Glue for rub joints?

[Laurent Marshall]

I'm getting started on the chest of drawers from "The Joiner and Cabinet Maker", right now I'm still working on stock prep before gluing up my panels for the case. I've always found clamping and glue ups to be the thing I enjoy least in woodworking, so learning about rub joints as a way to do long edge joints without clamps has been intriguing. If I can make the process more enjoyable, why not? I'm doing this as a hobby after all.

I've done a shorter practice rub joint with Titebond III on some white pine that I think came out pretty good (the glue line came out thicker than with clamped joints, but it's still acceptably thin), and I'm pretty sure with a bit more practice I could make an even better joint.

What glues are really best for rub joints? I know these were traditionally done with hot hide glue (I've got a small package to try out on the way in the mail), and most of the sources I've seen say you can do rub joints with PVA glues, but it's really recommend to clamp joints with PVA glues... On the other hand, watching WoodbyWright's glue testing videos on youtube, it seems like hide glue is definitely weaker, and has poorer gap filling performance than a good quality PVA glue like Titebond III. Maybe that doesn't matter anyway since hot hide glue was used for rub joints for centuries.

I'm interested to hear what you folks on the creek have to say!

[Jim Matthews]

Titebond II has a shorter open time and dries (essentially) clear. Titebond 3 has a longer "open" time and dries a brown hue - it emulates hide glue.

Rub joints are traditionally made with hide glue, which begins to shrink as it cools, and draws joints tight.

It is prone to failure in damp environments, like most basement shops.

[Rafael Herrera]

You may want to try pinch dogs as clamp substitutes.

For example,
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00JJZACQE/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_fabc_TFJYFb4P07BRB

[Prashun Patel]

Rub joints may not be appropriate on all joints.

I would simultaneously investigate cauls. They reduce stress during glue up too.

[ken hatch]

I'm getting started on the chest of drawers from "The Joiner and Cabinet Maker", right now I'm still working on stock prep before gluing up my panels for the case. I've always found clamping and glue ups to be the thing I enjoy least in woodworking, so learning about rub joints as a way to do long edge joints without clamps has been intriguing. If I can make the process more enjoyable, why not? I'm doing this as a hobby after all.

I've done a shorter practice rub joint with Titebond III on some white pine that I think came out pretty good (the glue line came out thicker than with clamped joints, but it's still acceptably thin), and I'm pretty sure with a bit more practice I could make an even better joint.

What glues are really best for rub joints? I know these were traditionally done with hot hide glue (I've got a small package to try out on the way in the mail), and most of the sources I've seen say you can do rub joints with PVA glues, but it's really recommend to clamp joints with PVA glues... On the other hand, watching WoodbyWright's glue testing videos on youtube, it seems like hide glue is definitely weaker, and has poorer gap filling performance than a good quality PVA glue like Titebond III. Maybe that doesn't matter anyway since hot hide glue was used for rub joints for centuries.

I'm interested to hear what you folks on the creek have to say!

Laurent,

Use hot hide glue. Other glues, even liquid hide glue, have problems with doing a rub joint. As for the strength of the joint who cares about WoodbyWright's videos, I've yet to break a rub joint where the wood didn't fail before the glue.

ken

[chris carter]

I would not use a rub joint on anything that will be structural or under stress. I would not use it to glue up large panels. I find hot hide glue is the absolute best for rub joints because it’s so fast and doesn’t leave a very visible line. Elmer’s glue-all is also a good one – although considerably slower to set up, it leaves an almost invisible line. By way of contrast, something like TB III leaves a hideous dark brown line so depending on the color of your wood you might not be very happy.

Gap filling is meaningless with a rub joint because in theory there should be zero gaps on a rub joint. If you’ve got any gaps, don’t do a rub joint.

One thing to consider is that if what you hate about clamping is the clamping time, hot hide glue joints that aren't under stress DURING the glue up don't need to be clamped for long at all.

[Laurent Marshall]

You may want to try pinch dogs as clamp substitutes.

For example,
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00JJZACQE/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_fabc_TFJYFb4P07BRB

Those those might be worth a try - I guess they're mostly good to reduce the chance of the boards shifting before the glue has set. I'm not sure they'd provide much clamping pressure, and theoretically with a perfect rub joint with hot hide glue you shouldn't need any...

Although I don't enjoy using clamps, going clamp-less does make me a bit nervous!

