Compound miter on a slider?

[Jeff Monson]

I'm building some serving trays and would like to have the sides angled. So that will require me to cut compound miters. Is that possible on my sliding table saw? Being that blade tilts away from the wagon it seems it will be difficult. Any advice or procedures is greatly appreciated.

[Mike Kees]

Jeff , I am having trouble figuring out the finished shape of your trays. That being said compound miters are definitely possible on a slider. Why don't you take a scrap piece of ply wood and work out how to cut with that. you should be able to clamp to the wagon no matter what the finished outside shape is.

[johnny means]

Why do you feel that the tilt is am issue?

[Andrew Hughes]

I cut compound miters on my regular right tilt table saw. Just a combination of miters gage and small sled.
Seems like a sliding table saw would be better.
once you get your numbers figured out it wouldn’t take long to get order of operation figured out.
Good Luck Jeff

[Jeff Monson]

446804
Sorry for the confusion I was in a rush when I posted that this morning. This is the type of tray I'm trying to make but I want mitered corners. I also need to bevel the top and bottom edges which is no problem. Just trying to figure out how to set the proper angles for the corners. I guess what screwing me up the most is having the miter gauge on the left side of the blade and the saw blade tilting to the right.

[Mike Kreinhop]

Because I have one, I would use the DeWalt DWS780 SCMS to cut the compound miters on the sides and use the slider to cut the bevels on the long edges.

[Wes Grass]

If you're trying to calculate the angles for setup, there are charts online. Maybe even a calculator.

The bigger issue is one end has to have the crosscut fence angled back. On my Felder, the angle marks are far less easy to split degrees on, too close together. So you need a setup gauge of some sort you can flip over.

Or: https://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/en-US/Sawing/Accessories/Fence-accessories/EGL-1350.html

You know you want it ... we all do.

[Jeff Monson]

If you're trying to calculate the angles for setup, there are charts online. Maybe even a calculator.

The bigger issue is one end has to have the crosscut fence angled back. On my Felder, the angle marks are far less easy to split degrees on, too close together. So you need a setup gauge of some sort you can flip over.

Or: https://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/en-US/Sawing/Accessories/Fence-accessories/EGL-1350.html

You know you want it ... we all do.

Lol Id feel even more stupid asking if I had that! I have that and a new aigner fence for my shaper on that imaginary short list

[Jeff Monson]

Because I have one, I would use the DeWalt DWS780 SCMS to cut the compound miters on the sides and use the slider to cut the bevels on the long edges.

Mike I have contemplated just using my SCMS saw but had hoped for an accurate way to do it on my slider. I have an article on how to do it on a traditional cabinet saw but it doesn't really jive with my slider.

[Derek Cohen]

446804
Sorry for the confusion I was in a rush when I posted that this morning. This is the type of tray I'm trying to make but I want mitered corners. I also need to bevel the top and bottom edges which is no problem. Just trying to figure out how to set the proper angles for the corners. I guess what screwing me up the most is having the miter gauge on the left side of the blade and the saw blade tilting to the right.

Jeff, I’ve not built a tray like this (it sounds a nice idea), but I think that there is another way to look at the angles ...

I suspect that you are viewing them for a vertical cut, when you should look at the cut as lying in the horizontal plane. This removes the complexity of a compound cut and converts it into a simple angled cut.

Here is a coffee table I built. From the underside it could be your tray ...

https://i.postimg.cc/X7LMndxT/Another-Coffee-Table7-html-m605384fd.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/BbJhzwWt/Another-Coffee-Table7-html-77fda82d.jpg

Here are the parts ...

https://i.postimg.cc/ZK4tkVP8/Another-Coffee-Table6-html-636f48d8.jpg

So .. the saw blade is not angled. It is left vertical, and the crosscut fence is angled at the desired angle for each side of the corner.

