You just can't be careful enough - COVID

[Lisa Starr]

I have a friend with multiple underlying health conditions that makes COVID-19 especially dangerous. Due to this, She and her husband (both retired) have gone the extra mile to avoid contracting the virus. Online shopping or curbside pickup only. Neither of them have been in a store since March. All packages dropped by FedEx or UPS are put in garage by the driver and they retrieve the package with gloves to to wipe off and open it. No takeout food of any type and no visitors to their home, nor do they visit others. Only appointments kept are with their doctors and always masked. I don't believe that they are afraid as much as just trying to prevent a problem.

Despite all these precautions, they have just both tested positive of COVID-19. He is relatively "okay" and at home. She's in the hospital, which is over capacity, so her bed is in a hallway! Her doctor figures the only way they could have contracted the virus is that the groceries they get curbside must have been packaged by an asymptotic person with COVID.

I guess my take away from all of this is that it is apparently impossible to completely protect yourself from the virus.

[Mark Bolton]

THAT... is some freaky stuff. We have been, what we would consider, overly cautious from the get go but I always joked that one of us would likely be the ones to get it. Sounds like you cant get much heavier contact tracing than that scenario. Hope they get through it ok.

[Ted Calver]

Lisa, Thanks for posting this. My wife and I are both high risk and take all the precautions mentioned. Maybe we need to explore adding a UV decontaminating station to hit all those incoming packages and groceries with. Otherwise, there doesn't seem to be much more we can do. There are still plenty of people exercising their rights and spreading the virus. Until everyone is on the same page (unlikely) this sickness will continue. Even with the availability of vaccines, there are probably enough anti-vaxxers out there to ensure the virus stays around for a while. Retirement should not end up on a bed in the hospital hallway.:( Wishes for a speedy recovery for your friends.

[Kevin Jenness]

Does an asymptotic person have a pointy head? :rolleyes:

Sorry about your friends. This definitely reinforces the need to minimize unnecessary contact. Here's hoping vaccines are made widely available soon.

[Jim Becker]

Very sad to hear this news about your friend and I hope they both recover successfully and without any of the whacko lingering side effects.

[Todd Trebuna]

It is virtually impossible to remove all risk. It is extremely possible to mitigate most risk. If you just think about a couple of different situations, you can see the futility of being worried about 100% risk mitigation. Door knobs, groceries, mail, mailbox etc. Assuming you can anticipate what has and hasn't been touched, you can mitigate most of that. The difficulty is you don't know what you don't know. And we don't know everything about this virus. Best wishes and prayers for a smooth recovery.

[Mark Bolton]

It is virtually impossible to remove all risk.

Anyone who would think they could remove _all risk_ is an absolute idiot. The village idiot knows your just making the safest decisions you can but there is always some risk. The boy in the plastic bubble had risk. The most secure labs on the planet have risk.

[Ron Citerone]

Must be disappointing to go to extreme safety precautions and still get infected. One thought is that perhaps you are less likely to get a heavy viral load and a severe case by being as safe as you can?

One thing for sure, going to a restaurant, after going to the gym and then ending your night at a pub is really pushing your luck IMO. Better to grill a steak, go for a walk and polish off that bottle of Jameson in the cabinet! 🥃

[Jim Koepke]

Lisa, hope and prayers for your friends to recover.

We are still living with the problem of too many people who believe this is a conspiracy to rob us of our rights.

If we can not all get with the program we will have to live with this malady with us for a while.

jtk

[glenn bradley]

Wait, (read with sarcasm) I heard on the news today that there isn't really a COVID pandemic. The guy seemed really sure of himself. . .

Try telling this to people who are lying in the hallways of hospitals, right? Hope your friends make out OK.

[Brian Tymchak]

Wait, (read with sarcasm) I heard on the news today that there isn't really a COVID pandemic. The guy seemed really sure of himself. . .

Must have been one of the Ohio legislators wanting to impeach our governor (of the same party no less) for putting restrictions on bars, etc last Spring.

Lisa, I hope your friend pulls through quickly.

[Tony Zona]

The best to your friends, Lisa.

I’m betting I have been inside the same grocery they used for pickup. And, we, too, are trying to be so careful.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Lisa,

I hope your friends recover quickly and completely.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Saw on the news this morning. A nurse who was in hospital with Covid, got it from her mother. Her mother had given someone a ride, and they were the carrier. Whole family of eight now has Covid, with father dying from it, just because of an act of kindness. You can't be too careful. Praying for their recovery.

[Lee Schierer]

Lisa, we wish your friends well.

Your friends sound like my wife and I. We have been doing all the same things as your friends since March as well. We just got groceries at curbside today and we wiped everything down, as we normally do with a sanitizer solution. All bottled products get sprayed with a bleach solution and left to sit for at least 10 minutes before rinsing.

