Mel, this would be a situation where the deposit would have to more than cover materials and be non-refundable or they would source the material based off my takeoff and simply have me do the fabrication and assembly. There is lots of other exterior millwork and woodworking scope that is beyond what I will bid on and apparently the company I’m bidding the work for has a source for Red Grandis in the $3-4 bd/ft price range. That is part of the conversation I’m having to acquire more details before submitting a bid.

Trying to remain open and positive to a good potential opportunity while keeping my sense about me and looking out for potential pitfalls.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

That panel sure looks like an actual frame in panel construction. That'd make the rails and stiles pretty thick though if I'm understanding the scale. They probably want them identical to original? If so, you'll want permission to open one up a little, even a little drilled hole can give you all the answers.

That seems like a good deal on the red grandis, I'm surprised it's that affordable too.

[Bob Falk]

For that application I would spec something very rot resistant. How durable is the material spec'd? I would use ipe or some other rot resistant wood. More difficult to work with, but ipe will last a long, long time.

[Bradley Gray]

Looks like a good job for a 1 man shop. Bid high!

[Mike Kees]

Phillip that is an really interesting looking job. When I see something like this the first thing that comes to my mind is what machine will I use ? Followed very quickly by "wait a minute ,how did they make this in the first place "? You live in a pretty unique and exciting area of the globe for potential woodworking jobs. I hope this one works out for you.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Phillip that is an really interesting looking job. When I see something like this the first thing that comes to my mind is what machine will I use ? Followed very quickly by "wait a minute ,how did they make this in the first place "? You live in a pretty unique and exciting area of the globe for potential woodworking jobs. I hope this one works out for you.

The same thoughts were running through my head about how to make these panels. A couple of the guys on site who were tearing all these things out said that they saw some of the pedestals dated from the late 1990s and some looked original. There were definitely some slight variations in dimensions between existing pedestals of the same type and slight differences in the molding profiles on some of them.

As for interesting woodwork in this area, it does happen from time to time. It’s a pretty small population here in this little corner of the globe, but the tourist and vacation home economy is very strong and keeps a lot of the “high end” work going. This particular estate is on the Blue Ridge Parkway and is operated and managed by the National Park Service so they are actually the client. I am way down the chain in terms of layers of contractors and subcontractors doing some of the restoration work. I’m happy to even have a chance to bid on something like this. We shall see how it turns out!

[Tom Bain]

Phillip -- Check with Northland Forest Products near me in central VA. I believe they stock Red Grandis ... or at least it's on the price sheet and I vaguely remember seeing it in the warehouse bins. I've never used it myself.

https://www.facebook.com/NFPTroyRetailOutlet/

[Phillip Mitchell]

Red Grandis is certainly marketed as being a durable exterior wood. I don’t have much first hand experience with it enough to know how it holds up over time. I was part of a job once, probably about 4 years ago at this point, where it was used in a very modern custom home for the exterior doors and these hinged panels that functioned as “windows” but I haven’t had the opportunity to revisit the site since we finished our work there.

I can’t imagine working that much Ipe at once, especially for profiled moldings...

[Mel Fulks]

I would get info on how much of those boards are sap wood, and of course if specs. will allow any sap wood.

[Mel Fulks]

I've looked at this several times today. I don't think they are all same height ,not even all same width. Do they expect
you to map ,measure ,and number? Think you need a list made by them. Do you have to copy the old construction ? Or
will they consider old look, but new better construction . I'm pretty sure they expect you to make all those decisions and
then let the lawyers tell you what they want changed. Whoever came to you with the red grandis ,,,that's the tra.....
No need to spell it all out....you've probably seen The Godfather. I've made similar stuff ,we got paid , buyers were
happy. Groups of ladies can be difficult to deal with.

[Mel Fulks]

I just read some comments on another forum. Some positive comments but more toward 'don't trust quick grow stuff'
Some say it's a plantation grown wood similar to Lyptus.

