How Many use Hot Hide As Primary Glue?

[ken hatch]

The rub joint thread begs a question, How many folks are regular users of hot hide glue? Is hot hide glue the one you use if there is not a reason not to?

For this West Texas farm boy the answer to both is yes. Unless I'm going to be out of the shop for several days the first thing I do in the morning is turn the glue pot on and check the water level and glue level.

ken

[Christopher Charles]

Sort of: I use warmed Old Brown Glue for nearly everything :) Mainly because 1) my shop would freeze until recently making it hard to keep a standing pot that didn't crack the glass jar I had the glue in, 2) see #1) as cold surfaces and hot glue don't go together so hot...and 3) my shop time often is shorter than the time it takes your glue pot to warm up! And when I had a standing pot, it ended up molding several times between bouts...

That said, I would love to get to the point that it was the primary method.

[Jason Buresh]

Ken,

I would like to get into hot hide glue, but i have zero experience with it, nor do I have a pot and warmer yet. I have been considering getting the Lee Valley pot and warmer after the holidays and experimenting with hide glue.

For now I use titebond 2 for pretty much everything except cutting boards where i use titebond 3

[ken hatch]

Sort of: I use warmed Old Brown Glue for nearly everything :) Mainly because 1) my shop would freeze until recently making it hard to keep a standing pot that didn't crack the glass jar I had the glue in, 2) see #1) as cold surfaces and hot glue don't go together so hot...and 3) my shop time often is shorter than the time it takes your glue pot to warm up! And when I had a standing pot, it ended up molding several times between bouts...

That said, I would love to get to the point that it was the primary method.

Chris,

I'm lucky living in the desert, few times it freezes here. Mold is the reason I turn it on every day unless I'm going to be out of the shop for an extended time. If that happens i pour the glue onto a screen and let it dry. The dried glue is easy to re-constitute and the process starts over.

If my shop time was limited I expect "Old Brown" would be my goto as well.

ken

[Robert Engel]

I’ve recently started using hot hide glue for hammer veneering - very low learning curve, BTW.

I’m considering using a lot more for joinery and general gluing.

Plus there’s the cache of feeling a connection to ww’ers of 200 yrs ago.

[ken hatch]

Ken,

I would like to get into hot hide glue, but i have zero experience with it, nor do I have a pot and warmer yet. I have been considering getting the Lee Valley pot and warmer after the holidays and experimenting with hide glue.

For now I use titebond 2 for pretty much everything except cutting boards where i use titebond 3

Jason,

I have not looked at the LV pot in several years so I could be mistaken but IIRC it is pretty small. The TFWW glue pot costs a penny or two but is also the best I've found. Basically a no brainer to use either directly or if using a interior pot all you need to do is make sure it has water. I've used it both ways and both work.

The only thing I'd add is for some applications liquid hide glue is better and some a Titebond III type is better but hot works about 80% of the time.

ken

ken

[Mel Fulks]

A Crock Pot works well ,as it's pretty much the same thing . Would check temps with thermometer,even on the "real ones"
USED crock pots used to be standard yard sale stock item, but I haven't seen any yard sales for quite a while.

[Andrew Seemann]

I had a hot hide glue phase a dozen or so years ago. I even have the HoldHeet automatic pot, which is nice to have when you need it. I haven't used it in a few years though. My shop time is limited and erratic, and Titebond 1 - 3 and Liquid Hide Glue work for nearly all of what I do. I know you can make hot hide ahead of time and keep it in the fridge, etc, but unless I really needed the specific properties of hot hide, I don't see a reason to use it. I did get some ground hide glue from TFWW last year, so now I at least have it on hand if I need it.

[roger wiegand]

It's pretty much the only thing I use in my player piano and organ building and restoration work; reversibility is a key property. Similarly for stringed instruments and any antique furniture repair. For more general new furniture work I get on better with glues with more open time. If the pot is already hot I'll use it for all kinds of things, if it's not I'm more likely to reach for a bottle on the shelf. A fairly pragmatic approach I'm afraid. I use fish glue a lot when I want something that grabs very quickly for cloth or leather to wood joints. As with liquid hide, I don't trust it to stay strong in any structural application.

If I remember to splash a little denatured alcohol over the surface of the hide glue before closing the bottle (I use a HoldHeet pot, but put a wide mouth reagent bottle with a tight fitting lid into it) I have much less problem with mold, sadly I don't often remember and waste a lot of glue.

