Need help deciding on first machines to buy!?

[Jeremy Sims]

I'm a long time lurker first time poster here that's been stuck in decision purgatory for the last 6 months on what stationary machines to buy. I finally own a home with a dedicated workshop (20x20 double garage w/ an extra 6x6 walkway to the house door) after years of renting. I have a solid collection of hand tools that i've built up over the years since getting into this hobby but as far as "actual" power tools go I've only amassed a Bosch sliding miter saw W/ a Festool mini vac and Tormek T-8. I'm really interested/looking for J/P combo's, sliders (5'5 min), dust collection, bandsaw. Budget is maxed at $13k.

So far I've talked to Sam Blasco for a few minutes about a 5-1 combo but the 300 classic is just outside my range and I'm not sure if the lab 300p is worth 10k list on the sheet he gave me. I've also got a quote form Martin for a Robland HX310 Pro for around 7-8k depending on the options, and Felder has unfortunately been ghosting me the last few months. So right now I'm really considering either the Robland or getting a 16" J/P (fs41c) and a Table Saw, Bandsaw, and Dust collector from Harvey (I love bridge city tools and Harvey/BCT is having a huge thanksgiving sale this week). I feel like I could get all this for around 10k and then sell and upgrade the table saw at a later date without loosing much investment, since I dont really know anything or even find anything about the newer Robland or Harvey it makes me hesitant. I'm also not against used equipment but I would like to make a purchase in the next month since lead times at all companies seems to be a few months.

Anyway's, If you had a similar garage size and budget what would you do? Would love to get some input since I really don't have a whole lot of experience outside the hand tool department.

[Lisa Starr]

I'll give you the same advise I've given others. Figure out what you want to build and then choose equipment that best allows you to perform that type of work. I've been doing woodworking for at least 20 years and am just now getting a J/P Combo. I've done without a jointer all this time, but had a 15" planer. Was it convenient, no. Was it doable, yes. Rather than just buying everything you think you need, pick what you feel is most important and get that in your shop and start using it.

My shop is in a 24' x 24' building with the following: Table Saw with 60" fence, 12" Band saw, Floor Standing Drill press and soon to arrive J/P (These are more or less stationary). On mobility units 16/32 Belt sander, Spindle/Belt Sander and Compound Sliding Miter Saw. Of course I also have a bench and cabinets for storage and the DC.

Give thought to how the equipment will fit in your space and which, if any will be mobile. Thick about material storage. I'm having trouble imagining that you can place all the equipment in your space without some items being mobile. If you're proficient with Sketchup or another CAD system, layout your shop and play with the equipment layout. Remember to allow for clearances around the equipment and think about auxiliary things like benches, outfeed tables etc.

[roger wiegand]

For a very solid basic shop able to take on most any project I'd have the following (and actually have had it for a long time) :

used Delta Unisaw or PM 66 with 50" fence with a couple good new blades, $1200
used 8" jointer (Delta or PM), $600
used Delta/PM 13-15" planer, upgrade to Byrd head, $2000
used Floor standing drill press, upgrade to Albrecht keyless chuck, $600
used Delta 14" band saw with riser block, $600
used 3+HP dust collector and piping, upgrade to canister filters. $2000

That gets you to about $7000. I would add a very good workbench with vises that you can either buy or build (add $500-2000). I've added a Performax 19-38 sander, which I now use constantly, I also have a 3hp shaper with feeder that I don't use often, but got cheap with a lot of tooling and a disk/belt combo sander that is especially useful for some of the kind of work that I do, but certainly not essential. I have a floor standing hollow chisel mortiser that I use on every project, you will see in another current thread that many folks here think they are useless. Similarly I spent a fair amount of space on a miter saw station that I use constantly, every day. Others here tell me that is is impossible to make accurate cuts with it, and that it is suitable only for the roughest carpentry.

A couple years ago I replaced my jointer and planer with a FS41 J/P, and the added capacity is wonderful. I would love to have a bigger bandsaw at this point and am watching the ads for a deal. I don't have room in my shop for a slider, though I'd love to have one. I suspect if you do a tool and material handling layout of your space you won't have enough room either.