[Phillip Mitchell]

I've looked at this several times today. I don't think they are all same height ,not even all same width. Do they expect
you to map ,measure ,and number? Think you need a list made by them. Do you have to copy the old construction ? Or
will they consider old look, but new better construction . I'm pretty sure they expect you to make all those decisions and
then let the lawyers tell you what they want changed. Whoever came to you with the red grandis ,,,that's the tra.....
No need to spell it all out....you've probably seen The Godfather. I've made similar stuff ,we got paid , buyers were
happy. Groups of ladies can be difficult to deal with.

They are definitely not all exactly the same width, height or molding profiles among each other, which makes me think that some are newer “reproductions” that were fabricated to be close the original and some may be original??

I have inquired about these dimensional inconsistencies, asking if they need to be matched exactly with different heights and sizes mapped to individual locations or if we can standardize the dimensions since the columns are also likely being re-made. I’m assuming the end product needs to visually match existing 100 %, but I did not ask about having to reproduce the actual original construction method.

There are some layers of folks that are making decisions about the entire project - NPS, architects, a large GC, relatively “smaller” specialized subs tackling certain scope, and then me (or someone like me) who would be hired to a perform a certain small aspect of the total scope like these pedestals. I’m at the stage now of gathering enough details from the layers above to actually come up with a well informed bid, but am still waiting to hear back on many details.

When I first heard of the job, there was talk of using Mahogany or Sapele for all the exterior millwork/woodwork, but perhaps the Red Grandis price appeared more favorable to the decision makers...

Here are some more photos I took from a site visit last week.

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[Jim Becker]

I sure hope their delivery time requirements are reasonable, too...but hopefully, those layers will help reinforce that with the end customer.

[Joe Calhoon]

We use Red Grandis in our window building workshops to make sample windows and door sections. It is a low cost exterior building material. I have never used it on a job for customers. I did make windows for our yurt just to see how it holds up in extreme conditions. They haven’t been out for quite a year yet so too soon to tell.
My opinion is Mahogany or Accoya are more expensive but better long term choices for exterior. The Grandis moves a lot and think it might not hold paint well. I have talked to shops that like it and others that don’t. I’ll see how the windows do in a couple years. It is fast grown plantation wood with big growth rings. It is harder than you would think. It is easy to machine. If water based finish is used it raises the grain more than any material I have used. Avoiding wide belt sanding helps this a bit.

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[Phillip Mitchell]

Thanks Joe for the reply.

I finally found some Red Grandis in stock in the southeast. Hood Distribution has a location in High Point, NC and has plenty of 4/4, 5/4, 6/4, and 8/8. They also can provide surfacing / milling options. I was quoted prices ranging from around $2.70 up to $3.30 bd/ft for 5/4 up to 8/4 respectively and that’s S2S with one edge SLR and free shipping over 500 bd ft. Certainly my best option so far for this material as I can get it surfaced 1/8” over thickness and then still have the flexibility to joint and plane to final thickness in 2 passes through jointer and planer. Saves me tons of time milling rough stock and emptying the dust collector.

Thought I would update, as this thread was originally about sourcing the lumber.

[Mel Fulks]

There are 4 grades of wood durability. "moderate " is number 3. Looks to me like "Red" Grandis knows some important
people who are lousy at math. Those porch piers hold up the porch roof. It's a nutty choice . Oh, it can be "difficult to plane". Moderate is "10 to 15 years"

[Phillip Mitchell]

Of course I’d like to use Honduran Mahogany for something like this, but the material selection is not in my scope of work and isn’t really up to me to decide or take liability for. All I can do is make a suggestion initially to nudge them toward to a more rot resistant species, which I’ve done and that’s where my jurisdiction stops...though, of course I hear you and am thinking the same things.

Out of curiosity, what’s the source of the wood durability metric? Wouldn’t mind seeing what some other woods rate. My understanding is that with most woods that have been rot resistant in the past, it all came down to old growth logs that had many years to build up the oils, etc that provide that rot resistance as well as trees that are big enough to be mostly heartwood and not a bunch of immature sap wood (that doesn’t have the same durability.) I would venture a guess that most species that we think of as rot resistant are worse now as an average than they actually were in the past because of less old growth in the forest and on the market. Sad but true unless you are knowingly sourcing from old growth timber, which has its own complications.