[Laurent Marshall]

I would not use a rub joint on anything that will be structural or under stress. I would not use it to glue up large panels. I find hot hide glue is the absolute best for rub joints because it’s so fast and doesn’t leave a very visible line. Elmer’s glue-all is also a good one – although considerably slower to set up, it leaves an almost invisible line. By way of contrast, something like TB III leaves a hideous dark brown line so depending on the color of your wood you might not be very happy.

Gap filling is meaningless with a rub joint because in theory there should be zero gaps on a rub joint. If you’ve got any gaps, don’t do a rub joint.

One thing to consider is that if what you hate about clamping is the clamping time, hot hide glue joints that aren't under stress DURING the glue up don't need to be clamped for long at all.

Mostly what I don't like about clamping is the set up and then fiddling with and setting all the clamps well. It's just a lot of pieces to handle, and even with cauls you still often need a ton of clamps as the cauls will only spread the clamping pressure an extra few inches sometimes. Not dealing with clamps for a glue up would just be kind of nice. If a part of the process is not enjoyable, and there's another way to get a good result, why bother with the less enjoyable method? I certainly want my projects to last, but on the other hand I'm not doing this for paying customers.

[Laurent Marshall]

Laurent,

Use hot hide glue. Other glues, even liquid hide glue, have problems with doing a rub joint. As for the strength of the joint who cares about WoodbyWright's videos, I've yet to break a rub joint where the wood didn't fail before the glue.

ken

I guess "use the hot hide glue and don't worry about it" is one way to go!

[Prashun Patel]

Because going clampless is not something most people do. There’s a reason. Cauls spread the pressure over longer distances. I’ve done them up to 4 feet. Imho you’ll reduce your long term stress and be a better woodworker if you both learn to joint as if you’re doing a run joint but also learn to use clamps more efficiently and to utilize dominos or dowels for alignment. Draw boring is anothe fantastic technique worthy of study.

Stress is reduced by having options not by religiously sticking to one method.

[Tom Bain]

For me the stress of glue ups comes from the "being on the clock" with the limited set time of the glue, especially for complex glue-ups. That's why I really prefer working with longer open time glues like Titebond Extend or Plastic Resin glue. Something to check out if you haven't already.

[chris carter]

Mostly what I don't like about clamping is the set up and then fiddling with and setting all the clamps well. It's just a lot of pieces to handle, and even with cauls you still often need a ton of clamps as the cauls will only spread the clamping pressure an extra few inches sometimes. Not dealing with clamps for a glue up would just be kind of nice. If a part of the process is not enjoyable, and there's another way to get a good result, why bother with the less enjoyable method? I certainly want my projects to last, but on the other hand I'm not doing this for paying customers.

I totally understand wanting to have fun over the "best way" to do something as I totally fall into that boat! One thing you can try is a sprung joint. If you leave a gap in the middle you only need to clamp the middle. Or leave the hump in the middle and just one clamp on each end. It would at least cut down on the number of clamps.

Another recommendation I could make is the choice of clamps. I used to get really frustrated because I relied on F clamps a lot. Then one day it hit me that so many old-school woodworking gurus I watched on youtube would use pipe clamps for everything and only resort to other styles when a pipe clamp couldn't work. So I bought more pipe clamps! I used to hate glue ups, but now they aren't so bad. Some people really swear by those aluminum bar clamps. I'm just saying, the style of clamp, or brand of clamp, might be a contributing factor and different people like different things.

THAT SAID, I must say that although I don't do rub joints very often, when I DO use one there is a certain satisfaction to it!

P.S. and in agreement with a previous post - if you really want to go hog wild with rub joints, just go hot hide glue and don't look back because everything else will be various levels of compromise.

[Jason Buresh]

There are other options. A spring joint for example where you intentionally leave a small valley in the middle while jointing and then concentrating the clamping pressure in the middle while the ends are "self clamping".

There are other clampless options as well. I have seen batons and wedges used.

[Mel Fulks]

Hide Glue granules are ...or were sold in different strengths. There is certainly some control in just thinning it ,but set
time will be longer. I don't like the bottled stuff ,has....obviously a chemical to inhibit set-up . I've seen it fail on a
carefully used ....is there any other kind? violin.

[Jim Koepke]

I've always found clamping and glue ups to be the thing I enjoy least in woodworking,

It may be worth taking a little time to identify the aspects of clamping causing this lack of enjoyment.