In any event your tool choice needs to be dictated by the kind of work that you do. I dedicate a lot of space and resource to a very nice lathe, that obviously is a more specialized direction.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Having started in a small shop and having many stops on the path to the current not small shop, I'd recommend what Lisa said. Buy tools that you need for projects you like to do. No need to invest in machines to process sheet goods if you aren't going to do that for example. Some of my best times were is a bare bones shop, just a tablesaw, jointer a good bench, and a few hand tools. I really enjoyed figuring out how to make do with what I had even though it wasn't the perfect tool for the job.

That being said, if you want help blowing 13K, I bet we can help! I'd recommend the used market, and based on what you've said, look for a couple solid used euro machines. A small slider is a good idea. Careful with full combo machines, you'll find that in a small shop you have to access all sides and they are a space hog. I have one, and I'd recommend separating the jointer/planer from the saw/shaper.

[Jim Becker]

I'm a believer in the combos for capacities and so forth and have been for a long time. But I also appreciate that my J/P is separate from my slider because that fits my personal workflow very nicely. Maybe talk to Sam about that kind of setup for your budget...

[Richard Coers]

I've found there is a long term issue with Minimax combination machines. The cost of electrical switches. Rather obscure I would agree, but when the rotary switch failed, I was quoted a price of $450. The original company that made the switch was bought out, and old stock is very scarce. I took the switch apart and it is just loaded with tiny little plastic parts that had become very brittle and a couple pieces were broken. I did a ton of research and found something pretty close on eBay. My switch is made of a stack of modules interconnected with a plastic stem, so my friend with a ton of machinery experience and I spent a day measuring current and reverse engineering the existing switch and wiring, and then he spent an afternoon reverse engineering the eBay switch, and we got it going for less than $40. My machine is 22 years old, and I guess $450 over 22 years isn't a game changer, but paying that kind of money for a switch is hard to take!

[ChrisA Edwards]

If that was my budget and I was starting again, my first four purchases in priority order would be

Jointer/Planer
Bandsaw
Dust Collector
Tablesaw.

I say this mostly because buying a good capacity jointer and planer brings you to the cost of a decent J/P combo and that'll dispose of $5-6K immediately.

I have a 14" bandsaw, but would go to an 18" if doing it again, so that would be around $2k-$3k.

About another $2-3K for a Oneida or Clearview.

That leaves the rest, or most of it for the table saw. I've been very satisfied with my Sawstop, although have spent an additional $1500 upgrading the fence and motor.

The jump from this table saw, to a slider, I just haven't been able to justify for my hobby level stuff, plus the space required is also an issue.

I bought a fairly cheap DC and it has worked well even when running my table saw and A3-31 at the same time. So I've struggled with justifying getting something more capable.

The other tools, I use a lot, that are quite expensive are mostly Festool products. And for each one of these, that hurt when I bought it, I would still buy again. My birthday is close to Christmas, so I often justify that kind of purchase by saying the tool covers both events as regards a gift from my wife and grown kids.

[Prashun Patel]

While i'd personally sometimes love a slider, the more I do this, the less use I have for a table saw. I still will always keep mine, but a small one on wheels is preferable. You seem to be proficient with hand tools, so some cross cuts and rips and joints you may (like me) find that in the long run they are more enjoyable and quicker by hand - SOMETIMES ;) So, a combo machine that centers around a table saw might be suboptimal.

Now, a BANDSAW and JP COMBO, for me, have become invaluable. I rip everything on the b-saw and joint it either by hand or on the jointer. Less dust, less danger of kickback. Again, as long as you're not production, then this is a doable thing. And you can always roll out a smaller tablesaw or track saw if necessary.

So, between your options, I'd vote for the Harvey separates.

Spend for wheels on everything. It seems expensive at first, but it's the best investment.

[Erik Loza]

...a BANDSAW and JP COMBO, for me, have become invaluable...

This ^^^ I've had the OP's exact conversation with about eleventy-billion customers over the years. For the weekend warrior looking to make the leap, in order of importance:

1.) Biggest bandsaw you can afford
2.) Jointer/planer
3.) Track saw or budget table saw
4.) Possibly an edge sander

To the OP, you should be able to get the first two in Euro design within your budget. I would NOT buy any jointer or planer that doesn't have a Tersa or a spiral cutterhead. You will 100% regret spending upwards of $10K for a combo machine and having to send knives out to be sharpened. Also, not sure who's your Felder rep is but if you truly are getting ghosted, I can can give you a direct desk line to anyone you need. Best of luck in your research.

