Price point for a good square

[John Strong]

Hi Everyone,

I've been working with a aluminum speed square, and some of my grandfathers old framing squares (which I can't imagine are still square given how many times i've personally seem them fall onto the concrete floor of our garage growing up)

I'm a little lost on how you evaluate if a square is square or not, without a true square to reference off of. Speaking of reference squares, I should probably get one that is (really really close to) square. How much do you really have to spend to get an accurate square? The $5 square with 3 stars probably isn't what I should use as a reference, but what should I be shelling out for accuracy? A simple engineer square should probably be what I'm looking for? What are the benefits to something crazy expensive from woodpecker? These look super cool, but are probably a bit excessive? https://bridgecitytools.com/products/ts-2v2-try-square

What are peoples go to squares? And the key to keeping them square?

Best,
John

[Gabriel Marusic]

I've been happy with this machinist square from Groz. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01D943QFO/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Also a few bucks cheaper now than what I paid for it.

[Frederick Skelly]

There are a lot of options and you will get a lot of good ideas from folks here. In general, the more they cost the more accurate they are likely to be. There is a big debate here on how accurate you really need for woodworking, but here's what works for me..

Lower cost options. If you are using home center tools, these will be an immediate upgrade for you without breaking the bank:
* I have a set of these engineer squares from Lee Valley: LINK (https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/marking-and-measuring/squares/32601-engineers-squares) and use them all the time.
* I also have a couple double squares made by PEC, that I bought as "blems" from Harry Epstein. LINK (https://www.harryepstein.com/6-pec-metric-double-square-2nd-0-150-mm-1.html)

More expensive options:
* Starrett makes a nice combo square for about $100. I have one.
* You already know about Woodpeckers. Those are nice, solid tools. I have one but don't notice any significant difference in how it performs. (However, there's no doubt in my mind that it IS square and will STAY square for my lifetime.)


This should also help you..... Google > how to check if your square is square < and several methods come up. You can start getting familar there.

[Doug Dawson]

Hi Everyone,

I've been working with a aluminum speed square, and some of my grandfathers old framing squares (which I can't imagine are still square given how many times i've personally seem them fall onto the concrete floor of our garage growing up)

I'm a little lost on how you evaluate if a square is square or not, without a true square to reference off of. Speaking of reference squares, I should probably get one that is (really really close to) square. How much do you really have to spend to get an accurate square? The $5 square with 3 stars probably isn't what I should use as a reference, but what should I be shelling out for accuracy? A simple engineer square should probably be what I'm looking for? What are the benefits to something crazy expensive from woodpecker? These look super cool, but are probably a bit excessive? https://bridgecitytools.com/products/ts-2v2-try-square

What are peoples go to squares? And the key to keeping them square?

Learn how to test the square you have. Use it to scribe a line, then flip it to re-scribe what you think is the same line. If they match to your satisfaction, then you’re good.

Assuming that you’re using a reference edge, of course.

[Frederick Skelly]

Learn how to test the square you have. Use it to scribe a line, then flip it to re-scribe what you think is the same line. If they match to your satisfaction, then you’re good.

Assuming that you’re using a reference edge, of course.

+1. This is the method I use. It will come up when you google > how to check if your square is square <

[Paul Ruud]

And remember to check both sides of the blade. The inside of my Empire square is bang on, but the outside is not.

[William Hodge]

My approach is to use the right square for what I'm doing.

When I build another wood shed, I use an old rusty combination square and an expendable framing square.

In the shop, I have Starrett squares for checking squareness of machined wood. It's expensive to set up, but getting the machines cutting accurately several times a day for 32 years has reduced the cost per use of the squares to almost nothing. If they just sat in a box, they would be costly, and a waste of money.

[Earl McLain]

Mr. Skelly mentioned the "double square" above. I got my first, and old 4" Starrett with a rule that is barely readable, as part of a tool lot purchase. Had it for about a year before i actually used it to strike a line one day--and for me it quickly became a tool i use all the time. As have the two additional Starretts and the 2 or 3 Pec's that have also been added. I get the most use out of the 4" size, the 6" not near as often, and the 12" rarely. I mention this only because i see Double Square rarely mentioned.
earl

[Jim Matthews]

http://imgur.com/gallery/76TXn8V

I follow William's approach : precision is relative to acceptable tolerances.

