Help with my next "apprentice:" Track Saw or SCMS

[Dan Grano]

This is my first post on the forum but I have been reading it for a while and want to thank you all for providing so much helpful information.

I am a beginner and I'm still setting up my shop to use hand tools primarily, with power tools mixed in to help with dimensioning lumber. I could use your advice on my next power tool purchase.

In terms of tools for dimensioning, right now I have a 14" band saw (which I use to rip and resaw), a bench top planer, and a circular saw with a guide rail (not my favorite thing to use), plus a decent complement of bench places (scrub, no. 7, LAJ, No. 4). I am in a 1-car garage and don't have room for a table saw.

I primarily plan on building furniture using solid hardwoods, with occasional use of sheet goods.

I recently watched the FWW tour of Vic Tesolin's shop (thus my "apprentice" reference) and saw he uses a track saw/Multi-function table to do cross cuts and other tasks, and also has a 14" band saw and a thickness planer. I was wondering about the benefits/downsides of this setup for hand tool-focused shops.

I'm torn between a couple of options:

1. Go the Tesolin route and add a tracksaw (I'd like one with a riving knife, so a Festool or Dewalt) plus a Multifunction-style table (I would probably build this using the Parf guide drilling system). The benefits seem to be cross-cutting, ripping/jointing board edges, breaking down the occasional sheet goods, and dust collection. The table could also double for assembly, so maybe that saves me some space. I know I may very well be missing some downsides.

2. Buy a miter saw (I've been looking at the Bosch glide due to capacity). Obviously this is a more specialized option, but would it suit my needs just as well, or better?

Thanks so much for your help. - Dan

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Dan and Welcome to the Creek.

My opinion on this is not based on any use of these.

My best help might be in asking which of these would allow crosscutting or ripping an 8' piece of sheet goods?

jtk

[Dan Grano]

Howdy Dan and Welcome to the Creek.

My opinion on this is not based on any use of these.

My best help might be in asking which of these would allow crosscutting or ripping an 8' piece of sheet goods?

jtk

Thank you so much, Jim. Cutting sheet goods is definitely the main benefit of the track saw over the miter saw. Even though I don't plan to use sheet goods very often, it might be nice to have in those times when I do, especially if the track saw will also handle cross cuts in solid lumber. A lot of the stuff I've researched on track saws emphasizes sheet goods (understandably) and mentions hardwoods more peripherally, so I want to ensure I'm not missing any important problems or limitations on solid stock.

[Gary Focht]

I can’t see much use for the SCMS. I rarely use mine, which I bought long before my emphasis on hand tools.

If you are cross cutting to dimension lumber a hand saw and saw bench works great.

Track saws are great for sheet goods.

[Tony Shea]

I highly recommend the track saw over the SCMS. The SCMS is very limited and really only does cross cuts. Even then the cross cuts aren't really super accurate from these construction grade saws. I have a SCMS in my shop and it basically just gets used for breaking down lumber and construction type work (framing, decking, etc).

I have the Festool TS55 and a CT Midi and really love them in my shop. I am in the process of building an outfeed table for the table saw that will second as a large MFT. It will have aluminum extrusions for aprons where I will mount the Dashboard's guide rail brackets for super accurate crosscuts in wide boards and plywood. I have been mostly a hand tool woodworker for the last 10 years but have been getting more and more into machinery. But this is more aimed at being able to build custom cabinetry for our new house. But the TS55 is also great for ripping and crosscuting solid wood as well. The dust collection is also amazing!

[Jim Matthews]

A stable bandsaw with an auxiliary table can cut an amazing amount of material, down to very narrow sections.

[Dan Grano]

A stable bandsaw with an auxiliary table can cut an amazing amount of material, down to very narrow sections.

Thank you, Jim. I've loved my bandsaw, and do use it to cross cut smaller pieces. This board helped me to understand how a bandsaw complements a hand tool shop and that's been a huge help for me.

[Dan Grano]

I highly recommend the track saw over the SCMS. The SCMS is very limited and really only does cross cuts. Even then the cross cuts aren't really super accurate from these construction grade saws. I have a SCMS in my shop and it basically just gets used for breaking down lumber and construction type work (framing, decking, etc).