Erik

[roger wiegand]

Prashun-- How big a band saw do you have? Do you outfit it with infeed and outfeed tables? An auxiliary fence? I'm thinking of the small table and short fence on my bandsaw and not imagining how you'd get a good clean, straight cut ripping anything over a couple feet long. I know that when I'm resawing longer boards it's a major construction project to set up all the supports and featherboards I need to try to keep the board where I want it.

[roger wiegand]

This ^^^ I've had the OP's exact conversation with about eleventy-billion customers over the years. For the weekend warrior looking to make the leap, in order of importance:
4.) Possibly an edge sander


OK, that's an eye opener. I've always thought of that as an extremely specialized tool used by kitchen cabinet shops and such. Can you explain its use in a general hobbyist level woodworking shop? Does it replace something else or provide a new capability? I've found a thickness sander to be incredibly useful in my work in just the last couple years-- much moreso than I thought it would be when I bought it. So I'm happy to learn about some new tool I absolutely have to have! Early on I worked in a shop that had one (at Palo Alto High School), but I never used it nor saw anyone else do so.

Just so I'm not confused, it's a long (10 ft) belt sander on edge that oscillates a giant sanding belt up and down relative to a table for making a flat face 90 deg to the table, like a jointer on its side but with sandpaper in place of blades?

[Bruce King]

With that nice budget you should get a tricked out router table.
You can always build one but having one early on really helps.

[Warren Lake]

what you need will depend on what you do. If you want to do everything you will need lots. Don'tt listen to Erik about not getting straight knives. That insults all the old italians and germans and brits real cabinetmakers ive been lucky enough to know over the years some spent 60 years or more on those machines. Good salesman statement though.

[Jim Matthews]

If most of your construction will be sheet goods, a vertical panel saw will save space in a garage.

I wouldn't move on anything until your workbench settles into its final location.

There's nothing worse than a workshop that requires you step outside to change your mind (or turn around, or manipulate a board longer than three feet...) IYKWIS

I just built a slider for my cheapo JET bandsaw.
It was an eye opener for speed and getting things done. A slider makes setup and square cuts a breeze.

[Jon Endres]

I've been a hobby woodworker for 40 of my 50 years, and I started out with a 1939 Craftsman 10" table saw, a Walker-Turner drill press, a Delta 4" jointer, a Delta 12" lunchbox planer, and a 10" Duro bandsaw. All but the planer inherited. I've gone through many changes over the years, buying some new but mostly used tools, and I know I could easily replace every power tool in my shop for $13k. Based on how much I use them, my four most important machines in the shop are my track saw, my jointer, my planer and my drill press. The tablesaw, bandsaw and everything else are occasional-use machines. If I were in your shoes, or doing it all over, I'd be looking at a Sawstop with a sliding table, a large (17") Euro-design bandsaw, a J/P combo and a Supermax drum sander. The biggest frustration for me is having something that won't fit through the planer, and I have a 15" Jet planer currently.

[Prashun Patel]

I have no auxiliary table, and I often just work off a straight line drawn on the board. Then I joint it straight.

This is way better for being able to get pieces in line with the grain.

It’s also less stressful to use a bandsaw on thick stock where bogging down and twisting can happen on a table saw.

[Scott Allen27]

I guess I have a different perspective than most here, as I was in the same place as you were awhile back.
I called and talked to Sam about a J/P and he happened to mention a 'scratch and dent' CU300 classic that they had in the warehouse. It appears it was a machine that was refused at shipment because the crate had been hit by something and some of the accessories/fences had spilled out. The crate wasn't tipped and the slider was not damaged.

I took the risk and bought it with no warrantee for literally almost the same price as a J/P, and its been just about the best decision I've made on any woodworking purchase.
I ended up getting the router spindle which I use ALL the time - don't let people tell you that the lower rpm will make it a no-go - just use the largest diameter bits you can for the job, larger diameter = faster at the cutting surface. It makes a wonderful router table.
The package also had the mortiser and I absolutely love it - unlimited flexibility on size of your mortises and I just make my own tenon stock.