[Brian Elfert]

My friend in his 50s is hospitalized with COVID. He has no idea where he got COVID. He isn't employed right now (his choice). I know he goes out shopping. I don't think he has been to a restaurant because that is a luxury at his income.

I bet it will end up costing taxpayers at least $100,000 for his care as he is on Medicaid.

[Mel Fulks]

We wish them well. My guess is she got a bad cold and then caught covid in in the hall way. Or from her doctor.
I was just looking at some of the new numbers on covid economy consequences. Ventriloquists seem to be hit the hardest.
But the last time I saw Charlie Mc Karthy and Nucklehead Smith perform...they seemed a little ...wooden.

[Andrew Joiner]

I have a friend with multiple underlying health conditions that makes COVID-19 especially dangerous. Due to this, She and her husband (both retired) have gone the extra mile to avoid contracting the virus. Online shopping or curbside pickup only. Neither of them have been in a store since March. All packages dropped by FedEx or UPS are put in garage by the driver and they retrieve the package with gloves to to wipe off and open it. No takeout food of any type and no visitors to their home, nor do they visit others. Only appointments kept are with their doctors and always masked. I don't believe that they are afraid as much as just trying to prevent a problem.

Despite all these precautions, they have just both tested positive of COVID-19. He is relatively "okay" and at home. She's in the hospital, which is over capacity, so her bed is in a hallway! Her doctor figures the only way they could have contracted the virus is that the groceries they get curbside must have been packaged by an asymptotic person with COVID.

I guess my take away from all of this is that it is apparently impossible to completely protect yourself from the virus.
So sad to hear. My best wishes to you and your friends Lisa. I'm grateful for all the very positive feedback here.
I'm puzzled why anyone would joke about this. :confused: I guess we're all free to have our own "take" on things here. In the past I would make sarcastic jokes about things I was afraid of or didn't want to accept, but I'm trying to be an adult now.

[Bruce King]

Lisa, sorry to hear that, hoping for a full recovery for your friends.
Everyone needs to evaluate Dr appointments, many are unnecessary, the following up, follow up of a follow up. I am convinced they got exposed in a Dr office. The techs that check your BP and temperature are my biggest fear as well as the over crowded situation and probably poor air filtration.

[Kev Williams]

They say hospitals are the worst place to be if you don't want to get sick...

Sorry to hear about your friends Lisa, I wish them well....

My wife's youngest son (he's 38) called just this morning, he and his 8 year old son just tested positive He's been doing Door Dash... A buyer I've known for probably 30 years, her mother recently left the hospital after a 2-week-ish stay. Her aunt (her moms sister) paid the ultimate price in October. An older friend of mine spent a couple of weeks in the hospital, he came home about 2 weeks ago. He called me yesterday and said he won't even drive yet because he's so weak still.

I know I'M taking this thing seriously. I wear a mask AND gloves when I go out, and carry my own sanitizer. The wife recently bought 1/2 dozen face shields from Amazon, they're the same ones I see on nurses a lot on TV, blue band that says 'face shield'- I've taken to wearing one of them too when I shop, to help keep any errant viruses out of my eyes, which by the way is probably how many folks are getting infected. Kids look at me like I'm a doctor, or maybe a martian. Doesn't matter to me if the thing helps! I sanitize my shopping cart. About every 3rd product I put in my cart I'll clean my hands and the cart again. I sanitize at the checkout counter, before and after using the CC machine. With the gloves I sanitize the gloves and my cloth mask before I remove them, then sanitize my bare hands and my whole face. So far so good it seems. And even if I'm not (never tested), I'm doing my best to not spread it around.

My biggest issue with Covid at the moment is that I haven't seen a doctor in years, and I really need to... But not now I won't... :(

[Mel Fulks]

"If we can not all get with the program we will have to live with this malady with us for a while."

[George Bokros]

Sorry to hear about you friend Lisa. We are taking all precautions we can and praying a lot. My son, in his 50's, delivers bread, buns,etc. to grocery stores and restaurants so we are very concerned for his exposure

Wishing your friends a full recovery and no "long hauler" issues.

[Ole Anderson]

OK, that is a scary report. Up until now, I had the understanding, as reported by the "professionals", that to contract Covid you needed to be in the close presence of a carrier for at least several minutes and that it generally wasn't spread by touching surfaces and you needed a good dose, not just a few stray viruses. Yikes.

[Jim Becker]

Ole, there is "less" risk from picking up the virus by contact, but it's still there. Hence the hand-washing and sanitizer thing. And it's true that a higher virus load exposure is morely likely to result in infection, but that's not absolute, either. Viruses can be wily things, sadly...hence, I think that Lisa's thread title is absolutely spot on.