[Curt Putnam]

During the winter in my part of SoCal (a little west of Palm Springs) it drops into the 40s and often into the 30s at night which is wheen I like to glue on the few occasions that I do. Discovered LHG works very well in high heat. It is still workable long after Titebond I, II or III have set up. Now that I am mobile again, I'll get more shop time and more glue up requirements. I just do not see HHG in my future - too much fuss and too little working time.

[Phil Mueller]

I’ve been watching a few Rosa String Works YouTube vids lately. He builds and restores instruments. He has claimed on several occasions that if Titebond Original (which is what he uses almost exclusively) was available back in the day, that that is what they would have used. They used hide glue, because that is what they had. He says Titebond Original is just as easy, if not more so, to reverse with heat and water than hide glue (at least when it comes to instruments and the typical joints they use).

I haven’t tested his claim on Titebond Original. But it does make sense, like with many things, if better glue was available when antiques were being built, they would have used it.

[Curt Harms]

I’ve been watching a few Rosa String Works YouTube vids lately. He builds and restores instruments. He has claimed on several occasions that if Titebond Original (which is what he uses almost exclusively) was available back in the day, that that is what they would have used. They used hide glue, because that is what they had. He says Titebond Original is just as easy, if not more so, to reverse with heat and water than hide glue (at least when it comes to instruments and the typical joints they use).

I haven’t tested his claim on Titebond Original. But it does make sense, like with many things, if better glue was available when antiques were being built, they would have used it.
I've always heard that with PVA glues, if a joint fails it cannot be reglued with PVA. New PVA won't stick to old PVA. Old wives tale? Wooden instruments need to be able to disassembled and reassembled for repair I thought.

[Phil Mueller]

Yea, his point was that instrument joints with Titebond Original can be undone with heat/water if needed for repairs (often easier than hide glue). He just scraps the old glue off the surface and re-glues.

It does seem doable given many joints are butt joints with very narrow pieces. I’m not sure I’d want to try to take apart a M&T with PVA.

[roger wiegand]

If you have a crack in a joint with hot hide glue you can often inject new hot glue and close it successfully because hide glue sticks to itself and reactivates the existing glue surface without removing any wood. That won't work with PVA. I can tell you that if a piano or organ has been rebuilt previously by someone who used "modern" glue it adds 50-100 hours to the rebuilding task, requiring many parts to be remade because getting them apart either destroys them or results in dimensions altered by sanding and scraping to get to a glueable surface so they don't work any more. Most rebuilders now won't touch a player piano that has been done with PVA glue.

Most luthiers and violin makers believe the rigidity of a hide glue joint is essential to the sound of their instruments, and that flexible glues like PVA have a deleterious dampening effect. I've never heard of anyone doing a side-by-side blind listening test on instruments identical but for the glue.

Almost certainly the original makers would have used PVA etc had it been available; they had no intention that their instruments should be rebuilt every 40-50 years. Those of us who work on them now are really happy they didn't have "better" choices.

[Jim Matthews]

I used both Titebond and Old Brown glue out of the bottle for one of my first projects.

I found the smell revolting. It worked fine, but wasn't worth the expense, warming period or ventilation requirements.

[ken hatch]

I use hot or liquid hide glue for most projects not because of nostalgia or romance but because hide glue is a better glue than a PVA glue for many woodworking projects. It brings things to the table other than rub joints and reversibility, it fact reversibility is way down my list. I can't remember the last time I took a joint apart to re-join but have used hide often to size end grain when needed. It sure is easy to clean up squeeze out and the list goes on. BTW, when one of the Titebonds is a better glue it's used, pretty simple.

ken

[Andrew Seemann]

Most luthiers and violin makers believe the rigidity of a hide glue joint is essential to the sound of their instruments, and that flexible glues like PVA have a deleterious dampening effect. I've never heard of anyone doing a side-by-side blind listening test on instruments identical but for the glue.

Almost certainly the original makers would have used PVA etc had it been available; they had no intention that their instruments should be rebuilt every 40-50 years. Those of us who work on them now are really happy they didn't have "better" choices.

And yet every modern builder says that the instruments that they built with PVA before they knew better still sounded fine and didn't collapse because of creep, while still saying any instrument built with PVA is junk (at least by anyone else) :)

I absolutely agree that the makers of yore would have used PVA. They built instruments for a living, anything that saved an hour or a shilling would certainly have been used. People tend romanticize historical builders as these towering figures in possession of ancient mystical knowledge that only used the finest materials, wood from the tallest tree on the northmost slope cut at the full moon, etc. Fact is they didn't go out of their way to find materials or look for ways to make something take longer; it would have been too expensive.