I use a cheapo 4" double square from PEC and an "adjustable" 9" square made by one of our own SMC members. For verification I use a Stainless steel Shinwa carpenter's square.

The last is really only useful for feeling the edges. (It's marked in a traditional Japanese scale.)

*****

Your sense of touch may be more useful in evaluating squareness than your sight. It's a subtle thing that I only recently began to trust. I'm good to feel a "ledge" about 4 thousandths of an inch.

I like the Shinwa brand as it resists rust.

Lee Valley is a reliable supplier of Crack for us addicts.
https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/marking-and-measuring/squares/44279-precision-double-square

[lowell holmes]

I was going to make the same suggestion, but you beat me to it. :)

[glenn bradley]

And remember to check both sides of the blade. The inside of my Empire square is bang on, but the outside is not.
In the 'rough work' arena I have two inexpensive framing squares corrected for inside and outside respectively and marked as such ;-)

I have a Starrett 12" combo that I like. Several PEC double squares for detail work. Focus on the blade treatment and how each finish will work for you in your use. A satin finish with black markings works best for me under shop lights. I will say the Groz from Rockler do not have the quality to match the price point (returned) but, Woodcraft, Lee Valley and others are OEM'd by PEC and have been high quality, reliable users. PEC badged versions are available from Harry J. Epstein Co. and others.

[Derek Cohen]

John, I am one of the crazy people who go weak at the knees when I see excellence in a marking tool (I just posted about such on the Hand Tool Forum!).

A Starrett 12'/300mm combo square is probably all one needs. Add in a 6"/150mm Starrett double square.

But who can resist (unless you look at the price) the wonder of a Chris Vester square? These are essentially machinist squares and will never lose their highly specced squareness ...

https://i.postimg.cc/RhrsgFS2/Vesperat-WIA3.jpg

And if you get one of these, then you must also get Chris' sliding bevel. Best in the world (no joke) ...

https://i.postimg.cc/NFqtRBWj/Vesperat-WIA2.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Ben Helmich]

If you’re using plywood (for example) make sure the edge you’re referencing is square. I was ready to throw my dads old square in the trash when I realized my track saw was cutting at a bevel. Depending on where the square lands on the bevel if will be off. Drove me nuts for a little while. Also, I found a woodpeckers knock off on Amazon that’s really nice. From South Korea, colored black. Can’t remember the name, but was much cheaper.

[Phillip Mitchell]

A lot of good points mentioned already. I have lots of squares that I use for different situations.

Cheaper combo and framing squares for most job site / rougher work where the tolerances and rougher conditions don’t justify bringing out the $$ squares and risking damaging them.

I’ve worked as a timber framer as well as a woodworker / carpenter, and I’ve found a handful of vintage steel framing squares from antique markets or otherwise used and have taken the time to true them with a punch and periodically check them and re-true them as needed. They are still useful in some larger scale woodworking tasks.

I have some engineer squares from Groz and Starrett that are very useful for machine setup mostly. Combination and double squares from Starrett. They are worth every penny and last for decades even under full time use. This is something that is worth buying once and crying once and then you know that it’s right. Flat rulers from 6” up to about 36-48” are also very useful to have around. Shinwa makes an excellent 12” ruler for a good price.

I know I will likely get some hate mail for this, but I’ve never seen the appeal of Woodpecker stuff. Seems vastly overpriced, gimmicky, and shiny so the YouTube / maker crowd can have something fancy to have hanging on the walls behind them in their content. I’d take Starrett or similar all day long and twice on Sunday.

One type of square that is probably my most used square for woodworking and also sees a lot of use in finish carpentry / fine trim work is the Veritas Precision Square from Lee Valley. I have 2 of the small ones which are 3”x6” and basically like a mini framing square. I’ve used the Large one as well from a past co-worker and it’s pretty useful for the same types of things only larger scale. I’ve found it to be extremely accurate and something that is never out of my reach when I’m in the shop. I’m sure some folks know about them, but I don’t see them mentioned as much as you would think.