I also work in a 2 car garage and I have the machine positioned so the backswing of the slider faces the door - and I have the outrigger moved down from the front of the slider just a bit so that I can use probably 6.5' of the slider without having to open the door of the garage. If I need the full 8'(which is rare), I just open the garage door.
I really do enjoy having the footprint of a combo machine if you are working in a standard garage - the quality you get for the space is unbeatable. I also would not be without a slider at this point - once you get used to it and build some functionality into it (Fritz and Franz mandatory) I literally do almost everything on the left side of the blade and the rip fence just becomes a stop. Much safer solution in my opinion than standing behind a blade.

I also have the S400P(MM16) and its been awesome as well - and those are really my only 2 machines other than a small sander and old benchtop drill press. I have started doing much more finishing with hand tools as I despise sanding , and I really enjoy it.

Also, and this may be relevant to you, I recently purchased the Harvey G700 and I absolutely love it. I was coming from a Harbor freight 2hp setup with a trashcan top separator so it was a huge step up.
I have very short runs only to my two machines, max distance is probably 15' and its more than adequate. Air quality is great , machine is not that loud at all (much quieter than what I was expecting), and the electronics/motor are pretty good for the price (Siemens).
If you are interested in it, I would sign up for the email blasts on the Harvey website and just wait for the flash sales. They will very frequently get the G700 down close to 2k and I've heard of it going down to $1500-$1700 range which is amazing if the collector works for you.
I got it mainly on form factor - fits underneath a work surface, rolls around really easily even though its hefty (450ish lbs.) and has great filtering. If you can get it at around 2K and have a small shop, I would recommend it.

Anyway, I am by no means a full time woodworker like some of these guys in the thread, and I would say they may know a lot more about what's best in general; I can only give you my take on it.

If it were *me* and knowing what I know now, and had a 13k budget, I would talk to Sam about the Lab300 combo machine + bandsaw and see what he can do. I did actually drive a couple hundred miles to look at a Lab300 that was for sale when I was looking and it seemed like a really decent machine. Definite Minimax quality, just in a smaller package.

All in all, if you want a compressed machinery footprint in a small space, a combo machine really makes sense - Mine has become not only my table saw, J/P etc, but its also my full time router table. I also gave away my Hitachi sliding miter saw to my Father in law because I really have very little use for it.

Erik also gives great advice on either going Tersa or spiral. Don't even think about anything else. I have a Tersa head on my CU300 and its just flat out awesome.

One last thing: I get where some other people in the thread are coming from with regards to cost; I will only say this. It's far more enjoyable to work with nice tools, than crappy tools. I've done both, and I can tell you that working with *nice* tools makes the journey that much more enjoyable.
If this is a hobby, and its what you do for fun, then why not buy nice tools? Life is too short and you have to ask yourself, 'How much is my time in the shop worth to me?'.

Hope this helps,
-Scott

[Jim Dwight]

I am also in the "buy the tools to fit what you want to do" camp instead of buying what to me are expensive tools and then deciding what to do with them. I build cabinets and furniture and need to do more kids toys. I use my track saw and PCS the most and routers + router table are also necessary as are hand held sanders. For furniture I buy rough sawn wood so my jointer and planner get exercised to get usable stock. My most recent major purchases (major for me) were a Festool 700 and a Jet steel frame 14 inch bandsaw. I may be done with major tools, I am pretty much out of space (shop is 14x24). My DC is a HF 2hp with a super dust deputy below it and discharging outside. Works.

My house has 4 bedrooms, all have furniture I've made but I have a few more pieces to make so that all the furniture in those rooms is stuff I made. My two kids don't have exclusively bedroom sets I've made but most of the bedroom furniture came out of one of my shops. We all eat on tables I made and sit on chairs I made when we eat. My house also has some cabinets from my shop but the kitchen is purchased. I did make one kitchen in a former house. I mention this to emphasize that I've made a lot of sawdust and usable furniture despite my use of cheaper more basic tools. It isn't that I don't like nice tools but I've concentrated on what will do the job that needs done and that has not required a slider or big combo planer/jointer (although I haven't completely ruled that out).

[Robert Engel]

Those types of sliding table saws have huge footprints, in a 20x20 shop it will be a major space hog. Not to mention overkill for a hobbyist ww'er.