[John K Jordan]

...The wife recently bought 1/2 dozen face shields from Amazon, they're the same ones I see on nurses a lot on TV, blue band that says 'face shield'-...

Another option to keep virus from the eyes is the eye shield that dentists often use. I first saw them in my dentist's office a few years ago and bought some right away for farm and shop use - won't protect the eyes from impact but help with irritants and pathogens. I wear one when I have to go into a store for some reason or visit a doctor's office where I might have to sit in a waiting room or may have to remove my mask temporarily.

This is one such eye shield. There are many others identical and some variations.
https://smile.amazon.com/Disposable-Dental-Shield-Safety-Glasses/dp/B087NKX6WW

(Pay no attention to bad reviews that say this type of eye shield is "cloudy" and difficult to see through - these people didn't notice the plastic shield has a protective film that must be removed. Or some who complain they are difficult or impossible to assemble.)

[Kev Williams]

This is the type the wife got.
446367
I like the foam seal above my eyes, it weighs nothing and when you remove the protective film ( :) ) it's perfectly transparent.

[Jim Becker]

Kev, just to be sure it's clear here in the thread, one must also wear a regular face mask with a face shield like that. The face shield primarily protects the eyes. The mask does the deed for the mouth/nose/respiration.

[Ole Anderson]

Kev, just to be sure it's clear here in the thread, one must also wear a regular face mask with a face shield like that. The face shield primarily protects the eyes. The mask does the deed for the mouth/nose/respiration.
Indeed Jim. I see too many wearing just the face shield.

[Tom M King]

Including NFL coaches, that are supposed to be wearing protection. I wish that people who set examples would be good examples.

[Roger Feeley]

Keep the stories coming folks. We all need a reminder from time to time. Also, this case casts some much needed doubt on the notion that masking and social distancing will reduce the initial viral load and, thus, make the case less severe by giving your extra time to mount a defense. The lesson here is that this virus is highly unpredictable. I will continue to take all precautions but, as we all know, it just no guarantee.

I would imagine that I will get a vaccine in the spring sometime. You can bet that I will be right there on day one to get stuck.

So help me, if it gets much worse, I'm going to break out my triton air supplied respirator. I have some non-woven polyester I have been using for mask filter inserts. I could beef up that bad boy. The only down side is that I would be outputting unfiltered air.

Two notes:
1. Not me in the picture.
2. The batteries gave out a long time ago. I modified it to use Milwaukee battery packs.
446379

[Roger Feeley]

Including NFL coaches, that are supposed to be wearing protection. I wish that people who set examples would be good examples.

Yeah, I'm a Chiefs fan and it seems like Andy Reid has something different every week. I can't imagine what the heartburn level is among those coaches. It's like COVID is the 12th man on the field. The team that is the most careful could very well have a real advantage.

[Andrew Joiner]

:eek:
Kev, just to be sure it's clear here in the thread, one must also wear a regular face mask with a face shield like that. The face shield primarily protects the eyes. The mask does the deed for the mouth/nose/respiration.
Thanks Jim. I'm sure Kev knows that. From his posts he seems super cautious. But, like you say for others who may just skim over the info, great point.

I'm detail oriented. I like to study the science behind this virus. I'm surprised by what my friends and family consider safe!

One example. I know about 50 people who attended weekly meetings at a local church until April. By mid April the face to face meetings stopped and went to Zoom. I thought Zoom would be terrible but quickly adapted and love it now. About 20 people felt the need to meet face to face and since June, when the church allowed it, meet in the church.

I've asked several people since June what it's like at the face to face meetings. One said " we go by the rules, it's safe". I said does everyone wear masks? He said" yes" I said really "well most do".
As it got colder I asked another person do you open windows and wear masks? She said "yes, but we take them off to drink coffee and close windows when it's too cold, but it feels real safe":eek:

I agree with this threads title. Even if your above average on your habits for protection there's risk. But please let's lower our risk as much as we can.

[Bill Carey]

Saddened to hear about your friends Lisa - hope they come thru it ok, with out any lingering effects. But given how insidious this virus is, I'm not surprised. We hear a lot about people who gather and spread/contract the disease, but we don't hear often enough about folks like your friends, who do everything right and still pay a steep price. It confounds me the number of folks who take no precautions, and are willing not only to put themselves at risk, but also others including family and strangers. And there seems to be no rhyme or reason to it: in the dollar store near me everyone masks up; in the gas station at the other end of town, no one does. Go figure. The only person who has been in our house in the last 11 months was the furnace repair guy, who wore a mask and was followed around by the LOML with a Lysol spray can, and my son who quarantined for 3 weeks before we picked him up. We still wipe everything down that comes into the house. In spite of all this, we know we could still get it. Very unsettling times we're in.