I have the Festool TS55 and a CT Midi and really love them in my shop. I am in the process of building an outfeed table for the table saw that will second as a large MFT. It will have aluminum extrusions for aprons where I will mount the Dashboard's guide rail brackets for super accurate crosscuts in wide boards and plywood. I have been mostly a hand tool woodworker for the last 10 years but have been getting more and more into machinery. But this is more aimed at being able to build custom cabinetry for our new house. But the TS55 is also great for ripping and crosscuting solid wood as well. The dust collection is also amazing!

Thanks so much, Tony. Have you found the TS55 powerful enough for hardwoods? I've read some reviews saying it has plenty of power, and others saying it can bog down at times. I won't be cutting anything thicker than 8/4 (and only after milling, so well within the saw's cut depth).

[Ben Ellenberger]

I don’t have any power tools. I may get a band saw for big rips and re-sawing at some point. For cross-cuts that you will true up on a shooting board, a handsaw on a saw bench sounds much easier than rigging something up on a bandsaw.

if I was going to do a bunch of plywood cabinets, I might get a tracksaw, but otherwise I’m not sure what I’d use one for.

[Curt Putnam]

A couple years ago, I sold my table saw, Miter saw, and Jointer and bought a multi-function table for the track saw. I do not miss the jointer and the miter saw. I very much miss the table saw and will probably buy another.

Track saws and the MFT were invented for sheet goods.. Trying to supp[ort the track for small piece cuts requires so much fussing that it is generally just to cut with hand powerd saws.

I am going to suggest that you consider a quality jobsite table saw. For working with hardwoods, a table saw has much more versatility for your needs than either an SCMS or the MFT+Track saw.

[Steve Schlumpf]

Moved here from different forum and wanted to bump this to top to bring it to everyone's attention.

[Derek Cohen]

This is my first post on the forum but I have been reading it for a while and want to thank you all for providing so much helpful information.

I am a beginner and I'm still setting up my shop to use hand tools primarily, with power tools mixed in to help with dimensioning lumber. I could use your advice on my next power tool purchase.

In terms of tools for dimensioning, right now I have a 14" band saw (which I use to rip and resaw), a bench top planer, and a circular saw with a guide rail (not my favorite thing to use), plus a decent complement of bench places (scrub, no. 7, LAJ, No. 4). I am in a 1-car garage and don't have room for a table saw.

I primarily plan on building furniture using solid hardwoods, with occasional use of sheet goods.

I recently watched the FWW tour of Vic Tesolin's shop (thus my "apprentice" reference) and saw he uses a track saw/Multi-function table to do cross cuts and other tasks, and also has a 14" band saw and a thickness planer. I was wondering about the benefits/downsides of this setup for hand tool-focused shops.

I'm torn between a couple of options:

1. Go the Tesolin route and add a tracksaw (I'd like one with a riving knife, so a Festool or Dewalt) plus a Multifunction-style table (I would probably build this using the Parf guide drilling system). The benefits seem to be cross-cutting, ripping/jointing board edges, breaking down the occasional sheet goods, and dust collection. The table could also double for assembly, so maybe that saves me some space. I know I may very well be missing some downsides.

2. Buy a miter saw (I've been looking at the Bosch glide due to capacity). Obviously this is a more specialized option, but would it suit my needs just as well, or better?

Thanks so much for your help. - Dan

Dan, I do like the term, "apprentice" :) However, to be fair, machines are more than just apprentices. They offer a level of precision in their own right, which is important in certain applications. After about 20 years, I have finally decided to add a power tool and machine section to my website. While I love using handtools, and constantly recommend to powertool-only woodworkers that they are missing out, equally I believe that hand tool users are missing out if they view using power as a sacrilege.

I know Vic reasonably (he has visited my workshop in Oz a couple of times). He knows his way around machines and power tools, and I believe that the only reason he did not include them in his early workshop, was lack of space. He has a new workshop (third I know of) in a new home, and I believe that he is adding more power tools now.