You would be much further ahead with a SawStop and a track saw setup IMHO.

The Harvey DC is very expensive, I've seen them, not that familiar with them, other than the premium price. IMHO a good cyclone like Clear Vue will more than do the job at 1/2 the cost.

You have a good budget, my thinking is why tie it up in 2 or 3 machines, when you may be need to be thinking about other things like a drum sander, which I would venture to say is the ONE machine in my entire shop I probably value the most.

[Jacob Mac]

If it were me starting again, I think I would investigate foregoing the J/P and see if I could buy S3S lumber. Throw in a couple of hand planes for tweaking and build more and prep less. But that's not always possible.

Also, I have two Minimax tools. My bandsaw wouldn't start from the factory. It took months to get them to fix it. It ended up with the tech simply removing the safety switches. My JP has been nothing except frustrating. Once my bandsaw started working, it has been great.


That is just to say that I would look into warranties and after the sale service. Because my experience with Minimax hasn't been good. Reading this board I got the impression that jumping up to Minimax or Hammer would remove a lot of frustration with the machines, and then I could just be frustrated with my lack of talent. But that has not been the case.

[Mike Kees]

Not sure where you are located but there is a Minimax CU 300 smart on the classifieds here that is in Texas. I have bought and sold more tools than necessary to get to my dream shop. One thing stands out ,Euro equipment is where I have mostly ended up . I would go for the jointer/planer combo and a big bandsaw first. Use them and see where you go from there. My path has been all used for the bigger better stuff. Probably why it took so long, but when one is working with limited funds you have to find ways to stretch them. Wheeling and dealing is a way to do this.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I guess I have a different perspective than most here, as I was in the same place as you were awhile back.
I called and talked to Sam about a J/P and he happened to mention a 'scratch and dent' CU300 classic that they had in the warehouse. It appears it was a machine that was refused at shipment because the crate had been hit by something and some of the accessories/fences had spilled out. The crate wasn't tipped and the slider was not damaged.

All in all, if you want a compressed machinery footprint in a small space, a combo machine really makes sense - Mine has become not only my table saw, J/P etc, but its also my full time router table. I also gave away my Hitachi sliding miter saw to my Father in law because I really have very little use for it.



Hope this helps,
-Scott

Scott, I posted that I would split my combo machine up, so just wanted to clarify a bit after reading your post. I bought a Felder CF741 for similar reasons to yours for buying your CU300. It has been a fantastic machine, I have never regretted it. The reason I said I'd split mine up is that my serious hobby woodworking turned into a job, and the demands on that machine and others in my shop changed. Now instead of building a one project to completion, I often have multiples of several going on simultaneously. My projects are now predominantly custom millwork and cabinets, which we then install in houses we've built. The Felder's main usefulness in my shop is the sliding saw. Secondary is the shaper, followed by mortiser, planer, jointer. Things have to move quickly through the shop to maintain some semblance of profit, so setting up machines between functions is detrimental. Ideally you have dedicated setups per function, but I do not have enough machine between the Felder and all the rest for that, so there is some setup that happens. Switching from sliding saw to planer makes the sliding saw unusable for crosscutting as the table becomes to narrow. If the J/P was separate, it would allow me to not have to shut down the slider to use the planer. Sometimes I can plan through it, but there are times when it's just inconvenient and wastes time.

Back when it was solely a hobby machine, time in the shop was not the revenue stream, so having quality machines in a smaller footprint was more important than workflow. I also had a 500 sqft garage then. Shop is now pretty close to half an acre, so space saving is no longer high on the list.

[Derek Cohen]

....I finally own a home with a dedicated workshop (20x20 double garage w/ an extra 6x6 walkway to the house door) after years of renting. I have a solid collection of hand tools that i've built up over the years since getting into this hobby but as far as "actual" power tools go I've only amassed a Bosch sliding miter saw W/ a Festool mini vac and Tormek T-8. I'm really interested/looking for J/P combo's, sliders (5'5 min), dust collection, bandsaw. Budget is maxed at $13k.

.... around 10k ....

Anyway's, If you had a similar garage size and budget what would you do? Would love to get some input since I really don't have a whole lot of experience outside the hand tool department.

Jeremy, we probably have a lot in common as I am also an amateur, but some 30 years ahead of you in building up a workshop at home in half of a double garage. What I have may be what you are looking for (or at least similar to).