I have my yearly tests coming up in late Dec and early Jan and think I will cancel them until a vaccine is available. (and yes, I'll be one of the first in line). Not getting the blood tests, the chest x-rays or the pulmonary tests won't kill me but getting the virus surely might. And the hospital where I was supposed to go for the pulmonary test is currently a hot spot for the virus, so they moved the test to a different hosp. But I'm having a hard time convincing myself that moving to a different hosp will make a significant difference in the risk, even though the new location does not admit covid patients. There are so many asymptomatic folks wandering around that I make the assumption everyone has it. Those WW2 acronyms keep coming to mind: SNAFU and FUBAR.

As has been pointed out, do all the right things and you may be ok. Operative word being may. Stay safe folks.

[Jim Becker]

Thanks Jim. I'm sure Kev knows that. From his posts he seems super cautious. But, like you say for others who may just skim over the info, great point.

Ach...I just had to run to the market for a few things and there was actually an older employee that was wearing ONLY a face shield... And yes, I've messaged the management about it. It's another branch of the same organization my daughter works for and I know they have a mask mandate. This was a local store failure.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

I got it a month ago. Slight fever for 36 hours, cough worse than usual (I already have interstitial lung disease) I know where I got it. Mrs. is a nurse at the local hospital. We both figured we would get it eventually. Both of us have been taking vitamin D3, I have been drinking a pint of tonic water every day anyway for a few years already. Says what you want about quinine, I was already on it. She developed symptoms two days before I did. She has been taking care of corona virus patients since last fall. (there are several corona viruses in the US besides Covid 19.) I still can't smell anything, and my sense of taste is slowly returning. (Both common symptoms) Cases are up exponentially. Our local rehab hospital has just been converted overnight to a covid treatment hospital. Two additional units at the main hospital were converted to ICU wards. We have run out of ecmo's and about 65% of the ventilators are in use. She has been back to work for three weeks. Hopefully the vaccine works and is available soon. Although Mrs. says there is a major distribution problems because the two lead vaccines in the US, both require ultra cold storage (like 75 below zero) and few hospitals and almost no clinics have the equipment for such cold storage. Not to mention transportation capability requiring such storage. The vaccine from Astra Zeneca does not require cold storage apparently but is slightly less effective. In the mean time, several of our acquaintances have lost relatives in the past 3 weeks. My wife says it is heartbreaking to have a visitor come up to her floor. Visitors are only permitted when the patient is dying and then only during the last hours and only if fully suited with ppe'S.

As for the virus. Face shields are worthless, bandanas are worthless, neck gaiters and cloth masks are worthless. Cloth masks only prevent passage of about 5% of the droplets carrying the virus from passing through. That leaves 95% of the droplets floating around in the air. Although heavy droplets are the most common carrying method of infection, the fine droplets can float in the air for hours and spread 30 to 40 feet in less than a minute. That means as you walk up the aisle at Walmart or the grocery store, your are breathing the same air and droplets as the last 50 people through there. Makes ya feel real safe, eh? And yet nearly 80% of the transmission is between household members and visitors to the household. People from households that tend to crowd several people together in tighter quarters are at a higher risk. So right now, we are apparently paying the price for all the gatherings over Thanksgiving week end.

[Ron Citerone]

All signs are that covid is spiraling up presently. I base this on what I have read, info I get from family members who work in hospitals and from friends and relatives testing positive. All We can do is kick up our personal efforts as much as we can, but there are no guarantees. Hopefully the vaccines pan out as quickly as possible!

[David Bassett]

... they moved the test to a different hosp. But I'm having a hard time convincing myself that moving to a different hosp will make a significant difference in the risk, even though the new location does not admit covid patients. ...

Talk to your doctor about the safety before you decide.

Here, despite the other problems of large medical groups, they've used the affiliated status of our hospitals to manage risk. Everything COVID goes to the big one with the smaller one reserved for non-COVID cases. As far as I know you can't get into the non-COVID hospital without a negative test. (Certainly not into the wing I was in.) Plus they are still doing all the precautions of masks, shields, gloves, and hand washing & sanitization.

One of the under reported costs of this pandemic is the number of non-COVID cases that are untreated or under-treated due to the strain on the medical system. (E.g. one article reported IIRC 10% higher change a heart attack would be fatal this year nationwide. They attribute it to fewer resources, including fresh rested nurses & doctors, combined with a reluctance to seek treatment for fear of COVID.)

[David Bassett]

... So right now, we are apparently paying the price for all the gatherings over Thanksgiving week end.