Regards from Perth (Downunder, where we have a different perspective on the world)

Derek

[stevo wis]

This is commonly called a hopper joint. There was an article in Fww about 10 years ago from (Will Neptune?) showing how to make a tray like that along with dovetails. As I recall, you can cut the angles on a setup block, then it makes it easy to align the fence/miter guage on a table saw. It should work just as well on a SCMS.
Stevo

[Steve Rozmiarek]

So .. the saw blade is not angled. It is left vertical, and the crosscut fence is angled at the desired angle for each side of the corner.

Regards from Perth (Downunder, where we have a different perspective on the world)

Derek

I'm trying to wrap my head around this Derek. In your table (which is nice BTW), the mitres are replaced with the legs and their mortises. In Jeff's tray though, the mitres will require angling the blade to, right?

Jeff's tray is in essence the same cuts as crown molding, just without the wall behind it. Unlike crown though, the tray stock being flat allows it to be cut with either side up, so inside out and upside down pretty much but possible.

Personally, I tried to quickly cut some crown on my slider a few months ago, got frustrated and just took it to the SCMS. That's what I'd probably end up doing with the tray too, or cut up a pile of scraps trying to get the math worked out on the slider.

[Derek Cohen]

I'm trying to wrap my head around this Derek. In your table (which is nice BTW), the mitres are replaced with the legs and their mortises. In Jeff's tray though, the mitres will require angling the blade to, right?

Jeff's tray is in essence the same cuts as crown molding, just without the wall behind it. Unlike crown though, the tray stock being flat allows it to be cut with either side up, so inside out and upside down pretty much but possible.

Personally, I tried to quickly cut some crown on my slider a few months ago, got frustrated and just took it to the SCMS. That's what I'd probably end up doing with the tray too, or cut up a pile of scraps trying to get the math worked out on the slider.

Steve, get two pieces of paper/cardboard and cut two strips like below. Make the angles about 10 degrees for the demo.

https://i.postimg.cc/GhWkgrMM/mitre.jpg

Now join them, allowing the angled corner to be square with each other.

You should find that they create the corner of the tray. This will show you that you can saw the sides of the tray using the mitre gauge at 10 degrees and the blade vertically.

The top and lower edges will also be angled, but it is a simple matter to saw or plane these.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Steve, get two pieces of paper/cardboard and cut two strips like below. Make the angles about 10 degrees for the demo.

I follow, I misunderstood you

Now join them, allowing the angled corner to be square with each other.

You should find that they create the corner of the tray. This will show you that you can saw the sides of the tray using the mitre gauge at 10 degrees and the blade vertically.

The top and lower edges will also be angled, but it is a simple matter to saw or plane these.

Regards from Perth

Derek


I follow, I misunderstood you, thought you were saying the blade stayed vertical. Thanks for the clarification!

[Wes Grass]

What am I missing on this?

446933

[Mark Bolton]

What am I missing on this?

446910

Havent followed closely but I think what you may be missing is its likely nice to be able to tune fence angle once on the wagon not having to swing the fence as you graphic shows. Our approach to this when t comes up for repetitive cuts is to cut a spacer for the other side of the fence that allows flipping the part to the leading edge of the fence (we always cut on the trailing edge).

Im assuming Jeff is trying to batch out multiples and having to setup the fence for each side of the miter introduces a lot of error no different than swinging a compound miter saw. In a repetitive situation its really nice to dial everything in and leave it locked and just batch out parts.

P.S... The flip side to that is to make a quick rigid fence that projects to the other side of the blade (but is not cut completely through) and cut all your parts on one side of the blade but holding the part for the outbound side of the cut is a nuisance.

[Andrew Hughes]

I think that fixture could work. The difference i see from my setup is I like to reference off the bottom.
I use a regular table saw.

[Mark Bolton]

I think that fixture could work. The difference i see from my setup is I like to reference off the bottom.
I use a regular table saw.

Everyone would like to reference off the short point. But it your batching out parts that is a pretty brutal reference surface for speed and production.