One change to make clamping more enjoyable for me was to get all of my pipe clamps set up before hand. This meant getting them all set up for the size of the pieces being glued. Then laying a few of them lined up with cauls placed strategically on the surface being used for the gluing made it easy to apply the glue and bring the pieces together. Lightly tighten the cauls and then tighten the final holding clamps.

Planning the sequence can make the job go a lot quicker and with less trepidation.

jtk

[Robert Engel]

Mostly what I don't like about clamping is the set up and then fiddling with and setting all the clamps well. It's just a lot of pieces to handle, and even with cauls you still often need a ton of clamps as the cauls will only spread the clamping pressure an extra few inches sometimes. Not dealing with clamps for a glue up would just be kind of nice. If a part of the process is not enjoyable, and there's another way to get a good result, why bother with the less enjoyable method? I certainly want my projects to last, but on the other hand I'm not doing this for paying customers.if you want to do ww’ing without clamps, you’re in for a challenge.

[Doug Dawson]

I'm getting started on the chest of drawers from "The Joiner and Cabinet Maker", right now I'm still working on stock prep before gluing up my panels for the case. I've always found clamping and glue ups to be the thing I enjoy least in woodworking, so learning about rub joints as a way to do long edge joints without clamps has been intriguing. If I can make the process more enjoyable, why not? I'm doing this as a hobby after all.

Get better clamps. With decent _parallel_ clamps (Bessey K-body, Jet, Yost etc) you just set up the clamps, drop the glued board assembly into them, and tighten. Cauls help with alignment. Easy peasy woody squeezy.

[Derek Cohen]

https://sawmillcreek.org/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Laurent Marshall https://sawmillcreek.org/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=3075768#post3075768)
Mostly what I don't like about clamping is the set up and then fiddling with and setting all the clamps well. It's just a lot of pieces to handle, and even with cauls you still often need a ton of clamps as the cauls will only spread the clamping pressure an extra few inches sometimes. Not dealing with clamps for a glue up would just be kind of nice. If a part of the process is not enjoyable, and there's another way to get a good result, why bother with the less enjoyable method? I certainly want my projects to last, but on the other hand I'm not doing this for paying customers.





if you want to do ww’ing without clamps, you’re in for a challenge.

Well, now .... mortice-and-tenon joints go together with drawboring ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/Drawboring_html_1ba5498.jpg

Drawers go together with dovetails ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/Transformations1_html_m55804e14.jpg

... and panels can be pulled tight with a rubbed joint and/or stretched blue tape ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/OneStepBack_html_m34b74f22.jpg


Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mel Fulks]

Derek, tomorrow there will be a lot of guys trying to buy " dovetail decals ,like I saw online "

[ken hatch]

https://sawmillcreek.org/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Laurent Marshall https://sawmillcreek.org/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=3075768#post3075768)
Mostly what I don't like about clamping is the set up and then fiddling with and setting all the clamps well. It's just a lot of pieces to handle, and even with cauls you still often need a ton of clamps as the cauls will only spread the clamping pressure an extra few inches sometimes. Not dealing with clamps for a glue up would just be kind of nice. If a part of the process is not enjoyable, and there's another way to get a good result, why bother with the less enjoyable method? I certainly want my projects to last, but on the other hand I'm not doing this for paying customers.






Well, now .... mortice-and-tenon joints go together with drawboring ...



Drawers go together with dovetails ...



... and panels can be pulled tight with a rubbed joint and/or stretched blue tape ...




Regards from Perth

Derek

LMAO, thanks Derek.

ken

[chris carter]

Another “clampless” method for panels is to just use the dogs on your bench. I find that draw bottoms, being thin, are particularly annoying to clamp up so I just use my bench top. Here’s an example of a small drawer bottom.
446341

I’ve certainly done ones wider, and ones made up of three or four boards. It just depends on your spacing and the width of your bench because when it goes too far off the end of your bench it can be tricky to keep the edges aligned and also might require a spring joint. But it does work and it’s guaranteed flat. I usually save these kinds of glue-ups for the end of the day. I lay down some painters tape where the glue lines will be to protect the bench, and then I drop a dumbbell (or however many are necessary) on top to keep it from bowing up. Then I walk away and come back in the morning. It’s much much easier than using clamps, but it does tie up your bench for a while, which is why I do them at the end of the day. I successfully did a 36” wide x 22” deep drawer bottom for my son’s desk using this method on a 24” wide bench. I’ve also seen people use this method without a dogged vise by using pairs of wedges to apply pressure.