Our health officials say they're only started to see the up tick due to that. It was climbing before Thanksgiving, and the numbers bounce up & down a little day-to-day, but the change in the overall slope has only just started. I'm afraid we owe a price we don't yet see. (And if December holiday gatherings are also widespread, with more infectors out there... it will just multiply. :( )

I'm sure CA has made national news with Newsome's shutdown order, which is triggered by lack of ICU bed availability. Several of our SF Bay Area counties have implemented that shutdown preemptively. As our county health official said, "you want to hit the brakes before you go off the cliff." We will be hiding at home and hoping the restrictions are enough, with enough compliance, they get this slowed down.

[Richard Baxter]

I am a millwright in the S.F. bay area. I travel to different shops every day. Half of these shops are not enforcing any type of safety protocol. Its just bizarre that some of these people don't get it. Not only are they putting themselves at risk but me also, some of these costumers I've known for over 20 years. I have decided to shut it down until the first of the year. I can't change their behavior so I will have to change mine. Most of my family on my fathers side except for my father perished from the Spanish flu of 1918, yeah I get this

[Doug Garson]

As for the virus. Face shields are worthless, bandanas are worthless, neck gaiters and cloth masks are worthless. Cloth masks only prevent passage of about 5% of the droplets carrying the virus from passing through.
What is your basis for these statements? According to the Mayo clinic "Can face masks help slow the spread of the coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2) that causes COVID-19? Yes, face masks combined with other preventive measures, such as frequent hand-washing and social distancing, help slow the spread of the virus."
"A cloth mask is intended to trap droplets that are released when the wearer talks, coughs or sneezes. Asking everyone to wear cloth masks can help reduce the spread of the virus by people who have COVID-19 but don't realize it."

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-mask/art-20485449

Nothing is 100% effective but to claim face shields and cloth madms are useless is wrong and dangerous. Yes their main benefit is to stop spread from the wearer to others they still provide some protection to the wearer. " health experts say the evidence is clear that masks can help prevent the spread of COVID-19 and that the more people wearing masks, the better."
https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent
"Multi-layer cloth masks block release of exhaled respiratory particles into the environment,3-6 along with the microorganisms these particles carry.7,8 Cloth masks not only effectively block most large droplets (i.e., 20-30 microns and larger)9 but they can also block the exhalation of fine droplets and particles (also often referred to as aerosols) smaller than 10 microns ;3,5 which increase in number with the volume of speech10-12 and specific types of phonation.13 Multi-layer cloth masks can both block up to 50-70% of these fine droplets and particles3,14 and limit the forward spread of those that are not captured.5,6,15,16 Upwards of 80% blockage has been achieved in human experiments that have measured blocking of all respiratory droplets,4 with cloth masks in some studies performing on par with surgical masks as barriers for source control.3,9,14
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/masking-science-sars-cov2.html

[John K Jordan]

...
As for the virus. Face shields are worthless, bandanas are worthless, neck gaiters and cloth masks are worthless.

Some of this is contrary to the advice of experts. Face shields will not eliminate but can minimize the risk of eye contact with heavy and fine droplets and are widely used by doctors and nurses. Well-fitting safety goggles may be better. Full-face industrial respirators with the right filters are the best I know of. Multi-layer cloth masks have been tested in laboratories and found effective. N95 masks and K95 masks have been tested and found to be effective if worn properly and seal well around the mouth and nose. Properly fitted industrial respirators have been found to be excellent but expensive, currently unavailable, and awkward to wear all day.

Laboratory tests show gaiters, bandanas, and single-layer cloth masks are not rated as efficient at stopping virus particles.

Families who gather indoors with visitors from outside the immediate family are taking a huge risk.
Those who travel with others in planes/trains/autos/subways, and walk the isles in Walmart are taking a huge risk.

I personally use two face masks around farm visitors, even outdoors and with good separation.

I read that plans are to use dry ice at -78C for distribution and short-term storage of vaccines that require -75C temperature.

JKJ

[Lisa Starr]

Just a quick update. He is still at home and improving, so likely will be fine in a few weeks. She is still in the hospital, but they finally got her in a room after spending 36+ hours parked in the hallway. She's on oxygen and holding steady, but no improvement yet.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4420971/ Double layer Cloth masks only stop 5% of particulate in the air. The droplets and virus are smaller than most "particulate." In addition, when moisture of an infected person dampens the area around the mouth, a cough or sneeze aerosolizes the contaminated moisture broadcasting it in even finer droplets where only 5% of those will be strained out by the next persons' mask. Mrs wears an n-95 and a face shield which is over her prescription safety glasses that seal around the eyes. Those who wear a face shield but no mask of any kind are just breathing in everything every body else has exhaled. Masks do indeed help-. "PROPER" masks help. cloth masks and bandanas are like wearing fishnets.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

People here wear face shields but no mask. They are breathing everything every one else has exhaled without filter. Not getting it in the eye, is not particularly helpful without something effective straining what is inhaled. There is an old curmudgeon here that wears a fishnet for a mask. The holes between the string are about a half inch. It is probably almost as effective as a double layer cloth mask that only strains 5% of particulate in the air passing through. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4420971/ That particulate being far larger than a aerosolized droplet containing virus at .5 microns 30 virus molecules could march side by side through the holes in the weave of most cloth masks.. .