My workshop is quite eclectic since I like building a variety of things, although mostly furniture. Like you, I concentrated on hand tools when I started out, and today this stands me in good stead since they are the ones I turn to for shaping, joinery and finishing. I love the machines I have upgraded to in the past decade, and use the heck out of them, but my first love is my collection of hand planes, chisels, and hand saws.

I worked my way through disposable Taiwanese machines to my current set up. I do not aspire much beyond what I now have. These machines are such a pleasure to use, solid and dependable. I imagine around the top of your budget: Hammer K3 slider (1250 short stroke) with outfeed router table; Hammer A3-31 jointer-thickness/planer; Hammer N4400 bandsaw; Nova Voyager drill press, and Nova Saturn lathe.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Rod Sheridan]

I would buy the following

- Good cyclone, I've had an Oneida for almost 2 decades

- Jointer/planer, I have a Hammer A3-31

- combination short stroke slider/shaper. I have a Hammer B3 Winner, crosscuts a sheet of plywood, straight lines and rips rough material, has a scoring saw, an outrigger which mostly hangs on the wall until I need to cut something big. It also has a 4 speed, reversing, tilting spindle shaper, you can also mount router bits. This machine saves space and gives you two machines at a cost savings

- bandsaw, at least 17", useful for making veneer, joints such as bridle joints, ripping large sections or resaw, and if you have absolutely no imagination you could cut curves with it.

Regards, Rod.

[Scott Allen27]

I'm not sure you can get a Clearvue Cyclone for 1k can you?
The Harvey G700 is very often on sale for right around $2k , I got mine for $2100 (which to be honest isn't a great deal , I should have waited longer) - and I've heard from a dealer that they sometimes go down to near $1k depending on stock, demand etc. I got it mostly because I have single runs of very short distance, form factor and mobility. It is also a very well built machine that approaches dust collection in an entirely different way, probably no better or worse than a standard cyclone. It is also quite a bit quieter than any cyclone I've been around as well..if that matters to you.
I can only give my experience with it , but I've been impressed with it so far.


Those types of sliding table saws have huge footprints, in a 20x20 shop it will be a major space hog. Not to mention overkill for a hobbyist ww'er.

You would be much further ahead with a SawStop and a track saw setup IMHO.

The Harvey DC is very expensive, I've seen them, not that familiar with them, other than the premium price. IMHO a good cyclone like Clear Vue will more than do the job at 1/2 the cost.

You have a good budget, my thinking is why tie it up in 2 or 3 machines, when you may be need to be thinking about other things like a drum sander, which I would venture to say is the ONE machine in my entire shop I probably value the most.

[Wakahisa Shinta]

What are you going to build? Are you going to work with sheet goods, or solid wood, or both? For sheet goods, small shop, and a finite budget, then a good track saw and a small slider are excellent choices. I built full kitchens with a TS55 and a Hammer K3. Adding solid wood brings you to a jointer and planer, both are basic tools for a woodshop. Buying S3S or S4S lumber is expensive. Having your own jointer and planer allows you to buy 4/4, 6/4, 8/4, 12/4 rough lumber and dimension them to your needs. Occasionally, you might get a deal on rough lumber that you local lumber warehouse wants to get rid off at stupidly cheap price (600 bd ft 6/4 black cherry for $2/bdft).

Whatever you buy, budget for a DC. ClearVue 1800 is more than adequate for a hobby shop. I have one hooked up to a 24-in planner.

I would NOT buy a 5-function combo machine. The debate of cabinet saw vs slider is a tough one. I am in the slider camp. A J/P combo is tolerable. A saw-shaper combo is tolerable.

Personally, I would start with: a DC, J/P, bandsaw (resaw capable, SCM), and a tracksaw. Buy European. Look on the used market (woodweb.com, CL, here, auction sites if you are adventurous). I have seen a SCM S600p went for $3000 on CL. I agree that ripping using a bandsaw before going to the J/P is sometimes more enjoyable than a using a tablesaw.

If you don't have a router and router table, then go straight to a shaper. A small shaper is a whole lot of router, plus more. It is not as scary a machine as it appears to be and is much more capable than a router in a table. Tooling WILL cost more than the machine. You will want a power feeder, unless you do a lot of template works. Old shapers are all over CL.