[Mel Fulks]

I've worked with "old timers" who just expected to have to file a new square ...square. You keep checking it by
comparing "left profile" to "right profile". The old squares have a beefy thick corner,with arms tapering to thin. I like 'em
and endorse 'em !......without fees !!!
PS: talkin" framing squares only,not sliders !

[Rob Luter]

I have a selection with examples from Empire, Starrett, Mohawk, Stanley, and anonymous. The Empires are from the home center and the rest are from yard sales or antique malls. They are all super accurate, with the Starrett stuff leading the pack. That said, checking them with a knife line reveals almost no difference, and certainly more accurate than I can usually cut.

445891

[Jim Dwight]

I use plastic and aluminum speed squares in my shop - after checking them. I find the 12 inch more useful in the shop and the more typical 6 inch. I use engineers squares, inexpensive ones, too but mine are smaller so not useful for where I would use the 12 inch speed square. If I am crosscutting away from the shop I use a plywood square, I think it came from anderson plywood that is 18 inches on the two legs. I added a stop that can be removed so it works like a speed square. I also have a cheaper brand combination square, I think it is a General, that I use. It is square.

For tool setup or to check something like a combination square before you buy it, plastic drafting triangles are quite inexpensive and very accurate. I keep a couple in the shop and use them, mostly for machine setup.

I haven't purchased a woodpecker anything yet. I'm sure they are nice tools but they seem overpriced to me.

[Ray Newman]

Squares? I had – maybe still have -- a weakness for them. But a few years ago, I weeded the collection and now down to Starrett combination and double squares in various sizes. I did keep the Bridge City combination square and saddle squares because of the rosewood inserts.

Most reached for framing square is a Shinwa 24x16” from Lee Valley ----very robust square and accurate despite being dropped a few times. Against my better judgement I bought a Woodpecker’s one-time tool framing square 26x16” that I have grown to dislike. Just too weight in the 16” arm and it felt cumbersome the few time I use it.

Fellow Woodworkers have questioned my sanity about several things, especially for having so many squares. But there were a few projects where I utilized 2 or 3 as I dislike changing the head location on the rule only later needing to return it to original setting.

Good advice in previous posts. I'll add: buy the best you can afford, then spend a few dollars more. Well made and accurate tools will last a lifetime, keep their accuracy, and are a pleasure to use.

[johnny means]

I've never come across a task that couldn't be done with a sub $30 measuring or marking device. If budget is a thing, avoid the collector approach to tool acquisition. I enjoy having a few shiny toys, but consider them as personal indulgences rather than great leaps in functionality.

[Bill Dufour]

I bought a cheapo adjustable square at horrible freight. I wanted to buy one for myself and one for nephew.. they had 6-8 of the desired size. I rejected all but one. On many the line to read the angle was too wide and not really able to be read to one unit, much less split the unit on the scale. Others the blade or blade screw was too sticky.
Bil lD

[Jim Matthews]

...horrible freight...
Bil lD

I'm stealing that.

[Andrew Seemann]

I've never come across a task that couldn't be done with a sub $30 measuring or marking device. If budget is a thing, avoid the collector approach to tool acquisition. I enjoy having a few shiny toys, but consider them as personal indulgences rather than great leaps in functionality.

Despite owning several Starrett tools, I would have to agree. I'll catch flak for this, but if you are using a tool to mark something with a knife/pencil, or measure by eye, it doesn't need to be accurate to the thousandth, or even five thousandths. The main reason I have Starretts is that I like them and the satin chrome is easier to read.

That said, about 75% of my layout and measuring is done with a Stanley 16' tape measure, some old Stanley try squares, and a Starrett 414-1 steel rule, the wide stainless steel one with etched not scribed graduations. I like that one because I can actually see the d@mn thing. Those 32ths and 64ths on my combo squares and machinists rules have started to blur together a little bit as I have gotten up there in years.

[Frederick Skelly]

Those 32ths and 64ths on my combo squares and machinists rules have started to blur together.

+1. I've been buying rules that are graduated in 1/16's. My eye can gauge a 32nd from that, if needed.

[lowell holmes]

Go to Home Depot and Lowes.
You can fondle their squares and you will know the one to buy.

[David Bassett]

Go to Home Depot and Lowes.
You can fondle their squares and you will know the one to buy.