I do not have a tracksaw (probably never will) and I do not have a SCMS (definitely never will). However, I have a sliding table saw, and this does all those things. Mine is a short stroke (Hammer K3), with a smaller footprint than the average contractor saw. I'd rather use this for ripping and crosscutting than a bandsaw. Still, not for everyone (and it is expensive when starting out).

A slider is very safe. All sorts of fixtures may be used for so many tasks. The one below is making repeated narrow rips ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/MagicDovetailMarkers_html_m305416b6.jpg

The feature that many are not aware of is that the quality of the cut is flawless (since the work moves past the blade, rather than the other way around. This minimises a wandering blade).


I added a Wixey digital gauge (intended for the tablesaw) for the bandsaw (I have one on the slider, and used left over parts for the bandsaw). I do not know if anyone else has been as crazy as me, but I love this! It makes not just for accurate re-sawing, but it makes it possible to quickly set up a repeatable cut ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Powered%20Tools%20and%20Machinery/WixeyDROForHammerBandsaw_html_141fff13.jpg

Link: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Powered%20Tools%20and%20Machinery/WixeyDROForHammerBandsaw.html

The other power machine - and the one which I consider indispensable to all woodshops - is a pillar drill press. The drill press is not just for drilling holes, but for shaping wood, sanding, turning, and morticing.

Lastly, the power machine for hand tool work I would not wish to be without is a bench grinder. I have two 8" half-speed grinders, one for hollow grinding with CBN wheels (80- and 180 grit), and the other with a higher stitched denim wheel for power buffing, and the other side a softer, lightly stitched linen wheel for the Unicorn profile. Power buffing restores an amazing edge to a chisel.

https://i.postimg.cc/8C8yTmmK/M4-2.jpg

If you want to save money and limit machines, get one half-speed and have an 180 grit CBN on one side and a white linen wheel on the other.


Regards from Perth

Derek

[Dan Grano]

Dan, I do like the term, "apprentice" :) However, to be fair, machines are more than just apprentices. They offer a level of precision in their own right, which is important in certain applications. After about 20 years, I have finally decided to add a power tool and machine section to my website. While I love using handtools, and constantly recommend to powertool-only woodworkers that they are missing out, equally I believe that hand tool users are missing out if they view using power as a sacrilege.

Thank you so much, Derek. This is how I find myself thinking about hand tools/power tools as I am just starting out. I'm drawn to both, though more to hand tools, and I'm certainly not concerned about fidelity to one approach vs another :). The advice that I've read (on this forum and elsewhere) about incorporating power and hand tools that has made sense to me is to think about what's enjoyable and what will create results I'm happy with. So far I have learned that I'd rather not do long rips with a hand saw, and that I don't mind (and actually enjoy) flattening faces and jointing edges with a no. 7. I also have a fairly significant neck injury to work around, and I'm still figuring out the work that will aggravate it. Reading the forums here at SMC, your site, Vic's writing, Jim Tolpin, etc. has accelerated my learning curve to be sure.

Thank you for the note on the power buffing wheel to restore an edge to a chisel. I have an 8" grinder and I'll look at adding this.

Your sliding table saw gives me yet another tool to lust after.

Finally, I appreciate your note on the drill press. Honestly, this should probably be my next power tool when I really think about it. I have an 8" press that I bought a while back to assist with building fly rods (another of my hobbies) but it's too small for what I want to do now. So a better drill press may be my next tool.

Thanks again! - Dan

[Dan Grano]

A couple years ago, I sold my table saw, Miter saw, and Jointer and bought a multi-function table for the track saw. I do not miss the jointer and the miter saw. I very much miss the table saw and will probably buy another.

Track saws and the MFT were invented for sheet goods.. Trying to supp[ort the track for small piece cuts requires so much fussing that it is generally just to cut with hand powerd saws.

I am going to suggest that you consider a quality jobsite table saw. For working with hardwoods, a table saw has much more versatility for your needs than either an SCMS or the MFT+Track saw.

Thank you, Curt. This is incredibly helpful, and addresses one of my hesitations with the track saw/MFT approach. Your advice on a good jobsite saw makes a lot of sense, and I find this a very appealing option.