Best of luck!

[Warren Lake]

combination machines were the main machine for many European cabinetmakers. The machines work solid wood. You can do five functions of solid on that and a bit of sheet but it wasn't the intention. The saw on the old combos were meant to rip heavy solid. The two old guys i knew best both had SCM combos and then a cabinet saw, one two cabinet saws one was for ripping and one for cross cut. They could build anything.

[Erik Loza]

OK, that's an eye opener. I've always thought of that as an extremely specialized tool used by kitchen cabinet shops and such. Can you explain its use in a general hobbyist level woodworking shop? Does it replace something else or provide a new capability? I've found a thickness sander to be incredibly useful in my work in just the last couple years-- much moreso than I thought it would be when I bought it. So I'm happy to learn about some new tool I absolutely have to have! Early on I worked in a shop that had one (at Palo Alto High School), but I never used it nor saw anyone else do so.

Just so I'm not confused, it's a long (10 ft) belt sander on edge that oscillates a giant sanding belt up and down relative to a table for making a flat face 90 deg to the table, like a jointer on its side but with sandpaper in place of blades?

Roger, I would say "new capability". Imagine a stroke sander, vertically. The platen is fixed and you apply pressure to the belt manually. More specifically, for edges. Honestly, I had zero experience with one prior to a year or so ago. I've sold a couple of industrial ones to shops in my area, for their sticks on faceframes, and we have sold quite a few of the Hammer units to hobbyists. I would characterize this machine as a handy time saver for the home shop. Great for sanding cutting boards, small glue-ups, little things that might be too tedious to do with an R/O sander or have a profiled edge or contour that does not lend itself to a drum sander. I don't feel like I'm explaining it correctly but maybe you get the idea. One of those "I never knew I needed it before but now that I have it, how did I get by for so long?" kind of deals.


Don'tt listen to Erik about not getting straight knives. That insults all the old italians and germans and brits real cabinetmakers ive been lucky enough to know over the years some spent 60 years or more on those machines. Good salesman statement though. LOL, Warren. You know, I do actually use a machine once in a while and believe this or not, I've sold more straight-knife Italian combo machines than anything. :D

Erik

[Jim Matthews]

If it were me starting again, I think I would investigate foregoing the J/P and see if I could buy S3S lumber. Throw in a couple of hand planes for tweaking and build more and prep less. But that's not always possible.



I also advocate this approach. Unless you're milling and drying your own lumber, this shifts the cost (and size) of industrial scale dimensioning to the lumberyard.

I have a combination Robland in my garage (16" bed) that was used twice in ten years. I still had to buy the lumber I ran through it.

[Jim Becker]

Personally, working with S3S or even just thicknessed material with rough edges would drive me bananas. I don't design or think in terms of 3/4" and 1/2", etc., for non-construction woodworking. The best thickness for material may very well be something entirely different to match the scale and proportion for a given project. I learned that a LONG time ago when I build Norm Abram's Shaker style wall clock. None of the material thickness requirements were common S3S thicknesses and it would have looked truly wonky using them. So for me, a J/P or separate tools is essential to the core of woodworking, but I acknowledge that it may not be as important for some folks. Having equivalent width capacity for flattening and thicknessing is also something that I've found to be important over the years, too, at least to me. Again, maybe not so much for some others.

The bottom line..."what do you want to do" has to help guide these machinery/tool choices.

[Mike Kees]

Guys we have done it again ,lost the OP after his first post.:D

[Jeremy Sims]

Guys we have done it again ,lost the OP after his first post.:D

Lol no I'm still here! I would like to thank everyone for all the suggestions though, I didn't expect to get so many responses and its been great having a few opinions to read each day. After talking to the wife about budget and stuff ive decided to get a full combo, just have to decide which one now. I figure since every machine has a lengthy lead time its not really a big deal if I go over budget a bit if it results in me not having to deal with selling and upgrading in the nearer future. I also probably should have said my first project planned is to build 5 klipsch thx clone speakers and a nice tv stand.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Jeremy, speaking of Klipsch, I have a pair of Lascala’s as the front mains in the living room. As you can tell Diann is a very understanding spouse.