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

A German study published a few weeks ago indicated 80% of new cases were likely contracted in the home from household members or visitors to the household. The result was Germany's lock down limiting gatherings to the members of no more then 2 households. We are into advent and the early Holidays Santa Lucia, St Nicholas, Tonight is or last night was Krampusnacht in much of central Europe., etc. which are big to do's in parts of Germany. We don't really celebrate much before Christmas eve like parts of Europe do.

[Jim Becker]

Perry, that article is from 2015. It's also focused on healthcare workers who generally are in a much more pathogen rich environment that mere mortals like us are. More recent studies and guidance backed by published testing show that properly fitted and designed cloth masks are surprisingly effective in providing protection to both others and the wearer, especially when others are also wearing appropriate masks. Bandanas, gaiters and other such things are much less effective. A multi-layer cloth mask, especially with a replaceable polypropene filter liner is a good choice. That's what the scientists and medical experts say.

There is just too much old information being cited when the real issue is some folks just don't want to wear a mask for whatever their personal reason happens to be. That's a subjective choice. Sadly.

[Doug Garson]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4420971/ Double layer Cloth masks only stop 5% of particulate in the air. The droplets and virus are smaller than most "particulate." In addition, when moisture of an infected person dampens the area around the mouth, a cough or sneeze aerosolizes the contaminated moisture broadcasting it in even finer droplets where only 5% of those will be strained out by the next persons' mask. Mrs wears an n-95 and a face shield which is over her prescription safety glasses that seal around the eyes. Those who wear a face shield but no mask of any kind are just breathing in everything every body else has exhaled. Masks do indeed help-. "PROPER" masks help. cloth masks and bandanas are like wearing fishnets.

The aim of the article you link (my bolding and underlining) is stated in the article which dates from 2015 pre Covid19 " The aim of this study was to compare the efficacy of cloth masks to medical masks in hospital healthcare workers (HCWs). The null hypothesis is that there is no difference between medical masks and cloth masks.", and the conclusion of the study was " This study is the first RCT of cloth masks, and the results caution against the use of cloth masks. This is an important finding to inform occupational health and safety. Moisture retention, reuse of cloth masks and poor filtration may result in increased risk of infection. Further research is needed to inform the widespread use of cloth masks globally. However, as a precautionary measure, cloth masks should not be recommended for HCWs, particularly in high-risk situations, and guidelines need to be updated."
And the study points out one of the weaknesses of the study "The control arm was ‘standard practice’, which comprised mask use in a high proportion of participants. As such (without a no-mask control), the finding of a much higher rate of infection in the cloth mask arm could be interpreted as harm caused by cloth masks, efficacy of medical masks, or most likely a combination of both."

That is a far cry from "Face shields are worthless, bandanas are worthless, neck gaiters and cloth masks are worthless." The references I quotes are much more current and refer to masks for the general population. They do not say that cloth masks are better than N95 masks but they are helpful in slowing the spread of the disease. Your 5% number is disputed by the study I linked, I didn't see it in the study you linked or did I miss it? Statements like yours gives anti maskers an excuse for ignoring the recommendations of every credible health care professional that I have heard from the CDC to Health Canada and WHO.

[Doug Garson]

Perry, that article is from 2015. It's also focused on healthcare workers who generally are in a much more pathogen rich environment that mere mortals like us are. More recent studies and guidance backed by published testing show that properly fitted and designed cloth masks are surprisingly effective in providing protection to both others and the wearer, especially when others are also wearing appropriate masks. Bandanas, gaiters and other such things are much less effective. A multi-layer cloth mask, especially with a replaceable polypropene filter liner is a good choice. That's what the scientists and medical experts say.

There is just too much old information being cited when the real issue is some folks just don't want to wear a mask for whatever their personal reason happens to be. That's a subjective choice. Sadly.
You were faster than me Jim but we share the same sentiment. However I would call it a reckless and dangerous choice and in some places even a criminal choice. The worst part about it is the person making the choice is not just putting themselves in danger, they are putting many other people in danger.

[Lisa Starr]

Jebediah -- Your bias is astounding. Neither of them had been to their doctors for more than a month prior to her contracting COVID. Since you know nothing about her pre-existing conditions, how can you be so sure the doctor's appointments were just 6-month checkups? She requires regular monitoring and adjustments to medications to stay alive!