[Andrew Hughes]

Everyone would like to reference off the short point. But it your batching out parts that is a pretty brutal reference surface for speed and production.
Once again Mark here where we don’t have common ground. Speed and production aren’t something I have to consider.
My work advice comes from a artistic point.
I do appreciate your view I’ve read lots of posts you’ve made. You seem like a very knowledgeable guy.
I think Jeff might be making one or two so I thought I would share my point.
Good day good Luck Always

[Wes Grass]

Havent followed closely but I think what you may be missing is its likely nice to be able to tune fence angle once on the wagon not having to swing the fence as you graphic shows. Our approach to this when t comes up for repetitive cuts is to cut a spacer for the other side of the fence that allows flipping the part to the leading edge of the fence (we always cut on the trailing edge).

Im assuming Jeff is trying to batch out multiples and having to setup the fence for each side of the miter introduces a lot of error no different than swinging a compound miter saw. In a repetitive situation its really nice to dial everything in and leave it locked and just batch out parts.

P.S... The flip side to that is to make a quick rigid fence that projects to the other side of the blade (but is not cut completely through) and cut all your parts on one side of the blade but holding the part for the outbound side of the cut is a nuisance.

I updated the drawing. It might have been a bit confusing, but I had simply mirrored it to save a little effort.

I agree with setting the fence accurately. Hence the gauge made beforehand to the calculated angle. Set the fence, cut all of one end. Flip the gauge, reset the fence, cut the others. Yes, a lot of back and forth tuning it, but I think the actual fit can be tweaked in with blade angle. You might not wind up the exact wall angles you want, but it should be close.

Same issue with a CMS, eyeballing the angles and making tweaks to get the fit. At least here, you've got a solid adjustment for blade angle, and gravity isn't fighting you adjusting the fence angle.

The other approach would be a wedge for the angle, and flip it end for end. The gauge I mentioned in post 7.

[Warren Lake]

whats allowed for cross grain wood movement?

Secondly are you really wanting to put those sides on top of a bottom and have end grain showing on the sides. cant think of anything positive to say about that.

[Mark Bolton]

Speed and production aren’t something I have to consider.

I dont think anything posted in this forum is necessarily pertaining to making 350 of the serving trays however given the season of serving and gift giving one would assume (though likely a completely inaccurate assumption) that making "some" of the trays means more than one. I would guess if its likely more than two but not less than 350 the question was posed as a way to do the relatively complicated, and uber precise, setup of the compound miter as few times as humanly possible to preserve sanity, forget about profitability.

I completely appreciate your ability to arrange your lifestyle in a way that affords you the ability to work with utter disregard for any ounce of reasonable profitability. Its a station in life we all aspire to find. A clientele that allows us endless pursuits to complete our fruitfulness at their expense. Im happy for ya. But at some point it kinda becomes obvious what the objective is. We slammed out some 30 odd sets of nesting trays for customer appreciation gifts and a bunch for family and friends a few years back because we setup repetitive fixtures so set one came out looking like set 31. Im guessing somewhere in that spread is what the OP was asking about but have no idea.

[Jeff Monson]

What am I missing on this?

446933

Nothing Mark, I had a major brain fart with the dual fence position. I spent an hour working on a setup block today and made a few test cuts. My 45 must be off as my miters are open on the inside. My wixey battery was dead so I couldn't get an accurate reading, but that should fix my issue.

[Wes Grass]

Not supposed to be 45, the 'miter' angle changes depending on the wall angles.

http://jansson.us/jcompound.html

[Andrew Hughes]

Nothing Mark, I had a major brain fart with the dual fence position. I spent an hour working on a setup block today and made a few test cuts. My 45 must be off as my miters are open on the inside. My wixey battery was dead so I couldn't get an accurate reading, but that should fix my issue.

Try these numbers 14.5 miter gauge and 43 degree saw blade tilt. It’s a nice slope I use on my small containers. Or you can use any number off a chart I think that’s what Wes has suggested .