Good luck on the shop, for me with a small shop, a J/P and a saw/shaper combo provided Ed the most functionality and capacity in the smallest space.....Rod.

[Jim Becker]

Lol no I'm still here! I would like to thank everyone for all the suggestions though, I didn't expect to get so many responses and its been great having a few opinions to read each day. After talking to the wife about budget and stuff ive decided to get a full combo, just have to decide which one now. I figure since every machine has a lengthy lead time its not really a big deal if I go over budget a bit if it results in me not having to deal with selling and upgrading in the nearer future. I also probably should have said my first project planned is to build 5 klipsch thx clone speakers and a nice tv stand.

I may have already mentioned this, but in a recent communication with Sam, he did mention that the configurations they typically stock here in the US will likely have shorter lead times than custom configurations, so if that didn't some up in your previous conversations, you may want to ask him which "combination combinations", as it were, are more likely to be available to you faster if you want to move forward. Whichever machine you do end up with, you'll really enjoy it.

[Ed Mitchell]

Following with interest, because I'm in a similar boat (touch more money but less space) -- hope the OP will keep us updated.
I'll be interested to hear more about the Robland combination tools -- if they are equal in quality to the Minimax / Hammer offerings, the price the OP was quoted sounds extremely attractive. Are parts and service for them readily available in the US?

[Jeremy Sims]

Hey Ed. I haven't pulled the trigger on the Robland yet but I'm pretty sure that's the route I'm going to go. I have all the price sheets on the combo's from Martin team (except HX 260) and the prices are extremely competitive vs Felder/Scm. They are also a lot more similar to Felder in regards to building up what you want vs SCM route. I would assume there 260 series probably competes well with scm's genius series but I dont really know as thats the only one I didnt look at. However they don't seem to offer anything that competes really well with the standard Lap 300p unless you want to give up a few things it offers for a decent savings. I will say if you're looking at the larger combos a pretty decked out NX 410 pro can be had for 13k or a cu 300c/C3 performer equivalent for 9-10k.

As far as service goes I've been getting a good response from the Martin side even over Thanksgiving week (i even got a response from the Belgium team when i put in for a catalog request).

[Warren Lake]

how heavy are machines these days, it is still each manufacturer has two or three lines?

[Jim Becker]

how heavy are machines these days, it is still each manufacturer has two or three lines?

For combos, it at least seems like the stratification currently is around size and features. I'd divide the SCM/Minimax offerings into two tiers since they have the small C series combos at the "lower" end and the 300 and 410 versions at the "stouter" end. The 300 labeled machined (for 300mm on the J/P section) have multiple feature setups with a range of pricing/features. The 410 machine is more "soup to nuts". Felder/Hammer has machines under both brand names and the Felder branded machines clearly are heavier and more full featured. I'm not familiar with the Robland offerings. Being under Martin's wing should breathe some new life to that brand here in the US.

[Warren Lake]

I think SCM has Minimax then several choices in their stuff up to Invincible. Not up on it, just seen some Minimax stuff at auctions then remember one woodwork show where the white stuff had a few levels before Invincible. Combos five function ones used to weight around 1,300 lbs maybe 1,280 or maybe it was a bit more

[Jim Becker]

I think SCM has Minimax then several choices in their stuff up to Invincible. Not up on it, just seen some Minimax stuff at auctions then remember one woodwork show where the white stuff had a few levels before Invincible. Combos five function ones used to weight around 1,300 lbs maybe 1,280 or maybe it was a bit more

Combos are all under the MiniMax brand name. Even the "small" ones are not super lightweight and the big CU410 units are not going to defy gravity in any way, shape or form. :)

[Warren Lake]

mini max stuff looks lighter from what ive seen at auctions, it wasnt the new white stuff. ILl look up some weights.

[Jim Becker]

mini max stuff looks lighter from what ive seen at auctions, it wasnt the new white stuff. ILl look up some weights.

White started in the early 2000s, AFAIK, or slightly before. Anything older will likely be yellow or green. The current brochure doesn't list the weights; just the capacities. The shipping weight for my S315WS slider was over 1500 lbs and my FS350 J/P weighs about 900. So I would expect that the CU300 series would be in the neighborhood of that combination, give or take. with the CU410 series a bit heavier because of the larger J/P capacities, etc.