[Andrew Joiner]

Jebediah -- Your bias is astounding. Neither of them had been to their doctors for more than a month prior to her contracting COVID. Since you know nothing about her pre-existing conditions, how can you be so sure the doctor's appointments were just 6-month checkups? She requires regular monitoring and adjustments to medications to stay alive!
Thank you for clearing that up Lisa. Thanks for supporting your friends. I'm praying for your friends and I hope this thread stays open.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

Again, double layer cloth masks only strain out 5% of all particulate in the air. They are worthless against respiratory viruses, because the viruses are so small. They won't even protect you from fine dust. It doesn't matter the main thrust of the study was in a hospital setting. In the hospital the masks are to protect the patient as much as the staff member. And you miss read what I wrote. I am not against masks. I am against ineffectual masks that do little to nothing other than as the CDC originally put it, raise a false sense of security. Yes if you think a mask than only strains 5% of what is breathed out through it, and then strains only 5% of what is breathed in through it, will protect you from something 30 times smaller than the holes in the weave, you are smoking some really good stuff. I have seen the idiotic recent studies that show a person coughing into a mask they just put on. What good does that do when the clerk at the store, having worn the mask for six hours, coughs and aerosolizes the virus infected gook in his mask? Wear a mask, yes. wear a mask that actually protects you, from the droplets that were coughed into the store air 30 minutes before you got there and 24 ft away. I don't wear anything but n-95's when I go out, the few times that I do go out. I also wear enclosed safety glasses. Did you also read the article which said that the cloth masks worn for hours on end actually help spread disease? With the dozens of people in our crowded stores, breathing and coughing through all kinds of single cloth bandanas worn for hours and face shields with no mask that spreads their droplets everywhere, going in wearing an ineffectual mask self destructive.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

The double layer cloth mask strains out only 5% of all particulates in the air. The study points out that ineffectual nature of wearing cloth masks for hours as some store customers and workers do. How does a face shield and no mask do anything to protect anyone. Did you leave your common sense at the door? it strains nothing breathed in or out. a cough simply spews droplets all around the sides of the face shield. A bandana is of loosely woven cloth, open at the bottom. Tell me how that does a better job at straining or keeping in particulates. We could differentiate the study by saying it was done in Australia where the little whirl pools in sinks go the other direction, but that is just as irrelevant as the fact that the study was pre-covid-19 or that it was in a hospital setting. It was done involving workers subjected to viruses while wearing cloth masks 8 to 12 hours a day. The straining of particulates doesn't change. The virus size in microns is still many times smaller then the weave of the cloth. cloth masks are ineffectual at best.

[Ronald Blue]

Lisa I'm keeping your friends in my thoughts and prayers. If I had any idea how hard this would hit me I'd have been fanatical with taking all the precautions. I feel like I have received great care here. Small local hospital but they haven't been passive in my treatment. Aggressively dosed me with remdesivir. 7 rounds of that. Two doses of convalescent plasma. A multitude of other treatments as well. My highest level oxygen infusion was 10 liter's per hour. Today I'm came off oxygen. When I came here one week ago my blood oxygen level was dropping below 90. Hopefully tomorrow I can be discharged. This is nasty stuff. There is no way of knowing how it will affect you until you get it. Stay safe in everyway possible.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

No you not. That piece of shiny Medicare sign up mail could have rubbed up against a virus carrying envelope while the mail carrier was making rounds. My wife laughs at the pre-cautions some people take. (A local woman got sick after eating raw celery she washed off with hand sanitizer.) Like the little old lady wearing gloves in the grocery store rubbed her eye while at the register putting her groceries on the conveyor and taking the gloves off to put the change from the cashier into her change purse. What is likely to be dirtier/more infected, the groceries every one else may have touched or the money? She then carried her bags to the car bare handed and I saw her lift a few items out of the bag with no gloves on. What's the sense in that?

[Doug Garson]

Glad to hear you are in favor of masks, still don't know where your 5% number comes from. Fyi the cloth mask I wear includes a nonwoven layer. Here is a quote from a University of California, San Francisco report
https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent

"But the strongest evidence in favor of masks come from studies of real-world scenarios. “The most important thing are the epidemiologic data,” said Rutherford. Because it would be unethical to assign people to not wear a mask during a pandemic, the epidemiological evidence has come from so-called “experiments of nature.”
A recent study published in Health Affairs (https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/10.1377/hlthaff.2020.00818), for example, compared the COVID-19 growth rate before and after mask mandates in 15 states and the District of Columbia. It found that mask mandates led to a slowdown in daily COVID-19 growth rate, which became more apparent over time. The first five days after a mandate, the daily growth rate slowed by 0.9 percentage-points compared to the five days prior to the mandate; at three weeks, the daily growth rate had slowed by 2 percentage-points.Another study (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/342198360_Association_of_country-wide_coronavirus_mortality_with_demographics_testi ng_lockdowns_and_public_wearing_of_masks_Update_Ju ne_15_2020) looked at coronavirus deaths across 198 countries and found that those with cultural norms or government policies favoring mask-wearing had lower death rates.
Two compelling case reports also suggest that masks can prevent transmission in high-risk scenarios, said Chin-Hong and Rutherford. In one case, a man flew from China to Toronto (https://www.cmaj.ca/content/192/15/E410) and subsequently tested positive for COVID-19. He had a dry cough and wore a mask on the flight, and all 25 people closest to him on the flight tested negative for COVID-19. In another case, in late May, two hair stylists in Missouri (https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/06/17/masks-salons-missouri/) had close contact with 140 clients while sick with COVID-19. Everyone wore a mask and none of the clients tested positive."