[Jim Matthews]

I don’t have any power tools. I may get a band saw for big rips and re-sawing at some point. For cross-cuts that you will true up on a shooting board, a handsaw on a saw bench sounds much easier than rigging something up on a bandsaw.


I felt much the same up to a year ago.

Under 20" long, up to 2" thick - handsawing is plausible.
Longer, thicker stock just takes inordinate shop time and wears out arthritic hands.

A bandsaw liberates time for more interesting tasks.

[Ben Helmich]

Good radial arm saw. Does both.

[Roger Feeley]

Dan,
I would be wary of the Bosch Glide. My wife got me one a while back and the base had sagged in the middle. I laid a straightedge across the base and the middle was out some .030”. At one point, I had a senior Bosh tech in my house with two more saws and all three had the same problem. My saw went back and I still use my old Dewalt which is on the nose.

Since that time, I read about another problem with the glide. It seemed that the blade/motor was not lined up with the direction of travel. So, no matter what you did. The saw couldn’t make a square cut. The big problem was (according to the reviewer) that there was no way to adjust the alignment.

both of these things are easily discovered with simple tests.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

A couple years ago, I sold my table saw, Miter saw, and Jointer and bought a multi-function table for the track saw. I do not miss the jointer and the miter saw. I very much miss the table saw and will probably buy another.

Track saws and the MFT were invented for sheet goods.. Trying to supp[ort the track for small piece cuts requires so much fussing that it is generally just to cut with hand powerd saws.

I am going to suggest that you consider a quality jobsite table saw. For working with hardwoods, a table saw has much more versatility for your needs than either an SCMS or the MFT+Track saw.

Yep, and another thing that is never considered in this debate, cutting depth. You have to try pretty hard to find a tablesaw with a blade smaller than 10", but that T55 only has a 6 1/4" (120mm). That means your depth of cut is dramatically less with the tracksaw than the tablesaw. 1 15/16" is max on the T55, a 10" tablesaw will easily do 3" plus. I make a living using circular saws, and running out of depth of cut is a common problem with a circular saw.

Bandsaw is fine, if it's a big one and it has a decent table, but you will find that you will still wish it was bigger at times. I do, and my big one is a 36" machine.

As for SCMS, I would not be without one personally, they are nearly as useful as a tablesaw. There area a few loud naysayers that claim you can't get accuracy out of one, but I have 30 years of the opposite experience, in heavy use environments.

Question for OP, you mentioned a Bosch SCMS saw, why are you drawn to that saw?

[Richard Coers]

I do not have a tracksaw (probably never will) and I do not have a SCMS (definitely never will). However, I have a sliding table saw, and this does all those things. Mine is a short stroke (Hammer K3), with a smaller footprint than the average contractor saw. I'd rather use this for ripping and crosscutting than a bandsaw. Still, not for everyone (and it is expensive when starting out).

A slider is very safe. All sorts of fixtures may be used for so many tasks. The one below is making repeated narrow rips ...





Link: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Powered%20Tools%20and%20Machinery/WixeyDROForHammerBandsaw.html

The other power machine - and the one which I consider indispensable to all woodshops - is a pillar drill press. The drill press is not just for drilling holes, but for shaping wood, sanding, turning, and morticing.

Lastly, the power machine for hand tool work I would not wish to be without is a bench grinder. I have two 8" half-speed grinders, one for hollow grinding with CBN wheels (80- and 180 grit), and the other with a higher stitched denim wheel for power buffing, and the other side a softer, lightly stitched linen wheel for the Unicorn profile. Power buffing restores an amazing edge to a chisel.



If you want to save money and limit machines, get one half-speed and have an 180 grit CBN on one side and a white linen wheel on the other.

Derek

Curious how the slider has a smaller footprint than a contractors saw when the slider has to have room to move past the blade in both directions?

[Richard Coers]

Soon after I started woodworking in 1974, the Inca Universal and Inca Major table saws with a mortising attachment became the gold standard for furniture making in a small footprint shop. I didn't buy one then because it was too expensive, but even after all these years, I have a soft spot for them when the show up on the used market.