One of the nicest things about this method is that the thickness of your boards doesn't matter. For a caul to work, your boards need to be pretty darn close to the same thickness, which can be a bit of a pain when thicknessing by hand. If they aren't pretty consistent in thickness, the caul won't be very effective at keeping the faces even. I've been burned by that a few times! Then you have to plane both sides after gluing up. With this method, you can have pretty wild thickness fluctuations and it doesn't matter. Then the face side just needs a little smoothing (or card scraping if it's already pretty much finished) and the backside is the only side you really have to plane down.

[Laurent Marshall]

https://sawmillcreek.org/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Laurent Marshall https://sawmillcreek.org/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=3075768#post3075768)
Mostly what I don't like about clamping is the set up and then fiddling with and setting all the clamps well. It's just a lot of pieces to handle, and even with cauls you still often need a ton of clamps as the cauls will only spread the clamping pressure an extra few inches sometimes. Not dealing with clamps for a glue up would just be kind of nice. If a part of the process is not enjoyable, and there's another way to get a good result, why bother with the less enjoyable method? I certainly want my projects to last, but on the other hand I'm not doing this for paying customers.






Well, now .... mortice-and-tenon joints go together with drawboring ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/Drawboring_html_1ba5498.jpg

Drawers go together with dovetails ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/Transformations1_html_m55804e14.jpg

... and panels can be pulled tight with a rubbed joint and/or stretched blue tape ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/OneStepBack_html_m34b74f22.jpg


Regards from Perth

Derek

I haven't seen your technique for holding a rub joint together with blue tape before, so I have a few questions!

I wouldn't think the blue tape provides much pressure, is it more to simply avoid undue stress on the joint as the glue dries? Also, did you make that rub joint with the boards vertically in your vise, then remove them after the glue tacked to tape them?

[Mel Fulks]

Sometimes more open time lets people slide the pieces around too long.
Pinch dogs are good but I was surprised at how expensive they are, I made a bunch by buying mild steel flat stock ,
using a skinny cutting wheel to make the V cut first ,then make the cut-off. And finally tapering the sides a little with
standard wider grinding wheel.

[Derek Cohen]

I haven't seen your technique for holding a rub joint together with blue tape before, so I have a few questions!

I wouldn't think the blue tape provides much pressure, is it more to simply avoid undue stress on the joint as the glue dries? Also, did you make that rub joint with the boards vertically in your vise, then remove them after the glue tacked to tape them?

Laurent, as mentioned, the tape has a little stretch, and this adds pressure.

The fact is that a good fit does not require much pressure. Using blue tape is proof of this.

We do the same when attaching edging. No clamps required, just tape.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Laurent Marshall]

Laurent, as mentioned, the tape has a little stretch, and this adds pressure.

The fact is that a good fit does not require much pressure. Using blue tape is proof of this.

We do the same when attaching edging. No clamps required, just tape.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I made a few shorter practice joints this evening with the hot hide glue, but I haven't tried the tape yet.

My goal is to try experiment a bit for now and get a feel for getting the right viscosity to the glue mixture before gluing up my panels.

Do you find it necessary to heat the wood surface with a hair dryer before brushing the glue on with these longer edge joints?

[Laurent Marshall]

I thought it would be good to post an update.

This weekend I went ahead and glued up the first two panels for the chest of drawers (each panel was composed of 3 boards, 42in long). I took the plunge and did the rub joints with hot hide glue - no clamps.

It worked. And it worked really well in the end. Was it a lot of work? Yes, yes it was. It was maddening at times. But it was worth it.

Getting that much practice with my jointer plane has definitely made me a better woodworker. Hide glue is also interesting stuff - with two matching edges, the shrinkage of the glue as it dries seems to pull the boards together incredibly tightly. If you get it right you basically won't see any glue line at all, and I don't think you could tell one of these joints apart from a clamped joint. I did get a few joints with sections where the glue line is visible, but I'm not worried about it. Most of the joints came out almost perfectly seamless over the full 42" length.

So if you have the time, traditional rub joints are pretty cool, and definitely worth trying out!

[Prashun Patel]

A very good exercise! Sounds like you really improved your jointing skills. Great jointing solves a lot of issues with glue ups. It definitely gets less maddening over time. You get way better at spotting the spots that need attention, and squarely taking off less material.