Here's another study that recommends cloth masks, just happens to be from my alma mater McMaster University "We found a total of 25 studies, advocated for mask use (https://doi.org/10.7326/M20-2567) and summarized our findings (https://doi.org/10.1016/j.mayocp.2020.07.020) in a peer-reviewed publication." It explains how a filter can remove particles that are smaller than the openings in the fabric.


https://brighterworld.mcmaster.ca/articles/covid-19-masks-faq-how-can-cloth-stop-a-tiny-virus-whats-the-best-fabric-do-they-protect-the-wearer/

[Bruce King]

There were 3 main problems from the start that got us off to a bad start and 2 of them are still going on. The first one was the unfortunate technical name of this virus associating it with the common cold. Millions of people still think it’s only affecting certain people. The second bad problem was the lack of masks that caused Fauci to initially say not to wear a mask. He did it only to hope what few masks we had went to the frontline workers. The 3rd problem I can’t mention on here but half the country knows what it was. I’m just the messenger.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

Here, we report on experiments assessing the efficacy of unvented KN95 respirators, vented N95 respirators, surgical masks, and homemade paper and cloth masks at reducing aerosol particle emission rates from breathing, speaking, and coughing by healthy individuals. Two key findings are that (i) the surgical masks, unvented KN95 respirators, and, likely, vented N95 respirators all substantially reduce the number of emitted particles, but that (ii) particle emission from homemade cloth masks—likely from shed fiber fragments—can substantially exceed emission when no mask is worn, a result that confounds assessment of their efficacy at blocking expiratory particle emission. Although no direct measurements of virus emission or infectivity were performed here, the results raise the possibility that shed fiber particulates from contaminated cotton masks might serve as sources of aerosolized fomites.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-72798-7.

[Kev Williams]

Again, double layer cloth masks only strain out 5% of all particulate in the air. They are worthless against respiratory viruses, because the viruses are so small....

Below is a link to a 9 page PDF download to do with the filtering efficiency of various cloth materials...

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwio6r7aj7vtAhUBOq0KHbbyC3wQFjACegQIBBAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fpubs.acs.org%2Fdoi%2Fpdf%2F10.10 21%2Facsnano.0c03252&usg=AOvVaw25DgNZcrUcwqDvD7Bo7pjq
(https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwio6r7aj7vtAhUBOq0KHbbyC3wQFjACegQIBBAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fpubs.acs.org%2Fdoi%2Fpdf%2F10.10 21%2Facsnano.0c03252&usg=AOvVaw25DgNZcrUcwqDvD7Bo7pjq)
Pretty complicated read, but here's a portion of page 6 that I took a screenshot of (the "300 nm" is the diameter sizes of fluid particles):

http://www.engraver1.com/stuff/maskeff6.jpg

Very interesting that many cloth materials have a higher efficiency than N95/surgical masks...

And below is a link to a webpage explaining particle sizes relative to moving thru masks, 'brownian motion' and electrostatic effects...

https://www.fast.ai/2020/06/26/particle-sizes/

(https://www.fast.ai/2020/06/26/particle-sizes/)With all due respect, there's more to this than a simple 'masks only stop 5% of particulates' explanation...

[Mel Fulks]

Thanks, but these are just numbers....the old TV cigarette info often showed cig filter stages, what materials were in each
stage, comparison drawings of other brands ,and testimonials from users about effectiveness in fighting "smoker's cough".
I'm not sure we will ever see such detailed full disclosure again. Today's smokers are deprived of scientfic stats ...by the
same people who say "follow the science". They really want us to...follow the leaders.

[Doug Garson]

OK Perry, I guess we can agree that not all studies come to the same conclusion but I still don't know where your 5% number came from and maybe I never will.

[Lisa Starr]

it is time for this thread to die a quiet death. My initial post has been turned into something it never was and the more recent posts are upsetting. I posted an update on my friends yesterday, if anyone noticed. Thank you to all those who took the post in the spirit it was offered and offered sympathies and well-wishes.