[Joe Calhoon]

Thanks Joe for the reply.

I finally found some Red Grandis in stock in the southeast. Hood Distribution has a location in High Point, NC and has plenty of 4/4, 5/4, 6/4, and 8/8. They also can provide surfacing / milling options. I was quoted prices ranging from around $2.70 up to $3.30 bd/ft for 5/4 up to 8/4 respectively and that’s S2S with one edge SLR and free shipping over 500 bd ft. Certainly my best option so far for this material as I can get it surfaced 1/8” over thickness and then still have the flexibility to joint and plane to final thickness in 2 passes through jointer and planer. Saves me tons of time milling rough stock and emptying the dust collector.

Thought I would update, as this thread was originally about sourcing the lumber.

Hi Phillip, the material we have came from Huntersville Hardwoods in NC. Some 4/4, 5/4 and face glued scantlings for window frames.
Joe

[Mel Fulks]

The lists I've seen all came from the tests done by USA Forestry service . My own first choice would be MDO sign board,
it's gonna be painted! Would miter the corners , use large "in box " wood corner blocks for strength. Neatly cut out
the panel openings , glue and nail over size panels inside , also made of MDO. Plant good real mahogany trim ,prepainted ,before
being installed. Can't help but wonder if anyone has taken apart one of the existing boxes. They might have been made
in 1950's from a bad choice of material and workmen. I'm suspicious of that base being so close to the panels. Most of
the time only the highest tier of old historic houses have good records. You might be copying something based on
pure conjecture.

[Bryan Sevier]

Phillip,
I have seen Red Grandis at the Hardwood Store of NC in Gibsonville, NC. It is very much like what used to be Lyptus. I used Lyptus with maple to build a bed set with (see below). Nice hard wood with beautiful color.
Hope this helps you out.

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[Tom Bender]

In your area are termites a factor? I might offer a second quote using something more appropriate, like fiberglass or concrete.

[Jim Becker]

While alternative "man made" materials have an attractiveness for sure, historical restoration requirements don't always allow their use. The material specified is, AFAIK, exterior appropriate, and I suspect that the architects and engineers for the projects likely chose it because it's similar to mahogany that's not uncommon for outdoor trim carpentry work at a more approachable cost.

[Jamie Buxton]

Of course I’d like to use Honduran Mahogany for something like this, but the material selection is not in my scope of work and isn’t really up to me to decide or take liability for. All I can do is make a suggestion initially to nudge them toward to a more rot resistant species, which I’ve done and that’s where my jurisdiction stops...though, of course I hear you and am thinking the same things.

Out of curiosity, what’s the source of the wood durability metric? Wouldn’t mind seeing what some other woods rate. My understanding is that with most woods that have been rot resistant in the past, it all came down to old growth logs that had many years to build up the oils, etc that provide that rot resistance as well as trees that are big enough to be mostly heartwood and not a bunch of immature sap wood (that doesn’t have the same durability.) I would venture a guess that most species that we think of as rot resistant are worse now as an average than they actually were in the past because of less old growth in the forest and on the market. Sad but true unless you are knowingly sourcing from old growth timber, which has its own complications.

Here's a paper from the US Forestry Service. It discusses weathering tests started in 1972, and the paper was published in 1995 after 20-plus years of weather exposure. Not much discussion of exotics. The general conclusion is that heartwood is way better than sapwood. https://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf1995/highl95a.pdf

[Mel Fulks]

It grows fast and it's new...what's not to like !! Some where there is a mad scientist trying to breed faster growing rats!

[Richard Baxter]

I remember this stuff came out around 20 years ago, it was called Lyptus and it was supposed to be the latest and greatest hybrid lumber. It was so hard on tooling a lot of people gave up on it. I believe it has a lot of silica which eats up carbide pretty fast

[Mel Fulks]

I can understand getting stuff to look right. And sometimes using the same wood type as the originals is good , that is if the
original material was GOOD. Sometimes non- original materials are better. But Red Grandis was not used on that house when it was built. And it has no feature that would make it even a "GOOD choice". I would only use it if they will pay you
to treat the boxes with the non- oil copper naphthalate. Even though they are specifying the new stuff they will blame
you when it fails.