[Lisa Starr]

I'd toss my SCMS out the door of my shop without a thought, but wouldn't even remotely consider parting with my track saw. Even the best SCMS is hardly worth the space it takes up and the dusty mess it makes.

[Jim Dwight]

I have a DeWalt track saw and often use it on solid wood. I use it, for instance, to rip a glue ready edge on long boards for big cabinets. My jointer is small so I cannot easily get and edge ready on a board longer than about 5 feet. But the track saw does it super easy. The DeWalt blade is bigger than the smaller festool, 165mm versus 160mm, so the depth of cut increases to just over 2 inches. It will rip 2 inch hardwood, I've done it, but you may need a ripping blade. I've used the normal 48 tooth blade but sometimes it doesn't want to make the cut, the ripping blade is required. I like my DeWalt but blade changing is not it's strong suit, it is a somewhat complicated series of steps and parts of the mechanism filled with dust on mine and when I tapped it with a mallet a cast part broke. But it hardly affected the function at all and blade changes are actually easier now. I bet dust collection is also better on the Festool but I am happy with my DeWalt for the price. Even not considering price I would not want to drop back a couple amps on the motor or 5mm on the blade.

I also use my table saw a lot (PCS 1.75 with 36 inch fence) and I crosscut pieces up to about 8 inches on my Hitachi 12 inch non-slider CMS. I do not like the space required for the sliders nor do I like the flex in the arm which can affect accuracy. Bigger crosscuts I use the track saw. The track saw is as accurate as the CMS with my setup but it takes additional steps so it's simpler to use the CMS. I cross cut with long track dogs but had to modify some screws to work with the DeWalt track - just file a flat on two parallel edges of some washer head screws that fit the threads in the dogs. I use a fence instead of dogs for the board because my dog holes are not perfect, they were cut with a woodrave router base and pegboard. The fence indexes to the edge of the bench and has a screw for adjustment to get it square. It increases cross capacity too to use the fence. Another fence benefit is the stop. I prefer to cut to stops rather than marks on the board. I find it increases my accuracy. Track saws will do this fine but you have to make some jigs.

Two inch thickness capacity is a track saw limitation but I see no reason to use anything else on big boards within their capacity. MUCH easier to move the saw than some boards I've used.

[johnny means]

I can and have done entire jobs (carcasses, frame and panel doors, drawers) with nothing but a tracksaw and a router. The tracksaw is basically just a faster version of handsawing and thus can make most straight cuts with a little planning. Mitersaws on the other hand are limited to one function on a small scale.

[Dan Grano]

Question for OP, you mentioned a Bosch SCMS saw, why are you drawn to that saw?

I kept running into good reviews and the space saving with the glide arm was a consideration. I'm not locked into a specific saw though.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I kept running into good reviews and the space saving with the glide arm was a consideration. I'm not locked into a specific saw though.

Fair enough, before you pull the trigger on it though, may want to read some more reviews here. May be a good saw for you, but I personally think there are much better SCMS on the market.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I'd toss my SCMS out the door of my shop without a thought, but wouldn't even remotely consider parting with my track saw. Even the best SCMS is hardly worth the space it takes up and the dusty mess it makes.

Funny how polarizing this debate is. I'm the opposite, the track saws I've used have been not worth the hassle, but if I was starting out all over, a SCMS would be the second tool I bought.

I just made a 20 spacers each in 1/16" increments from 3/16" to 11/16th" thick. Yes it was for carpentry, not furniture making, but it took about ten mins. Wonder how long it would take with a track saw?

[Ralph Okonieski]

My TS55 is used primarily these days to get a straight edge on rough oak lumber. My slider is too short and bandsaw is only an underpowered 12 inch. The TS55 struggles on 8/4 lumber but will cut, just have to go slow. If going Festool, go up to the next model to get greater depth and power. I can not speak on the Dewalt track saw but others can perhaps.

The TS55 was not purchased for its current use, but was a step up in accuracy from an underpowered Craftsman table saw. After selling the Craftsman and getting a slider, the TS55 was re-purposed. I like it and would get another one (or maybe next model), so do not interpret my comment as not liking the saw.