I don't know about Lowes, but Home Depot has their squares packaged so you can't check them in the store. (Without being a jerk and ripping open the package.)

I just grabbed the Milwaukee Trim & Rafter squares that Pop Wood recommended on their blog a while back. (They seem square after a quick check once I got them home.) Bright red, without a Woodpecker price :) (or fit & finish either.) Time will tell, but they seem like they'll be a good value.

[johnny means]

One of my favourite combo squares is from HF. It and it's case look suspiciously similar to a house brand one I bought at certain woodwork specialty store. For $12 it's a gem. I wish I had bought the entire lot, because I've never seen them there again.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Just buy what catches your eye, don't even think about what we all think about how much you should spend. A good square is just that, a bad one is not. Price makes no difference.

I personally seem to collect them, but you certainly shouldn't just because I do. If you do want to though, Starrett made/makes a lot of models, kind of like Stanley planes. Then there are the different types, and all the oddities in the types. Like I said, I don't recommend it. Ahh, I think I'll go try to figure that Chappell Hill out again...

[Alex Zeller]

Like others I have several. Everything from a 24" Starrett combination down to and old Stanley with an unknown brand rule. I also have a set of cheap Chinese machinist squares that are 30/60 and 45/90. They are great for setting up blade angle on the table saw. They probably aren't that accurate for metal work but for wood they are more than enough and were less than $20 for the set.

[Anuj Prateek]

Hi Everyone,

I've been working with a aluminum speed square, and some of my grandfathers old framing squares (which I can't imagine are still square given how many times i've personally seem them fall onto the concrete floor of our garage growing up)

I'm a little lost on how you evaluate if a square is square or not, without a true square to reference off of. Speaking of reference squares, I should probably get one that is (really really close to) square. How much do you really have to spend to get an accurate square? The $5 square with 3 stars probably isn't what I should use as a reference, but what should I be shelling out for accuracy? A simple engineer square should probably be what I'm looking for? What are the benefits to something crazy expensive from woodpecker? These look super cool, but are probably a bit excessive? https://bridgecitytools.com/products/ts-2v2-try-square

What are peoples go to squares? And the key to keeping them square?

Best,
John

I bought a few sizes (3", 6", 8", 10") of Kinex machinist square when I started. They all agree with each other and that's my test for squareness. These normally come out as reference or machine setup. Each of these square were in range $20-50.

Day to day, I like my Starrett combination square and double square. These again agree with Kinex square and each other so I believe these are square.

Edit:

Auto correct decided Kinex is Knipex.

https://www.kinexmeasuring.com/en/products/squares
(Have no affiliation with the company. Bought them from Amazon.)

[John Strong]

Again a ton of very helpful comments. Thanks everyone for their input.

[Scott Winners]

Good advice already here, I am just an echo.

1. How square can you really cut or shape once you have a perfect mark?

2. There are plenty of cheap tools out there more square than I can cut.

Derek Cohen I am not. He functions at a level I am not likely to achieve in this lifetime. He has talent, I am trying to build what skill I do have. My best square, long term, real life, has been an aluminum casting roofing square, a speed square. I bought it in the 1990s for 10 or 12 dollars. I have dropped it off several roofs, many of them second floor and one of them a third floor roof. I can still lay it on a factory plywood edge, make a knife mark, flip it, and make another knife mark more parallel to the first straighter than I can cut. My idea of caring for it is to set it gently on a concrete floor rather than dropping it from waist height. Over the course of decades in real life I am not happy with any of the wood insert squares I have purchased. I have three combination squares that have become junk combination parts with still accurate steel rules. Combination squares wear out. There should still be a good steel ruler in there, but they (the part that makes a square) wear out.

When I need a new square I go to Lowes-Depot, grab one of those 2x2 foot pieces with a factory edge showing and then head to the tool department with my marking knife to pick a new square. Often cheaper to buy a 4x8 sheet rather than a 2x2 offcut if you can tote it home. Someday if I become good enough I might invest in a square not from the home store, but it will make me nervous to not have a factory edge and a marking knife when picking the one I want.

[matt romanowski]

For me, the Starrett stuff is the best. It's a fine tool and is just nice to use compared to an iGauging or something else. I have a 4" and a 12" that I use all the time. Terrific rulers, good threads to tighten, etc. I also have a iGauging double square that is crude in comparison.