[Jim Becker]

Not Lyptus...


Red Grandis


Hardwood



Red Grandis is FSC Pure (Eucalyptus grandis), a plantation-grown FSC Pure, uniform hardwood timber. Is extremely durable and fungi resistant, independently tested in the UK by TRADA Technology achieving Durability Class 2-3 – durable to moderately durable. Structurally tested – BRE tests also prove D35 structural properties and C36 density. Supplied as sawn hardwood, for added dimensional stability, less waste and reduced production time


APPLICATIONS

Cabinetry

Doors

Exterior Millwork

Flooring

Interior Millwork

Stair Risers

Turned Objects

Windows






LENGTHS

8 to 15 ft long

DISTRIBUTION

Grown in plantations in Uruguay

SCIENTIFIC NAME

Eucalyptus (Eucalyptus grandis)

SPECIFIC GRAVITY: BASIC

0.60

SPECIFIC GRAVITY: 12% MC

0.85

JANKA HARDNESS

1420

COLOR/APPEARANCE

Color ranges from a lighter salmon pink to a darker brownish red. Appearance has been likened to both Black Cherry and Honduran Mahogany. Color tends to deepen with age.

GRAIN/TEXTURE

Color ranges from a lighter salmon pink to a darker brownish red. Appearance has been likened to both Black Cherry and Honduran Mahogany. Color tends to deepen with age.

ENDGRAIN

Diffuse-porous; medium pores arranged in diagonal rows; exclusively solitary; tyloses occasionally present; growth rings indistinct; rays usually not visible without lens; parenchyma vasicentric.

ROT RESISTANCE

Mixed reports, with most sources rating the heartwood as moderately durable in regard to decay resistance, though it is susceptible to insect attack.

WORKABILITY

Generally easy to work, though it can burn easily. Glues, stains, and finishes well.

ODOR

No characteristic odor.

ALLERGIES/TOXICITY

Besides the standard health risks associated with any type of wood dust, no further health reactions have been associated with Red Grandis.

PRICING/AVAILABILITY

Should be reasonably priced, especially for an import. (This is most likely due to the source of the wood: which is exclusively grown on plantations.)

SUSTAINABILITY

This wood species is not listed in the CITES Appendices or on the IUCN Red List of Threatened Species.

[Mel Fulks]

Jim , thanks for correction. I promise to be more careful , as I do remember that the conjoined twins Ching and Chang
always insisted on being called by their right names. Regular twins deserve equal treatment .

[Bill Dufour]

In California most Eucalyptus is either blue or red gum. Both grow very fast, rot very fast, and burn very fast. The tallest hardwood trees in North America are blue gum eucalyptus plated in 1882 at UC Berkeley. Roughly 212' tall
Bil lD.

https://www.fs.usda.gov/treesearch/pubs/55149

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwV_nlNoO2c

[Mel Fulks]

Bill, thanks for help and more info!

[Jim Becker]

In California most Eucalyptus is either blue or red gum. Both grow very fast, rot very fast, and burn very fast. The tallest hardwood trees in North America are blue gum eucalyptus plated in 1882 at UC Berkeley. Roughly 212' tall
Bil lD.

https://www.fs.usda.gov/treesearch/pubs/55149

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwV_nlNoO2c

Keep in mind that members of a "family" don't necessarily share all the same characteristics, especially when individual variants grow in different places around the world. The Red Grandis being discussed is a member of the Eucalyptus family, but that's a very big family globally.


Jim , thanks for correction. I promise to be more careful , as I do remember that the conjoined twins Ching and Chang
always insisted on being called by their right names. Regular twins deserve equal treatment .

Yes, Lyptus as a short word for a form of Eucalyptus, but not necessarily the same species as is "marketed" as Lyptus, according to what I've read. IE...not identical twins. ;)

[Joe Calhoon]

I remember the plantation grown Lyptus. It was touted as being a good exterior material. That went away in a hurry for door producers.
it was night and day different than Red Grandis. Time will tell if Red Grandis is suitable for exterior work.