[Mel Fulks]

I disagree. The great old instrument makers used a thinned weaker glue on the tops so that they could be removed for changes to the tops( they liked to make stuff that sounded good besides looking right) ,repairs, changes to bass bar. I doubt there are any of the finest
bowed instruments that have never had top removed. Records were kept and many are still around, so this is not a guess.

[Mel Fulks]

Heat and water to remove a top ? Certainly not on the best ones. But I guess it might be neccesary on stuff made by
modern enthusiasts. Or in prison shops.

[Mel Fulks]

Highest price paid for a violin is $16,000,000. And it was a used one !!

[Mike Henderson]

Heat and water to remove a top ? Certainly not on the best ones. But I guess it might be neccesary on stuff made by
modern enthusiasts. Or in prison shops.

According to my luthier friend, the way they remove a top or bottom on a violin is they look for an opening between the side and the top. Then they work a palette knife into the crack and then carefully pry the joint apart. Apparently the glue is weak in tension.

But you're absolutely correct, Mel. Any older stringed instrument almost certainly had it's top removed at one time in it's life.

Mike

[The reason I asked him about that is because I couldn't see any way they could use heat to disassemble the joint. I also asked him about fish glue and he said that if they used fish glue they'd never be able to remove the top or bottom. And Chris (below), you're right. There's no maker or luthier who would ever put PVA glue on an instrument.]

[chris carter]

There is absolutely no way a legit violin, viola, cello, or bass would ever have been made with PVA. No way. It would be a disposable instrument with a short life. These instruments get opened up MANY MANY times over their lives. Had TB III been available long ago to the greats they would not have used it. The first time someone took their PVA violin in for work and word got out about the damage taken trying to open the thing up, that maker's career would have been instantly over.

[Mel Fulks]

Mike, thanks. And perhaps we have saved at least one instrument.
And to everyone else...always remember being allowed on you tube ain't really the best great credentials!

[Mel Fulks]

The bows are also interesting. A friend of many years is an accomplished pro violinist. He had a pro friend of greater fame who was a
mentor. When the mentor died he left him a fine bow. My friend says it has improved his playing. I asked him how could a bow make a big
difference . Seems there is not much info. But all pros swear the bows make a big difference. And of course the
horse hair is the "speaker" while the bow is the "cabinet". Makes no sense!

[Mike Henderson]

My wife is a professional cellist. She says that a bow makes a difference but I can't give you all the reasons. Good bows are very expensive. The best are made from pernambuco (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paubrasilia), a wood from Brazil that is very tightly controlled these days. Bows are fragile and if one breaks it can be repaired but it greatly affects the value (downward).

Some of the old bows have parts that include ivory. If you go out of country with one of those bows you can have problems returning.

Some good bows, today, are made from carbon fiber. They're not nearly as expensive as a pernambuco bow.

Mike

[Mel Fulks]

Mike, thanks for posting that. I'm guessing that the new carbon fiber bows are made curved and stay curved. The pernambuco bows are made straight ,then bent with a heat source. Maybe the new ones will have an ad like this:
Pernambuco can move to and fro....But our carbon fibers won't let go....and it's more Per-Muh-Nunt, Bucko !
(all rights reserved, MEF 2020)

[Phil Mueller]

Ken, I use liquid hide glue when I want a little extra time and it also helps slip in some tighter joints. Never had a joint fail. I do like it for certain applications.

My apologies for making a comment that sent it on a different direction. I feel like I just took the dog out at night and stepped in it. Certainly wasn’t meant to do that.

[ken hatch]

Ken, I use liquid hide glue when I want a little extra time and it also helps slip in some tighter joints. Never had a joint fail. I do like it for certain applications.

My apologies for making a comment that sent it on a different direction. I feel like I just took the dog out at night and stepped in it. Certainly wasn’t meant to do that.

Phil,

No problem. It led to posts about the use of different glues. It is all good, we need to understand the differences and when to use what glue.

A perfect example, tonight I needed to glue up three parts to make a table for a shavehorse. Because I didn't have glue in the glue pot and I wanted to get the part made I used Titebond II. To fix the creep I had to put cut off nails to hold the pieces in place where if using hot hide I could have just rubbed the pieces together and walked away once they set. In the end either works, just hot hide is easier.

ken