Put me in the Woodpeckers is overpriced and not great category. I used to run a machine shop. Any of their tools without assembly are at most $30 parts. And aluminum is not dimensionally stable like steel. But, I may get called a heretic and burned for this!

[Derek Cohen]

Sorry Scott - I guess I get carried away. :o

I've been building furniture for some decades now, and have upgraded many of these tools in recent years. The squares that have remained with me are a 12" Starrett combo and a 6" Starrett double square. I mentioned this early on in this thread. I also mentioned Chris Vester squares. Now I have an alternative to Chris' work - machinist squares. Seriously, if I was starting from scratch, I would want a 6-7" machinist square for most work, and a 4" square for joinery. It is possible to pick these up really cheaply. Even Groz make passable ones. The only criteria is that they are accurate. Do the flip test before laying out your money. I'd still add a 12" Starrett combo only. Cry once.

Make your own lay out square (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/LayOutSquare.html) ...


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/LayOutSquare_html_68ebc036.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/LayOutSquare_html_7ecc088f.jpg


I cannot resist, once again, get this square ... the Magic Square ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB0MBGiX8TQ&amp;ab_channel=ChrisWong

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Curt Harms]

I don't know about Lowes, but Home Depot has their squares packaged so you can't check them in the store. (Without being a jerk and ripping open the package.)


Yeah that stinks. I've bought framing squares by finding the flattest surface practical in the store and comparing squares back to back. When I find two that agree I buy one or both. I figure the odds of two squares having exactly complementary errors is pretty slim. When checking a square against a flat edge draw a line and flipping it, I draw two lines about one 1/16" apart. I find it pretty easy to see if the two lines are parallel or not, easier than one line overlaying the other.

[Jim Becker]

"Do I really need great accuracy in measuring tools? After all, I'm working in wood, not metal."

The answer is certainly subjective but I've come to appreciate having accurate tools for layout, even if my, um...execution...isn't always perfect. I'd rather screw something up because of my ineptitude than because my measuring tools made it impossible to at least attempt to achieve an accurate cut/joint/whatever. As some have pointed out, it's not always the price that counts...it's the specific tool. Johnny mentioned a combo square he got from HFT that apparently was dead on for $12. I bought some used Starrett products and they were also dead-on, even after I bought replacement scales for metric which is now my preference. And I'm sure that some folks have plunked down some big coin on tools that are supposed to be uber accurate but were disappointed because the specific tool they have in-hand wasn't quite there. So I would say pick your reasonable upper budget number, buy the "best" you can find within it and immediately test it when you receive it. If it's accurate, get to work. If it's not accurate, send it back and try something else.

[Bill Carey]

The Magic Square is one of my favorites.

Just counted them and I have 13 squares in the shop. Most used are the 12" Starrett, the 6" IGaging, the Woodpeckers 6" saddle square. And the Lee Valley Small Double Square gets a good work out when dovetailing.

[David Kumm]

Lambtoolworks makes a great square. For me an accurate larger and a smaller square are a necessity, regardless of working wood, not metal. A jointer fence not set at 90 will screw up my life. setting the crosscut fence on either a shaper or sliding saw needs to be very accurate or the flaw will multiply over 8' to something that causes problems and screws up efficiency. Cutting copes just slightly off will make your passage or even cabinet door out of square enough to give you fits. I've found I use Brian Lamb's square with most projects. Dave

[Andrew Pitonyak]

And remember to check both sides of the blade. The inside of my Empire square is bang on, but the outside is not.

OK Paul, that is what I call a reality check for me. Never thought to test both sides..... <sigh>.

[Scott Winners]

Sorry Scott - I guess I get carried away. :o

Regards from Perth

Derek

I don't know that exact smiley, please excuse me if I picked the wrong tangent. Never ever apologize for using your talents to their fullest. Mine aren't in woodworking, but I do sometimes in my shop ask myself what would Jim K do? What would Steven N do? and so on and so on, what would Derek C do? I find y'all as a group inspiring, not irritating.

[Alan Lightstone]

Still cracking up from that Magic Square, Derek. And wiping coffee off my screen.